Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Jim C on October 20, 2015, 07:19:23 PM
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So, I have lunch with a couple of friends, time to go, hop on the bike,
start up and take off as normal.
Driving for around 30 mins, and all of a sudden the bike stalls, engine
just...quit. Hit the starter, started right back up, but it DID leave a bad
taste in my mouth.
Driving for about 10 more mins, and it does the same thing...again. I am
not having a good feeling about this. Hit the starter, started back up and
I went back home (on my way anyway). So, I pull into my garage, and
take off my gear, and I hear this (what I perceive to be a moaning) sound
(what the heck is that, I say to my self). Very surreal (or maybe ethereal?)
I'm used to the ticks and tinks of a cooling engine, but this wasn't that.
Gremlins in my garage or maybe my gas tank? Unknown...
Anyhoo, anyone got some ideas to throw my way on what the heck that was?
Jim
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Moaning is usually just the tank vent valve to the EVAP canister. Heat soak from the engine raises temps in the tank after you shut it off and vapors push their way through the valve.
As for the stalling, just a swag, but check for something loose:
1. Kickstand? The stand itself or the safety switch? If either is loose vibration could cause it to cut the circuit.
2. Ignition Switch or connector loose? Jiggle keys/switch and wires/connectors with motor running and listen for any misses.
3. Ignition components (coil primary connectors, crankshaft position sensor). Same thing, wiggle wires/connectors with motor running listening for misses.
I'd start there... Of course could also be bad fuel or a blocked tank vent.
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My V7 (not II) moans all the time when it's turned off. I can go out to the garage quite a while after a ride and still hear it spouting off. Maybe should call it "Myrtle" :wink:
Haven't had it die any other time than when it's cold.
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Moaning is usually just the tank vent valve to the EVAP canister. Heat soak from the engine raises temps in the tank after you shut it off and vapors push their way through the valve.
As for the stalling, just a swag, but check for something loose:
1. Kickstand? The stand itself or the safety switch? If either is loose vibration could cause it to cut the circuit.
2. Ignition Switch or connector loose? Jiggle keys/switch and wires/connectors with motor running and listen for any misses.
3. Ignition components (coil primary connectors, crankshaft position sensor). Same thing, wiggle wires/connectors with motor running listening for misses.
I'd start there... Of course could also be bad fuel or a blocked tank vent.
Kind of on Kev's train here. My 2013 was cutting in and out randomly until I isolated the ignition switch as the culprit.
One of the leads had vibrated clean off it's post. (crappy soldiering). In the beginning it was just an irritating occasional blip. Within days it began to happen frequently. Finally: turn the steering head one way the bike ran; a few degrees the other and it stopped completely.
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Don't get me wrong I'm open to either.
It's Spark or Fuel.
I might be stuck in the past, back when ignition components were more suspect than fuel. And the mantra was "most fuel problems are actually ignition problems".
But in Pokey's defense, these days ignitions are so reliable a lot of people rightly chase the fuel system first.
I guess I'm just still reluctant because most people don't want to drain the tank as step two if the tank pressure isn't it.
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The groaning after a ride is normal, not an indication of a problem with the hoses or canister.
FWIW, mine only does it when the tank is low on gas and ambient temps are warm.
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Hmmm. My 2013 V7R (which I've had for 2 year) never moaned until after a ride home from work last week. It was even doing it an hour after I got home.
It hasn't done it again (only been a week though).
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Hmmm. My 2013 V7R (which I've had for 2 year) never moaned until after a ride home from work last week. It was even doing it an hour after I got home.
It hasn't done it again (only been a week though).
Maybe you just didn't hang around the garage when you got home to hear it previously.
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I think you have a gas tank venting problem. The groaning is air trying to get into the tank. It would also explain the bike stalling. If it happens again (or even now, if you want), take off the gas cap and see if it lets in a bunch of air.
Cause? It could be a pinched vent line, a bad check valve or something heinous with the evap cannister.
These are the components of the V7 II fuel vent system in their proper location (garage floor):
(http://imageshack.com/a/img901/6717/bcG62C.jpg)
Do you also piss in swimming pools?
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Hmmm. My 2013 V7R (which I've had for 2 year) never moaned until after a ride home from work last week. It was even doing it an hour after I got home.
It hasn't done it again (only been a week though).
They all do it from time to time. There's no real rhyme or reason it seems. Source: I'm surrounded by them daily and often hear them moaning. Usually it seems to happen when the bike has been moved or touched (not necessarily turned on or ridden).
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They all do it from time to time. There's no real rhyme or reason it seems. Source: I'm surrounded by them daily and often hear them moaning. Usually it seems to happen when the bike has been moved or touched (not necessarily turned on or ridden).
It's not a big mystery. The valve moans as air moves into the tank to equalize it's air pressure with the outside atmosphere as the air in the tank cools after a ride. If the tank is full, there's relatively little air inside and less air needs to move in to to equalize the pressure. If there's not much fuel in the tank, there's more air in there to contract on cooling, and relatively more outside air moves in, meaning that there's more moaning heard. If you are in the habit of filling the tank at the end of every ride, you might not even notice the small amount of moaning as the tank cools. On the other hand, if you park the bike with a nearly empty tank, the moaning will go on longer. Other factors that influence the temperature of the air in the tank will also affect the moaning duration.
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Only when that check valve fails. (uncalled for, btw)
Well, I apologize for the outburst. I grew up in a city (LA) that had high amounts of smog. We could rarely see the surrounding mountains and the air was dangerous to breathe. Much like present-day Beijing. Now the air in LA is much better, thanks in part to lower pollution from autos and such, including motorcycles. In the big scheme of things, motorcycles are probably responsible for only a small portion of air pollution. But what's the point of "improving" the bike to increase it's pollution? Especially when the device doesn't affect the performance of the bike, as is the case for properly working evaporative emission controls.
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There's the rub. Properly working, but very poorly designed. That check valve is in the vent line BEFORE the evap canister. The gas tank is not allowed to vent when the bike is not running. Not at all. Once you start the bike, the vacuum will open the vent line, but how much sense does it make to apply a vacuum to a vent line? You should be allowing air INTO the tank to displace the gas that is getting pumped out. Oh, there are small orifices and its not much vacuum, to be sure, but it's still stupid. I commute on my bike and it sits outside all day. When I go out at the end of the day to go home, I'll pop the fuel cap off and hear a big whoosh as the tank finally gets to vent. I believe the check valve is there to act as a tipover valve. Combining that with the evap system just doesn't work. Piaggio knows better, too. Aprillias are set up properly.
I don't think you understand how it works. The gas tank vents through the check valve, the canister, and (minus the fuel vapors which are trapped in the carbon) the canister outlet into the open air, whether the engine is running or not. When the engine is running, there'a a small bleed from the open air, through the canister (to recover the trapped fuel) , through the restrictor and into the engine intake, upstream from the throttle, so there's not much "vacuum" there. The small bleed into the engine intake doesn't significantly affect the pressure anywhere in the stream because of the much greater opening of the canister to the atmosphere. If you're hearing a big whoosh when you open your fuel filler, then there's an improper restriction somewhere in your system, maybe a crimped or collapsed hose. My '16 Stone doesn't do that, nor did my '13 Stone. Yes, the check valve also functions as a tipover valve. It's reassuring to know that in the event of a tipover, I won't have fuel gushing over my hot exhaust pipes.
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.....it's all moot now.
Except for your increased contribution to polluting the air we all breathe.
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Except for your increased contribution to polluting the air we all breathe.
Every time you exhale you increase the level of CO2, a greenhouse gas, in the atmosphere. Bitching about the removal of an evap canister, which probably traps less benzene per day than one cigarette emits, is just as absurd.
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Every time you exhale you increase the level of CO2, a greenhouse gas, in the atmosphere. Bitching about the removal of an evap canister, which probably traps less benzene per day than one cigarette emits, is just as absurd.
I have to chime in on this.
I don't have data on the particular levels of emissions a single EVAP system prevents.
But whenever you're talking about an action being harmless because it's "just one" person doing it or one bike you're completely missing the point. Same goes when you compare it to another source of emissions, especially one that is not preventable.
You have to ask yourself what the cumulative effect would be if everyone abandoned their EVAP systems (and I should add that the EU is going to be requiring them now too). What about vapor recovery nozzles at gas stations.
We're not talking about the effect of ONE bike, we're talking the effect of hundreds of millions of bikes, and cars, and pumps.
I have to believe it adds up.
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Every time you exhale you increase the level of CO2, a greenhouse gas, in the atmosphere. Bitching about the removal of an evap canister, which probably traps less benzene per day than one cigarette emits, is just as absurd.
Then why are they increasingly required in ever more places? Vast left-wing big-government conspiracy? Better get our tinfoil hats on.
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Very few people remove their evap systems. If one or two riders do, so what?
A far bigger problem is caused by my neighbors burning their fields and powering their farm equipment, cows farting into the atmosphere because we want McDonald's hamburgers, semis belching diesel smoke along the highways, me using my chainsaw or power mowers, etc.
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Who has got the biggest carbon footprint of us all?
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic047/volcano2_zpswosrqwjb.jpg)
Guess who!
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Who has got the biggest carbon footprint of us all?
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic047/volcano2_zpswosrqwjb.jpg)
Guess who!
And large consequences as well, including mass extinctions.
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Very few people remove their evap systems. If one or two riders do, so what?
A far bigger problem is caused by my neighbors burning their fields and powering their farm equipment, cows farting into the atmosphere because we want McDonald's hamburgers, semis belching diesel smoke along the highways, me using my chainsaw or power mowers, etc.
I've already answered that.
It doesn't have any bearing on the morality of the action.
There's also nothing special about those who choose to, except perhaps their arrogance and selfishness.
The fact that others pollute worse has nothing to do with the rightness or wrongness of another action. You were supposed to learn that in kindergarten. Remember, two wrongs don't make a right.
As for you chainsaw or mower, etc. it's all part of the big picture as we take steps towards reducing pollution.
But removing required systems or otherwise defeating/bypassing them slows progress or takes us backwards.
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I've already answered that.
It doesn't have any bearing on the morality of the action.
There's also nothing special about those who choose to, except perhaps their arrogance and selfishness.
The fact that others pollute worse has nothing to do with the rightness or wrongness of another action. You were supposed to learn that in kindergarten. Remember, two wrongs don't make a right.
As for you chainsaw or mower, etc. it's all part of the big picture as we take steps towards reducing pollution.
But removing required systems or otherwise defeating/bypassing them slows progress or takes us backwards.
KevM; your profile list... doesn't fit well with your line of argument.
Sell two and buy a Zero then pontificate. (Keep the Guzzi... cheap on fuel).
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KevM; your profile list... doesn't fit well with your line of argument.
Sell two and buy a Zero then pontificate. (Keep the Guzzi... cheap on fuel).
First, they're not all "mine".
Second they are all stock, complete with EVAP and cat-cons where installed from the factory.
I also work from home and take other steps to reduce my footprint.
But this wasn't about total carbon footprint so much as not purposely defeating existing systems designed to lesson the impact of the internal combustion engine.
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As long as it is functioning correctly I really can't understand the objection to the anti pollution canister system. We don't have it here and I don't want the added expense but I've owned three bikes with it on in the US and it had absolutely no detrimental effect on how the bikes ran. I tend to think a lot of the objections are pure bull-headedness. Having said that if it isn't working or is causing a problem I wouldn't fall over myself to replace or repair it.
Pete
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As long as it is functioning correctly I really can't understand the objection to the anti pollution canister system. We don't have it here and I don't want the added expense but I've owned three bikes with it on in the US and it had absolutely no detrimental effect on how the bikes ran. I tend to think a lot of the objections are pure bull-headedness. Having said that if it isn't working or is causing a problem I wouldn't fall over myself to replace or repair it.
Pete
That sounds quite reasonable.
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First, they're not all "mine".
Second they are all stock, complete with EVAP and cat-cons where installed from the factory.
I also work from home and take other steps to reduce my footprint.
But this wasn't about total carbon footprint so much as not purposely defeating existing systems designed to lesson the impact of the internal combustion engine.
Fair enough. (I'm envious of your working from home...)
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That sounds quite reasonable.
I too agree with Pete!
Jim's original trouble was touched upon in the second post. When the bike stalls, remove the cap and see if there is a rush of air INTO the tank. If so, then you have probably isolated the trouble into the venting system. Once the cause of the trouble has been found, it can be dealt with accordingly. (Replace stuck valve, un-pinch a hose, etc.)
Why don't we begin by helping the man with his trouble rather than having a debate on the state of pollution in the world. That, of course, could be its own thread which could probably go on almost as long as the Mr. Nevada thread did. :evil:
John Henry
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Why don't we begin by helping the man with his trouble rather than having a debate on the state of pollution in the world.
We did, you said it yourself, starting with the second post.
But that's never going to prevent the possibility of a tangent.
Besides there's not much more we can do till he checks back in, right?
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Fair enough. (I'm envious of your "working" from home...)
There, I fixed it. :evil:
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Okay, so I had a couple of awesome rides on Friday and Saturday
with absolutely no problem.
I checked the side stand switch connector (I tried to put the switch
connector tighter, but don't know if it made any difference). I jiggled
wires with the engine running, I checked the plugs (they looked good)
and double-checked that the plug wires were nice and snug on the plugs,
re-tightened the battery.
So far, no problems...maybe I did something to bring the stalling on myself,
I don't know. Bike running awesome!!
So, there's your update. Thanks for all the suggestions. :thumb:
Jim
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:grin:
There, I fixed it. :evil:
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Okay, so I had a couple of awesome rides on Friday and Saturday
with absolutely no problem.
I checked the side stand switch connector (I tried to put the switch
connector tighter, but don't know if it made any difference). I jiggled
wires with the engine running, I checked the plugs (they looked good)
and double-checked that the plug wires were nice and snug on the plugs,
re-tightened the battery.
So far, no problems...maybe I did something to bring the stalling on myself,
I don't know. Bike running awesome!!
So, there's your update. Thanks for all the suggestions. :thumb:
Jim
Thanks for the update, please keep us posted.
You're armed and ready should it occur again!
Kev
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I've been an air pollution control lawyer for almost a quarter century, mostly prosecuting big companies like Chevron, etc . . . , but I also work on the little stuff, like the gas station owner who doesn't keep his vapor recovery equipment in proper spec. I wish I had a nickel for every time I heard the "why don't you stop cows from farting" argument. The best science we have indicates that, basically, lots of people doing lots of little things adds up in a big way.
As motorcyclists, I think we can all feel good about being friendly towards the environment. You're generally getting better MPG than a car and, maybe more importantly, contributing very little to road congestion. Just don't kid yourself that when remove the evap canister or the cat converter that it's an environmentally neutral action.
I've changed pipes on most of the bikes I've owned, so I'm not taking a holier-than-thou position here. These days, I do commute on a Brammo Empulse. It's a nice feeling, and it does the job better than any ICE bike.