Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Xlratr on October 26, 2015, 02:28:27 PM
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Every two years you need to have your vehicle inspected here in Germany. Now my T3 is mechanically fine, but it isn't very pretty, and it has got a bit modified over the years. Today I went to the local inspection place at the appointed time, and as always I felt a little bit concerned that they might find something they wouldn't like (I think the look of my bike is a provocation to German testers!)
But it was worse than I thought. They failed it on not having a blue high beam control light (easy to fix), not having the original air filter set up (it has 2 k&n filters and nothing else, so a massive pain to fix), and on not having an automatic side stand retraction (it has the long California stand). They didn't like the exhausts either!
This will all take time and some money to fix and I've already realised that some airbox assembly parts are hard to come by. (@ Curtis Harper - you got an order from me today :-)
All in all, a frustrating day. But as they say, "a problem shared ...."
John
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sounds like a cool bike post up some pics!
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In Germany do bikes have to be "as equipped" when new or retro fitted to a standard?
I don't know that T3s had self retracting stands. At least on this side of the pond.
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:wink:
sounds like a cool bike post up some pics!
Not really, and certainly not compared to some of the beautiful old Guzzis I've seen on here! But it goes well. I'll take a pic tomorrow and post it.
John
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Sounds like they want to older stuff off the road.
Thank goodness in Pennsylvania anything over 30 years old you can opt for an "antique" tag. It requires a 1 time fee of around $100 and then the bike is exempt form the annual $18 registration fees an annual state inspection.
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In Germany do bikes have to be "as equipped" when new or retro fitted to a standard?
I don't know that T3s had self retracting stands. At least on this side of the pond.
Not necessarily "as equipped" but they have to fulfill the norms for the year. Most aftermarket parts need to be either recorded on the vehicle documents or have a certification for use on that vehicle supplied by the accessory manufacturer. The problem with the side stand is that it is not original. It's from a t3 California, probably 1975, without any "safety" mechanism. Unfortunately my t3 has a registration date of 1981, because although it's older than that, it was imported from Italy in that year. Bikes registered after 1976, need a self retracting stand, so it's a mess! :-(
Somehow it was ok for the last 34 years, but now it's not!
John
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Sounds like they want to older stuff off the road.
Thank goodness in Pennsylvania anything over 30 years old you can opt for an "antique" tag. It requires a 1 time fee of around $100 and then the bike is exempt form the annual $18 registration fees an annual state inspection.
Sounds wonderful!
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I have most of an original airbox that I'll give you, just pay the shipping.
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Sounds like they want to older stuff off the road.
Thank goodness in Pennsylvania anything over 30 years old you can opt for an "antique" tag. It requires a 1 time fee of around $100 and then the bike is exempt form the annual $18 registration fees an annual state inspection.
In Maryland, it's called a "Historic" tag and anything 20+ years old is eligible, $51 for tags for 2 years, no inspection ever.
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I have most of an original airbox that I'll give you, just pay the shipping.
Thanks Charlie, that's very kind. Actually I spent all afternoon googling part numbers and I think I managed to order them all already. If something falls through or ends up being out of stock, I'll get back to you on your offer. Thanks again!
John
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Tell them it's an ex cop bike and those mods were for performance and rider safety :thumb: :police:
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sounds like a cool bike post up some pics!
I promised a pic, so here you go. A bit rough, but like I said, she runs well. Please don't flame me for the taped headers! :-)
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t505/Xlratr/Mobile%20Uploads/0049CB5C-7AE7-46E6-89CA-7A8C3D122396.jpg)
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t505/Xlratr/Mobile%20Uploads/D30B6048-8E77-4F1F-B05A-CB6D147CA9DC.jpg)
The observant ones will notice the "micro switch" added to the side stand. I wired that into the starter relay ground, so it won't start with the side stand down. I didn't want it linked to the ignition. Of course I could put the side stand down after starting and ride off, but I hope this satisfies the inspectors.
Next step is to remove those ugly k&n filters and then fill that hole in the frame with a nice original airbox! (Sarcasm!). Oh yeah, the mirror is too small. Forgot that. Need to go shopping for a nice big mirror! (More sarcasm!).
Think I'll move to Pennsylvania!
John
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I guess The German definition of 'rough' is a bit more critical than the American definition. I like it! (except for the wrapped pipes :grin:)
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Every now and again you can bump into this kind of thing when getting your 'MOT' Test in the UK....
Sometimes, the most pragmatic answer is simply to take the bike somewhere else for the test.
For what it worth, my T3 would also fail on most of those 'issues' .
eib
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Every now and again you can bump into this kind of thing when getting your 'MOT' Test in the UK....
Sometimes, the most pragmatic answer is simply to take the bike somewhere else for the test.
For what it worth, my T3 would also fail on most of those 'issues' .
eib
That's exactly what I did. The list of fail items at the second place was longer! :-(
In Germany there are vehicle inspection centres that do nothing else, unlike the U.K. where garages can do an MOT. So there aren't many to choose from.
John
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I guess The German definition of 'rough' is a bit more critical than the American definition. I like it! (except for the wrapped pipes :grin:)
Well thanks, but really, I've seen some gorgeous bikes on here, especially some loops. Compared to those, this is rough. But I still like her. :-) (pictures sometimes look better than the reality!)
John
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It is how they get you to buy a new Bum W.
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Think I'll move to Pennsylvania!
John
That's been one solution that's been in place for 250 years or so, including the Weimers, Klines, and Selz families that were my precursors .... !
Lannis
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I do like your T3. And I understand your problems. Germany has always been a bit 'tight' in regulations, but, with unlimited speeds on the autobahns I sometimes appreciated it. And, we who were stationed there could get some really good deals on cars that would not pass the inspection test, but, were fine for in the states :)
Unless the air filter is an emissions thing, I don't understand that part failing the inspection.
Hope it gets back in shape ok.
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Sounds like a bit of "retrospective" legislation which you'd think was unworkable
Anyway, how the hell would he know what was or wasn't on the bike in the 70s which is all you could reasonably expect to be on it now.
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I do like your T3. And I understand your problems. Germany has always been a bit 'tight' in regulations, but, with unlimited speeds on the autobahns I sometimes appreciated it. And, we who were stationed there could get some really good deals on cars that would not pass the inspection test, but, were fine for in the states :)
Unless the air filter is an emissions thing, I don't understand that part failing the inspection.
Hope it gets back in shape ok.
As I pull into my inspection garage, I flash my high-beam, beep my horn, and by that time they've already got the sticker peeled off out of their little book and finishing the paperwork. They'll make sure the brake light comes on (one brake or two, they don't care) and that there's no cord showing on the tires, and we're done.
Air filters? Mirror size? SIDESTAND SPRING ffs? They don't even look to see if it has a sidestand.
Even the State has come to realize that a vanishingly small fraction of injuries and fatalities on the road are a result of non-functioning equipment, and I think we're headed to no inspection at all in Virginia before long ....
Lannis
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As I pull into my inspection garage, I flash my high-beam, beep my horn, and by that time they've already got the sticker peeled off out of their little book and finishing the paperwork. They'll make sure the brake light comes on (one brake or two, they don't care) and that there's no cord showing on the tires, and we're done.
Air filters? Mirror size? SIDESTAND SPRING ffs? They don't even look to see if it has a sidestand.
Even the State has come to realize that a vanishingly small fraction of injuries and fatalities on the road are a result of non-functioning equipment, and I think we're headed to no inspection at all in Virginia before long ....
Lannis
PA has a long laundry list of things that are supposed to be done for a state inspection process including a test ride. For the $20 to $40 (State gets around $5 of that or the sticker) most shops charge it it a loosing proposition to follow the list to a tee. Most do like the shop you go too..... Beep, blink, brake light, tires look okay, brake pads have a bit of mater left on them....slap on a sticker.
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Heck, you guys need to move out here. There is no safety inspection. When I registered mine they looked at the frame serial number to make sure it matched the title. That's it.
PS when I was in NY the inspection depended on the shop. The dealers would flunk you for just about anything, hoping that you would tell them to just fix it, thus getting them more business.
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NICE BIKE !
I like it, [Xlratr].
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PA has a long laundry list of things that are supposed to be done for a state inspection process including a test ride. For the $20 to $40 (State gets around $5 of that or the sticker) most shops charge it it a loosing proposition to follow the list to a tee. Most do like the shop you go too..... Beep, blink, brake light, tires look okay, brake pads have a bit of mater left on them....slap on a sticker.
This county of NC is even more so... no emissions inspection for any vehicle, and the safety inspection fee is $14. I just watched the inspector who did my Mille check all the boxes without even looking at the bike. He told me that he knows me well enough to know I wouldn't ride a motorcycle that didn't have all its parts working properly. I had to appreciate that. :grin:
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I got the "approved" mirror mounted, and the side stand switch is installed. The inspector didn't like my "modified" Lafranconis (there wasn't much left inside them), so I got a pair of Mistral silencers in stainless steel. I have to say, they're very nicely made, and they sound wonderful!!! And I have a piece of paper with a number on it that says they're ok!
Next step airbox, when the parts arrive.
John
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t505/Xlratr/Mobile%20Uploads/E064052C-5367-4C4F-82A9-528DB222E27F.jpg)
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I know it's moot since you're already in the process of the 'upgrades' but for discussion's sake, what are the ramifications of simply not getting the bike inspected in Deutschland?
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I like it. I thought those self-retracting sidestands were dangerous.
Interesting front fender, and you can get away with only one mirror and those tiny turn signals ( can't even see any in the back)?
Rich A
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John, I too have a shitload of old Tonti stuff hanging about in the 'Mountain of Munt' I cam probably even dig out a side stand if you have problems. Let me know if I can help.
Pete
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Perhaps you can leave everything as is and put a temporary sticker on the tank that says "BMW" , bet they let it fly through.
If that doesn't work, try one that has a big "VW" on it. One of those should get you a pass.
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State of Wisconsin has no inspections,no emission testing....zip,nada,nothing like that. You can get collector plates for motorcycles 20+ years old. A one time fee of 73 dollars for as long as you own it.
Nice ride OP.
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:copcar:
I know it's moot since you're already in the process of the 'upgrades' but for discussion's sake, what are the ramifications of simply not getting the bike inspected in Deutschland?
Insurance voided, very large fine, loss of licence. Not a possibility I'm afraid.
John
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I like it. I thought those self-retracting sidestands were dangerous.
Interesting front fender, and you can get away with only one mirror and those tiny turn signals ( can't even see any in the back)?
Rich A
It's just the standard fender, moved back a bit. One mirror is ok on pre 1990 bikes. The turn signals are allowed, because they have an "EC" type approval on them. It's amazing how tiny some of them are these days thanks to LED s. The rear ones are mounted close to the suspension.
John
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John, I too have a shitload of old Tonti stuff hanging about in the 'Mountain of Munt' I cam probably even dig out a side stand if you have problems. Let me know if I can help.
Pete
Thanks very much for the offer Pete. I think I have everything I need in transport, although when I look at where the carbs are pointing and then look at the parts in the diagram, I can't really imagine it will fit together. I'll be wiser when the stuff arrives, and then I may get back to you on your offer, or at least with some questions.
John
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Some funny responses. I don't think that since Germany is part of the Euro Econoc. Union that their laws for registration/safety/titles can be bypassed by going to another country. It's not like going from one state to another in the U.S.. One of the things that could have been done is to take the bike with the oem stuff on it for the inspection. Rolling in with the bike the way it's set up starts to set off violation markers for the inspector to look for. As a former inspector, I'd start looking at the obvious cues first.
We would compare legal requirements vs. oem and Euro requirements. Germany, not too surprising is stricter. If memory serves me correct it went down to oem tires. The ease up to comparable tires of the same period.
Don't know if it's still the same but I don't think that it has changed. Only tire shops were allowed to install tires on bikes and they had to be oem. No such thing as wider or bigger.
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One of the things that could have been done is to take the bike with the oem stuff on it for the inspection. Rolling in with the bike the way it's set up starts to set off violation markers for the inspector to look for. As a former inspector, I'd start looking at the obvious cues first.
The bike is mechanically very sound and all brake and suspension components are excellent. But as you indicated, there's something about the bike that inspectors don't like. But I don't have a lot of the OEM equipment to just bolt on for the inspection. That's what I'm busy sourcing now.
There was a period when not only the size of tyre, but also the manufacturer and type was indicated in the vehicle documents. You HAD to have that tyre, or one where the manufacturer certified that it was safe to use on your vehicle. Luckily the T3 precedes that time, and that law no longer applies to new bikes (one advantage of European legislation trumping German law!). But when I had the Quota, my choice of tyres was VERY limited.
John
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The bike is mechanically very sound and all brake and suspension components are excellent. But as you indicated, there's something about the bike that inspectors don't like. But I don't have a lot of the OEM equipment to just bolt on for the inspection. That's what I'm busy sourcing now.
There was a period when not only the size of tyre, but also the manufacturer and type was indicated in the vehicle documents. You HAD to have that tyre, or one where the manufacturer certified that it was safe to use on your vehicle. Luckily the T3 precedes that time, and that law no longer applies to new bikes (one advantage of European legislation trumping German law!). But when I had the Quota, my choice of tyres was VERY limited.
John
Well, I suppose that there are some advantages to those very "tight" laws, and some disadvantages. Got to "take the sour with the sweet" as the old saying goes .... ! It's one of the reasons we have different countries so you get a choice between sharing the road with trained, mature motorcycle riders on stock equipment, or share it with wild-eyed 16-year-olds on extended-swingarm Hayabusas running car tires ... !
Lannis
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The bike is mechanically very sound and all brake and suspension components are excellent. But as you indicated, there's something about the bike that inspectors don't like. But I don't have a lot of the OEM equipment to just bolt on for the inspection. That's what I'm busy sourcing now.
There was a period when not only the size of tyre, but also the manufacturer and type was indicated in the vehicle documents. You HAD to have that tyre, or one where the manufacturer certified that it was safe to use on your vehicle. Luckily the T3 precedes that time, and that law no longer applies to new bikes (one advantage of European legislation trumping German law!). But when I had the Quota, my choice of tyres was VERY limited.
Looks like you have to modify it back to oem for inspection purposes. Probably best to have a good working relationship with your inspection station. I was the motorcycle guy at our station. If I didn't get grief from an owner, I suggest to them what they needed to do.
John
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Well, I suppose that there are some advantages to those very "tight" laws, and some disadvantages. Got to "take the sour with the sweet" as the old saying goes .... ! It's one of the reasons we have different countries so you get a choice between sharing the road with trained, mature motorcycle riders on stock equipment, or share it with wild-eyed 16-year-olds on extended-swingarm Hayabusas running car tires ... !
Lannis
:laugh: :laugh:
As in most things, a sensible middle ground would probably be the best. :wink:
John
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:laugh: :laugh:
As in most things, a sensible middle ground would probably be the best. :wink:
John
True, but what constitutes "the middle ground" is very culturally driven.
In most US states, people's tendency is to accept only a minimum of "government interference" in their lives, even if it means that lots of untrained, inexperienced young people will die on over-powered or dangerously modified motorcycles. In Germany, people historically accept that they are to "Befehle befolgen" when authority speaks, and are willing to trade off personal flexibility for public and personal safety, which means tight licensing requirements and tight equipment laws.
I doubt that either place is going to move very far toward "the middle". They both think they're there already!! :grin:
Lannis
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The remaining air-box parts arrived yesterday (or so I thought!). It seems the previous owner installed a different breather box (Le Mans 1 ?) up near the coils, so my T3 Filter and breather assembly won't go in. I now have the T3 breather box, so I can take out the old one, but I now also have to exchange the intake manifolds, because it all doesn't line up. I'm guessing the original T3 manifolds have a sharper "bend" in them. I've located a pair.
Here's my question. Currently I don't have any breather return valve. The hoses just goes up from the crankcase to the breather box near the coils. When I put the new breather in (pushes into the rubber air box) I guess I will need to put in a valve otherwise the suction might do stuff I don't want it to!. How does that plug in there? Any tips on location and orientation appreciated. Unfortunately it is not clear from the parts diagram.
Regards
John
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Ah! A breather question. I'm very interested in those right now.
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Here's my question. Currently I don't have any breather return valve. The hoses just goes up from the crankcase to the breather box near the coils. When I put the new breather in (pushes into the rubber air box) I guess I will need to put in a valve otherwise the suction might do stuff I don't want it to!. How does that plug in there? Any tips on location and orientation appreciated. Unfortunately it is not clear from the parts diagram.
Regards
John
Do you have one of these?
(http://www.mgcycle.com/images/atrex/28150560.jpg)
The photo shows it disassembled, the ball goes into the "tube" and the circlip holds the ball in place. The whole assembly then slips into the large breather pipe on the upper rear of the engine "bellhousing" area. This elbow slips down over it and connects to the breather/filter assembly.
(http://www.mgcycle.com/images/atrex/17154850.jpg)
The check valve is #50 in the following drawing:
(http://www.stein-dinse.biz/bilder/auto/breite_800/303038393002.jpg)
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Thanks Charlie,
yes I have one of those and I did examine the parts diagram as best as I could. But I'm not sure whether I have all the bits of hoses. At the moment, an L shaped rubber piece (the picture in your post) comes up from the upper rear of the engine (I believe without a valve) and then points "forward" to the breather box. When I install the correct breather, that L piece will need to point "backward" and connect to the new breather box.
Should the valve be inserted between 2 pieces of hose? Or is it fitted directly to the top of the motor?
I assume the wider part of the valve should be at the bottom, right?
Maybe I'm missing part 25. Is that a metal part? Is it external?
I assume the hoses marked 19 are the breather pipes from the valve covers. But then what is hose 29 and what does it connect to?
Sorry, these question are probably pretty dumb when you've seen the set up. But trying to understand from the parts diagram can be difficult, and you can't always judge from the orientation. When I got the parts 5 and 4 yesterday it was clear what they are, but until then I couldn't guess from the drawing how they should be fitted :-)
John
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Should the valve be inserted between 2 pieces of hose? Or is it fitted directly to the top of the motor?
I assume the wider part of the valve should be at the bottom, right?
Maybe I'm missing part 25. Is that a metal part? Is it external?
I assume the hoses marked 19 are the breather pipes from the valve covers. But then what is hose 29 and what does it connect to?
Sorry, these question are probably pretty dumb when you've seen the set up. But trying to understand from the parts diagram can be difficult, and you can't always judge from the orientation. When I got the parts 5 and 4 yesterday it was clear what they are, but until then I couldn't guess from the drawing how they should be fitted :-)
John
The ball/check valve fits down into #25, a section of which should be extending up out of the engine towards the rear along with #29. The valve will only fit into that pipe one way (wider part up). Hose #15 then slips down over the valve and pipe and is clamped into place.
#29 is a metal oil return line and connects to the breather/airbox assembly via rubber elbow #16.
#19 are the hoses from the rocker covers to the breather/airbox assy.
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#29 is a metal oil return line and connects to the breather/airbox assembly via rubber elbow #16.
Thanks Charlie. So #29 is an internal line?
John
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Both #29 and #25 are inside the "bellhousing" area of the engine except for about 25 mm or so that sticks up out of the engine. It should look like this (except hopefully not as greasy :wink:):
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m5/Amboman4/breather%20pipes%20001_zpslcja3abu.jpg)
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Aces!
:thumb:
Thanks Charlie, especially for taking the time to take a picture!
It's all perfectly obvious now, but when you have none of the original parts and you're relying on a drawing, some questions arise! And I really don't want to have it sucking oil into the carbs!
John
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Only a very very sick mind could have invented the air filter box on the T3. It should get an award for the least user friendly construction. Putting all that crap on the bike was probably the least satisfying maintenance experience I've ever had, but it's done, and I'm off to the inspection station tomorrow.
But as soon as I get the sticker, the horrible filter box is coming off, and I'm going with a home made solution that fits between the frame, up under the tank and is hardly visible.
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t505/Xlratr/Mobile%20Uploads/DE3F2055-876A-43BB-B3F7-A82F1BAC1D09.jpg)
John
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Only a very very sick mind could have invented the air filter box on the T3. It should get an award for the least user friendly construction. Putting all that crap on the bike was probably the least satisfying maintenance experience I've ever had, but it's done, and I'm off to the inspection station tomorrow.
But as soon as I get the sticker, the horrible filter box is coming off, and I'm going with a home made solution that fits between the frame, up under the tank and is hardly visible.
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t505/Xlratr/Mobile%20Uploads/DE3F2055-876A-43BB-B3F7-A82F1BAC1D09.jpg)
John
Blame Lino Tonti, I do. The early small-block filter assembly is even worse.
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When you finally get it inspected, tip the inspector, then go back to him every year.
NYS bike inspections are $6 and I know they cost the station $2. So the guy is making four bucks to drop what he is doing, perform the inspection, and run it through the computer. I always give them 20 and tell them to keep the change. Makes next years inspections quicker.
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Two years of peace :thumb:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t505/Xlratr/Mobile%20Uploads/ADFEA0C8-D44F-425C-B0DD-DB421DF5F8F4.jpg)
John
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Only a very very sick mind could have invented the air filter box on the T3.
:smiley: :smiley: True, true. As Charlie says, the small blocks are worse. What a service nightmare.. :rolleyes:
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When you finally get it inspected, tip the inspector, then go back to him every year.
NYS bike inspections are $6 and I know they cost the station $2. So the guy is making four bucks to drop what he is doing, perform the inspection, and run it through the computer. I always give them 20 and tell them to keep the change. Makes next years inspections quicker.
The safety inspection fee here is $13.60, but if I give my guy $14, he gives me back $1. He doesn't use coins, and truncates the cost to $13. To get him to take $14 I had to convince him that after a few times, the honest thing to do was round up, and he reluctantly took the $14. And if he finds a small problem like a bulb not working, he passes me, because he knows I'll have it fixed that day and doesn't want to make me come back just for that.
Xlratr, Congratulations! You kept a good attitude through the ordeal, and got the job done.
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The fee here is €43 for the inspection! The re-test cost another €13. Compared to the US, that's ridiculous.
But it could be worse! When I take the Stelvio it will cost €65, because newer bikes require an emissions test.
Thanks for the suggestions on tipping the inspector, but they did make me smile :grin:. I can imagine ending up being prosecuted for attempted bribery! :copcar:
Anyway, it's all done now.
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Congrats! See if you can go to the same inspector next time. Take some strudel for the office.