Or not. The V7 may end up in a class all by itself because of all of this. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
I am disappointed that they have moved from air cooled to all liquid cooled bikes.
I primarily bought my 2014 V7 last month because of its light weight, amazing looks, air cooled engine and overall balance.
These new bikes by triumph seem to be going with the trend of bigger-is-better. I like the V7 precisely because it is a simple motorcycle.
I'd rather drive a 50 hp bike at 70 mph than a 100 hp bike at 70 mph.
:laugh:
Actually I'm REALLY curious what Harley and Guzzi are going to do.The 1400 is already Euro4 Compliant (it has been the first motorcycle engine to comply with the Euro4 standard).
I am shocked how much I keep coming back to this bike. It is the MOST I've ever been interested in a water-cooled bike (even more than the one I owned :laugh:).
Actually I'm REALLY curious what Harley and Guzzi are going to do.
Harley COULD in theory just sells Streets, Vrods, and Wet-Head Glides, but I don't think that's a smart strategy. They must have something else in the pipeline - well, maybe an expansion of the wet-heads to other lines.
And GUZZI, other than something weird like Ural or Enfield, they're the loan holdout without a single water-cooled bike in the lineup.
I would morn the loss of ALL air-cooled models, but seeing how well this was executed I MIGHT JUST BE READY to see a water-cooled model from Guzzi too.
Gonna be an interesting year or two in the bike market because of these regulations.
The 1400 is already Euro4 Compliant (it has been the first motorcycle engine to comply with the Euro4 standard).
The new Small Block 850, whose images had been already shown, is still air cooled, and will be obviously Euro 4.
I do not expect H-D to do anything more drastic than their current hybrid water-cooled heads. Distinguishing them from the standard non-water-cooled H-D takes a very keen eye. They may try to incorporate a minimal, oil-cooler sized radiator for the bikes without the big fairing of the WaterGlides.
Guzzi, who knows. They're coming out with this new small-block motor. I have hopes for it but I am suspecting a performance level maybe on par with the now-obsolete past-generation Triumphs - IF WE ARE LUCKY! lol
I do expect a water-cooled big-block Guzzi in the next few years.
As with any of these things, Triumph included (even though they have a relatively good track record), I am very cautious about buying a first-year new-design bike.
This new Trumpet really interests me.
It's very well done. Notice how you can see daylight behind the motor.
.
Hmm , wondering how a Pacifico Aerofoil would look on the new Thruxton ?
Dusty
The R version of the new Thruxton is getting a lot of attention.
Several things stand out to me.
First these 1200's are posting 83 foot pounds of torque and an estimated 100 HP. A factory race kit is forthcoming in 2016 to boost it even more.
Also, and this is big, they feature a 270 degree crank that will give it a V-Twin lumpiness. Handsome and fantastic-looking bike. I'm interested to see the actual weight numbers.
I also like the rear-end treatment. I've never been fond of the no-fender rear look but apparently Triumph is offering a kit to ditch the rear fender.
Notice the overhead view. In classic Triumph vertical twin fashion, they are wonderfully narrow, svelte.
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Miscellaneous/Thruxton-R-.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Miscellaneous/Thruxton-R-.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Miscellaneous/Thruxton-R-Silver-Ice-Left.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Miscellaneous/Thruxton-R-Silver-Ice-Left.jpg.html)
So those two models are good till when 2020? (Is that the next phase)?2021 for the bikes (2020 only for 50cc).
And we can assume the rest of the line can be brought into compliance for 2017-19 in similar fashion?
2021 for the bikes (2020 only for 50cc).
I don't know for the 750 and 1200. It's possible they will be homologated Euro4 next year (existing models can be still sold in 2016), or that, from 2017, all the Guzzi lineup (or at least the air-cooled lineup) will be composed of 850 and 1400.
The 1400 is already Euro4 Compliant (it has been the first motorcycle engine to comply with the Euro4 standard).
The new Small Block 850, whose images had been already shown, is still air cooled, and will be obviously Euro 4.
| Category and year | Euro level | Carbon monoxide (CO) | Total hydro-carbons (THC) | Nitrogen oxides (NOx) | Particulate matter (PM) | Non-methane hydro-carbon (NMHC) |
| Motorcycle 2014 | Euro 4 | 1970 | 250 | 170 | - | - |
| Motorcycle 2017 | Euro 5 | 1140 | 170 | 90 | - | - |
| Motorcycle 2020 | Euro 6 | 1000 | 100 | 60 | 4.51 | 68 |
| Moped 2014 | Euro 3 | 1000 | 12002 | - | - | - |
| Moped 2017 | Euro 4 | 1000 | 630 | 170 | - | - |
| Moped 2020 | Euro 5 | 1000 | 100 | 60 | 4.51 | 68 |
That is a good looking bike.
Motorcycles must comply with Euro 5 in 2017. (http://"http://www.airclim.org/acidnews/2010/AN4-10/tougher-emissions-standards-motorcycles")Sorry.
I, too, am in love with the new Thruxton R. It is incredibly good looking. It is better looking and undoubtedly better performing than the Norton Commando that I have wanted, for significantly less money.Mah...
I am not really enamored with water cooled bikes being dressed with fins. Sorta what the Japanese bikes did with their V twin/ Harley clones.
I am quite sure these bikes are great performers, I am just not into the "dolled up" approach. It's hard to make a water cooled engine look pretty.
I am disappointed that they have moved from air cooled to all liquid cooled bikes.
I primarily bought my 2014 V7 last month because of its light weight, amazing looks, air cooled engine and overall balance.
These new bikes by triumph seem to be going with the trend of bigger-is-better. I like the V7 precisely because it is a simple motorcycle.
I'd rather drive a 50 hp bike at 70 mph than a 100 hp bike at 70 mph.
:laugh:
I am not really enamored with water cooled bikes being dressed with fins.
What about bikes that are partially liquid cooled and require the fins to supplement the cooling ??
Just look how Triumph set a MG forum on fire.
"Polyamorous"
Love that word Mike :laugh:
Dusty
You should put that on the back of your upcoming "We like Happy Endings" T-shirt.
:boozing:
anyway not many pretty water cooled engines. I think the Japanese 4 cyl sportbikes probably have the best looking water cooled engines behind all that tupperware.
Agreed, Dean.
(Sacrilege from elders in the Church of Guzzi.. )
:smiley:
For "fully liquid cooled" beauty, my vote goes to Indian Scout.
I'd rather have the 100 HP if its done right. I would rather be able to twist the throttle and get more than twist the throttle only to find there is none.True. I am still getting used to 50 hp. Once I am used to it, no doubt I will also prefer the more hp, even if not used to the fullest. The new bikes do look awesome.
I would much rather have a 100hp bike that is well engineered, has first rate design and top quality assembly and up to date features than a 50hp bike without them.
Just look how Triumph set a MG forum on fire.
I am shocked how much I keep coming back to this bike. It is the MOST I've ever been interested in a water-cooled bike (even more than the one I owned :laugh:).yes, it seems like Guzzi will HAVE to introduce water cooled bikes as well, I suppose.
I agree with everything you said, except that they simply had no choice to move from air-cooled to water-cooled. The new EU standards that they must meet in 2017 forced their hands.
Actually I'm REALLY curious what Harley and Guzzi are going to do.
Harley COULD in theory just sells Streets, Vrods, and Wet-Head Glides, but I don't think that's a smart strategy. They must have something else in the pipeline - well, maybe an expansion of the wet-heads to other lines.
And GUZZI, other than something weird like Ural or Enfield, they're the loan holdout without a single water-cooled bike in the lineup.
I would morn the loss of ALL air-cooled models, but seeing how well this was executed I MIGHT JUST BE READY to see a water-cooled model from Guzzi too.
Gonna be an interesting year or two in the bike market because of these regulations.
I should clarify that though the power of the new Triumphs sounds nice, it's not my primary attraction.
I'm excited first and foremost by the aesthetics.
I'm excited next by dual disc brakes.
I'm excited by the OPTION of full Ohlins/Showa/Brembo even if I'd probably only get the T120.
Honestly I'd probably consider the Street Twin if they just put the damn dual disks.
But if I wind up with one eventually my V7 isn't going anywhere. It has the right balance of power, weight, simplicity that I love and I don't think the Bonnie would supplant it.
I retain my position that sometimes too much power is just too much. And I did purposely sell more powerful bikes to buy my V7 and I sold an even more powerful one since because I prefer the V7.
Before we diss the V7 line, lets remember the current Bonnies are quite a bit heavier than the V7s and these new ones will likley be even heavier, unless magic has been used.....
My B750 weighs 182 kgs, current Bonnies 205kgs?? These bikes???
I will say they are wonderfully styled though, and extra power comes in handy overtaking a car uphill fully loaded......
Great Scott...
I'm really diggin' that T120 1200. Looks really good. As a matter
of fact, the whole line looks great, except for one small thing...
NONE of them have shaft drive. Who wants to putz around with a chain?
I know, I know, not that big of a deal, but still�jus' sayin'...
Jim
They could have (should have) made them belt drive.
Would need to be a wide belt .
Dusty
Before we diss the V7 line, lets remember the current Bonnies are quite a bit heavier than the V7s and these new ones will likley be even heavier, unless magic has been used.....Yep. 400 lbs on the V7 is one of the big attractions, for me. I bought the bike to be a runabout and short commuter.
My B750 weighs 182 kgs, current Bonnies 205kgs?? These bikes???
I will say they are wonderfully styled though, and extra power comes in handy overtaking a car uphill fully loaded......
I can't imagine Triumph shaved off any of the 451 lbs / 205 kg of the Bonneville. Maybe the new engine/transmission is a little lighter. But the 6th gear and the liquid cooling gear weigh something. I wouldn't doubt the new bike weighs 475 lbs / 215 kg.
Notice that they haven't been talking about it. That in itself says something. If they'd shaved any weight, they'd be harping on it.
Would need to be a wide belt .
Dusty
Speak for yourself. :tongue:
Buell did more with less. :cool:
Speak for yourself. :tongue:
Buell did more with less. :cool:
They held more than 100 rwhp at bay with less than the thickness of your belt.
But yeah, it would make sense, Street and T120 belt, Thruxton chain. That gives the audience that gives a crap easy gear ratio changes at the sprockets.
Thread drift-
How about a Guzzi with a belt drive????....
Thread drift-
How about a Guzzi with a belt drive????....
First they must present an engine with transverse crankshat. Otherwise, there is too much power loss (bevel+belt).
Maybe not. Even with the shaft there is still a 90 degree turn at the bevel box.With the longitudinal crankshaft there is a 90 degree turn, and the corrispondent loss in power.
•Rear mudguard removal kit with compact lightand no licence plate.
•Compact LED Indicators
It is still very early, so this information may not be accurate, but I was told yesterday that US dealers can start taking deposits next week and that the new bikes should be available in the US by next April.
That's too long a lag for maximum sales capture.Maybe they have to allow enough lead time for all the magazines to do their testing? Magazine tests carry a lot of weight among most shoppers.
If this new 1200 comes in between $13-14K, as many people are speculating,Taking the prices reported by MCN as good, and doing a rapid proportion with the price of the actual Thruxton in UK and US, The Thruxton "base" will cost 11.500 $, the "R" 15.400 $.
Taking the prices reported by MCN as good, and doing a rapid proportion with the price of the actual Thruxton in UK and US, The Thruxton "base" will cost 11.500 $, the "R" 15.400 $.
That's consistent with the fact that the R will cost slightly more than a base BMW R Nine T in both countries.
My crystal ball prediction for USA market:
Street Twin: $8990
Bonnie T120: $9990
Thruxton: $11490
Thruxton R: $13490
Talking out my ass, though, as it's anyone's guess how they'll decide to place them in the market.
And I hope they're prepared to get them to market here sooner than April '16. People have their wallets out NOW !!!
My crystal ball prediction for USA market:
Street Twin: $8990
Bonnie T120: $9990
Thruxton: $11490
Thruxton R: $13490
Talking out my ass, though, as it's anyone's guess how they'll decide to place them in the market.
And I hope they're prepared to get them to market here sooner than April '16. People have their wallets out NOW !!!
Pricing - the Street Twin should cost approx. what a Bonnie standard costs today. T120s in the $12k range. The Thruxton R model in the mid-$14's. However, with lots of options, one could drive the price above $16k.
Again, don't hold me to this ..... I was half listening, and at the same time felt like I was interrupting their lunch!
My crystal ball prediction for USA market:
Street Twin: $8990
Bonnie T120: $9990
Thruxton: $11490
Thruxton R: $13490
Talking out my ass, though, as it's anyone's guess how they'll decide to place them in the market.
And I hope they're prepared to get them to market here sooner than April '16. People have their wallets out NOW !!!
but how much do they weigh?
The fact that they are hiding the weight, could only mean one thing the way I see it.
I don't know that I'd characterize them as actively hiding the weight stats. Few manufacturers tout their weights in promotional literature these days. We have a new model introduction and they logically want to focus on the most positive aspects of the machines and there are many.
.
And lighter weight isn't one of them!.
Sorta like when the Sportster went rubber mount. It took awhile for it to come to light that the bike had gained 50-lbs !!!
That 650 engine is still a piece of artwork, though.:1: :1: :1:
Can't beat the original!
It has to be updated and modernized, though, and this latest effort appears tremendously on target.
I know it probably would not have been practical but what if they had fitted a kick start to the new models!?Buaaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaa
Why do new bikes have to imitate the "classics" The "faux" carbs are like having mag wheel covers on a car, fake.......They have the styling clues but are much larger, heavier and more densely packed so they they still look like new bikes .....Nothing wrong with having a modern look like a modern bike...
Plenty "modern" bikes are out there. Some look like Transformer toys. Most of them could as well be powered by electric motors without much notice.
The style elements set out by bikes like the new Triumphs seem to cross generations of riders and have some inherent mechanical appeal to many people.
These styling cues have been around for about 60 years and are still going strong. H-D has made a most successful industry out of them.
never trust a bike if you can't see through it...
Yeah, wish they'd ditch fake carbs.
I generally reject "fakeness".
As I said earlier (in this thread or the other I forget?), I would not like fake cooling fins bolted over top of a smooth engine case. But if the cooling fins are actually a cast part of the case (and as such they probably contribute to overall engine cooling strategy, even if they were not "necessary") then I can forgive them.
With regards to Harley styling I always disliked the Softail because, as clever as it was, it just seemed silly to "pretend" it was a hard tail. And, with regards to the handling and performance of the bike the Softails always represented the worst of the worst so to speak.
And I'm no fan of chrome, never have been, but it is generally a durable material and I can tolerate SOME.
Now back to the Triumphs. I never rode the vintage machines, they were essentially long out of the market by the time I started riding. And even as a kid I had no real familiarity with them. So the "fake" amal carburetors aren't significant to me.
Now the question I ask is on the EFI air-cooled models or these new water-cooled models are they the actual throttle bodies which have just be styled to look like the carbs of old, or are they "covers" bolted over other components? I can forgive (almost appreciate the former as it is more of an homage than a case of deception). I mean really, it's a modern water-cooled bike that is simply taking the lines, the form, of an older air-cooled bike. But in the end no-one really believes it to be an antique and it's not trying to be.
I guess I could almost say that about Softails in retrospect... maybe my long hatred of them is too severe a position.
I certainly can forgive these Triumphs, so why not the Softail.
Then again, maybe it comes down to function. The Triumph isn't sacrificing too much function for its form.
And that makes all the difference.
I detest true fakeness too. The Triumph throttle bodies are not just fake covers. They're integrated castings. They did the same thing with the current fuel-injected classics but made the throttles mimic the later style CV carbs. The same is true of the fins. Retaining the fins creates a hybrid system that utilizes both direct-air as well as water-cooling.
Forget the historical aspects of the styling for a moment. The new Triumphs just look good.
If your Triumph logo is different than this one, it may not be a Triumph........from Coventry or Meriden :laugh:
(http://www.rat-pack.com/TriumphHistory/1934-1936-Triumph-Logo.jpg)
Except even that changed over the years :laugh: Ironic that this most English of companies was started by a German /
Dusty
Except even that changed over the years :laugh: Ironic that this most English of companies was started by a German /
Dusty
I wonder how the Griso components in a retro MG would sell?
For enthusiasts, Triumph started in 1938 with the introduction of the game changing 500 Speed Twin...And pretty much was over by 1970 when Triumph,despite being modestly profitable all the years, was dragged under by the stupidity of the BSA management.
The new Triumphs are modern engineering that stand on their own merit with no connection to the old company .
I wonder how the Griso components in a retro MG would sell?Like hotcakes.
You get a nod from everyone when you ride a Triumph, regardless of what they ride. I notice that a HD rider almost always looks and gives you the nod, they know great bikes too.
I had an '06 Thruxton and never had any trouble except that an exhaust header bolt broke off once.
Interview with Tirumphs Stuartt Wood.
http://www.pistonheads.com/news/general-pistonheads/stuart-wood-ph2-meets/33164
PH2: Was water cooling essential?
SW: "Air cooling was always an option, but it would have been a case of wringing it out rather than planning for the future. Water cooling, along with ride-by-wire, allowed us to optimize the engine and deliver 36 per cent better fuel economy as well as far more power. Air cooling would have required degrading the engine's performance to meet emissions laws. This bike's engine is now at the start of its development where an air-cooled one would have been right on its limits. The new Bonnie's engine and chassis has taken as much time, effort and R&D to develop as an equivalent sports bike. In fact, the Bonneville development team was twice as big as any other team Triumph has used to develop a new bike and it still took four years."
Ordered. Deposit paid. A basic, stock, gray Thruxton R:
(http://www.morebikes.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Thruxton-R-Silver-Ice-Rightlores.jpg)
I want another cafe racer, and I really like what I have seen and read so far. However, I still have plenty of time to change my mind (until March or April). Come on, MG, persuade me otherwise!
two - why would you build a vertical twin only to change the crank position for that 'lub-dub' thus erasing the vertical twin 'charm'
Rich
Well, the Triumph man said that the 270 crank helped with balance on the larger displacement engines... And 1200 is big for a vertical twin.
Why leave it a vertical twin? Because a vertical twin is Triumph, just like a flat twin is BMW, just like a longitudinal v-twin is Guzzi...
Ordered. Deposit paid. A basic, stock, gray Thruxton R:
(http://www.morebikes.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Thruxton-R-Silver-Ice-Rightlores.jpg)
I want another cafe racer, and I really like what I have seen and read so far. However, I still have plenty of time to change my mind (until March or April). Come on, MG, persuade me otherwise!
I really don't know what you guys are talking about? I sort of understand it has something to do with the firing order, but in reality what, 270 360, what does it mean in the real world?
I really don't know what you guys are talking about? I sort of understand it has something to do with the firing order, but in reality what, 270 360, what does it mean in the real world?
There is no charm in a non 270 twin, there is vibration of the Honda 350 kind and who really like that?You may want to ride a new Bonneville with twin balance shafts with 360 degree crank. Most Hondas back when used the 180 degree cranks, and they weren't too exciting from either sound or vibe standpoint (IMO). OTOH, if you don't like the sound of an old Bonneville, or for that matter, a new Bonneville with TOR pipes, well then, you're right ..... there would be no charm to a non-270 degree vertical twin. Like beauty, charm is in the sensory receptors of the beholder.
As I understand it, aside from sounding like a 90-degree V-twin, which is more pleasing to fans of said V-twins, another advantage of the 270 degree crank is less torsional vibration in the crank. With a 360 or 180 degree crank, both pistons are at their maximum speed at the same time, and both are stopped at the same time. With the 270, one is at maximum speed when the other is stopped, and visa versa. Because of this, the kinetic energy in the reciprocating parts (pistons, rods, etc) is is a lot closer to constant, where with the 360 and 180, it is going from zero to max and back to zero every revolution.
This .True (I think.) Somehow it doesn't seem to make a lot of difference when it comes to crank wear over time/miles. In all cases, the pistons are coming to a complete stop, before moving in the opposite direction. Even in the vaunted BMW flat twin, which is much like a 360 vertical twin, aside from the fact that the pistons are moving in opposite directions when they come to their stop, they still come to a stop at the same time. The difference is that when they stop, they are pushing/ pulling against each other, vs both pistons pushing/pulling together. What the hell do I know .... I'm no engine engineer .... just a guy mentally picturing what's happening as the pieces rotate.
Dusty
True (I think.) Somehow it doesn't seem to make a lot of difference when it comes to crank wear over time/miles. In all cases, the pistons are coming to a complete stop, before moving in the opposite direction. Even in the vaunted BMW flat twin, which is much like a 360 vertical twin, aside from the fact that the pistons are moving in opposite directions when they come to their stop, they still come to a stop at the same time. The difference is that when they stop, they are pushing/ pulling against each other, vs both pistons pushing/pulling together. What the hell do I know .... I'm no engine engineer .... just a guy mentally picturing what's happening as the pieces rotate.
One niggle for me, as my friend blackcat mentioned the other day, is the stamped joining ridge around the perimeter of the fuel tank. I could live without it but I can also live with it.
Yes, that's an visual distraction in the design.
It would be great if Triumph has the bikes ready to show at the IMS making its annual tour, it's my plan to attend this weekend.
http://www.motorcycleshows.com/city/sacramento-ca
Also true Bob , but as you stated , the opposed twin works a bit different than a parallel twin . Damn , those old airheads are sweet at 6K RPMs , huh ! Just to confuse the issue even further , from an engineering standpoint , the boxer is a 180 degree V twin , try 'splainin that to a Harley rider :laugh:They're different. Cylinders 180 degrees apart, with a 180 degree crankshaft = 1 power stroke every 360 degrees, just like a parallel twin with a 360 degree crank. If all systems are working as they should, these engines, unlike parallel twins, have (should have) perfect primary balance, with a slight secondary imbalance.
Dusty
I talked to Rob Boyer, head of Triumph America, weight is the same as the old one, horsepower on the 900 is actually DOWN a couple. That must mean lower redline. We all know torque is up, he also said they are getting 60mpg in real world testing. First bikes in dealers January.
The sound and feel of the old 650 triumph twin is nice. However, unlike its Norton cousins, you can rev the Triumph engine on its centerstand and it will walk around when parked on a concrete floor! lolMy Beezer walked backwards on the stand when revved in neutral. Never thought about it being a balance issue. When the biggest thing I'd ridden prior to first ride on the650 was a Mustang scooter, and being 22 at the time, and knowing everything, I attributed it to the 'mighty' BSA's 40 hp, give or take a few.
The sound and feel of the old 650 triumph twin is nice. However, unlike its Norton cousins, you can rev the Triumph engine on its centerstand and it will walk around when parked on a concrete floor! lol
I am out and about among all sorts of motorcycle riders, all brands. Without one exception, everybody seems to be going bonkers over the new Triumphs. These are fantastic-looking bikes that are posting big horsepower numbers. I think Triumph did it right.
My December issue of Motorcyclist arrived yesterday and the Thruxton R is on the cover. The cover article that is based on a journalist preview at the factory, is gushing with praise.
Man, I like that ThruxR.
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Miscellaneous/thruxton-r-shown-looking-.9jpg.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Miscellaneous/thruxton-r-shown-looking-.9jpg.jpg.html)
I am out and about among all sorts of motorcycle riders, all brands. Without one exception, everybody seems to be going bonkers over the new Triumphs. These are fantastic-looking bikes that are posting big horsepower numbers. I think Triumph did it right.
My December issue of Motorcyclist arrived yesterday and the Thruxton R is on the cover. The cover article that is based on a journalist preview at the factory, is gushing with praise.
Man, I like that ThruxR.
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Miscellaneous/thruxton-r-shown-looking-.9jpg.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Miscellaneous/thruxton-r-shown-looking-.9jpg.jpg.html)
Wish I hadn't seen this picture...I want one now!