Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Chuck in Indiana on November 04, 2015, 02:16:04 PM
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Ok, the Kid brought his carb Spot down with the clutch slipping. We pulled everything apart this morning.. pix coming.. and the clutch intermediate plate and drive plate look like this. Problem?
Should we do anything about it? I'm an airplane guy, and don't have to fool with clutches much. :smiley:
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/1-P1120140_zpszvdobbmb.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/1-P1120140_zpszvdobbmb.jpg.html)
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Woof !
Dusty
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Hmmm..kinda cryptic..
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Is that glazing from the friction plates? Maybe try brake cleaner?
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I'd replace the intermediate plate (the one from Cycle Garden seems to be the best quality of those currently available) and use an abrasive disc in an angle die grinder to dress the surface of the cover/ring gear and pressure plate.
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Is that glazing from the friction plates? Maybe try brake cleaner?
Discolored from being hot is my guess.
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I'd replace the intermediate plate (the one from Cycle Garden seems to be the best quality of those currently available) and use an abrasive disc in an angle die grinder to dress the surface of the cover/ring gear and pressure plate.
How about taking a cut off the intermediate plate on my surface grinder?
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How about taking a cut off the intermediate plate on my surface grinder?
I wouldn't want to make it any thinner. Already warp prone as it is.
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Is the intermediate warped at all? If so, there is no hope for it. It's pretty thin to try to surface in any way. I've seen a heckuva lot worse and still running. Clutch is a clutch is a clutch as far as wear, it is directly affected by the operator. Looks like the bike has been enjoyed properly.
New frictions and the steel, set of springs and back together.
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Is the intermediate warped at all? If so, there is no hope for it. It's pretty thin to try to surface in any way. I've seen a heckuva lot worse and still running. Clutch is a clutch is a clutch as far as wear, it is directly affected by the operator. Looks like the bike has been enjoyed properly.
New frictions and the steel, set of springs and back together.
Nope, it's not warped. Max wear is .003"
Thanks, Curtiss..
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Nope, it's not warped. Max wear is .003"
Thanks, Curtiss..
You could risk just dressing it and reusing it then. I *hate* tearing a Guzzi all back apart for clutch work a second time, so I go new instead of risking it. <shrug> :wink:
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True, I'd just buy all the bits.
But what I REALLY want to see is the Sport transmission removal thread.
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You could risk just dressing it and reusing it then. I *hate* tearing a Guzzi all back apart for clutch work a second time, so I go new instead of risking it. <shrug> :wink:
Seriously, it wasn't much of a job to get the clutch out on the Spot. We were surprised at how easy it was. We were looking at it in two hours, including a visit from Ed the Rocket Scientist to look at the antique airplane project I have going on.. :smiley:
But.
I understand what you're saying. We won't be going back together with it tomorrow.. so probably should just order the plate. We'll open up the transmission.. when he gets back and a round touit.. he needs the experience of looking in a Guzzi transmission..and make one order do the job. Maybe. :smiley:
"If you look for problems in an old machine, you *will* find them.." :wink:
Chuck in Indiana
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True, I'd just buy all the bits.
But what I REALLY want to see is the Sport transmission removal thread.
I took some pix, Aaron.. it's surprisingly easy. I'll probably post it tomorrow.
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It looks like it should be easier than a Tonti, but I was informed that I was mistaken.
So the breath it is baited.
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baited.
So. Does it smell like worms or minnows? :cool: <ducking and running>
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Yes, minnows. Glad you noticed.
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With the ring gear? If you can cut/grind the friction surface and then remove the same amount from the the mating surface to keep the depth intact it will be fine. The intermediate plates are so cheap I'd just throw one at it to save arseing about.
Pete
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When I get them like that, if they are not warped, I just clean them up.
I degrease them, then run. over them with Scotchbrite disks in and angle grinder.
http://www.amazon.com/3M-07480-Coarse-Surface-Conditioning/dp/B0002STR90
Those are also great for cleaning the spots off of a brake disk that make it grab (what a lot of people think is a warped disk).
If the clutch has slipped much, consider putting in new springs too, as the old ones may be weak.
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I suspect that you will post at least one photo like this.(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/601/22379632148_97b4903e7b_o_d.jpg)
It is an easy job to get these motor/box units out.
cheers, voncrump
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So, the Kid brought his barn find (literally) early Carb Sport, S/N 00037 down for a little maintenance.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/Sport/10-P1120129_zps8be9wmto.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/Sport/10-P1120129_zps8be9wmto.jpg.html)
It was in pretty rough shape. A bicyclist had darted in the previous owner's path..one thing after another happened, and it ended up laying on it's side on the barn floor for years.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/Sport/01-P1120130_zpst8nzvsh7.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/Sport/01-P1120130_zpst8nzvsh7.jpg.html)
Brad repaired it enough to get it on the road, and see if it was worth a restoration. It had huge main jets in it, 170s IIRC, and wouldn't run at WFO at all. We talked about it and decided to try 130s. Oh, yeah.. :smiley: making lots of power, and the clutch is slipping now. I told him I'd had success at washing out the bell housing with mineral spirits, etc. So he gave that a go. Better, but no cigar. Just the same.. he really likes it. Sent me out on it yesterday morning, and I like it, too. :smiley: It's the first Spot I've ridden, and it's a hoot. Lighter than the later Spineys, and *very* mechanical. :drool:
Our goal is to change the clutch stuff out, and have a look at the transmission. Fifth gear whines, although nothing like the Lario transmission I changed out.
Rolled it up on my cheap HF lift, and 30 minutes later..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/Sport/02-P1120131_zpsq169ia3w.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/Sport/02-P1120131_zpsq169ia3w.jpg.html)
Time to make a decision. Drop the "motive unit" out the bottom, or pull the bike off the top? Since we were inspecting, too, we thought it would be a good idea to pull the wheel, drive box, etc. and have a look at the U joints, too. Decided to take the bike off. I already had "the box" that I used on the Aero Lario, so lifted the bike up and slid it under the pan.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/Sport/03-P1120132_zpsgffstt60.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/Sport/03-P1120132_zpsgffstt60.jpg.html)
There is a fair amount of what I call "afterthought engineering" involved with these early Sports. :smiley: There's the weird 2 piece axle, and places where stock parts have been cut "She's a no going to fit in there.." "Just cut it away.." "That'll be too weak.." " Weld on a brace, Luigi.." :wink: but it all manages to work.
At this point, we'd unhooked the simple electricals, cables, etc. Nothing fancy on this bike.. and all the bolts that hold the Motive unit to the bike. AeroQroil made short work of corroded bolts,etc. but there were no frozen fasteners. :thumb:
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/Sport/06-P1120135_zpsrlg03rm1.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/Sport/06-P1120135_zpsrlg03rm1.jpg.html)
Drove out the last bolt with an ejector pin.. (moldmaker stuff)
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/Sport/05-P1120134_zpsho1rhvht.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/Sport/05-P1120134_zpsho1rhvht.jpg.html)
and that was it.
He got on one side, I on the other, and we simply pulled the pin, picked it up, sat it on the front wheel, and rolled it back to the waiting saw horse.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/Sport/07-P1120136_zps3qahl4ml.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/Sport/07-P1120136_zps3qahl4ml.jpg.html)
I love the simplicity and elegant design of the Guzzi powerplant/transmission..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/Sport/08-P1120137_zpsamzxvkl7.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/Sport/08-P1120137_zpsamzxvkl7.jpg.html)
Drained the transmission oil through a doubled paint filter..no debris..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/Sport/09-P1120138_zpsyiqwpdik.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/Sport/09-P1120138_zpsyiqwpdik.jpg.html)
and found the discolored stuff already pictured, and trashed clutch plates.
Total time 2 hours. I told Brad that it was easier than I expected, and he said, "Yeah, but there were two of us that sorta have a clue.." :smiley: although neither of us had done this before.
One guy could have done it, but it would have required a cherry picker to get the bike up and off.
Naturally, it'll take quite a bit longer to put it back together..
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Thank you!!
It pretty much confirms what I have thought. Frankly, so far most things on these bikes are pretty easy to access-this operation was the one thing I haven't had to do.
130 mains worked? I'm a little surprised. I'll have to give that a go if I have something close, I'm on 160s that came with it, though I've changed out everything else. I thought I was going pretty good too..
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Thank you!!
It pretty much confirms what I have thought. Frankly, so far most things on these bikes are pretty easy to access-this operation was the one thing I haven't had to do.
130 mains worked? I'm a little surprised. I'll have to give that a go if I have something close, I'm on 160s that came with it, though I've changed out everything else. I thought I was going pretty good too..
My pleasure, Aaron. Yeah, he said it was pig rich at WFO. After riding it yesterday, I think it needs larger idle jets. It feels lean until about 3K rpm, then takes off. When I came back, I told him I thought it needed the clip on the needle moved down. He said it was already on the bottom. I don't know what is in the carbs, but gave him Ed's 40 recipe. Still needs some sorting, but makes the horizon come at you at a pretty good rate. :smiley: Fun bike.
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Are you sure you haven't got oil leaking from the rear main seal on the clutch plates ? I would replace that seal and also the transmission input shaft seal since you already have it apart.
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Are you sure you haven't got oil leaking from the rear main seal on the clutch plates ? I would replace that seal and also the transmission input shaft seal since you already have it apart.
The rear main wasn't leaking, apparently, but we changed it out anyway. Luigi had forgotten to put permatex on the bottom two bearing flange bolts, though. May have leaked there. Planning on new bearings and seals in the transmission, depending on what we find. Aaron has already sent me o rings for the pushrod. Thanks.
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130 mains worked? I'm a little surprised. I'll have to give that a go if I have something close, I'm on 160s that came with it, though I've changed out everything else. I thought I was going pretty good too..
130 sounds small. Chuck, is the air filter in good shape?
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A rear main leak could only contaminate the clutch if truly massive amounts of oil came out. I can't imagine a clutch slipping form that without the possibility of engine failure.
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130 sounds small. Chuck, is the air filter in good shape?
I saved this from a few years ago, Wayne.. <shrug>
Quote from: ed@guzzitech.com on July 22, 2011, 08:09:57 PM
The rich running comes from terrible stock jetting. Euro jetting is terrible as well.
I have a jetting recipe to fix these bikes.
K4 needle, bottom clip
128 mains
68 idle
50/3 slide
265 atomizers
The most important thing is the atomizer and needle combo. Good luck.
Ed Milich
Ed, I found your LMIV jetting page a couple of years ago and rejetted my LMIV to match. What a difference over stock jetting or the mess I'd backed myself into trying to sort it out. I was living at about 2,000' altitude at the time, now I'm back about 300'. Not much adjustment needed so I'm leaving it alone. Plugs are still a light to medium brown and it pulls hard all the way up the tach.
Thanks!
Tobit
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Woof woof !
Dusty
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Are you planning on pulling the transmission cover?
I've heard many, um, things about 5th gear, many of which may be overstated. It would be fun to see..I know you mentioned a 5th gear sound (though they really do all do that, sir) which might be normal, or a bearing-or some might say teeth.
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Are you planning on pulling the transmission cover?
I've heard many, um, things about 5th gear, many of which may be overstated. It would be fun to see..I know you mentioned a 5th gear sound (though they really do all do that, sir) which might be normal, or a bearing-or some might say teeth.
Sure. It's out.. might as well have a look. The Kid is dealing with a health issue with his mom, and I have plenty of other projects to waste time on until he's back to work on it. :smiley:
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So, I'm assuming fifth gear is as Pete so euphemistically calls it, "rooted?"
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/Sport/1-006_zpstbeq7dro.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/Sport/1-006_zpstbeq7dro.jpg.html)
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And I thought my hearing was bad. That had to be making a LOT of noise.
Why does it almost look like rust on the output shaft?
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And I thought my hearing was bad. That had to be making a LOT of noise.
Why does it almost look like rust on the output shaft?
Don't ask me, I'm a rookie at all this.. :smiley: but remember, it laid on it's side in the barn for years..
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Interesting, pitting like that is usually associated with lubrication issues. How many miles on this bike?
It isn't terminal at all, though it's unlikely to "heal". How are the other gears?
Fun. Been a while since I did this stuff.
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Aaron? It's totally and utterly 'Donald Ducked'! You can't be serious!
When fifth is that bad there is usually further damage. Next in line is usually third and the primaries, after that it's a lottery and tends to depend on where and how it is ridden. If there is any damage to the clustershaft it'll be a lot cheaper to just fling in the internals of a helically cut five speed.
Pete
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Aaron? It's totally and utterly 'Donald Ducked'! You can't be serious!
When fifth is that bad there is usually further damage. Next in line is usually third and the primaries, after that it's a lottery and tends to depend on where and how it is ridden. If there is any damage to the clustershaft it'll be a lot cheaper to just fling in the internals of a helically cut five speed.
Pete
Third looks er ok to my untrained eye, but not absolutely pristine. Brad's dealing with his mom's surgery right now, but has experience in helicopter transmissions. I sent him the above picture and he said he wouldn't fly it.. :smiley: Probably the cheapest way to go is to swap in the internals of a helical 5 speed?
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Once there is pitting it will go downhill rapidly. On the road you really won't notice the difference between the straight and helically cut box, it just won't sound as butch! :laugh:
Pete
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Pete, it may well be gone in this application-though in other gear trains I've worked on the equipment vendor would say it was possibly getting near the end of life, and accessibility or noise might be the determining factor as to whether it should be replaced. But pitting like that isn't considered failure, just a symptom.
But again, it looks lube related, and if that's the case, other damage may well be already happening.
I'm interested in figuring if the oil is failing because of shock from the drive train, or insufficient oil.
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Shock from the drivetrain is the killer. Three dog engagement and no Cush drive at the rear wheel and the very unforgiving stacked washer Spring on the face cam on the input shaft all combine to beat the snot out of the gears when going on/off throttle.
It's unlikely, but not impossible, that fifth in particular may get starved of oil simply because the straight cut teeth don't fling it up that end as effectively as the helically cut teeth in other five speed boxes? It's also notable that the later helically cut, five dog boxes also have a tendency, (Although not as pronounced.) to damage fifth gear and they too have a different helical tooth form to the earlier five speeds which in my experience are immune to the fifth gear eating issues.
Gotta disagree on the severity of the damage though. Once the case hardening is gone wear will be rapid and it's only a matter of time before some sort of catastrophic failure will occur.
Pete
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I don't think the case hardening is gone. But only a test will tell that tale. Besides now that they are in there, with Chuck's skills, I can't imagine them putting it back in there.
Anyway, I noticed on my own gearbox that when the lube is filled as normal, no oil gets picked up by 5th if you turn the thing over-very different from the other Guzzi boxes.
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So, Pete, you're saying he should be looking for an early rather than late 5 speed to swap parts in? We were talking last night about worse case scenario (looks like it might be here) and he was worried that late 5 speeds are scarce.
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Apart from the difference in pinion helix the other changes of any importance are the early boxes use six dog engagement and a dirty great coil spring for the face cam shock absorber while the later, 1100 Cali, five speeds use the stacked washer spring system and five dog engagement. There *may* also be an issue with the needle rollers used at the back of the input and front of the clustershafts. I think that change occurred later though.
My suspicion is that an earlier, six dog, box would probably be of higher quality than a later five dog box but that is conjecture on my part. The coil spring shock absorber is also a more forgiving but less robust mechanism than its later replacement.
Pete
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Ok, thanks for that, Pete.. I'll pass the info along.
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My '96 Sport also suffers from Dreaded Gearbox Whine. I haven't taken it apart because I''m afraid of what I'll find. If I wanted to replace the '96 stuff with later helical 5-speed stuff, from which years and models should I take the newer gears?
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It's also notable that the later helically cut, five dog boxes also have a tendency, (Although not as pronounced.) to damage fifth gear and they too have a different helical tooth form to the earlier five speeds which in my experience are immune to the fifth gear eating issues.
My 2004 EV, helical gears, started screaming in fifth gear. After a few thousand miles I went in and replaced the gears. You needed a magnifying glass to see the problem. The hardened surfaces on the gear teeth were filled with cracks. I don't think any material had left the gears. Just that the cracking made a lot of noise.
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My '96 Sport also suffers from Dreaded Gearbox Whine. I haven't taken it apart because I''m afraid of what I'll find. If I wanted to replace the '96 stuff with later helical 5-speed stuff, from which years and models should I take the newer gears?
All the five speeds are pretty much the same internally apart from the differences I noted above. The reason you'd want to swap the internals rather than just swapping in the complete box are simply that you want to get rid of the crappy ATN9 bearings and the end case on the Spiney boxes doesn't have the spigot for the UJ boot.
Pete
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Anyone have a low-mile 5-speed box they'd like to part with? I'd sure like to lose a little of the agricultural feel and sound of the Sport.
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Anyone have a low-mile 5-speed box they'd like to part with? I'd sure like to lose a little of the agricultural feel and sound of the Sport.
Is there no gearing difference between a "Spot" and other 5 speeds?
Todd.
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Is there no gearing difference between a "Spot" and other 5 speeds?
Todd.
A little, but not enough to worry about is my understanding.
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A little, but not enough to worry about is my understanding.
Makes me then wonder if my '95 Carb-ifornia is a good potential swap should ever the Spot go south. Here, I assume the same year California does not have straight cuts...?
Todd.
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Three Differences Between The Cases Of A 1100 Sport And Other Cases. As Pete Said The Rubber Boot Spiggot Is Removed On The 1100 Sport Box. The Two Top Mounting Bolts At The Bell Housing End Have Been Machined To Around 35mm Length To Accept The Triangle Mounting Plate And Machining Has Been Done At The Rear Mounting Point Of The Case To Accept The Rear Mounting Boss.
I Machined My Replacement Box To Fit. Not Much Work But Easier Just To Use The Existing 1100 Sport Cases. I Can Put Some Photos On If Anyone Is Interested.
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Excellent catch. I didn't know about the case machining for the mounting plate. Thank you.
Pete
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Three Differences Between The Cases Of A 1100 Sport And Other Cases. As Pete Said The Rubber Boot Spiggot Is Removed On The 1100 Sport Box. The Two Top Mounting Bolts At The Bell Housing End Have Been Machined To Around 35mm Length To Accept The Triangle Mounting Plate And Machining Has Been Done At The Rear Mounting Point Of The Case To Accept The Rear Mounting Boss.
I Machined My Replacement Box To Fit. Not Much Work But Easier Just To Use The Existing 1100 Sport Cases. I Can Put Some Photos On If Anyone Is Interested.
Sure, put em up. It's more accumulated knowledge to share.
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Very interesting thread. One of these days I'm going to have to get into my early Dayona's box and the information here will be very helpful. Thanks
Jack