Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: SED on November 08, 2015, 12:03:46 PM
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I have 4 old motorcycles that are definitely classics, but they are not good investments because none of them are particularly valuable. They also have the problem that I like to ride them more than clean and polish them so they tend to get dirty, get scuffs and scratches and wear out. :cool:
But what about a really valuable bike? Could a person own and ride a Vincent or Norton International or Brough Superior or whatever and actually consider it an investment or is owning and riding a classic bike always a bad investment?
:popcorn:
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Vincent or an old Indian Chief :thumb:
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Thanks for the replies.
Arizona Wayne, what happened to your reply - it was just the type of thoughtful response I was looking for! :thumb:
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Yes absolutely,
Really rich people own companies, they buy their investment in a company name, maintain them in the company name, ride the bikes, drive the cars, and hey if the investment does not pay then other Financial investments will, they've been tax efficient and had fun. Win! Win!
From the point of view of the rest of us. If you buy cheap , ride only a few miles and sell on you might make a few hundred dollars other than that buy just to look at if you have space to store.
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I have 4 old motorcycles that are definitely classics, but they are not good investments because none of them are particularly valuable. They also have the problem that I like to ride them more than clean and polish them so they tend to get dirty, get scuffs and scratches and wear out. :cool:
But what about a really valuable bike? Could a person own and ride a Vincent or Norton International or Brough Superior or whatever and actually consider it an investment or is owning and riding a classic bike always a bad investment?
:popcorn:
Brough Superiors, probably not - they're all way up in the six figures now and you'd have to convince an insurance company to let you ride one regularly on the highway.
Vincents, you can get a nice non-matching-number Rapide (not a Shadow or Lightning) for $50,000 or so. Once they're sorted, they're just another old British bike in terms of keeping them running - cables, tires, plugs, chains, and such don't care if they're on a BSA or a Vincent. But if you ride it enough wear out or break something, no one is going to even look at an engine rebuild under $25K.
BSA Rocket IIIs are selling for big money but very rideable. I just bought a Norton Interstate to ride, and I don't expect to lose any money on it if I ever sell it - probably the opposite.
Sort of depends if you can handle the "margin call" if you put a rod through the case - it's not like doing it to a Bonneville!!
Lannis
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/2 beemers and loop frames seem to be doing alright , round case Ducatis and Z1 Kawasakis also .
Dusty
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Thanks for the replies.
Arizona Wayne, what happened to your reply - it was just the type of thoughtful response I was looking for! :thumb:
I decided since it was mostly about old cars I should delete it and did. Usually stuff I post here get's ignored(it seems) so I felt it was inappropriate. :undecided:
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Thanks for your thoughts - keep them coming! One could put $ in the bank or the stock market, but there's no fun in that. Or one could make a down payment on a house or other real estate, but there is responsibility (especially for a rental) and maybe more risk. So I was thinking "What is something I like that also appreciates?" That's how this question came up.
:popcorn:
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I've been wondering about the same thing, I joke with my wife about it - seems to me you have to either be real lucky or really do your research, or both (like any investment I suppose) to get just the right bike at just the right price to truly realize a good profit. Riding such a bike is a big wild card, potentially tanking your investment and then some tho.....but where's the fun in looking at a dusty bike in the basement while it "matures" in value!
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Norwegians have a name for this -- Brukskunst. It translates to "Useable art". So, pick out the prettiest of the classics, use it and when it rises in value after a while, you can sell it for a profit. But your ROI will take a long time to realize. Many wealthy car investors buy the classic one-of-a-kind cars and store them in well hidden buildings; they don't drive them around like Jay Leno does with his collection.
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I took a loan off my 401K and bought a V7 Sport. Pay myself back at a low interest rate and have a "ridable" investment. Key word "RIDABLE". WIN-WIN!
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Regarding Vincent wasn't there a company that made exact copies of 1970s.
Ride the same cost a lot less, still have a investment potential?
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A couple local collectors ride their Vincent, Indian Chief and Indian Scout on a regular basis and they keep them in pristine condition. I have no issue riding my V7 Sport on a regular basis and is gets a nick or scrape so be it.
These old desirable bikes may not make significant financial gains but I don't think they will depreciate either.
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I have been investing in old bikes for over 50 years and have yet to make a profit beyond the pleasure of riding them and caring for them ; think I broke even a couple of times since my hourly rate is $0 . Too much worry takes fun out of just about anything you do , and I would worry about using a really expensive bike day to day , and if I can't use it the way I want I won't own it . Investing is for rich people and I am not , so I have a couple of sub $5k bikes that I can work on myself and insure them for liability and ride .
I think buying a bike for an investment would be like marrying for money ; bittersweet at best , mostly sad .
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I've seen this one in France. Just ride it, no nurseing. I like how he did the tank bag.
(http://fastguzzi.nl/gallery/main.php/d/768-1/DSC02661.JPG)
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Regarding Vincent wasn't there a company that made exact copies of 1970s.
Ride the same cost a lot less, still have a investment potential?
1970's what ?
Dusty
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Motor vehicles are rarely good investments unless you pick something on the lucky side. Even so, you are losing money against inflation over time not to mention the maintenance and other upkeep.
Other investments outperform motor vehicles soundly. Yeah some get lucky with bikes but even if it triples in value, you can do better over the same time period with other investments are more liquid.
Economy hiccups and those ridable/driveable investments get sold for cheap. How do you think the people who have them got them?
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Compared to most vehicles that DEPRECIATE, a vintage bike that holds its value while you ride it is still a worthy "investment". You just have to be selective as to the make and model.
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Heather MacGregor, of the UK got some money as a result of a car accident settlement more than 25 years ago. She bought a Brough Superior with the money. She has been riding it ever since, all the time, all over the UK, all over Europe etc.
Recently she reported that someone pointed to her licence plate, clearly ignoring the bike, and said"You could get a lot of money for that".
Ride 'em (like Heather), don't hide 'em. They're machines, designed to be used.
Nick
(http://www.adamsheritage.info/images/heather.jpg)
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An investment? Not likely, and only through luck, especially now.
Now, ride something cool that won't depreciate much-or at least not by 50%/year-that's pretty easy. Until I bought new bikes this year I was actually ahead financially on my motorcycling, basically got them all for net zero.
That assumes of course that I don't count my maintenance time, tires etc.
If you don't ride the thing it ceases to be a motorcycle, and it can never be art (that's a different story anyway).
BTW, on Friday I saw a Black Shadow parked in front of a store-it belonged to a fellow I met in 1979, who was riding it back then. I think it was the same one, he's had quite a few. Rides them all, a lot.
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There is a very limited market for expensive classic motorcycles. i finally found a buyer for my 47 Chief who wanted to pay slightly more than I had invested. It was a rider but also an AMCA Junior-so fairly original. Also took quite awhile to sell-not exactly a liquid investment.
If you buy a classic, keep it in close to original condition, and ride it. In several years you will probably not lose money-but I doubt that you will make a bundle either.
Stocks,bonds,etc. are investments-not old motorbikes. :laugh:
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Shhhhhhhush. "Investment" is what we tell our wives when we want another vintage bike. Don't blow it.
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Heather MacGregor, of the UK got some money as a result of a car accident settlement more than 25 years ago. She bought a Brough Superior with the money. She has been riding it ever since, all the time, all over the UK, all over Europe etc.
Recently she reported that someone pointed to her licence plate, clearly ignoring the bike, and said"You could get a lot of money for that".
Ride 'em (like Heather), don't hide 'em. They're machines, designed to be used.
Nick
(http://www.adamsheritage.info/images/heather.jpg)
This is sort of the fantasy I was entertaining! Thanks.
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Shhhhhhhush. "Investment" is what we tell our wives when we want another vintage bike. Don't blow it.
Don't worry, wives already know its a FOS story. They are probably amazed that we think they believe the story.
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Thanks to everyone for the replies so far - great ideas!
There is a very limited market for expensive classic motorcycles. i finally found a buyer for my 47 Chief who wanted to pay slightly more than I had invested. It was a rider but also an AMCA Junior-so fairly original. Also took quite awhile to sell-not exactly a liquid investment.
If you buy a classic, keep it in close to original condition, and ride it. In several years you will probably not lose money-but I doubt that you will make a bundle either.
Stocks,bonds,etc. are investments-not old motorbikes. :laugh:
Ralph, this is my thinking too, but the most I've ever paid for a motorcycle was $4000 (does not include $$$ to get it road worthy!) and I tend to keep them along time. Heck, I keep everything a long time - t-shirts, shoes, washing machines, houses, 1984 Tercel. And I shouldn't need a return on investment for 15 to 20 years. So I was thinking "If I spend a little more on a motorcycle and keep it a long time can it really be an investment or am I fooling myself???" :grin:
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Shhhhhhhush. "Investment" is what we tell our wives when we want another vintage bike. Don't blow it.
Thanks Cam, I'll keep it on the down low. Actually I got it easy, my wife and I keep our finances separate except for house payments and some trade negotiations, and she makes more money than me so my money is my money. And she's a bit of a motorhead herself so she's actually an enabler. At least until she retires...
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Looks to me by your signature line that you already have 4 investment grade bikes. Ride them, buy more of the $4K rarities that you can ride, and enjoy.
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Looks to me by your signature line that you already have 4 investment grade bikes. Ride them, buy more of the $4K rarities that you can ride, and enjoy.
Well, I've had to put a little money and a lot of free labor to get those bikes where they are now! And that poor Monza has been a absolute money pit. It was misrepresented and I was too eager... :embarrassed:
Besides I was looking for a rationale to buy a classic I can't really afford! :grin:
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As Jay Leno admits, vintage bikes, cars generally are $ pits, just like old houses. Once in awhile someone get's lucky and you hear about them. Then you think, why not me? That's the sucker line. Unless you have more $ than you really need to live, give this maybe a pass. :wink:
I knew/rode with a deceased Guzzisti who rode new Indians when they were being sold who lived into his mid 80's last riding a Mille GT. He told me if he had known then that when they died @ 20K miles and he just left them wherever that was..........vs, what they were worth in the 90's, he never would have left them for junk! Such is life.
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As Jay Leno admits, vintage bikes, cars generally are $ pits, just like old houses. Once in awhile someone get's lucky and you hear about them. Then you think, why not me? That's the sucker line. Unless you have more $ than you really need to live, give this maybe a pass. :wink:
I knew/rode with a deceased Guzzisti who rode new Indians when they were being sold who lived into his mid 80's last riding a Mille GT. He told me if he had known then that when they died @ 20K miles and he just left them wherever that was..........vs, what they were worth in the 90's, he never would have left them for junk! Such is life.
Good advice. Leno ought to know. As for Indians: my Dad has a story from back before he had a car. Dad had spent his money on a Compagnolo Cinelli racing bicycle and on a ride had stopped for lunch in a cafe. A guy in the cafe finished his meal and went out to kick start his Indian and it would not catch. The guy kicked and kicked until he was so mad he stormed back into the cafe and yelled out that he would trade his Indian for Dad's bicycle straight across. Dad said no or stayed quiet and the guy went out and kicked on the Indian furiously until it burst into a roar and shot across the road and through a fence. So maybe your friend was right to leave them...
Thanks!
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Buying a classic certainly can work as a rider and an investment, but choosing the right bike is crucial. The average so-called classic may appreciate if the mileage is kept to a minimum, but very 'high end' bikes can be ridden without this concern since their rarity means they will sell even if they're in pieces in a box. There are certain bikes that will never depreciate.
My own 'high end' classic was ridden without regard to mileage. Bought seven years ago for the equivalent of US $25,000, I sold it recently for over four times the price. In the seven years I owned it I spent a pittance on keeping it roadworthy - I simply kept it very clean. Perhaps I was one of the 'lucky ones'? I prefer to think I bought wisely!
I have a couple of others that I use now on a regular basis - and one of these, too, has doubled in value since I bought it eight years ago. I've no doubt whatever that it will climb again over the next decade - whether I use it or not. So, buy the right bike and treat it well and you just might make a killing. I've certainly found buying classics is better than stashing cash in the bank!
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Now, ride something cool that won't depreciate much-or at least not by 50%/year-that's pretty easy. Until I bought new bikes this year I was actually ahead financially on my motorcycling, basically got them all for net zero.
That assumes of course that I don't count my maintenance time, tires etc.
THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It is also why, even the newer ones, I buy used. I can try out a lot of different bikes while loosing minimal to no money to depreciation.
I've had several vintage, or at least older bikes that I owned for a year or two, and put a few thousand miles not them, and then got about what I paid, sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less.
I paid $6,200 for my 2009 V7 Classic with 1,800 miles on it, rode it for 2 years and just over 8,000 miles it. I removed the center stand (for the V7R that I replaced it with) and sold it for $5,400. Not bad for two years/8k miles. The only money I had to put into it was maintenance and tires.
Shhhhhhhush. "Investment" is what we tell our wives when we want another vintage bike. Don't blow it.
:1: :thumb:
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I have convinced my wife that my motorcycle hobby is an investment. In reality I offset almost , if not ALL of my riding costs by buying and selling a couple of bikes ( 3 or 4...5 in a busy year) a year. If I buy them right I can ride them for a while and get all my money back plus a little.
Investment, not really. Allows me to ride 20 k miles a year for many years with not much real cost....priceless.
Being a motorcycle slut.. (I have a wandering eye for 2 wheel girlfriends) this model serves me well.
If I was looking for a real Motorcycle investments I would buy a scott flying squirrel but I would ruin the investment by riding it all over the place....
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(http://www.adamsheritage.info/images/heather.jpg)
About 20 years ago someone was selling one at the Classic Motorcycle Show in Maryland for something like $15K and my wife wanted me to buy it and I really should have listened to her. Oh well.
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/holy-grail-of-motorcycle-parts-fetch-300000-more-than-expected-at-uk-auction-20151019-gkd1ae.html
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I think timing is important. Rare and special exotica is always likely to hold it's value and appreciate, but catching the moment when certain models move from 'old bike' status to 'classic' status could earn good money. In the UK air cooled RD Yamahas are going for crazy prices. I've seen a few RD 400s go for over £6000. I sold one in the mid 90s for £600. Nostalgia for certain models can really take off. Then again, if something goes wrong you can spend a fortune.
Personally I think it would spoil my enjoyment if I started viewing a motorbike as an investment. I much prefer to see a well used bike with patina than a 'returned to new' rebuild. Strapping an old bag to an MV Agusta shows class.
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I was doing well till I bought the Buell . :grin:
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Collectibles as an investment are risky no matter what. Things go in and out of popularity. What is sought after today may not be in a couple of years. Add to that the wear and tear and nicks and dings you'll get from actually riding it and I'd say you're looking at a poor investment idea.
Better to think of it more as an investment in yourself. How much you'll value riding it. don't worry about whether you'll make or lose money down the road.
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I was doing well till I bought the Buell . :grin:
I wonder what a well sorted low mileage 2000 Buell might be worth in another 20 years? Can you wait that long?
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I have convinced my wife that my motorcycle hobby is an investment. In reality I offset almost , if not ALL of my riding costs by buying and selling a couple of bikes ( 3 or 4...5 in a busy year) a year. If I buy them right I can ride them for a while and get all my money back plus a little.
Investment, not really. Allows me to ride 20 k miles a year for many years with not much real cost....priceless.
Being a motorcycle slut.. (I have a wandering eye for 2 wheel girlfriends) this model serves me well.
If I was looking for a real Motorcycle investments I would buy a scott flying squirrel but I would ruin the investment by riding it all over the place....
"Motorcycle slut" .... I can relate. My buying and selling has helped subsidize my motorcycle habit, but, certainly doesn't pay for all of it.
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Buying a classic certainly can work as a rider and an investment, but choosing the right bike is crucial. The average so-called classic may appreciate if the mileage is kept to a minimum, but very 'high end' bikes can be ridden without this concern since their rarity means they will sell even if they're in pieces in a box. There are certain bikes that will never depreciate.
My own 'high end' classic was ridden without regard to mileage. Bought seven years ago for the equivalent of US $25,000, I sold it recently for over four times the price. In the seven years I owned it I spent a pittance on keeping it roadworthy - I simply kept it very clean. Perhaps I was one of the 'lucky ones'? I prefer to think I bought wisely!
I have a couple of others that I use now on a regular basis - and one of these, too, has doubled in value since I bought it eight years ago. I've no doubt whatever that it will climb again over the next decade - whether I use it or not. So, buy the right bike and treat it well and you just might make a killing. I've certainly found buying classics is better than stashing cash in the bank!
Wow! So, what was the bike you sold for the equivalent of $100k?
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Wow! So, what was the bike you sold for the equivalent of $100k?
While we're waiting, we can start a betting pool on what it might have been, assuming it's not some sort of Steve McQueen or Von Dutch relic.
What bike is worth about 4 times more than it was 7 years ago, starting at $25,000?
Brough-Superior SS80, maybe, the flathead Vtwin. I would almost say Vincent Black Shadow but it would have been hard to buy one for $25K even seven years ago.
Maybe a Crocker although they're generally in a higher category.
I'll go with the SS80.
Lannis
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I wonder what a well sorted low mileage 2000 Buell might be worth in another 20 years? Can you wait that long?
I'll be on the back door of 80 so maybe not, maybe my 77 Robin Moped?
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Great discussion. Agree you would have to buy the right bike and that is the gamble. That and not crashing it. Hard to justify the risk when mutual funds rise roughly 4-5%/year above inflation.
I would love to find the next classic in the barn but you probably only get one chance and mine's probably gone. I once found a Suzuki water buffalo in a garage and could've had it for free but I didn't know anything about it, don't like 2-strokes and didn't have a truck. I wanted the 4 leading shoe front brake, but the bike was given to someone else before I got my act together... You probably only get one chance...
I too want to know what bike Weevee sold! Lannis's list makes sense.
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Hi chaps. I really don't want to say too much here out of respect for the privacy of the bike's new owner. The bike can be viewed in one of my previous posts. Suffice to reveal that a 'classic' for which I paid $30,000 (..at today's currency exchange rate) I sold for four times the amount (..$120,000 +) seven years later. My point being that the right classic can be a great investment and a great rider - if you choose carefully.
The 'fly in the ointment' is, of course, that if a bike's resale value does reach silly heights it can become something of a liability lest you lock it away. The roads are filled with myopic motorists, and many a time I feared being shunted from behind whilst waiting at a junction or red light. When the owner's club's valuation (..for Agreed Value insurance purposes) lags behing the climbing market value, it can leave you vulnerable to huge losses if you ever need to make a claim. This is what happened in my case, and this is ultimately one of the main reasons why I sold the bike. I couldn't face not riding it, but each run eventually carried a $30,000 'factor of risk'. I'm not a wealthy man, so it was a risk I couldn't take.
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In more recent years, Ducati bevel twins have skyrockted. Values have gone up 3-5X in the last 8 years or so.
Who knows how much higher they will go.
The bevel singles are also going up quickly, esp. the Mach I, Dianna, Mk3, and Desmo models, some of which are now over $10k, heading into the teens. That doesn't sound like much after discussing a $120k bike, but, these singles could be had in decent shape for only a couple thousand 6-7 years ago, and project bikes for only a few hundred.
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Great discussion. Agree you would have to buy the right bike and that is the gamble. That and not crashing it. Hard to justify the risk when mutual funds rise roughly 4-5%/year above inflation.
I would love to find the next classic in the barn but you probably only get one chance and mine's probably gone. I once found a Suzuki water buffalo in a garage and could've had it for free but I didn't know anything about it, don't like 2-strokes and didn't have a truck. I wanted the 4 leading shoe front brake, but the bike was given to someone else before I got my act together... You probably only get one chance...
I too want to know what bike Weevee sold! Lannis's list makes sense.
Had a "barn fresh" BMW R69S given to me. By the time I got it restored it was almost worth what I had in it. Now it might be worth twice as much but I still don't consider it a true investment. However, It hasn't lost value and I can't put a price on the pleasure it has given me over the years. If you approach from this perspective you'll do fine. :thumb:
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...By the time I got it restored it was almost worth what I had in it......
THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^
I've walked away from many classic and vintage bikes after seeing them in person, often with the seller coming way down on the price.
My answer has often been, "If you gave it to me for free, the price is too high."
Sometimes they're too far gone to be economically restored.