Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: steven c on November 11, 2015, 08:34:04 AM
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Bmw entering the small bike market.
http://www.webbikeworld.com/BMW-motorcycles/2016-bmw-g-310-r/preview.htm
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Wonder how this will compare to the 390 Duke?
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Seems very Aprilia like.
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Surprised to see chain rather than belt drive.
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BMW made in India or China?
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Good. The more bikes in that category available the better. I hope there's a shift toward motorcycle being fun and inexpensive transportation, from status symbols and street legal race bikes.
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BMW made in India or China?
Developed in Munich by BMW Motorrad and produced in India in cooperation with partner TVS Motor Company.
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I like it but it won't replace my V7
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Good. The more bikes in that category available the better. I hope there's a shift toward motorcycle being fun and inexpensive transportation, from status symbols and street legal race bikes.
For sure , accessible performance , light weight , fun , what's not to like .
Dusty
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For sure , accessible performance , light weight , fun , what's not to like .
Dusty
The looks (and the chain).
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In my experience with bmw mc's, plus reading of other owners with serious electrical & mechanical problems, plus adding bmw's delinquency on over 3 million USD in NHTSA fines, I would not again own a bmw. Regardless of the faults it is mostly (in my view), poorly specified materials for the application and inadequate testing. Repeating failures have been in the quality of wiring and metals. There is also the rather well documented final drive problem; which seems to be mostly(?) an assembly issue. there are also repeating Getrag transmission issues.
BTW: Who the devil would design a permanently lubricated shaft driven final drive? In 2008, IIRC, bmw's final drives precluded a gear oil drain port! Brilliant! Can that be logically explained?
What became of those bikes that were of such high safety risk (2 - 3 years ago), that bmw issued a personal worldwide stop, do not ride order to every owner? bmw offered to take those bikes back on purchase of a new bike; or let it sit in your garage until they had a fix! how long did that take?
bmw's response to warrantee issues has always been very poor. Will being assembled in India change any of that? Unlikely.
Along with risk the cost of bmw mc ownership is very high, IMO. We all try to understand our risks every time we ride. I see no reason to compound the risks we take. Good fortune, R3~
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The looks (and the chain).
It isn't styled for old guys , and modern chains are reliable , don't you own a chain drive bike ?
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It isn't styled for old guys , and modern chains are reliable , don't you own a chain drive bike ?
Well, technically it's Jenn's, and it's my least favorite bike in the fleet.
Now that you mention it, I texted Jay last week after I got home from a spirited ride on the Stone.
Seems right before a favorite road that leads through some of the few curves we have around here I came across a Duc 796.
He quickly charged to a position just off my tail and stayed there UNTIL WE HIT THE CURVES.
At the end I pulled over and waited for him. :evil:
Yeah, I'll take my slow shaft-drive smallblock thanks. :thumb:
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Bum W hasn't been in this area since the R-27. This one is about 75 pounds lighter with nearly twice the power.
It should be interesting to see ride reports and reliability reports, but-
And here is the big butt, it's still typical BMW ugly. Come to think of it, there are very few good looking motorcycles being made these days.
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I'll bet it's expensive.
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I'll bet it's expensive.
I'll guess it'll be competitive with others like the Ninja 300 and the KTM 390, around $5,000-$5,500.
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I don't like it. An Indian made mini BMW. what's the point? Cheapest way of owning something with a white/blue propeller badge?
Id be all for it if it was a small displacement boxer with the same quality lever as the bigger ones only smaller and simplified.
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No advantage over the competition, and probably at least a thousand bucks higher price to boot!
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@ BRIO -- Germans don't do "simple" any more.
@ GearheadGrrrl -- yep, "preserving owner exclusivity". :evil:
cr
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Tough to imagine it being a sales success in the U.S., especially considering its Japanese competition, but kudos to BMW for introducing it. Like every other manufacturer, they're challenged to attract new riders to the fray. I imagine the build quality will be as good as anything else.
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The looks (and the chain).
Everybody has different tastes. It's not a great looking bike but compared to, say a monster, well, it looks better to me.
Beauty is in the eye of your own head.
As for the chain, I would have thought belt, but a chain isn't the end of the world as some would believe. I don't think this is a touring bike.
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Tough to imagine it being a sales success in the U.S., especially considering its Japanese competition, but kudos to BMW for introducing it. Like every other manufacturer, they're challenged to attract new riders to the fray. I imagine the build quality will be as good as anything else.
THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I can't see it being price competitive with the Japanese bikes in this segment.
I certainly don't see anyone shopping for a bike in this segment paying BMW prices.
But, yes, kudos to BMW for trying. I would say that this is more of a way for BMW to penetrate other markets where small CC bikes are more mainstream. It is too much of a niche for this market.
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Everybody has different tastes. It's not a great looking bike but compared to, say a monster, well, it looks better to me.
Beauty is in the eye of your own head.
As for the chain, I would have thought belt, but a chain isn't the end of the world as some would believe. I don't think this is a touring bike.
I was just answering Dusty's question.
But if you want to discuss it further I think a chain is a mistake in this segment of the market. Small/light/cheap will more likely sell to a newbie who probably knows nothing about caring for chains and/or to someone who can't put it in a garage at night so it will sit in the elements.
I don't love it or hate it personally. To me it's kinda meh.
But I like that they're doing it.
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I'm interested, but then, I really like light bikes. Love, love, love my 2012 Ninja 250. This little BMW would have less weight, more horsepower, and probably better suspension than the two-fiddy. Sounds good to me.
The little BMW potentially has a decent range too. Supposedly 70 mpg with a 2.9 gallon tank, so that's about 200 miles max.
Two big questions though. How buzzy is it on the freeway? The little Ninja is very smooth, so I don't hesitate to take it on long trips if I want to.
And of course price. How much will BMW charge for this little thing?
Will be interesting to read the road tests.
I for one am glad that we are seeing the manufacturers offer interesting new stuff in the 250/300 cc category.
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Yeah , the styling thing is pretty subjective , Lots of designs that others fawn over leave me cold , and several bikes that are almost universally panned on WG are very attractive to my eye . As for the price , well , the S1000RR is actually cheaper than some of its Japanese competition . Quality and warranty issues , hmm , BMW doesn't have nearly the problem that some believe, and they have some huge sales successes recently . To paraphrase our famous mechanic from OZ , the airhead is dead .
Dusty
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I'm interested, but then, I really like light bikes. Love, love, love my 2012 Ninja 250. This little BMW would have less weight, more horsepower, and probably better suspension than the two-fiddy.
Will it, the article is most certainly quoting crankshaft hp, though I guess there's not as much loss with a chain.
And isn't the weight they're quoting probably dry?
So BMW < 34 hp (@9500 rpm) and > 350#dry vs. Ninja 250 26 rwhp & 383# wet
There might not be much of a difference at all.
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Except the Ninja (and Yamaha) are twins, not singles. The buyer of the BMW may not care about this, but I'd expect the magazine reviews to take notice and critique accordingly.
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Will it, the article is most certainly quoting crankshaft hp, though I guess there's not as much loss with a chain.
And isn't the weight they're quoting probably dry?
So BMW < 34 hp (@9500 rpm) and > 350#dry vs. Ninja 250 26 rwhp & 383# wet
There might not be much of a difference at all.
20+% more HP and 8% less weight , hmm , I think that will be noticeable .
Dusty
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Except the Ninja (and Yamaha) are twins, not singles. The buyer of the BMW may not care about this, but I'd expect the magazine reviews to take notice and critique accordingly.
From what I've been reading from owners, some of which who have had multiple bikes from this market segment, the Yamaha R3 is the current leader of the pack.
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KTM seems to be doing well even though their bikes are more expensive than the Japanese bikes.
Actually, the KTM 390 is about the same price as the Ninja 300, give or take a little, depending on options. I'd think that once they're made in India, the price premium for the BMW name should be pretty small.
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So BMW < 34 hp (@9500 rpm) and > 350#dry vs. Ninja 250 26 rwhp & 383# wet
There might not be much of a difference at all.
the way I read it the 348 lb weight is road ready...ie wet. Now that might only be 1/2 a tank of gas but with only 11 liters of fuel the gas is not going to be a deal breaker. This sucker better get 80 mpg or better with that light a fuel load.
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I have never liked the feel of single-cylinder street bikes, just too buzzy. And I don't like chain drive. I don't care how much better modern chains have become; you still have to apply some messy goop to them every 300 - 500 miles if you want them to last. No thanks....
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Spray chain wax isn't too bad. I prefer the shaft on my Guzzi, but I'm not selling my other motorcycles just because of their chains.
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Did I read the article right when it said it's "BMW's first roadster under 500cc"?
They made a 250 single for years that thousands rode, as well as the 450cc R45 that was the basis for the R65 that many of us owned .....
Lannis
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KTM seems to be doing well even though their bikes are more expensive than the Japanese bikes. The 390s are made in India as well, but have had some teething problems (broken wheels and stuff). When I look at the BMW ads, I wonder where they found all the 4'6" models/riders...
Models are all women, who these bikes are made for.
Water cooled, single cylinder, exhaust out the rear instead of the front, DOHC, horizontal split engine case, definitely different.
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Models are all women, who these bikes are made for.
I've noticed that on most of these new small bikes, there's too much inconsistency in the front-end protrusion, they chatter constantly at high speeds, most of the rear ends are too soft and wobble too much, the intake is placed way to close to the exhaust, and the maintenance costs are outrageous. Hmm, that ought to tell us something ....
Lannis
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I've noticed that on most of these new small bikes, there's too much inconsistency in the front-end protrusion, they chatter constantly at high speeds, most of the rear ends are too soft and wobble too much, the intake is placed way to close to the exhaust, and the maintenance costs are outrageous. Hmm, that ought to tell us something ....
Lannis
Once again, my deduction that Lannis is at heart a bad person proves on the mark....
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They call 31" a low seat :shocked: Depends on the individual I suppose but it's way too high for me.
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I've noticed that on most of these new small bikes, there's too much inconsistency in the front-end protrusion, they chatter constantly at high speeds, most of the rear ends are too soft and wobble too much, the intake is placed way to close to the exhaust, and the maintenance costs are outrageous. Hmm, that ought to tell us something ....
Lannis
On this motor I believe the intake is on the front, opposite of normal.
Yamaha has made a w/c 450 single MX motor w/rear exhaust for a few years now.
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They call 31" a low seat :shocked: Depends on the individual I suppose but it's way too high for me.
Wow, my 5'-3" daughter finds my Ninja 250 to be a good fit, and can easily get both feet down at at stop. Not flat footed, but not straining to touch. Its seat height is about 31".
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On this motor I believe the intake is on the front, opposite of normal.
I hate to say it, but in the current context, I could keep rolling on that foreEVer, but I won't .... ! :grin:
Lannis
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20+% more HP and 8% less weight , hmm , I think that will be noticeable .
Dusty
More than likely your math is faulty.
No common denominators. :kiss:
As I said BMW's quoted figures are likely DRY and CRANK.
MEANING IT WILL BE HEAVIER AND MAKE LESS POWER.
So I'm guessing the difference will be much smaller than your math suggests.
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the way I read it the 348 lb weight is road ready...ie wet. Now that might only be 1/2 a tank of gas but with only 11 liters of fuel the gas is not going to be a deal breaker. This sucker better get 80 mpg or better with that light a fuel load.
Is that what DIN standards require?
Is that relatively recent?
There was a time no manufacturer gave you road ready weight.
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More than likely your math is faulty.
No common denominators. :kiss:
As I said BMW's quoted figures are likely DRY and CRANK.
MEANING IT WILL BE HEAVIER AND MAKE LESS POWER.
So I'm guessing the difference will be much smaller than your math suggests.
My math is waaaayyyy better than your spelling :evil:
Dusty
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My math is waaaayyyy better than your spelling :evil:
Dusty
Way
Easy
Wart
What?
That icky room ugh, only ton, argh, only took four tries to get the phone to type! :laugh:
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:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Dusty
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Kev:
I'm inferring that BMW is referencing a wet weight based on the spec sheet which says "DIN unladen weight, road ready."
Of course, we really need to wait for a competent review that tells us the true weight, how that was measured, the wheel vs. crank HP, whether it buzzes on the highway.
I'm intrigued, and happy that more manufacturers are working on these little small bores. But it wouldn't surprise me at all if the price is too high, and it's too buzzy for my tastes.
And as other posters have mentioned, BMW quality control is a bit iffy, and this would be a brand new model they want beta tested.
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Way
Easy
Wart
What?
That icky room ugh, only ton, argh, only took four tries to get the phone to type! :laugh:
:1:
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Thank goodness they didn't shove a dramatically detuned 800cc twin in that thing and call it an F300...
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Kev:
I'm inferring that BMW is referencing a wet weight based on the spec sheet which says "DIN unladen weight, road ready."
Of course, we really need to wait for a competent review that tells us the true weight, how that was measured, the wheel vs. crank HP, whether it buzzes on the highway.
I'm intrigued, and happy that more manufacturers are working on these little small bores. But it wouldn't surprise me at all if the price is too high, and it's too buzzy for my tastes.
And as other posters have mentioned, BMW quality control is a bit iffy, and this would be a brand new model they want beta tested.
I see what you're saying.
All good points.
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That icky room ugh, only ton, argh, only took four tries to get the phone to type! :laugh:
I thought that the swipe input stuff on the Android phone was so great!
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Rather than give my $$$ for a "BMW" made in India, I'd far rather own a Royal Enfield made in India.
(http://www.dansher.com/bikepix/BMW_G310_R.jpg)
(http://www.dansher.com/bikepix/RE_500_GP.jpg)
'Geezer
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Whatever happened to clean, flowing lines and engines that look like their designers took great pride in making works of art instead of the praying mantis ass-in-the-air look with the motive unit so ugly it has to be hidden behind plastic? If I want 'edgy' I'll drink 6 cups of coffee. Ok so I'm an old fart. Get off my lawn!
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Thread drift alert, my apologies... I have yet to see a single Royal Enfield Continental GT on the road. Anyone else?
On second thought, no need to respond. Just making an observation.
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My 1965 R-27 has only 18bhp, but it certainly LOOKS like a motorcycle, not an insect..
Ralph
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All you need with a chain driven bike is a can of lube and less time than it takes to read this post to maintain it. Don't touch a belt drive or shaft drive at all and see how long it lasts.
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My R 26 had about 16 HP and with Earles forks was well over 400 pounds weight but it was a handsome motorcycle
and unmistakably airhead BMW.
I couldn't win a drag race but could hold 120 on the Kilometer speedometer, which is 74.5 MPH.
And I could hold it wide open all day with no problems.
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Guys, the Indian market is HUGE for motorcycles.
USA market is not even a drop in the bucket. Neither is Europe (maybe 2 or 3 drops in the bucket).
People in India use Motorcycles as a daily transportation and there are LOTS of people in India.
Bikes sold in India HAVE to be made in India. Importing a bike is very expensive because of duty.
There are lots of bikes available and there is a pecking order for these bikes. Royal Enfield, which was a niche company for decades has now become the number one prestige bike in India. There is a long waiting list to buy a 350 cc enfield.
In India, there is also a pecking order for cars, with BMW and Mercedes being at the top.
350cc is about the top that Indian roads, traffic and speed can take. Fuel economy is very very important.
There is a well developed infrastructure in India to build quality bikes.
Given these facts, it makes total sense for BMW to make this bike in India, where it can compete for top prestige bike in India. Its name alone will carry weight for those looking to drive a BMW.
If it sells a few in the USA, that is just icing on the cake. I don't think BMW cares either way, they want the Indian market prestige segment.
Just my cents. I did grow up in India and I did ride scooters there growing up.
:grin:
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Well, technically it's Jenn's, and it's my least favorite bike in the fleet.
Now that you mention it, I texted Jay last week after I got home from a spirited ride on the Stone.
Seems right before a favorite road that leads through some of the few curves we have around here I came across a Duc 796.
He quickly charged to a position just off my tail and stayed there UNTIL WE HIT THE CURVES.
At the end I pulled over and waited for him. :evil:
Yeah, I'll take my slow shaft-drive smallblock thanks. :thumb:
Do you think maybe he is just not as talented a rider as you and couldn`t keep of up with your near MotoGP star like speeds? :rolleyes:
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Guys, the Indian market is HUGE for motorcycles.
USA market is not even a drop in the bucket. Neither is Europe (maybe 2 or 3 drops in the bucket).
People in India use Motorcycles as a daily transportation and there are LOTS of people in India.
Bikes sold in India HAVE to be made in India. Importing a bike is very expensive because of duty.
There are lots of bikes available and there is a pecking order for these bikes. Royal Enfield, which was a niche company for decades has now become the number one prestige bike in India. There is a long waiting list to buy a 350 cc enfield.
In India, there is also a pecking order for cars, with BMW and Mercedes being at the top.
350cc is about the top that Indian roads, traffic and speed can take. Fuel economy is very very important.
There is a well developed infrastructure in India to build quality bikes.
Given these facts, it makes total sense for BMW to make this bike in India, where it can compete for top prestige bike in India. Its name alone will carry weight for those looking to drive a BMW.
If it sells a few in the USA, that is just icing on the cake. I don't think BMW cares either way, they want the Indian market prestige segment.
Just my cents. I did grow up in India and I did ride scooters there growing up.
:grin:
This makes sense. And I find the snob appeal for BMW's to be humorous.
When I was in India in 1990, all I saw was cheap Tata? scooters and a few Enfields with the 350 being the biggest bike.
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Do you think maybe he is just not as talented a rider as you and couldn`t keep of up with your near MotoGP star like speeds? :rolleyes:
Gotta agree. No offense to you small block guys.. I'm one of them.. but small block handling is not in the same league as a duck. That said, it's not the name on the hammer, it's the guy swinging it. :smiley:
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Do you think maybe he is just not as talented a rider as you and couldn`t keep of up with your near MotoGP star like speeds? :rolleyes:
I thought maybe that post would draw you out to troll.
The primary point was, once again, that 99% of riders don't use up the capability of their bikes on the streets, ESPECIALLY the "sportbikes".
Secondary point was in support for bikes of this category, even if I don't particularly care for the looks of the BMW, but I'm sure functionally it will be a great tool.
That was all.
Now back under your bridge. :boozing:
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I thought maybe that post would draw you out to troll.
The primary point was, once again, that 99% of riders don't use up the capability of their bikes on the streets, ESPECIALLY the "sportbikes".
Secondary point was in support for bikes of this category, even if I don't particularly care for the looks of the BMW, but I'm sure functionally it will be a great tool.
That was all.
Now back under your bridge. :boozing:
Was going to comment that if I had been on that Ducati ... :grin:
Dusty
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Was going to comment that if I had been on that Ducati ... :grin:
Dusty
Hey, I was going to remark that I was a 1%er; albeit, the slowest 1%!!! Can't outrun anybody, despite what davedel says!!!!
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Good, bad or ugly, at least BMW did something and they will sell them. There is do and there is talk, they did.
Someone who gets into that small BMW is a good candidate to upsell later on. It takes sales to provide revenue so that improvements can be made. Some companies figure it out, some do not.
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Was going to comment that if I had been on that Ducati ... :grin:
Dusty
I'd have purposely ridden through a patch of sand around the first corner... :kiss:
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Guys, the Indian market is HUGE...
Oh, REGIONAL Indian.
:grin:
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Oh, REGIONAL Indian.
:grin:
I dunno , we do pretty good selling Indian trinkets to tourists here in Oklahoma , although unfortunately , most are now made in that other India :laugh: Geez that Colombo guy was lost :rolleyes:
Dusty
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There is a well developed infrastructure in India to build quality bikes.
I'm sure that's true, but up to now we haven't seen anything but low-quality, bottom-of-the-barrel, lowest-price-possible products from India, whether it be Bajaj scooters, Mahindra tractors or ... well, we won't say anything about the cars because NO ONE in the USA would put up with it.
Part of the problem is the quality specification that American retailers give to Indian manufacturers. It's generally a three-part quality spec.
1) Must be made as cheaply as possible.
2) Must be the lowest-cost item possible.
3) Must cost fewer dollars than any other source.
Nothing about finish, nothing about metallurgy, nothing about durability, nothing about function. And that's generally what we get.
If Indian manufacturers can realize that Americans are not Indians, and are not desperate for the lowest-cost item they can get even if it takes a local blacksmith to keep it going, but realize that they are competing against the Japanese and Europeans for sales, then I'm sure that they can "get their minds right", put a quality product on the market, and get on with it!!
Lannis
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I dunno , we do pretty good selling Indian trinkets to tourists here in Oklahoma , although unfortunately , most are now made in that other India :laugh: Geez that Colombo guy was lost :rolleyes:
Dusty
This guy?
(http://www.gstatic.com/tv/thumb/tvbanners/184135/p184135_b_v7_ac.jpg)
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[quotee author=jas67 link=topic=80029.msg1259620#msg1259620 date=1447346554]
This guy?
(http://www.gstatic.com/tv/thumb/tvbanners/184135/p184135_b_v7_ac.jpg)
[/quote]
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Even with only one eye , that Columbo guy never got as lost as the other Columbus :laugh: "Aw hell , just call it India, no one will ever know the difference" :grin:
Dusty
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I thought maybe that post would draw you out to troll.
The primary point was, once again, that 99% of riders don't use up the capability of their bikes on the streets, ESPECIALLY the "sportbikes".
Secondary point was in support for bikes of this category, even if I don't particularly care for the looks of the BMW, but I'm sure functionally it will be a great tool.
That was all.
But you had to disrespect another rider you know nothing about to get your point across. :blank:
Now back under your bridge. :boozing:
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But you had to disrespect another rider you know nothing about to get your point across.
And in your mind the disrespect was where exactly?
Because I was quicker than him on a stretch of road?
Because I waited for him?
Because I anonymously took some pleasure that my slower, less modern bike was quicker that day?
Perhaps you'd not jump to such silly conclusions if you had all the facts.
He came up behind me FAST and got closer than I'd typically expect a stranger. So much do that I sped up about 10 mph faster than I usually take that road. But I ALSO moved over to the right 1/3 of the lane in case he wanted to pass on the long straights. He didn't. I just maintained that pace once we hit the curves and it became evident he wasn't going to pass.
When he caught up after I stopped we chatted for a few minutes. I told him what a nice bike he had and he excitedly remarked how he rarely sees another Italian bike in the area other than a black and silver V7 with stripes and a fairing. I told him that was likely Cam. He mentioned he uses Ferracci as a dealership but doesn't like them. He was unaware of Eurosports in Coopersburg and said he would check them out (good since he was thinking about trading the Monster in a Multistrada).
No disrespect was shown except what you seem anxious to find.
:rolleyes:
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The primary point was, once again, that 99% of riders don't use up the capability of their bikes on the streets, ESPECIALLY the "sportbikes".
That statement is also true of most cars , 4x4's and the millions of 3/4 and one ton pick up trucks that primarily are transportation for just the driver...
In America power is King.... :grin:
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Thread drift alert, my apologies... I have yet to see a single Royal Enfield Continental GT on the road. Anyone else?
On second thought, no need to respond. Just making an observation.
We have quite a few around here in Massachusetts. It actually makes sense here along with the other Enfield models-lots of small twisty roads, mostly short hops for anyone out sport touring for a day.
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That statement is also true of most cars , 4x4's and the millions of 3/4 and one ton pick up trucks that primarily are transportation for just the driver...
In America power is King.... :grin:
True, and that's fine. I'm not telling anyone what to buy.
Ironically I just had to decide between a 4x4 (Wrangler/Colorado/Taco) and a Sporty car (STI, Focus RS).
Neither set was top dogs in power, though the cars were up there.
The trucks seemed practical, but I figured I just don't use a pickup enough.
So I went with the fun option. Though it WILL see some off-road use (OBX beaches, Wharton Forest trails) it will primarily be a "Mall Crawler" which is why I went for the nice interior and toys, and not the electronically locking front and rear diffs.
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And in your mind the disrespect was where exactly?
Because I was quicker than him on a stretch of road?
Because I waited for him?
Because I anonymously took some pleasure that my slower, less modern bike was quicker that day?
Perhaps you'd not jump to such silly conclusions if you had all the facts.
He came up behind me FAST and got closer than I'd typically expect a stranger. So much do that I sped up about 10 mph faster than I usually take that road. But I ALSO moved over to the right 1/3 of the lane in case he wanted to pass on the long straights. He didn't. I just maintained that pace once we hit the curves and it became evident he wasn't going to pass.
When he caught up after I stopped we chatted for a few minutes. I told him what a nice bike he had and he excitedly remarked how he rarely sees another Italian bike in the area other than a black and silver V7 with stripes and a fairing. I told him that was likely Cam. He mentioned he uses Ferracci as a dealership but doesn't like them. He was unaware of Eurosports in Coopersburg and said he would check them out (good since he was thinking about trading the Monster in a Multistrada).
No disrespect was shown except what you seem anxious to find.
:rolleyes:
Funny. If his Duc was white, I saw him ride by at 532/563 while I was finishing up a ride with a buddy on his new R1200RT. I was on the Ambo at the time, so we must have crossed paths before.
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True, and that's fine. I'm not telling anyone what to buy.
Ironically I just had to decide between a 4x4 (Wrangler/Colorado/Taco) and a Sporty car (STI, Focus RS).
Neither set was top dogs in power, though the cars were up there.
The trucks seemed practical, but I figured I just don't use a pickup enough.
So I went with the fun option. Though it WILL see some off-road use (OBX beaches, Wharton Forest trails) it will primarily be a "Mall Crawler" which is why I went for the nice interior and toys, and not the electronically locking front and rear diffs.
So you got the Jeep? Now you need to jack up that puppy and get some big noisy tires :grin: On bikes I like something that can accelerate briskly without full throttle and rowing through the gears.
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Funny. If his Duc was white, I saw him ride by at 532/563 while I was finishing up a ride with a buddy on his new R1200RT. I was on the Ambo at the time, so we must have crossed paths before.
Actually black with red frame. But I picked him up not far from there crossing 72 on Savoy, heading for the quarry. I was turning onto Savoy from 72 going that same direction and he crossed after me. He was on my butt till the turns at the quarry, and then again right after the stop sign, but after that he quickly disappeared for a bit.
So you got the Jeep? Now you need to jack up that puppy and get some big noisy tires :grin: On bikes I like something that can accelerate briskly without full throttle and rowing through the gears.
Well, it's on the assembly line. Should be here in a few more weeks.
I at least went for the 3.73 gearing and LSD rear (and of course the 6-speed, despite reports of it being antiquated).
So it should do a decent job stock, which it will stay for a while.
I get the rush of accelerating without excessive rowing. But I also like using a higher percentage of the vehicle than not (especially a bike) if that makes any sense.
It's actually part of my decision to forgoe the RS - 350 hp, AWD, with a drift mode... I'd probably get myself in trouble with that.
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Well dang , was really hoping Kev had purchased the Taco , although my understanding is that the new ones aren't built in Mexico , the plant was moved to Texas :shocked: :laugh:
Dusty
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Well dang , was really hoping Kev had purchased the Taco , although my understanding is that the new ones aren't built in Mexico , the plant was moved to Texas :shocked: :laugh:
Dusty
That new Taco is pretty damn nice. Have you seen it's crawl control feature? It can dig itself out of sand up to both axles. The wheels turn slowly building up sand underneath them, it's freaky.
I thought they've been made in the US for a long time.
I actually keep a spreadsheet tracking my lifetime of vehicle purchases, $ spent on domestic/domestically built products vs. imports. Separate categories for cars and bikes.
The numbers in both categories are slightly higher on domestic products. But I'm at a pivotal point in my life where the next purchase of each will sway the numbers heavily that direction, so maybe it's good I didn't go with the STI.
If I had to predict though, the bike totals will sway the other way in the next few years.
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I'm sure that's true, but up to now we haven't seen anything but low-quality, bottom-of-the-barrel, lowest-price-possible products from India, whether it be Bajaj scooters, Mahindra tractors or ... well, we won't say anything about the cars because NO ONE in the USA would put up with it.
Part of the problem is the quality specification that American retailers give to Indian manufacturers. It's generally a three-part quality spec.
1) Must be made as cheaply as possible.
2) Must be the lowest-cost item possible.
3) Must cost fewer dollars than any other source.
Nothing about finish, nothing about metallurgy, nothing about durability, nothing about function. And that's generally what we get.
If Indian manufacturers can realize that Americans are not Indians, and are not desperate for the lowest-cost item they can get even if it takes a local blacksmith to keep it going, but realize that they are competing against the Japanese and Europeans for sales, then I'm sure that they can "get their minds right", put a quality product on the market, and get on with it!!
Lannis
Yes, what you are saying makes sense if you look at the Indian manufacturing sector up to 2005. It has come a long way since.
Rajeev Bajaj, who I went to school with, stopped making scooters several years ago, all they make now are motorcycles.
Indian made cars and motorcycles use state of the art tooling, machining and metals. They are now exported all over the world. The manufacturing there is now world class.
Indian "roads" and horrendous traffic put a strain on bikes and cars that you cannot believe. They only build small cars and bikes, because of traffic conditions and gas prices across the world markets where they export. The cars and bikes they build there would not be practical on our highways with our higher speeds.
Also as I said before, I don't think the USA motorcycle market (which is shrinking BTW) matters to anyone in India or even in Europe. The Indian manufacturers are not going to build big bikes just for a few hundred in sales every year.
Thankfully, Honda, Suzuki and Kawasaki do build big bikes because they have a tradition from the 1960-s. they have invested in the tooling. I doubt if any new venture can survive building only big bikes (and by big I mean over 500 cc).
Mahindra tractors sell all over the world too now, including here in the good ole USA.
You can buy them in Oklahoma. Lots of farmers here use them.
Regarding your comment that Americans are not Indians (contrary to what Columbus thought :laugh:) and that Indians should try to figure out what Americans want, I have the following observation. I have lived in the USA more than half my life, and I regret to say that we need to get off our high horse and come to terms that we don't matter as much anymore in the world as we did say 20 years ago. All the growth in the worlds economy is in Asia and Africa.
:grin:
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That new Taco is pretty damn nice. Have you seen it's crawl control feature? It can dig itself out of sand up to both axles. The wheels turn slowly building up sand underneath them, it's freaky.
That is freaky..does it also turn the steering wheels slowly side to side using the front axle castor to raise and lower the vehicle to shift the weight? :wink:
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Akilesh states , "Even in Oklahoma" , where even the Indians approve of Mahindra :laugh: Yeah , we have a couple of India Enfields here in Muskogee , and the local farmers own Mahindra tractors in fair numbers . We are still waiting on that $2K TATA however :grin:
Dusty
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That is freaky..does it also turn the steering wheels slowly side to side using the front axle castor to raise and lower the vehicle to shift the weight? :wink:
Nope, just uses extremely fine wheel speed control. See for yourself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19BNRvuNLWE
At 1:40 he puts it in 2WD to bury the rear.
Then at 2:30 he pits it back in 4WD to bury the front.
THEN at 2:50 he activates crawl control, takes his foot off the accelerator and brake and gives control to the ECM, then the truck digs itself out.
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Akilesh states , "Even in Oklahoma" , where even the Indians approve of Mahindra :laugh: Yeah , we have a couple of India Enfields here in Muskogee , and the local farmers own Mahindra tractors in fair numbers . We are still waiting on that $2K TATA however :grin:
Dusty
Dusty, Yeah the TATA Nano costs more than $2k even in India. I think it costs around $5k. it is a very low end vehicle.
Would be useless here.
:laugh:
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Dusty, Yeah the TATA Nano costs more than $2k even in India. I think it costs around $5k. it is a very low end vehicle.
Would be useless here.
:laugh:
Kind of an Indian version of the Le Car :laugh: Still , for $5K ...maybe they could be sold at Tractor Supply .
Dusty
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Nope, just uses extremely fine wheel speed control. See for yourself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19BNRvuNLWE
At 1:40 he puts it in 2WD to bury the rear.
Then at 2:30 he pits it back in 4WD to bury the front.
THEN at 2:50 he activates crawl control, takes his foot off the accelerator and brake and gives control to the ECM, then the truck digs itself out.
I'd like to see what it can do on level ground. He got it stuck on a steep sandy uphill slope, and got it unstuck in the downhill direction, using the hill to help. I do agree that careful, slow and steady turning of all four wheels is a great ability, but that demo was somewhat bogus.
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I'd like to see what it can do on level ground. He got it stuck on a steep sandy uphill slope, and got it unstuck in the downhill direction, using the hill to help. I do agree that careful, slow and steady turning of all four wheels is a great ability, but that demo was somewhat bogus.
True, it did help him back out at the very end. But you saw the video, it dug itself straight up and off the axles first, and THAT had nothing to do with the slope. I still think it could be pretty impressive.
Actually I think my buddy with the house (we use) in the OBX dunes should get one (he was thinking of replacing his old dune vehicle anyway).
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A skilled driver using low range can do the same thing..Need to use that in mud to really test it..The key is a skilled driver and too many want to do the act without taking the time to learn...But it's still an interesting feature and a great sales gimmick...
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True, it did help him back out at the very end. But you saw the video, it dug itself straight up and off the axles first, and THAT had nothing to do with the slope. I still think it could be pretty impressive.
I think it had a lot to do with the slope. The slope gave him a rearward helping force equal to the weight of the truck times the sine of the slope angle. If that was a 9 degree grade, he had somewhere around 800 lbs. helping him back up. When I watched, I was hoping he'd try getting out uphill, but I was disappointed. At least I'd like to see the test done on level sand. Maybe chain the bumper to a fixed object and spin the wheels until it gets buried to the axles. Then unchain it and see if it digs itself out.
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Some interesting drift , we started from BMW's new little bike and ended up talking about some new fangled 4 wheel drive system :grin: We might need a program :laugh:
Dusty
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Mahindra tractors sell all over the world too now, including here in the good ole USA.
You can buy them in Oklahoma. Lots of farmers here use them.
Regarding your comment that Americans are not Indians (contrary to what Columbus thought :laugh:) and that Indians should try to figure out what Americans want, I have the following observation. I have lived in the USA more than half my life, and I regret to say that we need to get off our high horse and come to terms that we don't matter as much anymore in the world as we did say 20 years ago. All the growth in the worlds economy is in Asia and Africa.
:grin:
IF Indians want to figure out what Americans want to support 10% of their manufacturing output, they'll be able to do it. But if they don't care, that's OK too.
To be honest, I (and most Americans) are not on any "high horse" regarding what Indians and Africans think of us, or what we need. We've never needed Indian products for the highways, and I doubt that we ever will.
What India might produce for their home market, or for Africa, has little or no relation to what Americans want (or need) for THEIR highways. Asian needs (cheap beaters for horrible traffic, horrible roads, and no professional servicing) are not the same as American needs. As far as the "fast-growing African economy", we'll see. I don't think that's the way it's going, long term.
And I know people who bought (to their everlasting regret) Mahindra tractors. Suffice it to say that I won't be buying one for my little operation here ... !
Lannis
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My Indian built scooter still runs great with absolutely no trouble after 11 seasons.
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IF Indians want to figure out what Americans want to support 10% of their manufacturing output, they'll be able to do it. But if they don't care, that's OK too.
To be honest, I (and most Americans) are not on any "high horse" regarding what Indians and Africans think of us, or what we need. We've never needed Indian products for the highways, and I doubt that we ever will.
What India might produce for their home market, or for Africa, has little or no relation to what Americans want (or need) for THEIR highways. Asian needs (cheap beaters for horrible traffic, horrible roads, and no professional servicing) are not the same as American needs. As far as the "fast-growing African economy", we'll see. I don't think that's the way it's going, long term.
And I know people who bought (to their everlasting regret) Mahindra tractors. Suffice it to say that I won't be buying one for my little operation here ... !
Lannis
Yes, the reason I posted earlier was because there seemed to be some sense that BMW may be trying to produce an entry level bike for aspiring motorcyclists here in the USA and Europe. My take on the situation was that BMW is likely trying to produce a LUXURY bike for Asia and perhaps Africa. I doubt if they are bothered with attracting entry level riders here or in Europe. Anyway, just my opinion.
:grin:
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35 year old memories of carrying a can of PJ1 chain lube in a separate pack then buying a thumper BMW in today's dollars - no thanks.
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I'm interested, but then, I really like light bikes. Love, love, love my 2012 Ninja 250. This little BMW would have less weight, more horsepower, and probably better suspension than the two-fiddy. Sounds good to me.
The KTM Duke 390 is hardly beatable in this respect.
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.But it's still an interesting feature and a great sales gimmick...
Yep. And at $42,000 for a new Tacoma I can easily keep clear of those bury the axles situations in a regular 4X4.
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Yes, the reason I posted earlier was because there seemed to be some sense that BMW may be trying to produce an entry level bike for aspiring motorcyclists here in the USA and Europe. My take on the situation was that BMW is likely trying to produce a LUXURY bike for Asia and perhaps Africa. I doubt if they are bothered with attracting entry level riders here or in Europe. Anyway, just my opinion.
:grin:
My opinion too. :thumb:
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Yep. And at $42,000 for a new Tacoma I can easily keep clear of those bury the axles situations in a regular 4X4.
Yes, cause you're perfect. :bow: Well, I guess the difference is that I'm not. :boozing:
Look, it's a NEAT FEATURE. You don't want it fine.
But I'd sure like to have something like that if I hit the dunes on the way to the OBX house at 3:00 am with a truck full of sleeping toddlers. It sure would beat pulling them out into the cold sand and waiting for a tow truck SHOULD I GET STUCK.
Now I haven't gotten stuck yet, the Jeep has been fantastic. But this summer I saw more stuck 4x4's than ever before and I got close a couple of times (once trying to pull someone else out). Sure some might have been the drivers, but the sand was so dry and loose I bet some of them couldn't have been saved just by driver savvy.
In the end I didn't buy the Taco for other reasons, but I spent more on the Wrangler than I priced out the loaded Taco with crawl control so that wasn't a consideration.
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Yes, cause you're perfect. :bow: Well, I guess the difference is that I'm not. :boozing:
Look, it's a NEAT FEATURE. You don't want it fine.
But I'd sure like to have something like that if I hit the dunes on the way to the OBX house at 3:00 am with a truck full of sleeping toddlers. It sure would beat pulling them out into the cold sand and waiting for a tow truck SHOULD I GET STUCK.
Now I haven't gotten stuck yet, the Jeep has been fantastic. But this summer I saw more stuck 4x4's than ever before and I got close a couple of times (once trying to pull someone else out). Sure some might have been the drivers, but the sand was so dry and loose I bet some of them couldn't have been saved just by driver savvy.
In the end I didn't buy the Taco for other reasons, but I spent more on the Wrangler than I priced out the loaded Taco with crawl control so that wasn't a consideration.
I owned a house on the Outer Banks (Frisco) for over ten years not including the years that we rented. I also road on the beach's of Long Island, NY where the sand was even less forgiving than the OB. Never got stuck, but then I wasn't hot dogging it in the trucks like I was racing down Baja.
Some guys buy 4X4's and believe they are invincible in both sand and snow, then they end up sliding in the snow when they can't stop or burying the axles in the sand because they were too lazy or uninformed about removing some air from their tires.
This feature is a nice gimmick, good for Toyota.