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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tobit on November 15, 2015, 07:39:17 AM
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Mrs. Tobit's '95 Volvo 855T is due for replacement. 225,000 miles and it's just time to go. No need to go into all the maintenance I've done over the years, it's just tired.
Buying used so anything from say 2006 - 2010. I'd really like a Ford Flex but they're just out of reach with two kids in private school. I keep ending up looking at an Expedition or Suburban but there must be other options. So, I'm looking for input from owners of something that meets the following criteria.
Must comfortably seat family of four 6'1" bodies, plus 2 on occasion. (Mothers in law or friends)
Cargo space enough for travel with a large dog carrier, trips to Lowe's, etc.
Optional: Occasional towing of utility trailer under 3,000lbs.
Minimal superfluous electronic cellulite.
Must be comfortable for travel as we're on the high-school wrestling team circuit.
So? I still come back to Expedition. Plus, I already have an '07 F150 with the same drivetrain and am familiar with it.
Thanks,
Tobit
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We've had a Mazda CX-9 for about 5 years and 60,000 miles. It seats 7, has been reliable, and is fun to drive. However, I think we might be downsizing to a 5-seater Subaru for the AWD and due to the fact that two of our three girls now have their licenses.
If your a "Ford Man" then you probably already know that the Mazda is basically the same as the Ford Edge. The foldable third row of seats are good size, but probably not ideal for 6"+ wrestlers... so if the 7-seater need is truly occasional, one of these with tow-package would be worth a look.
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Just get another volvo, My 2002 v70D5 has done 250000 miles with just normal maintenance. With 2008 you get the last new model.
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Both good posts. I've given the Mazda a look, actually rented one or maybe it was a CX-7 (?). After three Volvos my only issue with DIY maintenance on anything more recent than our '95, is the level of electronics. Probably about time I at least bought a good scanner.
The 2001 V70 was an awful car and I won't have an XC anything after the issues the XC90 had with it's drivetrain eating itself.
But, being a regular on Brickboard.com I'll check into later V70s. Mrs. Tobit does like her Volvos.
Tobit
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If your the least bit serious about an Expedition or Suburban it might be worth a look into a Chrysler Aspen. They only made them 2007 thru2009 . Built on second Gen Durango platform they offer a couple different drivetrain options . We bought a 2007 with the Hemi and all wheel drive. It's Huge inside and my wifes Kayak fits with all the doors shut. After 90,000 miles I've had to replace an oil pressure sensor and the normal stuff, Tires,brake pads etc.
Mileage runs from 15-16 around town and 27-28 on Hiway. The Hemi has the Cylinder Reduction system that shuts off four cylinders at cruise. Happy Hunting :popcorn:
PaulB. :boozing:
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I am a Ford fan, but don't by an Explorer. They are all junk.
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Had a 2007 Edge for 7 years. best car I ever had. Flex, one of the best riders I've driven. Nice! A friend got a used one at a good price - look around before writing it off.
Taurus-X, good car but has the CVT - I'd be a wee bit reluctant to buy a used on unless very low miles.
Chryslers - stopped buying them, too many annoying electrical issues. Got better things to do than constantly sorting my car.
Explorer, you may find it impossible to rent a trailer from U-Haul - if that important to you.
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Mrs. Tobit's '95 Volvo 855T is due for replacement. 225,000 miles and it's just time to go. No need to go into all the maintenance I've done over the years, it's just tired.
Buying used so anything from say 2006 - 2010. I'd really like a Ford Flex but they're just out of reach with two kids in private school. I keep ending up looking at an Expedition or Suburban but there must be other options. So, I'm looking for input from owners of something that meets the following criteria.
Must comfortably seat family of four 6'1" bodies, plus 2 on occasion. (Mothers in law or friends)
Cargo space enough for travel with a large dog carrier, trips to Lowe's, etc.
Optional: Occasional towing of utility trailer under 3,000lbs.
Minimal superfluous electronic cellulite.
Must be comfortable for travel as we're on the high-school wrestling team circuit.
So? I still come back to Expedition. Plus, I already have an '07 F150 with the same drivetrain and am familiar with it.
Thanks,
Tobit
Look for a used Grand Caravan with the new 'Pentastar' engine.
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Chryslers - stopped buying them, too many annoying electrical issues. Got better things to do than constantly sorting my car.
Precisely my experience with two Caravans and an '07 Grand Cherokee bought new. Got a line on a Flex I might be able to check out next weekend. Explorers are out.
Check out this site.
carcomplaints.com
Tobit
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Ford Freestyle (has the CVT, some like it, some don't, some are scared of its high replacement cost)
Ford Taurus X 2008-9. Same car with a facelift and without the CVT.
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truedelta.com great for real world repair reports.
Taurus X lost the CVT? Cool!
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truedelta.com great for real world repair reports.
Taurus X lost the CVT? Cool!
Looking at a nice trex with 85k miles, at $9k I was hoping for one owner but it's two so might pass it up at that price. We've had great luck with both the Ford 500 and the Freestyle. I'm not eager to enter the world of MyFordTouch or other electronic nightmares so the Taurus X might be the most modern car without the electronic time bombs (as I see it).
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Mrs. Tobit's '95 Volvo 855T is due for replacement. 225,000 miles and it's just time to go. No need to go into all the maintenance I've done over the years, it's just tired.
Buying used so anything from say 2006 - 2010. I'd really like a Ford Flex but they're just out of reach with two kids in private school. I keep ending up looking at an Expedition or Suburban but there must be other options. So, I'm looking for input from owners of something that meets the following criteria.
Must comfortably seat family of four 6'1" bodies, plus 2 on occasion. (Mothers in law or friends)
Cargo space enough for travel with a large dog carrier, trips to Lowe's, etc.
Optional: Occasional towing of utility trailer under 3,000lbs.
Minimal superfluous electronic cellulite.
Must be comfortable for travel as we're on the high-school wrestling team circuit.
So? I still come back to Expedition. Plus, I already have an '07 F150 with the same drivetrain and am familiar with it.
Thanks,
Tobit
So you already have an F150? That will do everything you listed if it has a bench seat. If not you could trade it for a crew or mega cab with one. Get a cheap used sedan on the side.
Or this for around 6000
(http://images.autotrader.com/scaler/544/408/hn/fcadd1c5a0e540429573dd30cfa24509.jpg)
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I have a 2012 Toyo Rav 4 with a V6. Great vehicle. Extremely versatile, can tow, plenty of pick up- and of course reliable. There's a reason why they sell so many of them.
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So you already have an F150? That will do everything you listed if it has a bench seat. If not you could trade it for a crew or mega cab with one. Get a cheap used sedan on the side.
Or this for around 6000
(http://images.autotrader.com/scaler/544/408/hn/fcadd1c5a0e540429573dd30cfa24509.jpg)
More good suggestions. My F150 is a Super Cab with the bench and rear suicide doors. It's too cramped for four or five adults. Going to a Super Crew with four real doors and full-sized rear seat eats into the bed space, but could be an option. Bigger truck and newer sedan or sport wagon for the wife. My sister has a Rav 4 which the wife likes, forgot about that one.
First world problems.
Thanks for the replys,
Tobit
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Late model Lincoln Town car or Mercury Grand Marquis (yeah, I know they quit making them except for fleet orders.).
Good fuel economy, mid 20's on the road- very comfortable for 4 or even 5 and will seat 6.
And way more crash worthy than a Honda Fit. You are hauling precious cargo- can't beat a full frame vehicle.
Will also tow circles around a small SUV.
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Look for a used Grand Caravan with the new 'Pentastar' engine.
27/ 28 mpg
283 hp
6 speed auto
3,800 lb towing
5 year 100,000 power train warranty
Stow & Go seating
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Pontiac G8 :P
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Pontiac G8 :P
lol - thing is V6's are as quick nowadays. :boozing:
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This is all you need.....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Buick-Electra-SOUTHERN-SURVIVOR-A-C-41K-MILES-/361428923306?forcerrptr=true&hash=item5426d7b3aa:g:W8EAAOSw2XFUjF5e&item=361428923306 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Buick-Electra-SOUTHERN-SURVIVOR-A-C-41K-MILES-/361428923306?forcerrptr=true&hash=item5426d7b3aa:g:W8EAAOSw2XFUjF5e&item=361428923306)
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Late model Lincoln Town car or Mercury Grand Marquis (yeah, I know they quit making them except for fleet orders.).
Good fuel economy, mid 20's on the road- very comfortable for 4 or even 5 and will seat 6.
And way more crash worthy than a Honda Fit. You are hauling precious cargo- can't beat a full frame vehicle.
Will also tow circles around a small SUV.
I own a Grand Marquis. It is the last body on frame car built. A large body Mustang. The Caravan was worn out and was needing repairs every few months. My wife leaves these decisions to me and then she gives final approval. I looked at several cars and found them to be very expensive. I was not going to buy new. I have found that there are too many like new deal out there and worked that angle. After looking at several $30-$35,000 new used/demo's, I was driving by the local Ford dealer. There were several Grand Marquis on the lot. I waited until Sunday to check out the cars while the dealer was closed. Came home, did some home work and found the car to be a very good value. I sent the wife to look at the car and she said it was nice, but an old ladies car. Not backing down, I told her to go look in the mirror. After some discussion, she agreed to go look at the car. She called me and was very excited. She said it was a very nice car and liked it. I told her to go make a deal and call me back. A short time later, she called me back and said the dealer would take our Caravan and sell us the car for $7,500. I told her to write him a check and get out of there fast. 2011 model, 8,500 miles with a 60,000 mile warranty, 36,000 mile free oil changes.
The Caravan was 10 y.o. We traded a worn out Taurus for it. That dealer gave us $3,500 trade, sold it back to us for $.01, $6,000 buy down and then the Ford A plan. We had less than $8,500 in the Caravan and drove it for 8 years.
Finding a Crown Vic. or Marquis with low miles will be hard since they quit making them. It's a sleeper. Mustang in sheep's clothing.
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Whatever you buy Tobit , make sure the GPS actually works :evil:
Dusty
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I vote for Expedition or Suburban.
I drive a Suburban 1500 4x4. Great all-around use vehicle.
4 captains chairs and a 3rd row, so will haul up to seven people. Four big adults, plus two or three more when needed.
Even with the 3rd row in place, there is lots of luggage room behind the seat. I've hauled me and four friends to Chicago for a long weekend in it. Plenty of room for people and luggage. With fewer people, start folding seats and there is a shite-tonne of storage space. I even camp in mine with a full-size mattress.
More towing than you need, but hey, it's there.
Great in mud/snow/gravel.
Durable and reliable, with a dealer in every little town.
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Late model Lincoln Town car or Mercury Grand Marquis (yeah, I know they quit making them except for fleet orders.).
Good fuel economy, mid 20's on the road- very comfortable for 4 or even 5 and will seat 6.
And way more crash worthy than a Honda Fit. You are hauling precious cargo- can't beat a full frame vehicle.
Will also tow circles around a small SUV.
Last year model was 2011.
Fantastic durable/reliable cars, but probably not enough room for people, pet carriers and luggage he's talking about.
I'm kind of wanting to get a late 2009-2011 Lincoln Towncar for use as a roadtripper, but it would only haul me, Red and the dawg, so plenty of space for pet carrier and luggage.
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Finding a Crown Vic. or Marquis with low miles will be hard since they quit making them. It's a sleeper. Mustang in sheep's clothing.
Our work attorney (who drives Volvo's and Benzs') bought his 17 yo daughter a Crown Vic. I laughed at him, until he explained why. The thing is huge. Rides like a tank and she fit can all her friends and all their crap in it. (She's on the swim and volley ball teams). And would do a better job of protecting them in an accident than the usual choices of a small Toyota or such. And the engine and trans are bulletproof. Says she hated it until she drove it, now she's the envy of her friends. Except mom doesn't want it parked in front of the house. hahahahahaa
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Finding a Crown Vic. or Marquis with low miles will be hard since they quit making them. It's a sleeper. Mustang in sheep's clothing.
It's pretty easy, around here, to find one-owner Towncars as old as 2002/2003 with under 100,000 miles.
The demographic of the owners is probably the reason. Mostly owned by retirees who don't drive them a lot.
I see Towncars all the time with 40,000 to 60,000 miles on them. Model years 2006-up.
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My mother has an '07 Town Car. Actually, my wife is driving it this week while I do damage repair on the Volvo. Sunday morning she was on her way to run a half marathon, came over a rise and hit "something" hard. She called at 6:30am, "hon, I have a flat tire." The drivers side front tire has a huge bulge in the sidewall and the driver's side rear wheel is bent (OEM Volvo 15") and the tire sidewall ruptured. Found an identical wheel at U-pullit for $40, now need to get tires and alignment. With the hit the rear wheel took I'm surprised the front is still attached to the car.
Anyway, I think the Town Car is great. the 4.6L V8 runs very strong, it's big and comfy, but as mentioned above, not enough room for dog, family and stuff. And yes, the kids hate it and wife thinks it's an old lady's car. That said, we may inherit it should mom stop driving but at 82 years young, she's still hot rodding in her Lincoln. She drives with gloves on. Those old style with the ventilated knuckles.
Dusty, re GPS. LOL. :violent1:
Rough Edge, that Electra reminds me of my old Ford Elite. Wish I still had that car. Huge, 351 Windsor, I had about 12 people in it once. Arms and legs everywhere as we headed to the white water put in point.
Re Chrysler? No, not ever again in my life. I don't need an 8-speed transmission when the service department couldn't make my 4-speed electronically controlled unit shift correctly. After spending way too much time with Chrysler electrical system schematics for three vehicles, they're permanently off my list. I think they developed the GPS system for Harley. (Not Harley bashing, I LOVED the 2014 Street Glide I rented.)
Tobit
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Our work attorney (who drives Volvo's and Benzs') bought his 17 yo daughter a Crown Vic. I laughed at him, until he explained why. The thing is huge. Rides like a tank and she fit can all her friends and all their crap in it. (She's on the swim and volley ball teams). And would do a better job of protecting them in an accident than the usual choices of a small Toyota or such. And the engine and trans are bulletproof. Says she hated it until she drove it, now she's the envy of her friends. Except mom doesn't want it parked in front of the house. hahahahahaa
Kid number 1: 2000 Grand Marquis. Two wrecks, still running, 200k miles. Painted with Jurassic park theme on one side, Star Wars on the other, and a big red Rolling Stones tongue on the hood. She was an art major in school.
Kid number 2: 2003 Grand Marquis. One major wreck, had to replace radiator subframe and radiator, front end stuff. She walked away from it. Would have been a fatality in a smaller car. 110k miles and still trucking.
Kid number 3: 1999 Lincold Town Car. The only kid in high school with a real full size car. She's only 17, drove it to DC and back this weekend. All of her pals love the thing. White with white leather interior. I paid $4900 for it with 75k on the clock.
They are awesome cars, I hate they quit making them. Victim of marketing and perception.
America put so many of our police officers in them because they were very comfortable and safe.
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Crown Victoria? Those are the one that burst into flames when rear ended...Some cops refused to drive them after a series of gruesome accidents...Was it just the cop car version or all of them?
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I believe all of them. You had to be rear ended pretty darn good (the dental assistant at my dentists, her husband was a cop in Phoenix and got rear ended by a taxi going about 100. Probably should have killed him, very nasty burns). Rear suspension bits would zipper the gas tank as the gas tank was pushed forward.
Since they made them like that for years and only became a problem in the latter few I suspect it was not all that bad. Certainly did not rise to the same danger as the Pinto.
Dad rented one when he visited us in Tucson over twenty years ago. Did the Mount Lemon road (twisty bits, pot holes - many unavoidable due to said twisty bits), I was very impressed with the ride. Ford had that car dialed in.
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Good idea.
Big panthers are good durable cars. Not that comfortable seating 6 and the front middle only has a lap belt and the head will hit the dash in a collision. They are also less roomy in the back then you'd think. I've had one of each, Town Car, Marquis, and Crown Vic. They don't handle and at 190-225hp not the quickest.
They are ok at everything but excell at nothing. Except durability...
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Chevy Astro
- Seats 8
with seats removed, it carries 4x8 plywood sheets with doors closed
sleep in it
hauls cycles in it
tow with it
even add a lift kit on it (built on a truck chassis)
they are cheap to buy and run for ever
The 4.3 V6 is a Chevy 350 with two jugs cut off, tried and true.
Mine has 205k, owned it since new, 1998 (2005 was the last year I believe)
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Ok. I did a bit of re-thinking our needs so a large SUV was out. Wife does not need to drive an Expedition every day and we're done with mini-vans of any flavor. So, I jumped 23 years into the present from our old 225,000 mile 1995 Volvo 855T and have this parked in our driveway. It's my fourth Volvo wagon and rides like a Caddy. Incredible interior, nothing beats Volvo seats, and solid as a tank. 3.2l I-6, front wheel drive. Next purchase will be a scanner and software for maintaining the Space Shuttle level electronic systems.
This car is so good that it's going into the garage next to the LeMans IV. The first car ever to have that honor.
Web photos as it hasn't stopped raining here in days.
2008 V70.
(http://images.gtcarlot.com/pictures/15148751.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/2008VolvoV70Interior.jpg)
Tobit
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Hard to beat a wagon for family transport , weird how the car companies sort of gave up on them .
Nice car :thumb:
Dusty
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Sweet - enjoy!
Hard to beat a wagon for family transport , weird how the car companies sort of gave up on them .
Nice car :thumb:
Dusty
They didn't give up on them, demand was far outstripped by crossover SUVs which really just are family wagons with taller suspensions.
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Sweet - enjoy!
They didn't give up on them, demand was far outstripped by crossover SUVs which really just are family wagons with taller suspensions.
Uh , maybe , except wagons handle like a car , even those mini SUV's are unwieldy . I still believe the companies marketed these SUV's as something they aren't , neither "sport' nor "utility" .
Dusty
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Uh , maybe , except wagons handle like a car , even those mini SUV's are unwieldy . I still believe the companies marketed these SUV's as something they aren't , neither "sport' nor "utility" .
Dusty
How many have you driven?
You'd be surprised how well SOME of them handle.
Don't judge it all just from looks.
Hell, the first new "car" I ever bought was in 1999 when the handling (and AWD/4WD system) of the then brand new WJ Grand Cherokee blew me away. It wasn't half the whale the current WK2 is.... but anyway crossover SUVs come in all shapes and sizes, and some of them handle quite well (though I guess you could also make the argument that some of them have crossed-over into the hot hatch range more than wagon at that point).
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How many have you driven?
You'd be surprised how well SOME of them handle.
Don't judge it all just from looks.
Hell, the first new "car" I ever bought was in 1999 when the handling (and AWD/4WD system) of the then brand new WJ Grand Cherokee blew me away. It wasn't half the whale the current WK2 is.... but anyway crossover SUVs come in all shapes and sizes, and some of them handle quite well (though I guess you could also make the argument that some of them have crossed-over into the hot hatch range more than wagon at that point).
Dunno , maybe 6 , all handled like an old PU .
Dusty
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looks like new. ave fun with it. These big engines are hardly sold here, to expensive in tax, we get them with 2.0, or even 1.6.
Here we get the mini suv a lot, compared to a wagon the weigh the same, but are higher and shorther. And I love loading longer things in the back like two bicycles for a weekend away, or diy stuff.
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Nice looking Volvo....interior looks like the day it was built.
Mini vans forever for me. My Odyssey has more room then a Suburban, holds a 4x8 sheet of plywood. I can pack everything needed for a rally of 100 people including the keg holder and still get 26 MPG! In a few weeks it will haul a motorcycle, two bicycles and two months of "stuff" to AZ to get out of the snow.
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Very Nice Tobit! I love that interior. A parking space next to the LeMans IV is quite the honor!!
Rick.
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I had a V70 2.5T for a while, great car, sport-wagon really. Should have held onto it longer to pass it down to one of my kids. V70s look cool as cop cars too.
https://www.google.com/search?q=swedish+volvo+police&espv=2&biw=1397&bih=865&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj38JL33rrJAhWG7SYKHc-9CsIQsAQIGw
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Dunno , maybe 6 , all handled like an old PU .
Dusty
You gotta get out more...
...even a lot of new pickups today don't handle like an old PU.
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Car manufacturers haven't given up on station wagons. They have given up on the U.S. market to buy the product which would actually serve their needs best. Outside 'murica they sell as always. Unfortunately, most buyers here are very emotional and more often than not it is the inner pig-dog that wins. That's not to say that some people have genuine use for an SUV but most don't. These things have come a long way since the Defenders, Wagoneers and Scouts. They still don't handle like a car all things being equal save for maybe a Cayenne with active suspension. It's simple physics. A wagon is a much more intelligent choice. Most people would be served better with a Turbodiesel station wagon. 40 mpg and passive safety is much more useful than 12 inches of ground clearance combined with rwd. Tits on a bull...
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I used to be a Volvo man-`59 PV544, `80 P-1800, `71 142S......'till the new 142 needed a cam @ 22k mi., and rings @ 55K miles. Switched to a new `75 Toyota Corona wagon and have been with that brand since. Currently we have a `01 Rav 4 and I can't imagine any other car meeting our needs now. It has 140K mi. on the odo. and every thing works. It pulls 1,500#(2 bikes) and get's 25-26 mpg w/it's 3 valve 2L I4 motor, 4 spd. auto. I liked our 2.2L Corona wagon but it lacked some leg room and the roof wasn't high enough some times. None of that is an issue now. We only use it for 2 of us so we took out the 2 back seats and use the back for all kinds of stuff. Never a lack of room. Even sleep in it some times. It's short wheelbase is a Godsend when parking. Cornering, not so great, but I have MCs for that. :azn: Ride is firm but OK for long drives and just the way I like it.
But I have to admit your `08 Volvo looks like new and is sharp looking! Hopefully it fits your needs and that's what counts.
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Shooting Brakes rule!
So now that this aging Luddite, yours truly, has entered the realm of Vida Dice OBD2 scanners and a laptop in the tool chest, can a fuel injected bike be in my future? I'm glad it isn't optioned completely. Didn't get forced air ventilated seats, the parking assist, the radar adaptive cruise control and braking system or lutefisk warming oven. Not even the Swedish meatball seat warmers. Does have brake rotor temp sensors and other nonsense just waiting to rear their little electronic heads and direct me to a dealership via the dash display. Sorry, never been to one and not going now. My first non-Turbo Volvo. Wonder if there's a Screamin' Herring Stage I kit for this thing? Oh well, it's the wife's car after all.
Tjobit, ja.
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Car manufacturers haven't given up on station wagons. They have given up on the U.S. market to buy the product which would actually serve their needs best. Outside 'murica they sell as always. Unfortunately, most buyers here are very emotional and more often than not it is the inner pig-dog that wins. That's not to say that some people have genuine use for an SUV but most don't. These things have come a long way since the Defenders, Wagoneers and Scouts. They still don't handle like a car all things being equal save for maybe a Cayenne with active suspension. It's simple physics. A wagon is a much more intelligent choice. Most people would be served better with a Turbodiesel station wagon. 40 mpg and passive safety is much more useful than 12 inches of ground clearance combined with rwd. Tits on a bull...
That post is a bunch of righteous indignation wrapped in your preferences sold as fact.
1. America is not like much of say Europe geographically. What serves them best doesn't necessarily serve us best.
2. If you're going argue NEEDS then perhaps you might recognize there are probably other ways than individually owned internal combustion engines to serve needs and once you admit that YOUR choices become as absurd and everyone else's.
3. Handling like a car? Is that damning with faint praise? Again, poor generalization. On AVERAGE that might be true, but most wagons weren't exactly the benchmark of handling and there are certainly plenty of SUVs (largely crossovers) that handle as well or better. More importantly, define what you NEED in handling? I mean, if we're talking about carving twisties then short of an STI or Focus RS wagon, maybe you're making the wrong choice with a wagon too. Fact is most cars (even SUVs) can "handle" better than most drivers (like the same is true for most bikes).
4. Why did you assume most SUVs are RWD? I would say most are either FWD or AWD these days and the distance between them and a "car" is often quite blurry (and small).
Edit-of course I just (as in last night) bought a new traditional RWD, 4x4, body on frame, live axle SUV not because of NEEDS, but because of WANTS. I wanted a fun, top off, all weather/all terrain option for groceries, picking up the/carting around the kids, plus some beach and trail driving.
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That post is a bunch of righteous indignation wrapped in your preferences sold as fact.
1. America is not like much of say Europe geographically. What serves them best doesn't necessarily serve us best.
2. If you're going argue NEEDS then perhaps you might recognize there are probably other ways than individually owned internal combustion engines to serve needs and once you admit that YOUR choices become as absurd and everyone else's.
3. Handling like a car? Is that damning with faint praise? Again, poor generalization. On AVERAGE that might be true, but most wagons weren't exactly the benchmark of handling and there are certainly plenty of SUVs (largely crossovers) that handle as well or better. More importantly, define what you NEED in handling? I mean, if we're talking about carving twisties then short of an STI or Focus RS wagon, maybe you're making the wrong choice with a wagon too. Fact is most cars (even SUVs) can "handle" better than most drivers (like the same is true for most bikes).
4. Why did you assume most SUVs are RWD? I would say most are either FWD or AWD these days and the distance between them and a "car" is often quite blurry (and small).
Edit-of course I just (as in last night) bought a new traditional RWD, 4x4, body on frame, live axle SUV not because of NEEDS, but because of WANTS. I wanted a fun, top off, all weather/all terrain option for groceries, picking up the/carting around the kids, plus some beach and trail driving.
1: The vast majority of Americas infrastructure is built with standard cars in mind just like in Europe. We have the Rockies they have the Alps but all in all very similar.
2: So you would posit that (for my family of 4) my 5 seat 30mpg 4 cylinder family car is just as absurd as a 11mpg Excursion for the same duty?
3 You claim that SUV's handle better than most drivers can handle? That is undiluted, emotional, none sense. In an emergency maneuver an "average driver" benefits much more from the added stability of a standard vehicle than an experienced one. Handling in this context is not about apex hunting. It's about preventing a spooked soccer mom from losing it on a dead straight highway and the like.
4 Don't remember where I read that. The sad thing is that it really doesn't matter. Most people won't utilize it anyway.
Buy what you want. It's a free country. My point is this: the intelligent consumer will recognize his/her needs and not be bullied by silly social stigma.
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You see, more bullshit, "the intelligent consumer" only agrees with you. :rolleyes:
1. Population density, availability of public transport, overall size and type of topography differ greatly from Europe.
2. If you live in population dense areas with access to public transport and your primary concern is impact to the environment yes. That said if your personal priorities, wealth, and needs or desires are different then it's no more absurd than owing a boat or say multiple motorcycles. Hell two of our 50 mpg bikes become the equivalent of 25 mpg when we ride them together. Do you ever ride with a friend on a separate bike? How about annual mileage, what's your annual total miles on that wagon, are you sure it's not double of triple the guy with that Expedition? Are you sure the difference in annual fuel costs means jack to his budget? There are a lot of factors you're assuming apply all based on your limited perspective.
3. Horseshit. If you think the average soccer mom has less of a chance of getting into an accident because of the handling systems in say an Outback vs. an Expedition you're nuts. If anything I bet her chances for survival go up in the latter based on sheer tonnage.
4. Well it would take data that I'm not sure exists market wise to be sure, but my impression is that MOST SUVs are either AQD/full-time 4wd or are crossovers based on a FWD platform. Even when a model is based on a RWD platform the majority of sales are usually the former.
The funny thing about this argument is that I'm a long time fan of Subaru having owned three and would happily own one again so it's got nothing to do with intelligence or social stigma why we now own two RWD based AWD and 4wd SUV's.
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The funny thing about this argument is that I'm a long time fan of Subaru having owned three and would happily own one again so it's for nothing to go with intelligence or social stigma why we now own two RWD based AWD and 4wd SUV's.
The funny thing is I had a Subaru Forester and it broke down constantly....But that's not every Subaru...That's why it's difficult to recommend a vehicle.
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The funny thing is I had a Subaru Forester and it broke down constantly....But that's not every Subaru...That's why it's difficult to recommend a vehicle.
Man our Subarus were all rock solid. Our Forester was a 259k mile machines still running when it was sold that had very few repairs.
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I just bought a Subaru Outback 3.6R and really like it so far. The four cylinder with that rubber band transmission was a bit weird so I went with the six.
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I just bought a Subaru Outback 3.6R and really like it so far. The four cylinder with that rubber band transmission was a bit weird so I went with the six.
When we picked up the Grand Cherokee in 2012 we seriously considered that Outback.
In the end the decision for the Jeep was for a little more luxury, a little higher ride height (Jenn likes seeing over the traffic now, a big change from her Impreza wagon, Mini Cooper, and Turbo Beetle before the Jeep), and most of all a bit more luxury and capability.
For pretty darn similar money the Jeep has:
* An AWD but with a traditional low-range transfer case and multiple terrain drive system (useful for getting the family to and from the OBX house)/
* A higher tow capacity (5000# vs I think 3500# if I remember correctly) and self-leveling rear suspension that adjusts for tongue weight.
* Key fob actuated memory seats (helpful so that I don't bang my knees on the steering column/dash when I drive it), but also fob actuated mirror and radio settings.
* REAR heated seats
* And I think a better Sat NAV/Audio system (Garmin/U-connect), though that's highly subjective.
I think the Outback has a clear advantage in handling over this particular beast, though I wouldn't have said that about the earlier generation Jeep WJ Grand Cherokee.
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You see, more bullshit, "the intelligent consumer" only agrees with you. :rolleyes:
1. Population density, availability of public transport, overall size and type of topography differ greatly from Europe.
2. If you live in population dense areas with access to public transport and your primary concern is impact to the environment yes. That said if your personal priorities, wealth, and needs or desires are different then it's no more absurd than owing a boat or say multiple motorcycles. Hell two of our 50 mpg bikes become the equivalent of 25 mpg when we ride them together. Do you ever ride with a friend on a separate bike? How about annual mileage, what's your annual total miles on that wagon, are you sure it's not double of triple the guy with that Expedition? Are you sure the difference in annual fuel costs means jack to his budget? There are a lot of factors you're assuming apply all based on your limited perspective.
3. Horseshit. If you think the average soccer mom has less of a chance of getting into an accident because of the handling systems in say an Outback vs. an Expedition you're nuts. If anything I bet her chances for survival go up in the latter based on sheer tonnage.
4. Well it would take data that I'm not sure exists market wise to be sure, but my impression is that MOST SUVs are either AQD/full-time 4wd or are crossovers based on a FWD platform. Even when a model is based on a RWD platform the majority of sales are usually the former.
The funny thing about this argument is that I'm a long time fan of Subaru having owned three and would happily own one again so it's got nothing to do with intelligence or social stigma why we now own two RWD based AWD and 4wd SUV's.
Uh Kev , actually you are wrong , a vehicle's ability to avoid accidents plays a large role in safety . Large vehicles really don't fare all that well in overall safety , sorry dude .
Dusty
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I see so many SUV type all wheel drive vehicles in areas of the country where it rarely snows and they are not driven off road. I suppose all wheel drive has become the new standard.... But I take pride in driving used junk with a mechanical lever to engage the front axle so what do I know... :grin:
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When we picked up the Grand Cherokee in 2012 we seriously considered that Outback.
In the end the decision for the Jeep was for a little more luxury, a little higher ride height (Jenn likes seeing over the traffic now, a big change from her Impreza wagon, Mini Cooper, and Turbo Beetle before the Jeep), and most of all a bit more luxury and capability.
For pretty darn similar money the Jeep has:
* An AWD but with a traditional low-range transfer case and multiple terrain drive system (useful for getting the family to and from the OBX house)/
* A higher tow capacity (5000# vs I think 3500# if I remember correctly) and self-leveling rear suspension that adjusts for tongue weight.
* Key fob actuated memory seats (helpful so that I don't bang my knees on the steering column/dash when I drive it), but also fob actuated mirror and radio settings.
* REAR heated seats
* And I think a better Sat NAV/Audio system (Garmin/U-connect), though that's highly subjective.
I think the Outback has a clear advantage in handling over this particular beast, though I wouldn't have said that about the earlier generation Jeep WJ Grand Cherokee.
Jeeps seem to be way better than the last time I rode one back in the 1980's, but I never considered it because I really didn't want too big of a vehicle. Just the two of us so the heated front seats were OK, the Nav is a joke but it works, though the salesman said he uses his google maps instead of the built in system. And I bought a used 13 with 20,000 miles and it was certified bumper to bumper for 100K with the extended warranty. I never buy those extended deals but saving the $10,000 difference between this and a new one, it seemed to be a reasonable cost.
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You see, more bullshit, "the intelligent consumer" only agrees with you. :rolleyes:
1. Population density, availability of public transport, overall size and type of topography differ greatly from Europe.
2. If you live in population dense areas with access to public transport and your primary concern is impact to the environment yes. That said if your personal priorities, wealth, and needs or desires are different then it's no more absurd than owing a boat or say multiple motorcycles. Hell two of our 50 mpg bikes become the equivalent of 25 mpg when we ride them together. Do you ever ride with a friend on a separate bike? How about annual mileage, what's your annual total miles on that wagon, are you sure it's not double of triple the guy with that Expedition? Are you sure the difference in annual fuel costs means jack to his budget? There are a lot of factors you're assuming apply all based on your limited perspective.
3. Horseshit. If you think the average soccer mom has less of a chance of getting into an accident because of the handling systems in say an Outback vs. an Expedition you're nuts. If anything I bet her chances for survival go up in the latter based on sheer tonnage.
4. Well it would take data that I'm not sure exists market wise to be sure, but my impression is that MOST SUVs are either AQD/full-time 4wd or are crossovers based on a FWD platform. Even when a model is based on a RWD platform the majority of sales are usually the former.
The funny thing about this argument is that I'm a long time fan of Subaru having owned three and would happily own one again so it's got nothing to do with intelligence or social stigma why we now own two RWD based AWD and 4wd SUV's.
1: Speeds are similar, the roads are similar. The distances may be greater but that doesn't mean a Yukon is the right tool. You talk about population density. I need to travel 100 miles. What is the best tool? A quality sedan that turns 2500rpm at 90mph while returning 30mpg? Or would it be a body on frame commercial vehicle with a trunk and leather seats with terrible mileage and dubious handling at speed?
2: We're talking family cars, not toys.
3: Rollover safety? Braking distance? Early upset in slalom maneuvers? Never heard of these issues? The only benefit to an SUV is mass. Of course this becomes an egotistical race of size as people try to get an edge on the next person and we end up with the Excursion. Again, the typical modern American approach to innovation is to use a bigger effing hammer. The more intelligent approach would be to prevent crashes in the first place and to rely on technology rather than differential mass to save the lives of ne plus ultra.
There are so many choices abroad that are not being offered to us due to inane social stigma surrounding station wagons in the USA. This is a shame because in reality they suit the need of the average family better.
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I didn't intend for this to become a pissing contest. Let it go guys. Not one size fits all and there is no perfect vehicle, despite what Melissa says.
:Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu
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There are so many choices abroad that are not being offered to us due to inane social stigma surrounding station wagons in the USA. This is a shame because in reality they suit the need of the average family better.
I was waiting for the VW Alltrack but I'm not thinking that is going to happen too soon.
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I didn't intend for this to become a pissing contest. Let it go guys. Not one size fits all and there is no perfect vehicle, despite what Melissa says.
:Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu
Are ya new here ? :grin: Yeah , maybe toning it down a bit is in order .
Dusty
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I was waiting for the VW Alltrack but I'm not thinking that is going to happen too soon.
That's a nice one. These diesel wagons would make sense too and are already being sold as gasoline sedans here.
(http://a38898d4011a160a051fb191.gearheads.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Ford-Mondeo.jpg?9939c0)
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Y6yVkdA-2nU/maxresdefault.jpg)
(http://beforeitsnews.com/mediadrop/uploads/2013/38/213972f2589298b1c8aebceec2ca4455709bc1dc.jpg)
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Uh Kev , actually you are wrong , a vehicle's ability to avoid accidents plays a large role in safety . Large vehicles really don't fare all that well in overall safety , sorry dude .
Dusty
Define avoid and show me some meaningful stats.
In my experience the AVERAGE driver is no more Ken Block than the average rider is Ricky Carmichael. When something unexpected happens that jam on the brakes and grab the steering wheel with a death grip and hope they stop in time. OR if they swerve they probably swerve into something else. What's the old advice about NOT swerving to avoid an animal (other than a Moose), don't swerve cause you're more likely to hit something more dangerous (another car, truck, tree, etc.).
1: Speeds are similar, the roads are similar. The distances may be greater but that doesn't mean a Yukon is the right tool. You talk about population density. I need to travel 100 miles. What is the best tool? A quality sedan that turns 2500rpm at 90mph while returning 30mpg? Or would it be a body on frame commercial vehicle with a trunk and leather seats with terrible mileage and dubious handling at speed?
2: We're talking family cars, not toys.
3: Rollover safety? Braking distance? Early upset in slalom maneuvers? Never heard of these issues? The only benefit to an SUV is mass. Of course this becomes an egotistical race of size as people try to get an edge on the next person and we end up with the Excursion. Again, the typical modern American approach to innovation is to use a bigger effing hammer. The more intelligent approach would be to prevent crashes in the first place and to rely on technology rather than differential mass to save the lives of ne plus ultra.
There are so many choices abroad that are not being offered to us due to inane social stigma surrounding station wagons in the USA. This is a shame because in reality they suit the need of the average family better.
1. Speeds aren't necessarily similar, roads definitely aren't similar whether we're talking the autobahn or more importantly small crowded cities whose maze of tiny streets were laid out in medieval times. There's a reason different cars are more popular in the EU than the US. To some extent the same is even true for motorcycles.
You keep using this "best" term, but without defining what qualities are necessary for BEST it's just nonsense. To many BEST might mean:
* Most quiet
* Most comfortable
* Best view
* Nicest interior features
This may include the ability to see over coupes and sedans in traffic.
What is more safe, the ability to steer more quickly around an unexpected obstacle, or to get a better view of the big picture and see said obstacle sooner.
My greatest objection to your position (other than the insulting statements that it is the only intelligent one) is that it ASSumes (drink :boozing:) too many generalizations.
2. Why do we need to limit the conversation to family cars and "not toys". Why is it somehow dumb or irresponsible to burn extra fuel in a family car when toys get a pass?
3. "Never heard of these issues?" <--- see continuing with the insults. My question to you is if you can quantify the statistical benefits from these things? I like a vehicle that handles probably better than most. But don't discount the advantages mass has in a caged vehicle.
You like a wagon, great - buy one - you can get a Volvo, A Subaru (both top names in the "safety" business so that should please you). I'm not up on BMW and Mercedes and VW's latest offerings, but when last I checked they all still had some wagons, though largely they were being replaced by SUVs dues to sale popularity.
The Mazda C-series SUVs are excellent handlers and very much still wagons more than anything else.
The Juke I just sold is more a hot-hatch in many ways, and handles as such.
I'm sorry they aren't selling whatever YOU want because you're in the minority, I can relate. I might have considered a TRUE compact truck if they sold here what they do in the EU and much of the rest of the world. But that's not what the market wants. That doesn't make the market wrong, just different from my desires.
Tobit - sorry about the hijack. Brio just rubbed me the wrong way. I didn't intend this to be pissing contest so much as to show him that his thinking isn't universally true and though he's entitled to his preferences he shouldn't think that makes him "right" or "better", the later being the crux of the discussion.
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just found a 2005 Expedition on the DC CL for $5900 with only 65000 miles. Sounds like a good deal...
http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/mld/cto/5341503290.html
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Kev your last paragraph is funny because your posts are full of little jabs (ASS-ume for instance). Also, I recall several posts in which members complained of your pansophic dogmatisms. Maybe the problem is that you've found and equally opinionated a-hole in me and that sets you off :wink:
We will just have to agree to disagree. I'm done :boozing:
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Kev your last paragraph is funny because your posts are full of little jabs (ASS-ume for instance). Also, I recall several posts in which members complained of your pansophic dogmatisms. Maybe the problem is that you've found and equally opinionated a-hole in me and that sets you off :wink:
We will just have to agree to disagree...
Well, then let me clarify, if you notice the ASSume comment was followed by (drink :boozing:) which is an inside joke that I should let you in on. It's sorta like playing Drink-Grinch, drink everytime someone uses the term assume. I'm not calling you an ass so much as referring to that, and to the OLD SNL skit that "ASS out of U and ME".
So no, it wasn't meant as a barb.
As for pansophic dogmatisms, I'm sure someone has complained about something I've posted as I don't generally take a lot of time to gently dance around something if I don't agree or don't like it. And if you'd posted as much as I have on this forum in the decade I've been here, you'd be sure to have pissed off someone too by now.
That said, sure, we can disagree, no big deal.
Though I do hope I at least made the point that "best" or "better" really has to do with your particular point of view and it is usually folly to try and tell someone else what is "best" for them because they may not share your values. And THAT was my main point.
Me, I'm going to go shower, and jump in my impractical but fun family SUV (new Wrangler).
You have a great day!
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Check out this site.
carcomplaints.com
That data on site appears to be virtually worthless in that it rates cars as "worst" based on the number of reported issues without regard to how many of the cars are out there. There would be at least 3 significant problems with their data:
-It doesn't appear to be related to the number of cars made. Therefore, the most popular cars will likely be among the "worst" and the site erroneously reports them as such. This is just wrong.
-Sample size is way too small
-All issues are given equal weight. A bad radio tuning knob is just as bad as a blown transmission.
You might try www.truedelta.com for somewhat more accurate and useful information.
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Honda Element or 4 door Porsche. I'd go with the Element.
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Honda Element or 4 door Porsche. I'd go with the Element.
There have been times I might have chosen either, but right now, neither.
The sun came out today for the first time since Monday. Even though it was only about 45°F out I rolled down the windows (but turned on the heat and heated seat) and got some break in miles in the forest!
(http://www.gigabikes.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10081/IMG_20151203_122655038A.jpg)