Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: novaboy on November 16, 2015, 12:35:01 PM
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Hey folks,
I have a new 2014 V7 Stone. Everything was running perfect on the bike, no issues what so ever. I had the first service done at the dealer about a week and half ago. I rode the bike once since then. A short 20km ride. I noticed a slight whine that was never there before. Today after being away at work for week, I started up the bike, and when I let the clutch out in neutral there was a loud squeal. Pull the clutch in and it goes away. I also noticed with the clutch out, besides the noise the bike seemed to want to creep forward.
I haven't noticed any oil leaks.
The dealer is over an hour away, so I can't get the bike back til next week, due to work, and having to borrow a trailer. Of course the dealer said it wasn't their fault.
Any ideas of what could be the cause or what it could be?
Thanks
Terry
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This sounds like another case of a tech not understanding the terminology used by Guzzi and waaaay under filling the transmission . The problem comes from the final drive being called the transmission . Do NOT ride the bike , others will be along shortly . Damn , what is wrong with these techs ?
Dusty
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Dusty,
If that's the case then, I blame myself for trusting the tech's and not checking myself. F@#k.
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Dusty,
If that's the case then, I blame myself for trusting the tech's and not checking myself. F@#k.
No , we should be able to trust that a trained tech knows what he is doing . Maybe Guzzi should publish an addendum to address the confusion . We have at least two threads re this on WG .
Oh , the creeping issue sounds like a poorly adjusted clutch cable .
Dusty
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No , we should be able to trust that a trained tech knows what he is doing . Maybe Guzzi should publish an addendum to address the confusion . We have at least two threads re this on WG .
Oh , the creeping issue sounds like a poorly adjusted clutch cable .
Dusty6
(No , we should be able to trust that a trained tech knows what he is doing )
I have shake my head every time I see or hear someone say or post something about a TRAINED Guzzi tech or hear the term "factory trained Guzzi mechanic" There is no such thing working in any Guzzi Dealership now or ever in the past.
The closest possible individual would be a shop mechanic that has attended a Guzzi two or three day seminar. That does not even come close to the term "trained tech" or "factory trained mechanic" Through all 7 USA importers and distributors Moto Guzzi has never had any service training other than short seminars on new models. Definitely not any factory sponsored schooling.
Any good Moto Guzzi mechanic has learned his trade and earned his wings all by experience and taking the time to work through the learning process job by job, which actually never ends.
Just because the guy works at a dealership that took on Guzzi does not make him a "Trained Guzzi Tech."
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This could also possibly be another "clutch adjustment" issue. If the adjustment in the clutch cable is not correct, this can cause the problem that you're having. It needs to be looked at by someone who is competent.......... and quickly.
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Sorry Mike , how is the general buying public supposed to know that ? If I contract to paint a house the customer has a reasonable expectation that the job will be performed properly .
Dusty
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Well my local Guzzi dealer is fairly new, they have had Guzzi's for a couple of years and I don't think they have sold or serviced too many. However I thought a simple service wouldn't be out of realm of skill for a tech. I pondered doing the service myself and figured I'd let the dealer do the first one in case of issues.
I hope this doesn't end up being a fight with the dealer for an expensive repair.
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Instead of wondering, get wrenches out and check the oil levels for Pete"s sake and not the Roper, Pete.
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Sorry Mike , how is the general buying public supposed to know that ? If I contract to paint a house the customer has a reasonable expectation that the job will be performed properly .
Dusty
There is really no way to know what the shops mechanics are capable of. The tech may be great or he could have just been promoted up from cleanup boy. Who can tell ?
If the shop or the tech is going to BS a customer about them being a "Factory trained mechanic" then I would be backing away .
You just have to go with who you trust.
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There is really no way to know what the shops mechanics are capable of. The tech may be great or he could have just been promoted up from cleanup boy. Who can tell ?
If the shop or the tech is going to BS a customer about them being a "Factory trained mechanic" then I would be backing away .
You just have to go with who you trust.
Well , and that is a good point .
Dusty
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Before I head out to the cold garage, if the fluid level was low, would the issue not be there right from the beginning, and not slowly rear it's head as I rode? When I finished the ride there was no loud squeal at all, just a whine when riding. After the bike sitting for over a week, the noise was there right away, as soon as the clutch was let out.
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Probably . Where are you Pete ?
Dusty
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Take out the gearbox drain plug and measure how much oil comes out. It should be a ful litre.
What I can't understand is how anybody can drain a gearbox and then think it is right to put in only a 1/4 or 1/3 as much oil as came out? It's cretinous.
The reason it wasn't immediately apparent is because it takes time for bearings to shit themselves to the point they howl.
Pete
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You really need to document this , get a witness , video the findings , call in the FBI , whatever it takes . If the problem is what I think it is , you need to have indisputable evidence , not just your word . Really hoping I am wrong ...
Dusty
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I won't be draining the gearbox oil. The dealer is going to do that, in front of me.
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Don't ride it there. If it spits off a tooth or a bearing collapses it could lock up the box. Since the box is downstream of the clutch pulling the clutch in won't help and you get into 'Earth/Sky-Earth/Sky-Earth-Ambulance territory.
Pete
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Keep us posted. I'm interested.
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Don't ride it there. If it spits off a tooth or a bearing collapses it could lock up the box. Since the box is downstream of the clutch pulling the clutch in won't help and you get into 'Earth/Sky-Earth/Sky-Earth-Ambulance territory.
Pete
Nova , listen to this advice .
Dusty
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no worries, I do not plan on riding it. The next ride for the Guzzi is in a trailer to the dealer.
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Sorry Mike , how is the general buying public supposed to know that ? If I contract to paint a house the customer has a reasonable expectation that the job will be performed properly .
Dusty
Well, I guess you could ask a old dude with 30-40 years of Guzzi 'sperience right Mike?
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Now why didn't I think of that :violent1:
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no worries, I do not plan on riding it. The next ride for the Guzzi is in a trailer to the dealer.
Did the dealer mark the fill plug after tightening it (with a paint stripe or dot)? If not, I'd unscrew the fill plug (not the drain plug) and see if the oil level is visible within a short distance of the bottom of the fill hole. (Might use a toothpick as dip stick.)
It would a shame to trailer your bike all the way to the dealer just to find out the transmission is in fact topped up (and your problem is something else).
If you'd be breaking a paint mark, it might be better to leave things alone and hit the road with your trailer.
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Well, I guess you could ask a old dude with 30-40 years of Guzzi 'sperience right Mike?
That works , unless you are new to the marque and don't know who the old heads are . If every time a new guy needs service he has to call Mike to vet a dealer , Mike is gonna get tired of answering the phone ...
Dusty
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If it is a new bike and you just purchased it from him and no one else has touched it and his mechanic changed the fluids then I can't see how there would be any question who's fault it is.
If the dealer is forth right he should not be telling you anything he should be coming to get the bike and doing his own investigating with his mechanic. If it is low on oil then the ball is in his court.
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That works , unless you are new to the marque and don't know who the old heads are . If every time a new guy needs service he has to call Mike to vet a dealer , Mike is gonna get tired of answering the phone ...
Dusty
I don't want to get into Vetting other dealers. Guzzi needs all the dealers they can get and should not have a somebody second guessing them.
Having said that, Honesty, Integrity and hard work will keep you going in the Guzzi business. At least for 45 yrs any way
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I don't want to get into Vetting other dealers. Guzzi needs all the dealers they can get and should not have a somebody second guessing them.
Having said that, Honesty, Integrity and hard work will keep yougoing in the Guzzi business. At least for 45 yrs any way
I care about the marque and the folks who buy them . Wasn't second guessing anyone . The OP had the bike serviced , a well known problem arose , we tried to help the person with the problem . The dealer already stated it wasn't their fault W/O doing any investigation , at this point my loyalties lie with the customer . And yes , 35 years of dealing with the public has taught me one thing , W/O people purchasing a product , more dealers don't make any difference .
Dusty
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I love the Guzzi brand and this won't sway me from buying another one. But from now on I'll be doing my own routine maintenance. If the transmission oil is under serviced it's their fault, and they can't even turn it on me for not checking the level since the owners manual clearly states that is a dealer function only.
Due to my work schedule I won't even be able to get it up there until next week. I will keep you posted.
The bummer part is.......there are only days left in the riding season and I'm without a bike.
Thanks for all the input folks, I'll let you know how this all unfolds.
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Just a minute. The OP said
I noticed a slight whine that was never there before. Today after being away at work for week, I started up the bike, and when I let the clutch out in neutral there was a loud squeal. Pull the clutch in and it goes away. I also noticed with the clutch out, besides the noise the bike seemed to want to creep forward.
I'm having a problem understanding why an underfilled transmission would cause this. Might this be a mis adjusted clutch? I know it's tough describing sounds..
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Just a minute. The OP said
I'm having a problem understanding why an underfilled transmission would cause this. Might this be a mis adjusted clutch? I know it's tough describing sounds..
Dry bearing .
Dusty
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The Guzzi dealer in Indiana, who was also a shoe salesman Hired a Harley trained mechanic who did my first servicing on my second Stone. By the time I ha made the 200 miles home, my trany was whining. I checked and the oil was low.
I topped it up but the thing still whined but not as loud. I had to add nearly 200cc of oil to get it right.
I went back to the dealer and was lucky enough to watch as the IDIOT did the same to another bike.
After draining the oil from a warm engine. He measured out the correct amount ito a glass measuring decanter.
He put a funnel int the trany and poured the oil into it. He then sat the measuring decanter down and pulled the funnel
and close the tranny. With the funnel in the measuring decanter I watched as 200cc of oil ran off the funnel and down the sides of the decanter and pooled in the bottom. He never checked to see if the level was correct in the bike.
The dealer would not do anything when I showed it to him. He just said, The transmission still works so there is no warranty problem. It's just one of the reasons I have not bought a guzzi since.
Oh, BTW, when I bought the bike I asked about doing my own servicing and he told me that it would void the warranty.
That's why I took it to him for service.
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If the gearbox is grossly under filled the needle rollers under the pinions will shriek in pretty short order. Pulling in the clutch will stop the input shaft rotating so it'll go quiet, the only thing spinnin' will be the pushrod and thrust bearing.
When moving the gears destroying themselves will whine.
Pete
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Yes, I noticed that.
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When filling the transmission and diff we use a pump hooked to a clear thin hose. Fill them up until they are about to run over. Someone once came back and accused us of overfilling the transmission and they were told that was impossible to do if the bike is level and upright.
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If the gearbox is grossly under filled the needle rollers under the pinions will shriek in pretty short order. Pulling in the clutch will stop the input shaft rotating so it'll go quiet, the only thing spinnin' will be the pushrod and thrust bearing.
When moving the gears destroying themselves will whine.
Pete
Thanks for that, Pete..
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I wrote a guide on doing the transmission oil change on a pre-2013 V7.
I'm all about self-service. It's better to do it wrong on your own, than paying someone to do it wrong.
Double click on each photo for the text.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/sign216/albums/72157626993357143 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sign216/albums/72157626993357143)
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Well folks,
I dropped the bike off at the dealer last week, they said it would be a couple of days before they could look at it. They called back a couple of days ago and said the clutch was out of adjustment, and it was all fixed and ready to go. Could it have been that easy? I'm going back on Wednesday to pick it up. Bike will basically be going in storage for the winter now.
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No it couldn't.
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Any chance you might be able to get a ride in before storage? Would hate to have to wait till spring to see if it was the clutch adj. or if it is in the tranny itself.
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They put the fluid in that they forgot.
It isn't making much noise now.
They hope it holds together long enough for it to be forgotten.
Had you checked the fluid level before returning it?
Sounds fishy.
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This weekend looks like it might be good enough for a ride so I'll give it a good run then and see what happens. I never checked the oil, because the manual says to leave to a Guzzi Tech. I do know the clutch did need adjustment because when it was in neutral it was creeping forward with the clutch out.
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you might want to run a magnetic screw driver into the oil to see if you get any bits or check the color of the oil to see if it discolored.
Had the same issue, squealing tranny at about 5k miles on my Breva 1100. Mine was a bearing that failed. Seemed like it took about 6 weeks before I got it back.
MPH caught it during service and fixed it. I sure hated to hear that MPH is no longer a dealer, but sometimes you get to the point where it just isn't worth it anymore.
40k miles later, no problems.
Old Head
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I do know the clutch did need adjustment because when it was in neutral it was creeping forward with the clutch out.
That is NOT a clutch adjustment problem. THAT is the signs of there being too much DRAG on the transmission gears that are supposed to be floating in neutral. It is clear evidence that there was a problem inside the transmission and NOT a clutch problem.
Now I am more convinced that they lied about the fix.
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That is NOT a clutch adjustment problem. THAT is the signs of there being too much DRAG on the transmission gears that are supposed to be floating in neutral. It is clear evidence that there was a problem inside the transmission and NOT a clutch problem.
Now I am more convinced that they lied about the fix.
That's pretty harsh. Maybe, like many Guzzi "dealers" and "mechanics" they are just totally clueless.. and think they fixed it. <shrug>
Novaboy.. you're in a bad position. It *appears* that the dealer has trashed your transmission. I don't know what your course of action should be, but just letting it slide because it is quieter now isn't it.
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That is NOT a clutch adjustment problem. THAT is the signs of there being too much DRAG on the transmission gears that are supposed to be floating in neutral. It is clear evidence that there was a problem inside the transmission and NOT a clutch problem.
Now I am more convinced that they lied about the fix.
May be a descriptive issue here. Some people use the term the clutch is "out" meaning disengaged. Some also say the clutch is "engaged" when they have the lever pulled,confusing it with activated i guess.
For mine engaged means, engine driving the gearbox input shaft and disengaged means its not. IE.... engaged= clutch lever not pulled (lever out) and disengaged= lever pulled (lever in)
May have been a dragging clutch, its possible. Lets hope so.
Personally if I had a doubt about the gearbox being that low in oil I would have drained and checked it myself with someone witnessing it and recorded on my phone.
Ciao
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May be a descriptive issue here. Some people use the term the clutch is "out" meaning disengaged. Some also say the clutch is "engaged" when they have the lever pulled,confusing it with activated i guess.
Doesn't matter.
He said it was in neutral and the bike wanted to move forward. That is happening inside the transmission and has zero to do with the clutch.
Someone has stated something wrong.....
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No it couldn't.
Seems we are all in agreement .
Dusty
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Doesn't matter.
He said it was in neutral and the bike wanted to move forward. That is happening inside the transmission and has zero to do with the clutch.
Someone has stated something wrong.....
True, missed the in neutral part. Just trying to be hopefull
Ciao
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True, missed the in neutral part. Just trying to be hopefull
Ciao
Yeah, I was thinking maybe clutch adjustment until then, too.
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Sadly Novaboy, I'm in the same boat as you. Took a brand new 2014 V7R in for initial 500 mile maint. at my local MG authorized dealer where I bought it and best guess is the mechanic put about 20% of the required lubricant in the gear box. Squealing/screeching started at approx. 3600 miles. Vasco DG here diagnosed the issue perfectly. Took it back to the dealer in SLC, Utah and they supposedly spoke with Guzzi Corp HQ and were told to add fluid and see what happens. Noise was less but still there and now have 4400 miles and think it's getting a little louder. No longer riding it because of serious concerns about driveline lock up at speed on the road.
Spoke with service manager at the time I took it in around 3600 miles and they admitted their mistake. Spoke with Sales/business manager and he offered me a $50 gift card and verbal assurance should something happen they would step up and fix it. Asked for written assurance of this commitment as mechanics and sales staff and managers who knew about the issue leave but he refused.
Love the V7R and MG Brand. Despise the SLC dealership and weak customer service support via MG Corp HQ. Still pondering my next move. Pretty sure I'm done with the MG marque which is too bad because I would have been a loyal customer and had designs on a California and possibly buying a V7 for my daughter as a gift for attaining some significant educational milestones in her life.
Because of the above mentioned sub par customer experience with my Guzzi dealer my daughter is now on a brand new 2015, mildly customized HD 883 Iron, the California is out of the question, and I'm considering a new-in-the crate 2013 Honda F6B.
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It's sad that you're writing off a marque because of a poor dealer.
PJ, the DEALER is the face of the MG Marque. It's who the customer interfaces with. This isn't Chevy or Ford where there's a dealership on every main drag. This is MG, a low production, imported niche brand with a limited dealer and support network. I was willing to accept all of this based on the fact I had a dealer within 40 miles one way to work on the bike if issues arise. Since I have zero faith in my dealer now based on the fact that routine service is beyond the scope of their service department they are no longer an option. I'm not trailering the bike out of state for service. I'm loyal, but not blindly so and my loyalty has limits.
Because of some of the 'perceived' drawbacks of owning a Guzzi I mentioned above it's even MORE important for the dealers to ensure the small customer base they're trying to develop into a larger following is treated especially well. Guzzi dealers can't afford to alienate even a small part of their customer base compared to their much larger competitors.
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I don't blame Moto Guzzi if I screw up, but you blame Moto Guzzi if a dealer screws up. My perspective is different. I'm coming from somewhere else. I'm happy here.
PJ, I didn't "blame" MG for the dealer screwing up. What I wrote was "Despise the SLC dealership and weak customer service support via MG Corp HQ". MG can't be oblivious to the fact that this gear case under-filling has happened on numerous occasions on new bikes stateside as I've seen it discussed on several occasions here. I don't expect MG to foot the bill to fix my bike. What I do expect from them is that they set certain standards for the dealers that fly their banner. It's in their own best interest to do this. And in especially egregious cases intercede on the customers behalf via mediation and potential dealer sanctions.
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And that's one of the main reasons I'm where I'm at. The SLC, Utah MG dealership (apparently) didn't properly train their reps in front-line customer service, their sales manager doesn't understand the concept of service recovery when his front line folks fail to meet the customers expectations, nor (it appears) was customer service built into their business model and assigned any meaningful priority.
I'd love to come down to the dealership and do a 2-hour customer service seminar and run the whole staff through my situation using a Root Cause Analysis/ flowchart approach.
What the short sighted sales manger doesn't understand is how much money he lost by not making the situation his service department caused right. Since this experience early this year I've purchased two new bikes (Honda CB1100 that should have been a Griso had this not happened and had it been in stock and my daughters HD Iron 883 that prob would have been a black V7 Stone). And then there is initial service fees etc.
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This is where we started.
LOL..I feel like I just finished watching '50 First Dates'. Tell you what. When a dealer comes to Ogden I'll give them another chance. That leaves the door open. :thumb: By then I might be over the hosing I'll take on the V7R in the meantime.
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Probably not a bearing but one of the gears that normally spins on the shaft while in neutral has galled the shaft from lack of oil and is trying to seize causing the noise and creeping.
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I managed to put on about 200km since getting the bike back. There is still a noticeable whine that was never there before my service. At low rpm and closed throttle it's not there but becomes apparent at mid to high RPM. Bike also needs to be nice and warm, ridden for a few minutes before it rears it's ugly head.
Gonna call the dealer back this week, and see what they say...this time.
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Sorry, but wishing and hoping aren't going to fix a buggered gearbox.
Pete
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I know its buggered, just playing the game with the stealership.