Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Travlr on November 17, 2015, 12:52:49 PM
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Piaggio could have introduced the new midsize line with a 75 hp. V9 Cafe Racer.
It would have created a lot of excitement for the new line.
Instead they chose to invest their development dollars a 55 hp Sportster clone.
What does that tell me about Guzzi's future under Piaggio?
1. They are following the(very successful) HD business model. Tradition, cruisers, low tech.
2. This is a world wide strategy, not a USA strategy. Challenge HD in the India and Chinese market
where HD just introduced the 500/750 models. Low tech sells well there. Out cruiser HD in Europe
with the 1400 line. Mostly forget the USA where HD reigns supreme.
3. You've probably seen your last Guzzi sport bike. That goes to Aprilia.
4. The CARC bikes are likely done for. I see little room for something between the 900 and 1400.
Drop the sport tourer and replace it with a 1400 based touring bike. Replace the Griso with a 1400 based
power cruiser. Let the Capo be the adventure bike for Piaggio or do a V9 Stelvio.
I don't have a crystal ball, but when a company spends millions to develop a low tech sportster clone, it tells you something.
Mike
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1. They are following the(very successful) HD business model. Tradition, cruisers, low tech.
Since when has Guzzi ever been about high tech?
3. You've probably seen your last Guzzi sport bike. That goes to Aprilia.
:1:
4. The CARC bikes are likely done for. I see little room for something between the 900 and 1400.
Drop the sport tourer and replace it with a 1400 based touring bike. Replace the Griso with a 1400 based
power cruiser.
I can definitely see both happening.
By 2017, Guzzi will have two platforms, the 850(V9) and 1400.
Let the Capo be the adventure bike for Piaggio or do a V9 Stelvio.
I don't see a V9 Stelvio happening. Piaggio already have a light/mid sized ADV bike, the Aprilia Dorsoduro.
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3. You've probably seen your last Guzzi sport bike.
Yep, my next new bike will likely not be a Guzzi based on the current direction of management.
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...Sportster clone...
It's far from being that. To see what they have in mind, you need only go down the autostrada a bit and look at the recent (and expanding) air-cooled Scrambler line of models from Ducati. Horsepower is not what's in play there, either.
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It's far from being that. To see what they have in mind, you need only go down the autostrada a bit and look at the recent (and expanding) air-cooled Scrambler line of models from Ducati. Horsepower is not what's in play there, either.
I don't disagree, until you get to the last sentence. IIRC the Scrambler is putting down 2/4 miles in the mid to high 11 second range, quicker than the 796 Monster.
I'm not at my desk, but wanted to say 75 hp or close to that at the rear wheel.
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I don't disagree, until you get to the last sentence. IIRC the Scrambler is putting down 2/4 miles in the mid to high 11 second range, quicker than the 796 Monster.
I'm not at my desk, but wanted to say 75 hp or close to that at the rear wheel.
Damn , that IS fast :grin: I think Deke is referring to the fact that the scramblers aren't as fast as the Duc sport bikes .
Dusty
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I don't disagree, until you get to the last sentence....
I'm going by their marketing campaign, which is all about young attractive people having a good time in attractive Italian places and not about power and smoke and noise and long black marks on the highway (remember Honda's V65 advertisements?)
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Oh I absolutely agree and I think it's a good strategy (even if I don't remember the Honda ads in question).
But I've been making that comparison for a while.
Actually I've been talking about the similarities and attraction of a number of basic, customizable, entry-level priced bikes from marques with a Heritage to sell:
Sportster
Bonnie
Scrambler
V7 (and now V9)
Maybe even the Scout and Bolt, but that's stretching it.
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...it's a good strategy...
by the way... My name in lights (or at least as close as it ever will be). That's the CEO of Ducati (Claudio Domenicali) on the left with Troy Baliss at yesterday's announcements of two new Scrambler models. Keep your fingers crossed for something like real support for flat track racing by Ducati.
(http://www.dankalal.net/wildgoose/TroyLeathers.jpg)
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Ok you got me, why is your name on Troy's leathers?
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Ok you got me, why is your name on Troy's leathers?
Because Troy is wearing the leathers he used when he rode a Ducati in 2015 for the LBM flat track team as a teammate with Johnny Lewis--that is, he did as long as he wasn't out breaking bones (he had a rough year). Likely the Ducati folks scrutinized the company names on Troy's suit and just shrugged their shoulders at that one.
In a backwards way, the new scrambler flat tracker is styled from the actual flat track bike (which, in turn was styled in paint by the first scrambler models).
(http://www.dankalal.net/2015trip15/photo294.JPG) (http://www.dankalal.net/2015trip15/photo272.JPG)
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Deke , you failed to mention your sponsorship of the LBM race team .
Dusty
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I think he mentioned it in passing one time.. :smiley:
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I am afraid that this is just � sign, Moto Guzzi is not going to be my next Bike. � 850 engine with 55 hp when my old Griso 850 had 75? They are going to loose customers om this dissepointment!!!!
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I am afraid that this is just � sign, Moto Guzzi is not going to be my next Bike. � 850 engine with 55 hp when my old Griso 850 had 75? They are going to loose customers om this dissepointment!!!!
Half of MG's sales are the 40 some odd HP V7 , how is a 50 some odd HP engine going to harm sales?
Dusty
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Half of MG's sales are the 40 some odd HP V7 , how is a 50 some odd HP engine going to harm sales?
Dusty
Have you seen what Thriumph has rolled out? And they are not the only one.
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As I've mentioned before, I'm an antiquer. I *love* the history of Guzzi, and their involvement on the cutting edge of technology at the time. I feared the worst with the Piaggio takeover, and it is transpiring. Give Aprillia the sport stuff, and let Guzzi be the Italian Harley. A V9 LeMans would have gotten me to pry open my wallet. I'm now officially part of the problem. :smiley:
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Have you seen what Thriumph has rolled out? And they are not the only one.
Yes , but the old Bonnie was selling well , and it wasn't a fast bike either . Even the new 1200 isn't fast by modern standards . There is a whole class of young buyer that isn't interested in huge HP figures .
Dusty
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The new engine is a boat anchor. No float, no future! It is just here because the 750 mill is ready for retirement. Piaggio is looking at their toes in stead og looking at the Horizont. We need something else.
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The new engine is a boat anchor. No float, no future! It is just here because the 750 mill is ready for retirement. Piaggio is looking at their toes in stead og looking at the Horizont. We need something else.
If the 850 was 75 HP, it would likely be water cooled, because I don' think they can make 75 HP from an air cooled 850 and still meet the ever tightening emissions requirements.
If they did that, then, everyone here would lament that it isn't air cooled.
Can't win.
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If the 850 was 75 HP, it would likely be water cooled, because I don' think they can make 75 HP from an air cooled 850 and still meet the ever tightening emissions requirements.
If they did that, then, everyone here would lament that it isn't air cooled.
Can't win.
Water cooling is the only way to go. Why not, are you all content riding bikes with 45+ hp????
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The new engine is a boat anchor. No float, no future! It is just here because the 750 mill is ready for retirement. Piaggio is looking at their toes in stead og looking at the Horizont. We need something else.
So what you are saying is that YOU need a higher HP engine . That is fine , but the choices for fast bikes is vast, and while it would be cool to see MG produce a 100 HP standard , you can't blame them for surveying the market and deciding to build what is selling . HD has a huge market share , of which only an exceedingly small part is the V-Rod .
Dusty
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Water cooling is the only way to go. Why not, are you all content riding bikes with 45+ hp????
Often time yes, I am, as are many others on this forum. For those times I'm not, I've got my other 400ish pound air-cooled Vtwin of similar displacement, the Monster 796 (87 HP @ crank). I've ridden bikes that are much faster (160 HP, 480# bike, 145 HP, 450# bike). Yeah, I was impressed, but, I don't need it, esp. on the street. The M796 is modest by many people's standards, but, it keeps me entertained just fine.
Many people are satisfied with the performance of the V7 and bikes of similar performance. If they weren't, then the V7, Bonneville, Sportster 883, Bolt, etc wouldn't be such good sellers. Not everyone wants or needs a Super Bike.
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What I see is no future for this engine. Why develop � new engine when you know it is not meeting and have no chance og meeting euro5 or euro6
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First, Guzzi used to be all about high tech cutting edge bikes; then they got out of racing and that pretty much went to hell.
I think (and this is just like all the hand wringing that went on when the 1400 was introduced) we need to hold off burying the V9 until we've had a chance to ride it. It could be very premature. And we need to see how it does in the market place. We're not the market. Our future is very limited compared to the 20 and 30 somethings coming into the market. :Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu
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What I see is no future for this engine. Why develop � new engine when you know it is not meeting and have no chance og meeting euro5 or euro6
Who says it won't meet euro5 or euro6?
I'm sure they'll keep developing it. Maybe the architecture has room to be bored/stroked to 1,000CC, in which case, they'll just make it bigger as they do thinks to make it meet emissions.
The oil cooling, if done right with a thermostat could be as effective as water cooling at regulating engine temperature, allowing it to be operated more efficiently and cleanly.
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I think (and this is just like all the hand wringing that went on when the 1400 was introduced) we need to hold off burying the V9 until we've had a chance to ride it. It could be very premature.
:1:
I certainly wouldn't have bought the V7 on it's HP numbers. Aside from it's stunning good looks, it takes actually riding a V7 to appreciate it. Even then, there are those who would not be impressed or even like it. Those people are not the target market for the V7 or V9. I'll bet the V9 is every bit as enjoyable to ride as our beloved V7's.
And we need to see how it does in the market place. We're not the market. Our future is very limited compared to the 20 and 30 somethings coming into the market. :Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu
:1:
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If the 850 was 75 HP, it would likely be water cooled, because I don' think they can make 75 HP from an air cooled 850 and still meet the ever tightening emissions requirements.
Not with pushrods and rockers.
But, considering that the 1200 (really a 1151) make 100 PS at the rear wheel, an 850 with lifted camshaft can make 74, and have 82 written in the specs (and those are conservative estimates, since, reducing the displacement, specific power tend to increase).
The 1200 4V Guzzi will probably not be adapted Euro-4, but the BMW oilhead of the R Nine T will, and has similar displacement and power output.
So the Ducati 800 of the Scrambler (75 PS specs, and is an 800 2V).
So is not impossible.
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No way are they going to meet euro5 or 6 with an aircooled engine. You are looking at 1000ccm and 40hp at best, do not think that is even realistic.
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So the Ducati 800 of the Scrambler (75 PS specs, and is an 800 2V).
The 800 in the Scrambler is based on the 796 motor, which was spec'd at 87 PS. That makes me wonder if the power loss was only due to the desire to retune for better low end torque, or due to tuning changes to meet emissions.
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No way are they going to meet euro5 or 6 with an aircooled engine. You are looking at 1000ccm and 40hp at best, do not think that is even realistic.
Are you an engineer ?
Dusty
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Whats wrong with water cooling? Guzzi used to have inline threes, Superchargers, desmodronic valves and even a V8. Why should they be confined to an air cooled V2? They could make a longitudinal water cooled V4 street fighter or a big naked displacement V2 torque monster V7-simulacrum. Moto Guzzi's history is about pushing the limit not building a bike for the mature crowd who has settled that 55hp is "all you need". By all means make one or two of those models. But for gods sake give us something that snorts and stalls and tries to take your head off...
PS: if BMW can get 110hp out of an air cooled twin (R9T) so can guzzi...
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no dusty--- but I did stay at a days inn thirty years ago :boozing: :boozing:
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The 800 in the Scrambler is based on the 796 motor, which was spec'd at 87 PS. That makes me wonder if the power loss was only due to the desire to retune for better low end torque, or due to tuning changes to meet emissions.
Maybe both. The M696 had something like 8 more PS at the rear wheel than the Scrambler, but had an hole in the torque curve from 4000 to 4800 rpm that the Scrambler hasn't.
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Whats wrong with water cooling?
:1:
Look at what both BMW and Triumph have done. They both essentially retained their heritage with water cooled engines. Guzzi could do the same.
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no dusty--- but I did stay at a days inn thirty years ago :boozing: :boozing:
I doubt if our angry Norwegian will get that joke :grin:
Dusty
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The 2v 1200 Sport claimed 95hp at the crank, that was Euro 3.
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I doubt if our angry Norwegian will get that joke :grin:
Dusty
Døi not get the joke!
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Whats wrong with water cooling? Guzzi used to have inline threes, Superchargers, desmodronic valves and even a V8. Why should they be confined to an air cooled V2? They could make a longitudinal water cooled V4 street fighter or a big naked displacement V2 torque monster V7-simulacrum. Moto Guzzi's history is about pushing the limit not building a bike for the mature crowd who has settled that 55hp is "all you need". By all means make one or two of those models. But for gods sake give us something that snorts and stalls and tries to take your head off...
PS: if BMW can get 95hp out of an air cooled twin (R9T) so can guzzi...
Nothing is wrong with water cooling. But, many on this very forum don't like it. I prefer air cooling most of the year, but, don't hate water cooling. I currently have three water cooled bikes, once of which, the F800GT is my preferred cold weather bike, because it is water cooled. Air cooled motors struggle to get up to proper operating temps in cold weather, where water cooled motors are thermostatically controlled, and get up to temp more quickly and stay there.
They shouldn't necessarily be confined to an air cooled V2, but, that (along with the longitudinal shaft drive layout) is their heritage since the late 60's, which they seem to be following. It isn't much different than Triumph sticking to the parallel twin for their classics line. It is their heritage. Sure, they went to water cooling, and a 270 degree crankshaft, but, it still looks like a Bonneville. A Guzzi that isn't a longitudinal Vtwin won't look like a Guzzi to most people.
Yes, it would be cool to get some serious performance bikes out of Guzzi, but, they are building what they think will sell and make them successful. You can't blame them for that.
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D�i not get the joke!
A large American motel chain has adds that go something like this . "Are you a doctor ?" "No but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night" :grin:
Dusty
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But for gods sake give us something that snorts and stalls and tries to take your head off...
We're brothers by different mothers.. :smiley:
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"But for gods sake give us something that snorts and stalls and tries to take your head off"
Can I have an "Amen Brother" on that one?
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If the 850 was 75 HP, it would likely be water cooled, because I don' think they can make 75 HP from an air cooled 850 and still meet the ever tightening emissions requirements.
If they did that, then, everyone here would lament that it isn't air cooled.
Can't win.
Only if the made the water cooling look like an add-on. Only the lack of imagination means sticking a pizza box in front of the engine. Some riders don't like fake air cooling fins on water cooled bikes.
So, those 3 people won't buy one.
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...for gods sake give us something that snorts and stalls and tries to take your head off...
Here! Here! :boozing:
There's nothing better than starting my FCR-equipped Sport 1100 on a cool day after it's been sitting for a month, or so.
A few cranks on the throttle. A few starts and stalls. It vibrates, won't idle, fires on one cylinder and then the other, and slowly over a minute or two will smooth out and come to life, making glorious music through the full Staintune exhaust. And I haven't even left the driveway, yet... :bow:
(https://rocker59.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/2014-May-25-Ride-with-Michael/i-DzFj2wZ/0/M/DSCN3232-M.jpg)
Yeah. Guzzi is missing this in the lineup.
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Here! Here! :boozing:
There's nothing better than starting my FCR-equipped Sport 1100 on a cool day after it's been sitting for a month, or so.
A few cranks on the throttle. A few starts and stalls. It vibrates, won't idle, fires on one cylinder and then the other, and slowly over a minute or two will smooth out and come to life, making glorious music through the full Staintune exhaust. And I haven't even left the driveway, yet... :bow:
(https://rocker59.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/2014-May-25-Ride-with-Michael/i-DzFj2wZ/0/M/DSCN3232-M.jpg)
Yeah. Guzzi is missing this in the lineup.
They don't sell statuesque blondes either :laugh:
Dusty
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I for one will not remain brand loyal simply because of cinder orientation. I really like my 1200s as an all rounder. However, the DOHCwater cooled 750 in the Shiver is a GREAT engine. Modern is good. I do t plan on ignoring technology in favor of (by now, questionable) style.
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Evolution is a cool thing. Modern SB stared as the Breva/Nevada. In a few short years it has become the v7II, by every objective, and subjective, measure,a better motorcycle. So much so, that many, have traded/sold their Breva, v7 Classics and such, for the better v7II.
Now the v9 is coming. It doesn't have big power numbers, same complaint floated when the original Breva/Nevada was introduced, but it was well received, and become much more so when the v7classic came to be. Guzzi worked on making the power it had, more usable, and fun, and it worked. The V9 on paper seems like a mild evolution of the v7II, perhaps, but as the next few years go by, it seems to me, each year Guzzi will bring something more to the line. Naysayers, don't cry in a corner, enjoy the expansion. You will surely get a sporting, or semi-sporting Guzzi in the next couple years, but mother Piaggio has to go where the money meets the road first. And, who knows, put your ass on one, and you might find yourself, with a grin only Guzzi can provide.
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Why not keep developing the 1200 motor CARC bikes as more high tech (for Guzzi) water cooled (if that's what it takes?) To lose the Griso for this V9 seems a real set back. The 10 year old Griso - even a 2006 2 valve one, is more interesting to me than the V9. If they have to make them water cooled to meet emissions, so what ? They should be able to add that to what is currently a strong motor, add some power, lose some weight and have it look and sound fine. The Griso, Norge, and Stelvio are all fine bikes, and it does not seem to make sense to drop them. Hopefully, it is just going to take some time re-engineer them so they meet the new emissions. Then they'll sell like crazy
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They aren't dropping the Norge or Stelvio .
Dusty
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They aren't dropping the Norge or Stelvio .
Dusty
YET.
But Dog seems to be suggesting that there are no plans to make their motors compliant with 2017 EU standards, which suggests they're going away...
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I'll suggest the V9 replaces the V7, the 1400 motor replaces the 1200.
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I'll suggest the V9 replaces the V7, the 1400 motor replaces the 1200.
Probably correct .
Dusty
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If the 850 was 75 HP, it would likely be water cooled, because I don' think they can make 75 HP from an air cooled 850 and still meet the ever tightening emissions requirements.
Can't win.
The 800CC Ducati air-cooled, 400+-pound Scrambler puts out 75 HP.
.
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So what you are saying is that YOU need a higher HP engine . That is fine , but the choices for fast bikes is vast, and while it would be cool to see MG produce a 100 HP standard , you can't blame them for surveying the market and deciding to build what is selling . HD has a huge market share , of which only an exceedingly small part is the V-Rod .
Dusty
Have ya noticed H-D is have difficulty meeting there marketing projections?
The market for low, low power bikes is limited, perhaps closed to saturation.
Without expansion of the dealer network the future looks grim for MG...... Just my opinion, yours may differ.
Paul
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Have ya noticed H-D is have difficulty meeting there marketing projections?
The market for low, low power bikes is limited, perhaps closed to saturation.
Paul
The market is soft in general . Besides , if HD sells a million bikes one year , the next year the expect to sell a million and a half . The Star Bolt seems to be selling well .
Dusty
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I think one must be careful comparing anything to H-D. They are in a league of their own that defies comparison, logic or rational judgement.
I don't think the California 1400 ads that compared the superiority of the Cali to the H-D made much difference to anyone.
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<<I'll suggest the V9 replaces the V7, the 1400 motor replaces the 1200.>>
This is actually pretty logical. The V9 doesn't pretend to be a high performance engine, but like the V7, a capable, tractable power plant for a fun and versatile general purpose motorcycle. Let's see what it's really like when it gets here. The 1400, OTOH, is a big step up from the 1200 Griso motor in every way. Right now you can only get it in cruiser flavors, but I expect that will change down the road.
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<<I'll suggest the V9 replaces the V7, the 1400 motor replaces the 1200.>>
This is actually pretty logical. The V9 doesn't pretend to be a high performance engine, but like the V7, a capable, tractable power plant for a fun and versatile general purpose motorcycle. Let's see what it's really like when it gets here. The 1400, OTOH, is a big step up from the 1200 Griso motor in every way. Right now you can only get it in cruiser flavors, but I expect that will change down the road.
You jest!
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I do not.
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You've obviously never ridden a properly set up Griso. The Cali 14 is a fine bike but it's a cruiser with 'Cruiser' type gearing and performance. If that's what you want? Fine! But the Griso is a completely different animal.
Pete
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Pete , I think he is referring to the engine alone , not the whole bike .
Dusty
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Whats wrong with water cooling? Guzzi used to have inline threes, Superchargers, desmodronic valves and even a V8. Why should they be confined to an air cooled V2? They could make a longitudinal water cooled V4 street fighter or a big naked displacement V2 torque monster V7-simulacrum. Moto Guzzi's history is about pushing the limit not building a bike for the mature crowd who has settled that 55hp is "all you need". By all means make one or two of those models. But for gods sake give us something that snorts and stalls and tries to take your head off...
PS: if BMW can get 110hp out of an air cooled twin (R9T) so can guzzi...
Or you can use what Guzzi makes and make it your own...V7 with 54.99 RWHP....43 Ft/lbs of torque...
A work in progress...looking to be at 60+ when done.
I love the V9 concept. What a good platform to hot rod....
(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/20150826_185654_002_zps5qeuxhst.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/20150826_185654_002_zps5qeuxhst.jpg.html)
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Remember, I've owned both. I no longer own a Cali 14.
The mapping of the 1400's single RBW throttle body with the sophistication of the 7SM means that in stock trim, apart from the stupid, shaky, idle is superior and the twin plugs and extra 150cc make for a torquey motor. In comparison as rock Griso feels feeble, especially at the bottom end in the closed loop area. That is easily and cheaply fixed and the 1200 gives nothing away to the 1400 apart from weight, handling and range.
Pete
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Remember, I've owned both. I no longer own a Cali 14.
The mapping of the 1400's single RBW throttle body with the sophistication of the 7SM means that in stock trim, apart from the stupid, shaky, idle is superior and the twin plugs and extra 150cc make for a torquey motor. In comparison as rock Griso feels feeble, especially at the bottom end in the closed loop area. That is easily and cheaply fixed and the 1200 gives nothing away to the 1400 apart from weight, handling and range.
Pete
OK , so why wouldn't the 1400 work in a standard or Norge type of MC ? Can it be made to pass upcoming emission regs ?
Dusty
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The engine will fit. You'd need to either go to twin TB's or redesign the frame and running gear to get it to work. It's not the motor per-se, it's the ancillaries that will cause the headaches. You could dump the shitty 'Toaster' grills for starters. They're utterly pointless.
Pete
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Guzzi is fast becoming a joke with its piss-poor power.
The new Yamaha XSR900, with similar looks (so should appeal to same market?) will kick the sh1t outta the V9.
113bhp?
(http://www.roadracingworld.com/RFS/2015/11/16/ee078432-d2df-49ca-8eb9-35b2620bebeb.jpg?size=630)
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/new-bikes/2015/november/yamaha-xsr900/ (http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/new-bikes/2015/november/yamaha-xsr900/)
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The engine will fit. You'd need to either go to twin TB's or redesign the frame and running gear to get it to work. It's not the motor per-se, it's the ancillaries that will cause the headaches. You could dump the shitty 'Toaster' grills for starters. They're utterly pointless.
Pete
If you were going to guess , will Guzzi redesign the ancillaries or build an entire new platform ? Aren't you and Mark working on a hot rod 1400 ?
Dusty
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Guzzi is fast becoming a joke with its piss-poor power.
The new Yamaha XSR900, with similar looks (so should appeal to same market?) will kick the sh1t outta the V9.
113bhp?
(http://www.roadracingworld.com/RFS/2015/11/16/ee078432-d2df-49ca-8eb9-35b2620bebeb.jpg?size=630)
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/new-bikes/2015/november/yamaha-xsr900/ (http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/new-bikes/2015/november/yamaha-xsr900/)
Guzzi has never tried to compete on HP , and if you had been paying attention you would know that .
Dusty
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If you were going to guess , will Guzzi redesign the ancillaries or build an entire new platform ? Aren't you and Mark working on a hot rod 1400 ?
Dusty
Not worth the time and $$$. When I can pick up a wreck for peanuts we'll have a play. Until then? No point. The 1200 is fantastic.
Pete
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Guzzi has never tried to compete on HP , and if you had been paying attention you would know that .
Dusty
Thanks, but I do not require you to approve or disapprove every one of my opinions on this board. Also, I do not appreciate you feeling the need to ride me on this board, ok?
My point is that it can't compete. Only old farts would consider buying the slug that is the V9 over a direct competitor like the Yamaha, most likely similarly priced too.
The Yamaha will take the sales for those who like power
The Triumph Street Twin will take the sales of those who want retro
The Ducati will take sales of the v twin set
The slug that is the V9 Guzzi will trail along behind.
All this is of course only my opinion, which I am hope I am still allowed here?
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The 'Power' issue is, at least to me, irrelevant. If I want a more powerful bike there are many out there. What lets the V9 down is that it has what is probably a very nice motive package, then it is all thrown under a bus by putting it in a crappy frame with antediluvian suspension only one step removed from an Egyptian chariot of four thousand years ago. THAT is what I find unconscionable.
And how long have we, the 'Faithful' been waiting for a Nuovo LeMans/Daytona/MGS-02? Much too bloody long is the answer! Instead of something that keen riders have been gagging for we get this pair of insipid 'Lifestyle Accessories'. It really is the pits.
Pete
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The 800CC Ducati air-cooled, 400+-pound Scrambler puts out 75 HP.
And the earlier version of that motor in the Monster 796 puts out 87 HP. In fact, it is possible that the 12 HP drop from the M796 application to the Scrambler could be due to tighter emissions controls.
I guess I should have been more specific, and specified that an 75 HP 850cc pushrod motor that doesn't have Desmodronic valves and meets Euro 4 (and likely Euro 5) would likely be water cooled.
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The 'Power' issue is, at least to me, irrelevant. If I want a more powerful bike there are many out there. What lets the V9 down is that it has what is probably a very nice motive package, then it is all thrown under a bus by putting it in a crappy frame with antediluvian suspension only one step removed from an Egyptian chariot of four thousand years ago. THAT is what I find unconscionable.
And how long have we, the 'Faithful' been waiting for a Nuovo LeMans/Daytona/MGS-02? Much too bloody long is the answer! Instead of something that keen riders have been gagging for we get this pair of insipid 'Lifestyle Accessories'. It really is the pits.
Pete
IMHO, the two V9 models are aimed squarely at the U.S. market, where "Lifestyle Accessories" out sell performance bikes 10:1. You can't blame Piaggio for trying to go after some of that market. They are a business, and need to make money to survive.
As for the "antediluvian suspension" it is plenty good for the type of riding that most people (at least in the U.S.) do, esp. if you upgrade the rear shocks, even to a pair of $400 Ikons.
In fact, there are some, myself, and Kev M. included, for whom this, along with the modest power output, are able to "slow down" and enjoy the ride without having to go through each corner faster and faster. I have bikes with more power and better suspensions that I enjoy riding on the twisty mountain rides. But, the V7 serves the purposes that I bought it for just fine, and looks good doing it.
Remember, the largest selling segment in the U.S. (where I think the V9 is targeted) is "Low" 800+ lb. cruisers with very little ground clearance, and ponderous handling.
I think the V9 bikes will sell just fine.
As for the Nuovo LeMans/Daytona/MGS-02? It's been said before, it ain't happening. Aprilia are Piaggio's sporting brand. If you want that, pick up an RSV4 or a Tuano.
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I'm not a fan ot twin shocks, but the antedeluvian suspension is what Triumph will put, in 2016, not only on the Street Twin, but on the T120 and on the Thruxton bar the R, other than what the direct competitors ot the V9, Sportster and Bolt, use.
Guzzi, at least, use better brakes.
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Guzzi has never tried to compete on HP , and if you had been paying attention you would know that .
Dusty
Dusty, that sentence is incorrect. I went to the museum in Lario last month and the main theme was competitiveness and speed.
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Well, the merits of the new Guzzi and the machines currently produced will be judged by the market.
Sales will tell the story.
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The 'Power' issue is, at least to me, irrelevant. If I want a more powerful bike there are many out there. What lets the V9 down is that it has what is probably a very nice motive package, then it is all thrown under a bus by putting it in a crappy frame with antediluvian suspension only one step removed from an Egyptian chariot of four thousand years ago. THAT is what I find unconscionable.
And how long have we, the 'Faithful' been waiting for a Nuovo LeMans/Daytona/MGS-02? Much too bloody long is the answer! Instead of something that keen riders have been gagging for we get this pair of insipid 'Lifestyle Accessories'. It really is the pits.
Pete
:1: I have, and will continue to, derided HD for building overpriced, under engineered "lifestyle accessories". I'm not going to be a hypocrite and give Guzzi a pass when they sit on their haunches and launch a vanilla machine that does nothing to advance the breed. Jas, I can have a great time riding my exGF's Vespa. That doesn't mean we should all be riding Vespasi.
Scorpione- don't let Dusty's pokes get you bent out of shape. He didn't mean nothin by it. BTW, I couldn't agree with you more- the Yamaha XSR900 looks like a fantastic bike. ...and the TZ color scheme ??? Faggedaboudit! Smart move, Yaha.
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Jas, I can have a great time riding my exGF's Vespa. That doesn't mean we should all be riding Vespasi.
You totally mis-read my post. I was in no way implying that just because I (and others) appreciate the V7 for what it is that EVERYONE should be riding a V7. I was just trying to demonstrate that not all-out-performance is not the priority for many buyers, and that many buyers actually appreciate many types of bikes (which is why I can't live with just one). I was also explaining why Moto Guzzi is making the V9, and that while it isn't the type of bike many of us want, it may still be a good thing for Moto Guzzi to do. If Moto Guzzi no longer makes a bike you want, there are many other brands to choose from.
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So everyone agrees Guzzi does not make high horsepower bikes but why can't they make an engine today that at least matches the horsepower of the ones thay made 40 years ago?
The V7 Sport made more than the V7 of today and the if this 900 only makes 55 as some say its far less than my 850 LM which makes 62 at the rear wheel, dyno tested. This with a nearly stock engine only blue printed. Where are they measuring the 55 HP? If its at the crank then its even more pathetic.
A four valve with separate intake fueling should easily make 75 HP at the rear wheel with modern head design and fuel maps.
Pete
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Thanks, but I do not require you to approve or disapprove every one of my opinions on this board. Also, I do not appreciate you feeling the need to ride me on this board, ok?
My point is that it can't compete. Only old farts would consider buying the slug that is the V9 over a direct competitor like the Yamaha, most likely similarly priced too.
The Yamaha will take the sales for those who like power
The Triumph Street Twin will take the sales of those who want retro
The Ducati will take sales of the v twin set
The slug that is the V9 Guzzi will trail along behind.
All this is of course only my opinion, which I am hope I am still allowed here?
Stop constantly insulting everyone and you are entitled to any opinion you like .
Dusty
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Dusty, that sentence is incorrect. I went to the museum in Lario last month and the main theme was competitiveness and speed.
And how long has it been since that was relevant ? MG's heyday was the early 1970's , mostly built on the sales of loop framers . Look , no one is suggesting that MG shouldn't build a sporting motorbike , but to believe they can compete with the Japanese , BMW , Triumph , or the other two Italian companies in the FAST bike market is dreaming . Also , to suggest the introduction of a motorbike like the V9 that will probably sell in decent numbers will destroy Guzzi , or tarnish its image seems off the mark . They are a company , a very small company , they need to make money or the marque will disappear .
Dusty
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My youngest son is 33 years old and he rides. Last year, he moved from sport bikes to a Harley dresser. He & I have had many conversations re. Moto Guzzi and why I like them and he doesn't. He and many others from his generation see Guzzi as an "old man's bike" and have zero interest in owning one. He also doesn't like the FACT that there are so few dealers who sell & maintain them. He works in the IT industry.
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My youngest son is 33 years old and he rides. Last year, he moved from sport bikes to a Harley dresser. He & I have had many conversations re. Moto Guzzi and why I like them and he doesn't. He and many others from his generation see Guzzi as an "old man's bike" and have zero interest in owning one. He also doesn't like the FACT that there are so few dealers who sell & maintain them. He works in the IT industry.
And Harley dressers are a young man's bike :laugh:
Dusty
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Thanks, but I do not require you to approve or disapprove every one of my opinions on this board. Also, I do not appreciate you feeling the need to ride me on this board, ok?
My point is that it can't compete. Only old farts would consider buying the slug that is the V9 over a direct competitor like the Yamaha, most likely similarly priced too.
The Yamaha will take the sales for those who like power
The Triumph Street Twin will take the sales of those who want retro
The Ducati will take sales of the v twin set
The slug that is the V9 Guzzi will trail along behind.
All this is of course only my opinion, which I am hope I am still allowed here?
The problem is that your opinion isn't based on anything concrete but you're spewing it out like it's fact. I haven't sold a V7 or V7II to a single 'old fart'....why would the V9 be any different? There are *many* reasons why someone would choose a V9 over this Yamaha, or a Triumph (which more than one person has traded in to me for a V7 btw), or a Ducati. That's a fact.
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Young men's fancy for Harley dressers notwithstanding, I'm betting the folks in Mandello didn't develop the 1400 motor just for cruiser duty, although that was a logical place to start. It is a really versatile powerplant (shaky idle, which I consider a feature not a bug, included). I'm betting we see it in more than one non-cruiser iteration down the road a bit.
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And how long has it been since that was relevant ? MG's heyday was the early 1970's , mostly built on the sales of loop framers . Look , no one is suggesting that MG shouldn't build a sporting motorbike , but to believe they can compete with the Japanese , BMW , Triumph , or the other two Italian companies in the FAST bike market is dreaming . Also , to suggest the introduction of a motorbike like the V9 that will probably sell in decent numbers will destroy Guzzi , or tarnish its image seems off the mark . They are a company , a very small company , they need to make money or the marque will disappear .
Dusty
Guzzi pulled the plug on factory race teams in 1957.
In the 1970s, 80s, 90s, and 00s, there were privateer efforts with V7 Sports, 850 and 1000 LeManses, Daytona 1000s, MGS01s.
Guzzi has a fairly good presence in AHRMA. There's usually always a few spine frame racers there, and a few Tontis.
The last big deal in Guzzi racing was Dr. John's endurance championship in the late 1980s.
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So everyone agrees Guzzi does not make high horsepower bikes but why can't they make an engine today that at least matches the horsepower of the ones thay made 40 years ago?
The V7 Sport made more than the V7 of today and the if this 900 only makes 55 as some say its far less than my 850 LM which makes 62 at the rear wheel, dyno tested. This with a nearly stock engine only blue printed. Where are they measuring the 55 HP? If its at the crank then its even more pathetic.
The answer is simple: emissions requirements. That, and Guzzi is trying to stay traditional by not going over to water cooling.
Oh, and, as has been discussed before on this very forum, the public HP numbers for the V7 Sport and other bikes of that era (850LM included) were inflated. Typical real world HP for a V7 Sport is 40 at the rear wheel, which is about the same as a 1TB (2013 and newer) V7. AND, that V7 sport puts out WAY more harmful emissions.
A four valve with separate intake fueling should easily make 75 HP at the rear wheel with modern head design and fuel maps.
Pete
Absolutely! The BMW F800GT engine is 798cc twin, so, only slightly larger than the V7, and slightly smaller than the V9.
It is a four valve/cylinder water cooled engine that makes 90 HP. It can be done with air cooling too. The Monster 796 has an 803cc air cooled desmodronic valve actuation. It makes 87 HP, and likely doesn't meet Euro 4, and definitely not Euro 5 emissions.
It likely just isn't possible to get more power out of a simple air cooled 2 valve pushrod V-twin. Guzzi is sticking with this type of engine, because it keeps with tradition, and also good enough for the intended market.
The target market for these bikes could care less that they make only 50 or 55 HP (crank HP). If they cared so much about HP numbers, they'd be shopping high powered sport bikes, or 1,800cc + behemoths.
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And how long has it been since that was relevant ? MG's heyday was the early 1970's , mostly built on the sales of loop framers . Look , no one is suggesting that MG shouldn't build a sporting motorbike , but to believe they can compete with the Japanese , BMW , Triumph , or the other two Italian companies in the FAST bike market is dreaming . Also , to suggest the introduction of a motorbike like the V9 that will probably sell in decent numbers will destroy Guzzi , or tarnish its image seems off the mark . They are a company , a very small company , they need to make money or the marque will disappear .
Dusty
You can draw a parallel to Alfa Romeo. One of the oldest most revered racing marques in history who also went through times of hardship. Even though they couldn't compete with BMW during modern times they still managed to produce red, raspy, handling little cars like the GTV2000 and today the 4C. In some instances down on engine performance but made up for it with handling and character. I'm ok with guzzi Being the underdog in the HP department but they have to make up for it somehow. They have to at least try. The V9 is not trying.
The V9 is to Guzzi what the Arna is to Alfa...
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Guzzi pulled the plug on factory race teams in 1957.
In the 1970s, 80s, 90s, and 00s, there were privateer efforts with V7 Sports, 850 and 1000 LeManses, Daytona 1000s, MGS01s.
Guzzi has a fairly good presence in AHRMA. There's usually always a few spine frame racers there, and a few Tontis.
The last big deal in Guzzi racing was Dr. John's endurance championship in the late 1980s.
Yeah , loved watching the MG's race at the AHRMA events .
1957 , damn , so long ago but is does point out that Guzzi pulled out even before the Japanese came calling . Not an easy thing to compete with the big 4 , as even Ducati , BMW , and Triumph have learned .
You can draw a parallel to Alfa Romeo. One of the oldest most revered racing marques
in history who also went through times of hardship. Even though they couldn't compete with BMW during
modern times they still managed to produce red, raspy, handling little cars like the GTV2000 and today the
4C. In some instances down on engine performance but made up for it with handling and character. I'm ok
with guzzi Being the underdog in the HP department but they have to make up for it somehow. They have to at least try. The V9 is not trying.
The V9 is to Guzzi what the Arna is to Alfa...
I thought one of the main attributes of the V7 series was its handling and ability to punch above its weight class , the V9 appears to be an extension of those qualities .
Dusty
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For Reader's Digest version - just read bold/Italics/Underline
Maybe part of the problem is that I have always had only a little more than 0 interest in modern bikes.
I mean, I keep TRYING to like them. I feel like I should because of all the "performance" they offer me.
I'd get a press bike for a week out in California and AZ, or run up to BMW NA in North Jersey and pick up an RT from their fleet. I'd borrow bikes from local dealers or go to demo rides at rallies or dealers, I'd visit a friend who put me on a 180 hp bike for a week etc. I liked them well enough in short periods, I could see the fun.
So I bought an R1100RS and kept it in the fleet for years (but it got 1/4-1/2 the mileage of the other bikes I owned in the same time frame took me 6-7 years to put 40k on it, when I put that on a Sportster in 2), and a Breva 1100 later and it was the same story (5 years and 15k vs. a Jackal that was over 30k in the same timeframe). And I tried a 100 rwhp Buell just a couple of years ago but didn't even keep it much more than a year as I wanted to ride the other bikes more.
At some point I had to face the fact that I was trying to want something instead of just actually wanting it.
Part of it is ergonomics.
Part of it is power that was constantly tempting me to use it.
Part of it was just plain a better chassis that begged to be pushed harder and faster through the turns.
And the result was a very different riding experience.
At the same time I've always been drawn to the classic style bikes of Harley, Triumph, Guzzi, even Kawasaki (W650) and Honda (CB1100). Hell I had ZERO interest in Ducati other than thinking the Monsters were OK, until first the Sport Classics and then the Scrambler, but there literally has never been another Ducati that I wanted (I could happily own a Scrambler).
It's not about me being old (I'm probably median age or less for this board). Ok, maybe that's not saying much. How about the fact that I bought my first Harley at 25 and a dresser (RK) by 28. It wasn't because they were loud (it wasn't) or outlaw styled (it wasn't). I bought it for feel, function, ease of maintenance, and most of all just plain RIDING.
In just over 2 years I'd had that Road King in 30 states, had ridden it coast-to-coast, and had about 65k miles on it. Contrast that to the R1100RS with only 40k after 6 years.
On my Harleys or Guzzis I could run maybe the speed limit, or the speed limit plus 10. I could take turns a double the silly posted yellow suggestion signs (most of the time). I could run fast enough in the twisties to catch newbies on much better bikes, or fast enough to keep at least some of the better riders in sight. And once they started riding to the level that they would disappear I didn't want to follow. Maybe it's just me, but to do that they had to ride at speeds around blind corners that just seemed plain stupid and on straightaways that were haul me to jail high, often right by people's driveways, farmers fields. The hope of doing anything but pucker if there was a deer was just not there. Even on highways, I'd pass someone doing 70 and speed up a little to do it, then come across someone doing 80 and speed up to pass him, then next thing I know I'm pushing a ton on a major highway (with at least some traffic) for no reason at all.
The performance available by bikes pushed me to ride them at a level where I had to be doubly diligent about watching for kids, cops, traffic, deer.
The entire experience changes from FUN to WORK, from relaxation to stress, from pleasure to (at times) a headache.
Don't get me wrong, I love machines for their capabilities as well as their beauty. Or stated another way I see the beauty in capability. I'm NOT saying I don't want Guzzi to build a water-cooled Griso or Neo-LeMans for the faithful.
But at the same time I could care less about a Stelvio or a Norge (and honestly a Griso or Neo-LeMans too) so I don't bother reading threads about them. I certainly don't waste my time going to a thread about a Stelvio and bitching about how much I don't like it and how Guzzi is wasting their resources and how it's the end of days because it's NOT a Retro/Retro Standard/Big Block V7 etc. etc. etc.
That Yamaha is more interesting to me (and visually appealing) than anything they've made in a LONG TIME. But it's not getting me in the door and, even if I bought one based on a fall-in-love test ride my history shows it would be gone again in short order.
The truth of the matter is I have come to love the V7 BECAUSE it's NOT cutting edge, because it is not as smooth and capable as possible etc.
I love it because:
1. Feel - it's got a great riding position, great handling (even if "primitive" to modern sportbikes) that connects the rider with the experience.
2. Looks - it's a looker.
3. Efficiency - great mpg, great range
and yeah
4. It doesn't tempt me to ride ridiculously fast (even if I'm still plus legal speeds easily enough). It doesn't isolate me so much from the speed and terrain that I feel like superman and push the envelope too much.
I love the V7 because of balance (it has everything I want in a bike). It makes a lot of sense both to my heart and my head.
So the Roamer isn't really my style, but the visual cues of the Bobber really speak to me in a lot of ways. More importantly I EXPECT the function is going to be the same as my V7 - maybe a bit less range, but a bit better ergonomics. I could really see getting one.
Why is it a bad thing that Guzzi builds something like this? I guess some on this board, perhaps rightfully think that it is a sign Guzzi is NOT going to build a Neo-Lemans, Neo V11 Sport, Neo-Griso and if that's true I'm sorry for you. Especially with the brand love you show. Yeah, you'll have to buy a used one or go to another brand (Aprilia, Ducati, etc. to seek those bikes). But we don't know that for sure yet and there is a lot of hand wringing for maybe nothing. I don't take pleasure in your pain/worry, but still some of you spend SO MUCH FRIGGING TIME TELLING PEOPLE LIKE ME WHO LIKE THESE BIKES THAT we are wrong and our taste sucks that maybe I'm losing some of the sympathy.
Honestly the only bikes I would buy from Guzzi today are the V7II, Bobber, and maybe the Eldo or Audace. But with a house full of little kids and little time in the foreseeable future to tour entirely cross country the Eldo/Audace are probably silly. But that's me. I'm not telling you what to like.
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But at the same time I could care less about a Stelvio or a Norge (and honestly a Griso or Neo-LeMans too) so I don't bother reading threads about them. I certainly don't waste my time going to a thread about a Stelvio and bitching about how much I don't like it and how Guzzi is wasting their resources and how it's the end of days because it's NOT a Retro/Retro Standard/Big Block V7 etc. etc. etc.
Great post. Several points I agree with. But, this struck me the most.
I will never understand the thread shitters who click on, and take the time to read, threads about things in which they have no interest, then bitch about it.
Listening to the olde d00ds on here (who will never buy a small block of any kind) bitch about Guzzi broadening the range, really wears me out.
Really. If it doesn't interest you, don't click it!
I don't care anything about Loops or sidecars or steel cut oats, so I stay away or only skim them as part of my moderator duties.
Dwelling on subjects in which we have no interest is a waste of everybody's time...
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If hp was such a big thing we'd all be driving Corvettes, Mustangs and Camero's - or Raptor's.
But we don't. Huge market for station wagons, mini vans and full sized cars as well as your Fiat 500's and such.
Same with bikes. I think Piaggio has pretty much nailed it. You want your hp and your peg scrapping holy hell bent for an early grave bike? They got 'em. Won't have the Moto Guzzi marque on it though. Want a fun standard machine that runs like a "proper" motorcycle? Looks like the V7 or V9 is your baby.
For better or worse; it looks like the Griso was the last bike with a Moto Guzzi label with any sporty pretentions. Now it would be cool if they used the 1400 motor to come up with a sport tourer/ cruiser sport to "replace" the Griso. Personally; give me a Standard with the 1400 (or smaller, the 1200 already has plenty of poop for me) with a factory option for a Don Vesco Rabid Transit knock off and I'd be one happy customer. :azn:
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I thought one of the main attributes of the V7 series was its handling and ability to punch above its weight class , the V9 appears to be an extension of those qualities .
Actually, they don't handle all that well.. stock. They have built to a price suspension. Sorry, small block fans.. I'm one also.. but it's true. The frame is fine, and the brakes are better than most.
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Actually, they don't handle all that well.. stock. They have built to a price suspension. Sorry, small block fans.. I'm one also.. but it's true. The frame is fine, and the brakes are better than most.
Yeah , friends tell me the stock suspension resembles a buckboard , but that can be fixed , right ?
Dusty
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Great post. Several points I agree with. But, this struck me the most.
I will never understand the thread shitters who click on, and take the time to read, threads about things in which they have no interest, then bitch about it.
Listening to the olde d00ds on here (who will never buy a small block of any kind) bitch about Guzzi broadening the range, really wears me out.
Really. If it doesn't interest you, don't click it!
I don't care anything about Loops or sidecars or steel cut oats, so I stay away or only skim them as part of my moderator duties.
Dwelling on subjects in which we have no interest is a waste of everybody's time...
:1:
Dean
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Actually, they don't handle all that well.. stock. They have built to a price suspension. Sorry, small block fans.. I'm one also.. but it's true. The frame is fine, and the brakes are better than most.
The problem with these posts (on both sides of the issue) is that they are all subjective.
When I SAY that my V7 handles wonderfully I mean:
1. It's light and turns quickly.
2. It leans farther than I never need.
3. It's suspension handles a "reasonable" level of road irregularities.
Jenn's Duc 696 CAN go even faster through most turns, but I almost NEVER do, because the V7 is already doing 70 through that sweeper marked 30 or 35.
Jenn's Duc does handle a bump mid-corner better than the V7, but the V7 doesn't put me into the weeds.
But Jenn's Duc is probably toward the top end of handling ability for such things.
And the V7, maybe it's more mid-to-rear of the pack of SPORT BIKEs, but for retro standards like Bonnies, and Sportys, etc. it's "Better than Average".
So it all depends on your point of view.
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Actually, they don't handle all that well.. stock. They have built to a price suspension. Sorry, small block fans.. I'm one also.. but it's true. The frame is fine, and the brakes are better than most.
Should should have a check box on the order sheet for upgraded shocks. Even $400 Ikons are way better. I'd check that box, even if it was the $400 retail price, which would be nice profit for MG, as they get 'em for wholesale, and save the cost of the cheapos too.
New shocks are the first upgrade my newly purchased V7 Special is going to get.
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It's a matter of perspective.
Coming off of bikes with much more expensive suspensions, it's noticeable.
Chuck (me, too) has put a lot of miles on Guzzis with Ohlins bits that have been dialed-in.
I love the V7 for its light weight, standard ergos, and fun-factor. But, its suspension really does contrast with the other Guzzis I've owned. Its stable mate, my 1996 Sport 1100 has much better forks. And its Marzocchi M1 forks are vintage tech.
I agree, though. In its niche, V7 isn't bad. I've not ridden a New Bonneville in a long time, but the early '00s examples I sampled had super-sucky suspensions, front and rear.
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It's a matter of perspective.
Coming off of bikes with much more expensive suspensions, it's noticeable.
I agree 100%. One of my other bikes is a Monster 796 with a Ohlins shock on it. I just enjoy the V7 for what it is. And, what it is, is in need of better rear shocks to save my spine. I'm not looking to make handle as well as a modern bike, just more comfortable on rough PA roads.
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I've been reading this V9 threads with great interest. I'm eager to see how the ergonomics feel relative to the V7. If it's better, then the V9 will probably be my next Guzzi. If not, then I'll get another V7.
I came "this close" to buying back my old Griso. Though it's charisma was still very compelling, I couldn't get past the weight. I need something lighter, so I bought a Nine T when they when BMW was offering the $1,500 rebate. It's a great bike, especially since I put it on a diet, and could be all the bike I need. Except that I still want a Guzzi in my garage.
Oh, but it's hard to hear myself think over the sound of nashing teeth from riders upset about the release of the V9. Most experienced riders -- the kind who like to post on this and similar forums -- wanted something more enervating. Predictably, they are the ones complaining right now. The V9 wasn't designed for them. But I like what Guzzi has done, making a simple attractive bike for the masses.
There's the small minority of experienced riders who see a bike like the V9 as, potentially, "just right." I might be one of those.
The suspension will need upgrading, that's a given. On an Egyptian chariot you were more likely to die from a spear through your chest anyway, so why worry about suspension. With the V7 you could at least lift yourself out of the seat for the bumps you know are coming. The same stock shocks on a cruiser frames will be spine-crushers.
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The suspension will need upgrading, that's a given. On an Egyptian chariot you were more likely to die from a spear through your chest anyway, so why worry about suspension. With the V7 you could at least lift yourself out of the seat for the bumps you know are coming. The same stock shocks on a cruiser frames will be spine-crushers.
FWIW, I can't see these ergos being any extreme than that of my Sportster, and I can lift myself out of the saddle onto the pegs no problem there too... YMMV but I wouldn't worry about it.
I also wouldn't call anything where my legs weren't almost straight with my feet way out in front of my knees a "cruiser" but I'm funny that way.
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FWIW, I can't see these ergos being any extreme than that of my Sportster, and I can lift myself out of the saddle onto the pegs no problem there too... YMMV but I wouldn't worry about it.
I also wouldn't call anything where my legs weren't almost straight with my feet way out in front of my knees a "cruiser" but I'm funny that way.
Yeah, you were the guy that said the 1400 didn't have forward controls.. :smiley:
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FWIW, I can't see these ergos being any extreme than that of my Sportster, and I can lift myself out of the saddle onto the pegs no problem there too... YMMV but I wouldn't worry about it.
I also wouldn't call anything where my legs weren't almost straight with my feet way out in front of my knees a "cruiser" but I'm funny that way.
Fair enough. Let me put it this way. Since I felt the strong need to upgrade the shocks on my V7 Classic, I expect to feel it even more strongly on the V9.
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Yeah, you were the guy that said the 1400 didn't have forward controls.. :smiley:
Like suspensions it's a matter of perspective.
TO ME there are 3-4 types of controls.
REARsets - means foot BEHIND knee, knee tilted forward/down
MIDMounts - means foot BELOW knee, knee forward and level, bent ABOUT 90 degrees give or take
FORWARDS - means foot way in front of knee, leg straight or almost, foot pointing UPWARD.
I call my Sportster and V7 MIDmounts - though to be honest, my foot is at least partially behind my knee on both.
Now part of it is I also classify it more in the riding position than the control position. I.E. I move my feet back and hang them off the pegs by the ball of the foot most of the time I'm riding, which means I slide them forward slightly (only an inch or two) when I'm operating the controls.
So things like the Cali 1400, or even the Scout occupy this funny position BETWEEN Forwards and Mid mounts, but generally considering my foot position, I call them MIDMOUNTS.
That's MID MOUNT to me, not Forward:
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/pfgEX-K8Kxc/maxresdefault.jpg)
(http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/crop/201309/1-harley-davidson-road-king--201403_600x0w.jpg)
(http://www.motorcycledaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/041013top-i2.jpg)
THESE ARE FORWARDS:
(http://www.motorcycle.com/gallery/gallery.php/d/204254-3/2010_HD_OEM_Dyna_Wide_Glide_BJN57399.jpg?g2_GALLERYSID=TMP_SESSION_ID_DI_NOISSES_PMT)
(http://www.hdforums.com/forum/attachments/dyna-glide-models/193828d1309205064-lovin-my-2011-wide-glide-17th-june-050.jpg)
(http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/motorcycles/2013models/2013-Harley-Davidson-FXDWGDynaWideGlide1.jpg)
Now I realize such a definition means a single physical example of a bike might be MidMounts to one rider and Forwards to the next. But absent a better objective measurement the definition works for me (even if everyone doesn't share it).
I guess we could say
Rear Sets = behind motor
Mid Mounts = next to motor
Forwards = in front of motor
But that would USUALLY work out the same as my current definition, and I'm sure there are some odd bikes/motors that would cloud it too.
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I think your definition works pretty well.
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And Harley dressers are a young man's bike :laugh:
Dusty
He rides with a local Harley group and many of the people his age are riding Harley dressers. Wasn't that way when I was younger but things change. What's interesting to me is that I asked him if he wanted my Guzzi (for free) when I either quit riding or croaked and he said, NO. So, not everyone appreciates the beauty of a Guzzi like the people on this forum. Their loss...........but, it does speak volumes for the future of Guzzi.
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He rides with a local Harley group and many of the people his age are riding Harley dressers. Wasn't that way when I was younger but things change. What's interesting to me is that I asked him if he wanted my Guzzi (for free) when I either quit riding or croaked and he said, NO. So, not everyone appreciates the beauty of a Guzzi like the people on this forum. Their loss...........but, it does speak volumes for the future of Guzzi.
It is that ""local Harley Group" thing that he may be more interested in than anything else . Nothing wrong with wanting to belong , just that it is hard to locate a "local Guzzi riding group" . My local crew extends from Galveston , to Springfield MO , to South central NE , with stops in NW AR and SE Kansas . Kinda tough to meet up for breakfast , although we do get together a few times a year .
Dusty
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When I first saw the pics of the V9 I thought "oh no". But you know, for all those people who wanted the V7 to have more horsepower, well, it seems to have it within what appears to be the basic architecture of the V7 chassis and bottom end/gearbox castings and swingarm mount. They will be different I guess, but it appears to be a bigger small block.
Styling wise, I like the V7 and if I hadn't already built my version of it and be happy with it I would have bought a V7 and made it a Cafe.
Bearing in mind I am having some age-related fitment issues these days relating to my legs and what is a much shorter (vertical distance) frame dimension of the V50 Monza frame from seat to peg, If not resolved by re-engineering it will result in my having to move the Monzada on after 26 years so it's a real problem.
That said, I would be JUST as interested in buying a V9 and changing the tank and seat as I would buying a V7 and fitting a fairing. One of the things I have always enjoyed about the Moto Guzzi world is that the bikes have rarely looked as I would have them. There are a few but some you go..."what were they thinking...?" But underneath the can be GREAT donor bikes! I think the poor old Nevada is one of the underrated bikes from Guzzi. Underneath that styling lies a frame and engine like all the others. Who remembers that lovely V7 tanked and seated bronze and white lovely thing posted here a while back? Cheap donor bike, put your own spin on it and there you go, value-for-money-personalised-to-your-own-taste cafe racer or V7 look-alike. Who remembers the cafe'd Bellagio also here a while back? YUM! . Bellagios standard do nothing for me but under that exterior....... AeroLario?Lario heads on a V7 engine? The SuperLario? All sorts seen on here, and this will (hopefully) be a good bike to start with.
Guzzi's used to appeal to the people who would adapt, modify, fiddle, and generally march to the beat of their own drum. NEVER would you see two Guzzi's at a rally that were the same, they would be modified to some extent.
As for performance, well, your situation may vary. In my province it's getting harder to find a road you can really fang on without finding others on it too. So for me it is a case of finding enjoyment in riding a small bike quickly and within 'defensible limits" IE a bit over-ish. Like KevM said. It's also why I bought a '73 C10 Chev truck rather than the C4 Corvette I was also offered. At least no-one EXPECTS much from the C10 but she can go when pedaled....otherwis e we just cruise and the traffic suddenly isn't an issue :laugh: :laugh:..... burble burble burble......
So I am suprising myself in that I don't necessarily like the styling straight off, but hey, what a project it would be to make into what I want.
The first person to get an under tank and seat mould off a V9, make a V7 top tank and seat so you get the V7 look (and a bigger tank!) and go into production. You'll sell heaps (and probably one to me). The aftermarket world must be rubbing its hands with glee right now.
Kev B
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I find the styling of the Roamer revolting, but I'm really intrigued by the engine. Having spent my entire adult life with the '74 T, I'd be VERY interested in spending the next 15 years or so (the remainder of my riding career) with a modern equivalent: An 850-900 longitudinal V-twin with antilock brakes and dependable FI. A V9 T3 with "standard" ergos (pegs right under my butt, please), V7-style tank and a real pillion-comfortable standard saddle. Failing that, I'd accessorize a new V9 to match my Authentic '70s Lifestyle. I hope it would be lighter than the original T-series thanks to plastic bits, tubeless tires and a tighter frame -- Maybe 480 lb dry?
And while I was writing this, KevB posted the identical thought. So that's two of us.
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Judging by the company's year by year changes to the V7 line, it can be said the company listens to its customers and makes INCREMENTAL changes to address their concerns. (if the costs can be recovered and sales targets meet)
So each year I would not be surprised to see new tanks/seats/covers/bling items as the popular models mature.
The V9 is just a baby.
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic047/charlie-mccarthy-looking-at-baby-otrcat.com_zps4hyzpn4w.jpg)
Lets see how the baby grows up.....
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I find the styling of the Roamer revolting, but I'm really intrigued by the engine. Having spent my entire adult life with the '74 T, I'd be VERY interested in spending the next 15 years or so (the remainder of my riding career) with a modern equivalent: An 850-900 longitudinal V-twin with antilock brakes and dependable FI. A V9 T3 with "standard" ergos (pegs right under my butt, please), V7-style tank and a real pillion-comfortable standard saddle. Failing that, I'd accessorize a new V9 to match my Authentic '70s Lifestyle. I hope it would be lighter than the original T-series thanks to plastic bits, tubeless tires and a tighter frame -- Maybe 480 lb dry?
And while I was writing this, KevB posted the identical thought. So that's two of us.
Kev.. I won't quote the whole thing with pix, etc.. "I" consider anything with my feet in front of me "forward" controls, and I don't like them, Sam I am. The Jackal I had was tolerable. Barely. When I changed it to a sidecar rig, it made it much more tolerable.. you didn't *need* to use your legs with that. Yeah, you need to slide your ass around, etc. but it wasn't a motorcycle any more.
the V9 ergos look about like the Jackal to me.
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Lets see how the baby grows up.....
Oh.. maybe.. but I don't *have * a lot of time for the glacial pace of Guzzi to evolve. :smiley: I had been really looking forward to maybe something I would like.. finally. Didn't happen. I'll keep what I have. <shrug>
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Kev.. I won't quote the whole thing with pix, etc.. "I" consider anything with my feet in front of me "forward" controls, and I don't like them, Sam I am. The Jackal I had was tolerable. Barely. When I changed it to a sidecar rig, it made it much more tolerable.. you didn't *need* to use your legs with that. Yeah, you need to slide your ass around, etc. but it wasn't a motorcycle any more.
the V9 ergos look about like the Jackal to me.
Fair enough. I didn't invent the terms and have no copyright. :wink:
And you're free to like or hate what you want.
To me there's not a big difference between the Jackal foot position and Cali 1400. The Scout is kinda starting to push it, but I could probably live with it.
So the V7 vs the V9 is fine.
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It is that ""local Harley Group" thing that he may be more interested in than anything else . Nothing wrong with wanting to belong , just that it is hard to locate a "local Guzzi riding group" . My local crew extends from Galveston , to Springfield MO , to South central NE , with stops in NW AR and SE Kansas . Kinda tough to meet up for breakfast , although we do get together a few times a year .
Dusty
I had to go to New Jersey from Central Pennsylvania for my last two Guzzi rides, although there are a few within an hours drive of me.
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Well, I'm kinda thinking one of these:
(http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y518/mjptexas/Sportster%20pics/V9%20Romer_zpsekwat9xr.jpg) (http://s1278.photobucket.com/user/mjptexas/media/Sportster%20pics/V9%20Romer_zpsekwat9xr.jpg.html)
would make a great replacement for this:
(http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y518/mjptexas/Sportster%20pics/774F2D1B-93BA-46E8-9DD2-C64FDDFCEBCD_zpszr5egezo.jpg) (http://s1278.photobucket.com/user/mjptexas/media/Sportster%20pics/774F2D1B-93BA-46E8-9DD2-C64FDDFCEBCD_zpszr5egezo.jpg.html)
Plusses:
- Lighter
- Has to handle better
- Won't shake as much
Minuses
- Won't be as fast (the Sportster above is a 1200).
- Won't be as comfortable (I've already made the prerequisite changes to the Harley $$$ seat, shocks, fork springs $$$)
So with the addition of a Corbin Gunfighter, shocks, Agostinis when they are available, I think the V9 would be a nice replacement. Kinda glad I didn't drop the hammer on one of the great V7 deals I've seen.
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Well, I'm kinda thinking one of these:
(http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y518/mjptexas/Sportster%20pics/V9%20Romer_zpsekwat9xr.jpg) (http://s1278.photobucket.com/user/mjptexas/media/Sportster%20pics/V9%20Romer_zpsekwat9xr.jpg.html)
would make a great replacement for this:
(http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y518/mjptexas/Sportster%20pics/774F2D1B-93BA-46E8-9DD2-C64FDDFCEBCD_zpszr5egezo.jpg) (http://s1278.photobucket.com/user/mjptexas/media/Sportster%20pics/774F2D1B-93BA-46E8-9DD2-C64FDDFCEBCD_zpszr5egezo.jpg.html)
Plusses:
- Lighter
- Has to handle better
- Won't shake as much
Minuses
- Won't be as fast (the Sportster above is a 1200).
- Won't be as comfortable (I've already made the prerequisite changes to the Harley $$$ seat, shocks, fork springs $$$)
So with the addition of a Corbin Gunfighter, shocks, Agostinis when they are available, I think the V9 would be a nice replacement. Kinda glad I didn't drop the hammer on one of the great V7 deals I've seen.
:thumb: Though personally I could see owning em side-by-side. But that's almost the exact model they had in mind with the V9.
I'll say I'm surprised you're saying yours shakes much. I mean, sure the motor sorta rocks to and fro on the mounts, but going down the road she's pretty darn smooth. I mean, not Goldwing smooth, but as smooth as I want anything.
Still, GO FOR IT!
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...I'll say I'm surprised you're saying yours shakes much. I mean, sure the motor sorta rocks to and fro on the mounts, but going down the road she's pretty darn smooth...
Kev,
It's relative. The Sporty is plenty smooth, until I compare it with two of the three Guzzis I have. I'd be really surprised if the V9 doesn't beat it in that area.
One of the saving graces about the Sporty is that, unlike the Monster or the Griso, it doesn't continually scream 'Ride me faster ride me faster'. It's the least likely bike in the group to score a traffic ticket.
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As one who is posting with no inclination to buy a V9 as I am sooooo in lurve with the Breva, one thing that seems to be passed on down the line are the low quality rear suspension units. Mine are set with the spring settings as soft as they will go, and they are spot on with a pillion on the back. When johnr and myself were on the Guzzi rally down south I did not touch the spring settings and the bike felt spot on. I am 72kgs and John is about 100kgs. As you can imagine, when it hits a bump in the middle of a corner it can get exciting when riding solo.
I have found that one does not need a 185hp Hyabusa to do the 100kph speed limit. I can live with 48hp especially as the Breva is really comfortable on a long trip. I get the feeling that more and more people are coming to the conclusion that the best bike is not necessarily the one that is fastest from one power pole to the next.
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Kev,
It's relative. The Sporty is plenty smooth, until I compare it with two of the three Guzzis I have. I'd be really surprised if the V9 doesn't beat it in that area.
One of the saving graces about the Sporty is that, unlike the Monster or the Griso, it doesn't continually scream 'Ride me faster ride me faster'. It's the least likely bike in the group to score a traffic ticket.
Oh I hear ya. I'm just thinking that I've always thought the V7 was a bit more vibey than the Sporty at the handgrips. Simply because the Sporty motor is more isolated. It's not as smooth as say the Cali 1400, but it does smooth out pretty well to me.
That's not to say I have the slightest objection to the feel of the V7 at the handlebars though.
But this is all subjective stuff anyway.
Get the V9!
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Oh I hear ya. I'm just thinking that I've always thought the V7 was a bit more vibey than the Sporty at the handgrips.
Get the V9!
Interesting Kev, I do not notice any vibes through the handlebars on the Breva. Wonder if the shape of them or the weights in them are different.
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Do Breva motors run backwards ... oh never mind :embarrassed:
Dusty
No, it's only the water down the plug 'ole Dusty. :wink:
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No, it's only the water down the plug 'ole Dusty. :wink:
Dawns on me that it is pretty arrogant of us Northerners to decide which way is backwards , maybe we should start a campaign to declare the Southern direction proper , and the Northern manner backwards . Only seems fair after all of these years to give the Southern half due recognition . And what about this Down Under thing , who decided that , some Pom probably :grin:
Dusty
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Interesting Kev, I do not notice any vibes through the handlebars on the Breva. Wonder if the shape of them or the weights in them are different.
Well, they are different motors (2TB vs 1TB).
When I compared then side by side (C vs Stone) few years ago I thought the C felt smoother, but weaker (though neither by much).
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So I finally did take my V7 stone 2014 black out for a ride today. I think my herniated disk back issue may be getting a bit better.
It felt wonderful (the bike ride I mean).
This is my first motorcycle. However, I grew up riding scooters in India and do ride an old Honda scooter here for fun sometimes.
I didn't even mean to buy a bike. I walked into the showroom looking to test drive a Piaggio Beverley 350 scooter, and test drove the guzzi v7 because the dealer owner asked me to.
I felt I could ride it easily. I loved its light weight compared to other bikes, its reliable engine, fuel injection, and its shaft drive.
I still enjoy riding it, in spite of a bad back. I LOVE the way it looks. It is a cool bike with soul and history. My girlfriend says it is sexy.
Most sports bikes today, you need a track to realize their potential. I think its more fun to drive a V7 fast, than to drive an Aprilia Rs4 SLOW. The V7 stone seems plenty fast to me.
I may be an "old fart" but why in heck do you need a bike over 50 hp for driving on regular roads?
High and flat torque is so much more important for real world driving assuming you want to keep your license.
Looks, soul and that ineffable feeling you get when you ride are more important than riding at frenetic RPMs and speeds, at least for me.
I am CONFIDENT in saying I would never have bought a bike if it was not for the V7.
:bike-037:
-akilesh
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So I finally did take my V7 stone 2014 black out for a ride today. I think my herniated disk back issue may be getting a bit better.
It felt wonderful (the bike ride I mean).
-akilesh
That is good news that your back issue may be getting a bit better. Does that mean that you're going to keep the V7? :thumb:
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Thanks for your good wishes,and good question. I am pondering that myself. We'll see if the ride flared my back up over the next day or so.
The reason I rode it was to get the rear lights cable replaced that Piaggio finally sent. I also asked John, the tech at Brookside motorcycle to dial the suspension softer. The stock setting is too harsh, especially for our fine streets in Tulsa.
That made a HUGE difference. the softer suspension, along with the gel seat, may make it good.
I guess right now my thought is: if it is in my destiny I will keep it, if not it will go. I'll let my over-self guide me.
:grin:
-akilesh
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You now realise akilesh that Guzzi's are addictive; not perfect mind you :rolleyes: but addictive. You used the term "soul" and I think that sums it up.
Enjoy that V7. :thumb:
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So I finally did take my V7 stone 2014 black out for a ride today. I think my herniated disk back issue may be getting a bit better.
It felt wonderful (the bike ride I mean).
This is my first motorcycle. However, I grew up riding scooters in India and do ride an old Honda scooter here for fun sometimes.
I didn't even mean to buy a bike. I walked into the showroom looking to test drive a Piaggio Beverley 350 scooter, and test drove the guzzi v7 because the dealer owner asked me to.
I felt I could ride it easily. I loved its light weight compared to other bikes, its reliable engine, fuel injection, and its shaft drive.
I still enjoy riding it, in spite of a bad back. I LOVE the way it looks. It is a cool bike with soul and history. My girlfriend says it is sexy.
Most sports bikes today, you need a track to realize their potential. I think its more fun to drive a V7 fast, than to drive an Aprilia Rs4 SLOW. The V7 stone seems plenty fast to me.
I may be an "old fart" but why in heck do you need a bike over 50 hp for driving on regular roads?
High and flat torque is so much more important for real world driving assuming you want to keep your license.
Looks, soul and that ineffable feeling you get when you ride are more important than riding at frenetic RPMs and speeds, at least for me.
I am CONFIDENT in saying I would never have bought a bike if it was not for the V7.
:bike-037:
-akilesh
What a great post amidst all of the gnashing of teeth about the new V9s. I hope your back heals up, and you're able to keep the bike. Happy riding!
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Another data point- my friends sent me a picture of the Bobber, and I sent back some pix of the roamer.
Both buy lots of bikes. One I even wondered if he owned a tire gauge he trades in so often. One likes and owns two Guzzis, the other never has.
Both loved them. I figure Guzzi knows quite well what they are doing. I'm guessing these are Galuzzi-designed? He knows more than most of us about this sort of thing.
I like them too.
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This has been some entertaining reading for sure.
What it tells me is that Guzzi has identified where they think they can sell bikes. The market will decide if they are correct or not.
One thing I do think about all the "new" stuff is that the days of building what the manuf liked or could may be done. That may not work anymore in today's world of speciality marketing. Rather, the manufactures need to build what they think will sell.
The next few years (as always with so much new) will be very interesting.
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Thanks for your good wishes,and good question. I am pondering that myself. We'll see if the ride flared my back up over the next day or so.
The reason I rode it was to get the rear lights cable replaced that Piaggio finally sent. I also asked John, the tech at Brookside motorcycle to dial the suspension softer. The stock setting is too harsh, especially for our fine streets in Tulsa.
That made a HUGE difference. the softer suspension, along with the gel seat, may make it good.
I guess right now my thought is: if it is in my destiny I will keep it, if not it will go. I'll let my over-self guide me.
:grin:
-akilesh
Given your back problems, consider changing out the rear shocks for a much better ride. You don't have to spend $1K, I bought a set of Ikons from MG Cycle and they are a big improvement. I didn't realize how much of a difference until I rode someone else's that still had the stockers on.
For about $350 investment, it might mean you keep the bike.
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=197_200&products_id=2632
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What he said.
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Agreed. If setting the stock shocks softer helped, a pair of ikons might be just what you need.
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Given your back problems, consider changing out the rear shocks for a much better ride. You don't have to spend $1K, I bought a set of Ikons from MG Cycle and they are a big improvement. I didn't realize how much of a difference until I rode someone else's that still had the stockers on.
For about $350 investment, it might mean you keep the bike.
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=197_200&products_id=2632
:1:
Mine is the bike Cam rode. Even after setting the stock shocks softer, they still suck. I rode it today after riding one of my other bikes, and OMG, the stock shocks suck.
I will be buying a pair of Ikons as soon as the budget will allow.
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This is great advice guys. Thanks a lot for everyone's encouragement as well.
Yes, I think softer shocks can do nothing but help.
I am going to do some Physical Therapy, ride the bike a little as winter will allow, and then if I decide to keep it I am DEFINITELY getting the Icons.
:grin:
-akilesh