Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Jules Ballore on November 19, 2015, 12:14:31 AM
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has anyone done this conversion? and if so what were the effects afterwards? Any benefits from it? Are there any detriments to doing it? is there anything to watch for if it's done?
I got an offer to powder coat my engine but I would have to take it entirely apart which I already have it sitting out of the frame. But I started thinking about what if I had it converted since I'll have it apart anyway.
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I personally do not think 1000cc cylinders are worth it unless you go the whole way. Bigger better flowing carbs, balance the crank, hotter cam, installing big valve heads that are worked over.
It would be a monumental investment of 3 or 4 thousand dollars.
If you only install 1000cc jugs you will get more torque. If puling a tug this would be a good way to go. I have three 850's that all needed new cylinders when I bought them and each time I had the choice to go with bigger bore. Each time I chose to stay stock and have not regretted the decision.
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Are you serious? Or just trolling?
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Are you serious? Or just trolling?
I'm serious. It just occurred to me if i choose to powder coat the engine then I'll have to take the whole thing apart and then I might have the option to replace the chrome bores with aluminum, but i could also just replace it with a bigger one. I was just wanting to know if anyone has done it and had any regrets or noticed something different. I currently already have the engine sitting.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/137785096@N03/shares/Uy14bA
(https://www.flickr.com/photos/137785096@N03/shares/Uy14bA)
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It's been a popular mod since the 1000 Convert came out in 1975, after 40yrs, I guess no one has done it.
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replace the chrome bores with aluminum,
can't wait to see that..
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I have the parts to do it to my LeMans. It cost less than 1/4 of what some here predict but the bike already had the head and carbs. Mike Rich can open up the head with bigger valves and intake but that will likely cost what the 992 kit cost. Then you have to open up the crankcase for the bigger spigots. I did that myself. Cost zero. Cam is up to you. I think the LeMans cam is the same as the T3. Then a pair of carbs. You can find 40mm carbs at a wrecking yard. They don't have be to Delortos.
A friend built an 1100 out of a LMIII 850 using a stroker crank and big bore kit. It would pull just about any stock 2 valve bike Guzzi ever made.
Pete
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has anyone done this conversion?
I have a feeling he meant "Has anyone here done the conversion, who'd be willing to share information about it."
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I have the parts to do it to my LeMans. It cost less than 1/4 of what some here predict but the bike already had the head and carbs. Mike Rich can open up the head with bigger valves and intake but that will likely cost what the 992 kit cost. Then you have to open up the crankcase for the bigger spigots. I did that myself. Cost zero. Cam is up to you. I think the LeMans cam is the same as the T3. Then a pair of carbs. You can find 40mm carbs at a wrecking yard. They don't have be to Delortos.
A friend built an 1100 out of a LMIII 850 using a stroker crank and big bore kit. It would pull just about any stock 2 valve bike Guzzi ever made.
Pete
I don't disagree when you have 75% of the expensive parts already you can go the conversion for about 1/4 of what some here predict.
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I considered it on the T5, but did not for some of the reasons listed. The T5 has small valves and carbs so would take a lot more than just the jugs to make it go much better.
If I decide to upgrade it will be by buying a complete engine, and then have the heads worked, new cam, etc. But, then I'd want to upgrade the suspension too. Oh well :)
So, consider what you really want out of the bike and spend money accordingly.
PS mine is still stock :)
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BTW when I see 1000 I assumed a 992 kit but if the OP just wanted to turn his T3 into a 949 G5 then cost would be minimal.
Pete
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has anyone done this conversion? and if so what were the effects afterwards? Any benefits from it? Are there any detriments to doing it? is there anything to watch for if it's done?
I got an offer to powder coat my engine but I would have to take it entirely apart which I already have it sitting out of the frame. But I started thinking about what if I had it converted since I'll have it apart anyway.
I've done three 850 Eldorado engines (virtually identical in spec. to the T3 engine) with 88 mm Gilardoni "big bore" cylinder kits. If you choose the kits that already have the "spigots" turned down, no machining of the case will be necessary. The crank shaft really should be balanced to allow for the extra piston weight. Without doing so, there is slightly more vibration in certain rpm ranges and bearing life will suffer long term.
The only noticeable "benefit" is slightly more torque and a very small gain in horsepower.
FWIW, I would not have the engine powdercoated.
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Save your money. Next thing I suppose you want to cafe it. Hope not. Leave the T3 as it was meant to be. They are perfection in their own little tiny niche.
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I've done several 88 mm kits on 850 motors. As long as you're completely tearing it down and plan on replacing the cylinders anyway, I would recommend it. I would strongly advise balancing the components whether you stay at 850 or bump it up. All the engines I've had balanced were out of spec even when reusing original parts. Like the G5or Convert, your bike has 30 mm carbs and the heads are identical. You may opt for a hotter cam but, that opens up another can of worms. I ran a clients, 950 balanced LAPD against a fresh unbalanced 850 Eldorado and blew his handgrips off. Go for it!
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I have posted this before but you may not have seen it. On my T-3 I did the following:
1,000cc kit
Original V-7 Sport cam
36mm round slides
Heads ported to the carbs and polished
Heaver valve springs
K&N filters
It makes a great overall performing engine across the range. The only thing that I would have wished I had done was balancing. It has noticeable more vibration. Here is a dyno run chart of the engine.
(http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww107/jpeters16/DSCN0483.jpg) (http://s710.photobucket.com/user/jpeters16/media/DSCN0483.jpg.html)
GliderJohn
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I have posted this before but you may not have seen it. On my T-3 I did the following:
1,000cc kit
Original V-7 Sport cam
36mm round slides
Heads ported to the carbs and polished
Heaver valve springs
K&N filters
It makes a great overall performing engine across the range. The only thing that I would have wished I had done was balancing. It has noticeable more vibration. Here is a dyno run chart of the engine.
(http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww107/jpeters16/DSCN0483.jpg) (http://s710.photobucket.com/user/jpeters16/media/DSCN0483.jpg.html)
GliderJohn
awesome torque! Is the hp rated at the crank or rear wheel?
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...If you choose the kits that already have the "spigots" turned down, no machining of the case will be necessary. The crank shaft really should be balanced to allow for the extra piston weight. Without doing so, there is slightly more vibration in certain rpm ranges and bearing life will suffer long term.
The only noticeable "benefit" is slightly more torque and a very small gain in horsepower.
FWIW, I would not have the engine powdercoated.
:1:
I used SP kit with barrels turned down, flat top pistons. I liked the extra torque, then I liked it better still when I put LM11 heads & carbs on it - low comp, pulls like a train, love it.
Balancing gives nicer motor.
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Measured at the rear wheel.
GliderJohn
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I was confused when you said you could powder coat the engine, do people really do this?
I would have thought that would make an air cooled motor run hotter? I suppose it could look great on display (until it chips) so if that's your thing...
I'd suggest going the vapour/water blasting approach, I've not done an engine yet but my hubs look better than new!
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A long time ago, NASA did a big study on the cooling of air cooled engines, with different thicknesses of paint on the fins. It was found that the smoothing effect of paint on cast fins helps laminar flow, and up to 0.002" of paint, the cooling increased. It then fell, and thicker than 0.005" it fell to less than bare metal, because of insulating effect of the coating. So a thin coat of paint won't hurt, and may help. I doubt if powder coating is normally just 0.002"-0.004" thick.
If anyone wants to read the long and involved study, I can post a link to it.
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Measured at the rear wheel.
GliderJohn
:thumb:
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Don't powdercoat the engine. Here's a site where you can see what Guzzi components can look like cleaned and polished. There is also some cheesecake.
http://www.cyclegarden.com/
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A long time ago, NASA did a big study on the cooling of air cooled engines, with different thicknesses of paint on the fins. It was found that the smoothing effect of paint on cast fins helps laminar flow, and up to 0.002" of paint, the cooling increased. It then fell, and thicker than 0.005" it fell to less than bare metal, because of insulating effect of the coating. So a thin coat of paint won't hurt, and may help. I doubt if powder coating is normally just 0.002"-0.004" thick.
If anyone wants to read the long and involved study, I can post a link to it.
Thanks Jim, this is where it gets interesting!
I'd made a couple of assumptions:
1. powder coat acts as an insulator since it was a different medium & thus impedes heat dissipation (perhaps not enough to notice in practical applications).
2. that turbulent flow is more effective for cooling than laminar flow, essentially convection currents are created on the surface & help draw heat away.
I reckon my most interesting chat about this was with a radiator bloke as a kid, he suggested that if the air flows too quickly it doesn't have time to conduct heat away. For any air speed & temp there's an optimal speed for cooling so I can see that there's plenty of scope for painting to help with certain applications.
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Don't powdercoat the engine. Here's a site where you can see what Guzzi components can look like cleaned and polished. There is also some cheesecake.
http://www.cyclegarden.com/
I love the website, Guzzi Girls kept crashing my browser though. I still really want my engine to be black not shiny. I want a matte black. I just don't care for grey or shiny looking engines. I like Matte black because i like to jump on and ride and not worry about how dirty my bikes engine may look. I had a buddy of mine come look at my engine last night and he offered to bring his engine stand next week so we can lift it up to clean and possibly spray some VHT Flame Proof Primer and paint on it. But i think powder coating would look better and last longer. The owner of my local Guzzi dealer is actually the one who recommended I powder coat the engine. He said it will last a long time since he's had his and his wife Guzzi's powder coated over 40 years ago and they still hold up. He used to race Guzzis and won a national record on one in Georgia. Him an his wife were very nice.
The only thing i'm afraid of is if I take apart my engine entirely to get powder coated I'm afraid i will mess up putting it back together again. I have never taken an engine apart before, I'm no Mechanic.
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I love the website, Guzzi Girls kept crashing my browser though. I still really want my engine to be black not shiny. I want a matte black. I just don't care for grey or shiny looking engines. I like Matte black because i like to jump on and ride and not worry about how dirty my bikes engine may look. I had a buddy of mine come look at my engine last night and he offered to bring his engine stand next week so we can lift it up to clean and possibly spray some VHT Flame Proof Primer and paint on it. But i think powder coating would look better and last longer. The owner of my local Guzzi dealer is actually the one who recommended I powder coat the engine. He said it will last a long time since he's had his and his wife Guzzi's powder coated over 40 years ago and they still hold up. He used to race Guzzis and won a national record on one in Georgia. Him an his wife were very nice.
The only thing i'm afraid of is if I take apart my engine entirely to get powder coated I'm afraid i will mess up putting it back together again. I have never taken an engine apart before, I'm no Mechanic.
I've seen PJ1 wrinkle black on motors, its sold in aerosol cans, however I do not know the longevity. If you do the 1,000cc swap, it looks like GliderJohn's setup is pretty solid
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2. that turbulent flow is more effective for cooling than laminar flow, essentially convection currents are created on the surface & help draw heat away.
You should read the details of the study. It seems for the particular conditions of fins on engine cylinders, that's not the case:
www.lakeserv.net/kaw/files/nasa_paint_test_p5.pdf (http://www.lakeserv.net/kaw/files/nasa_paint_test_p5.pdf)
Also, I've heard the argument about air moving too fast to effectively carry heat away, but facts don't back it up.
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I'd go with the spray paint . How it turns out depends on how much prep you do. To powdercoat , I believe the engine will have to have some kind of media blasting beforehand. That scares me. I would have the frame powdercoated though.