Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: MotoG5 on November 27, 2015, 08:53:12 AM
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Well the end of another riding season has come to an end here in the Midwest. Snow and a good layer of ice on the roads this morning. Tons and sand and salt soon to follow. I like many here have been riding and wrenching on Guzzis for quite a few years and I must say things have fundamentally changed on how I see my chosen brand of bike. Over the years I have owned and at least ridden at one time or another just about anything Guzzi ever imported to the US. Until this year when ever asked about Guzzi I have promoted and recommended them at every opportunity. That has come to an end along with this riding season. The things that have been going on in the last three years with quality control issues, poor dealership relations and just plain dishonesty have combined to make me tell anyone interested that they had better get VERY well informed about the model and year of bike they may be looking at. And, if they do not have a good solid background in bikes and working on them that it would be best to pick something else to buy. I lay the blame on Piaggio. I find it hard to forgive selling me a bike, 12' Stelvio NTX , that they knew was going to fail and even after that making it extremely difficult to get the needed parts to make it right. More than that making the parts process so difficult that my dealer finally threw in the towel after years of being with Guzzi. To be honest my bike is still on the road and I was able to keep ahead of the problems and ultimately the coast in dollars, thanks to great support from my dealer, was not too great. But the future has become much more uncertain if the bike will continue to run and not finally cost a great deal more to keep it going. Also I as a basically honest man could not sell this bike to anyone with out full disclosure as to where things are with it. So unless I want to take a bath on it I am pretty much stuck with things as they are. If I were to buy a new bike this next year for first time in over forty years it would most likely not be a Guzzi. A sad state of affairs indeed.
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you could always get a Vstrom or something that you just ride and not wrench.
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I don't think anything described in the OP is anything new under the Guzzi sun. Been riding them since 1986, they are quirky as is the company that sells them. There are cultural differences (just like other foreign manufacturers) that will sometimes make your experience rather mind blowing.
Yes, if you get a Suzuki VStrom then you will be free of the tyranny of Piaggio. So there's that. :thumb:
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Piaggio is no different than most big companies, in many ways. Vehicle manufactures are well noted for willing selling products with known safety defects, let alone know defects of another kind. Look at very partial list, GM-faulty ignitions , Ford- faulty gas tanks, Toyota-faulty ignitions systems, the list goes on and on.
All I'm saying is these big companies care about making money, don't ever think they care about you.
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All I'm saying is these big companies care about making money, don't ever think they care about you.
Sad , but true .
Dusty
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My riding partner just swore off BMW after losing patience over his K1600 problems. Sold it after 2 years.
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Well the end of another riding season has come to an end here in the Midwest. Snow and a good layer of ice on the roads this morning. Tons and sand and salt soon to follow. I like many here have been riding and wrenching on Guzzis for quite a few years and I must say things have fundamentally changed on how I see my chosen brand of bike. Over the years I have owned and at least ridden at one time or another just about anything Guzzi ever imported to the US. Until this year when ever asked about Guzzi I have promoted and recommended them at every opportunity. That has come to an end along with this riding season. The things that have been going on in the last three years with quality control issues, poor dealership relations and just plain dishonesty have combined to make me tell anyone interested that they had better get VERY well informed about the model and year of bike they may be looking at. And, if they do not have a good solid background in bikes and working on them that it would be best to pick something else to buy. I lay the blame on Piaggio. I find it hard to forgive selling me a bike, 12' Stelvio NTX , that they knew was going to fail and even after that making it extremely difficult to get the needed parts to make it right. More than that making the parts process so difficult that my dealer finally threw in the towel after years of being with Guzzi. To be honest my bike is still on the road and I was able to keep ahead of the problems and ultimately the coast in dollars, thanks to great support from my dealer, was not too great. But the future has become much more uncertain if the bike will continue to run and not finally cost a great deal more to keep it going. Also I as a basically honest man could not sell this bike to anyone with out full disclosure as to where things are with it. So unless I want to take a bath on it I am pretty much stuck with things as they are. If I were to buy a new bike this next year for first time in over forty years it would most likely not be a Guzzi. A sad state of affairs indeed.
It's a shame that you've had that experience. Many years out of warranty, my dealer got my parts for the rollerization for my 09 Stelvio from Guzzi gratis. My wife's '11 Griso also got done in about a one month of down time. Also gratis except for labor, which I still don't consider that big a deal. I don't understand why the dealer couldn't get parts. I think my dealer waited 2 weeks for them. All in all after dealing with manufacturers on manufactured defects (rot in hell Porsche) Guzzi handled the cam issue pretty well from my perspective.
Since its been rollerized, I've flogged the crap out of the Stelvio for another 18,000 miles. No issues. I don't give it a second thought. My original plan was to trade it in at 100,000 miles, but at this point, I don't think I'll bother.
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While I tend to agree with all that has been said, I'm also tired of the sense of entitlement in our current culture. It wasn't that long ago, you bought a vehicle and it was yours. Little or no warranty, no safety recalls, nothin'. If something broke, you fixed it or had it fixed. I can't help but think much of the angst people have over Moto Guzzi is because they didn't honor this or that. You spend all your time arguing with the dealer and factory reps. You work yourselves into a tizzy and then swear off the brand forever. We have enough stress in our lives without worrying about the repair of our vehicles.
I'm sorry you've had trouble with your bike. I sincerely am, but the only thing I can blame on Moto Guzzi is poor quality.
I don't think expecting a Guzzi engine to go more than 16K with out eating its top end and trashing the mains is a feeling of entitlement. I agree with you on most of the issues the bikes have had in the past but this one is a little to far over the line to give em a pass on. I opened up my bike out of concern for what I was hearing from other owners and found that I was just in time to catch the tappet failure before it was to late for the lower end too. I am not going to swear off the brand and plan on riding the one I have now but if did replace it I would be real careful if it was going to be another NEW Guzzi.
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In a way, ive always been happy to buy older model used vehicles. The price is right and despite some blemishes, the bugs are well documented and worked out by that point. Like Bad Chad says, they all have problems and if you read reviews on any brand made you will find people disgusted with the lack of recalls or warranty back-up, it's just part of the game of making $$$.
It's sad to see you discouraged with Guzzi, I suggest a nice used model with the problems sorted to keep you happy through the dark times! They are lovely quirky machines.....
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The best dealers , and long time owners throwing in the towel. :embarrassed: :undecided: :clock:
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Where I live there are three dealership within an hour (my dealer is fifteen minutes away) of driving. Go an extra thirty minutes and it is up to five, two hours add two more for a total of seven. All are doing just fine. With two specialty shops catering to MG and Italian bikes. V7 Racers sell with some speed. V7 Standards a bit slower. The big bikes linger. There is always a deal to be had. I doubt any ever go a MSRP. And all offer test rides. So, in big metro areas MG has a toe hold. The V7 Racer sells on looks. The young buyers don't know a Heron head from a Hemi head. As for HP they don't care. It just looks cool. They don't race and never will. They don't tour and never will. They like old school cool. The new Roamer will do just fine with these guys. I talk to them all of the time in my job. Vespa does well too.
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Piaggio is no different than most big companies, in many ways. Vehicle manufactures are well noted for willing selling products with known safety defects, let alone know defects of another kind. Look at very partial list, GM-faulty ignitions , Ford- faulty gas tanks, Toyota-faulty ignitions systems, the list goes on and on.
All I'm saying is these big companies care about making money, don't ever think they care about you.
The Toyota faulty ignition system was a ruse brought on by unions. It was never substantiated. I've driven Toyotas since `75 and have never had any issues with them.
Over 30 years I have owned 6 used Guzzis, never a new 1. As such I don't expect them to be perfect. The newest 1 I own is a `04 750 Breva and I don't plan on owning a newer 1 just because they have become too heavy, complicated for me. Now if Guzzi ever came out with a maxi-scooter, maybe. :smiley: For now it's Piaggio MP3s, which I find pretty much bulletproof. :thumb:
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What other company in recent history sent out bikes it knew would eat top end, not on some but on all of them?
Sorry but this whole thing about other riders complaining about different brands doesn't hold water. They are selling exponentially more bikes and the percentages of failures are much lower.
Imagine ST1300s eating their top ends, every one of them in several model years. Not buying it. Even the V engines if the early 80s didn't have 100% failure rates nor was it known and then sold otherwise and that was decades ago.
It isn't quirky, its shameful. Ease of maintenance is meaningless if you're doing it all the time.
The OP is basically stuck with a lemon. Every prior to mid 2012 8V with a flat tappet engine is a lemon. Buy an older model? What a great way to recommend a brand.
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If you really think MG is crap. And your points are all well made, buy a New Royal Enfield and have the entire rear end lock up at speed as is the current state of affairs. Let's face it. If you want a appliance like bike, look east to Japan. Not Europe. Triumph is the exception. Even Ducati as good as it is not a bike for the non- mechanic. Valve adjustments??? $1200!!
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Winter has set in early this year :rolleyes:
Look fellas , every company has problems when new advanced technology is introduced . HD had trouble with the early EVO engines , then again with the TC motors . BMW had issues with the early oilheads being incredibly sensitive to oil levels and then there is the famous bevel box fiasco . Honda had several transmission failures with the introduction of the 1800 GW's . Heck , going back to the 1960's , Honda had major problems with the lack of real cam bearings , and let's not forget how many Suzuki models had complete failure of their charging systems due to stators melting . Yeah , MG has some things to deal with , don't give up yet , it's a brave new world .
Dusty
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Sad thing is I can fully understand the OP's frustration.
The fact that the flat tappet top end failed in service, while inconvenient and unfortunate, I can sort of forgive because no matter how rigorous testing is under 'Laboratory' conditions once out in the real world, being ridden by different people in different conditions problems can rear their ugly heads.
Although tappet failure is easily detected by visual inspection of the tappet faces it often won't show up in terms of noise or really rapid valve clearance increase until the issue is in its final death throes. I have only comparatively recently discovered exactly how widespread the problem is, not by having had a lot of instantly recognisable failures in but because any and every flat tappet bike that comes into my workshop I strongly suggest that I be allowed to pull the LH cambox. Most customers are happy for me to do this when I explain the situation and since I have been doing this I haven't had a single bike through that wasn't showing some sign of damage. Even really low mileage ones like the one I aranged for my mate Dave which had only 13,000km on and ran perfectly was showing wear but I'd checked it's clearances only a few months ago when I was tuning it after a re-map and they were spot on.
It may be that as the cams and tappets fail the gaps open up, but only by a small amount, between services. Only when all the DLC has abraded away will the sudden increases in clearance become apparent as the foot of the tappet and nose of the cam disintegrate. This leads to the problem not being detected until the bitter end by which time other, more serious damage, may be occurring. Certainly in five years I never picked it up and believe me, with all of the horror stories being bandied about I was scrutinising things very closely. Once major damage has occurred other, visible, evidence will be present that can be identified without removing the camboxes and inspecting cams and tappets but early failure does require a strip and inspect.
Getting back to the original point though what does make my blood boil is the fact that it must of been known that the problem was unsolveable very early in the piece and by mid 2010 they were already fitting shims under the inlet valve springs and marking the heads to make them identifiable as such. That would seem to indicate to me that they had already designed the *Fix*, (Who knows?! They may of had it ready to roll even before the first tappet change to the DLC ones from the original cast iron ones and decided to try DLC because it was cheaper!) but they continued selling flawed machines for a further two years and I'm sorry, I really can't see any way that they can't of known about it. I have my ideas about why they chose to do that but they are just ideas, I really don't know.
The second thing that really pisses me off is that they make owners and the people who are trying to fix things jump through hoops backwards with a burning branch stuck up their blurter to get their belated and grudgingly offered *Upgrade* kits supplied and if you can't dot every I and cross every T then you get thrown to the lions. Unconscionable!
The 1200 Nuovo Hi-Cam is a wonderful motor. It's performance and character are fantastic and like all Guzzi motors since time immemorial despite their *Low* power output they still punch well above their weight and are a joy to ride, operate and even work on. It is that, and the fact that I think they have been packaged very well in the machines that have been offered with the engine in, that keeps me loyal to the brand and still a cheer-leader for the engine itself. A correctly tuned and mapped 1200 is a truly outstanding motorbike and I for one will part from mine when it is pried from my 'Cold, dead fingers'. That doesn't mean that anybody else should, or will, feel the same way.
I feel that the parent company has behaved very, very shabbily. The denials and dodging of responsibility makes my skin crawl. I can perfectly understand people, even those loyal to the brand, simply walking away in disgust.
Perhaps that's just the way things are nowadays though? I have no idea, I'm aware I'm a product of a different age. Sad to see the brand I've stuck with for most of my life being tortured to death by a bunch of bean counters and corporate suits.
Pete
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The best dealers , and long time owners throwing in the towel. :embarrassed: :undecided: :clock:
This is true. Mostly at fault of the manufacturer and their demands of the dealer. Ive seen my local Triumph dealer do it. They are forced to get so in bed with them and dependently invested they end up being "yes men" to the company and forgetting past ethics. Bad business practices from the top. I bought my 6th Triumph last March. A used Rocket with 89 miles on the clock. 12hrs later the rear end seizes and almost kills me. Long story short instead of making things right they tell me to bugger off . They send guys to observe the bike and made a conclusion theyre not liable without even touching the bike. Then afew months later I get a letter from a law firm saying if I slander the brand I can possibly face " legal consequences" . Not shitting you. My insurance in process of sueing them as we speak. And all it would of took was a rebate on a new purchase and I would of been happy. Instead I wrote off Triumph and bought a new Honda.
Pretty bold of Piaggio to pull that crap.. To this day Guzzi still hasn't got a sure foothold in North America. Customer support is VERY prudent. If the bike is faulty it's financially smarter to just fix it than anything. Especially if it's legitimate. It's not like ge was doing anything to possibly void the warranty , right?
All these reasons Im reading in this thread is why I go by word of mouth and from people I know when it comes to buying a new or used bike and using a particular dealer. And I have lost trust in dealers. I had a dealer give me a good trade offer on my one bike and the suddenly got shady. They tell me they want to 'inspect the bike" . So I do. They come back 2 hours later and tell me I have a crankcase leak and a bad fork seal and itll be 700$ to fix so they'd have to deduct that from the trade value. The crankcase seal was replaced 400 miles ago . I take the bike home and discover those "upstanding guys" loosened my oil filter and rode it a few miles getting it to leak . Sadly this was my local Guzzi dealer changing they're ethics. Pro Italia in LA of all places..
I guess the moral to my rant is to do your research and if they try to get shady call them out on it. Find a good source of a dealer or shop and know enough about them.
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I don't think expecting a Guzzi engine to go more than 16K with out eating its top end and trashing the mains is a feeling of entitlement. I agree with you on most of the issues the bikes have had in the past but this one is a little to far over the line to give em a pass on. I opened up my bike out of concern for what I was hearing from other owners and found that I was just in time to catch the tappet failure before it was to late for the lower end too. I am not going to swear off the brand and plan on riding the one I have now but if did replace it I would be real careful if it was going to be another NEW Guzzi.
This very issue is why I don't own a Stelvio or Griso.... I would have bought at least one of them several times over by now... but the uncertainty swirling around the roller kits, availability, A,B,C and of course finding a dealer I trust within a day's drive to do the work has torpedoed my hopes.
Some will say it's not a big deal, but 99% or vehicle owners (of any type) are not comfortable with rebuilding their vehicle engine themselves after just 10-20k miles
the fact that Guzzi continued to sell the bikes, once it was a known issue... then the rarity of the kits and dearth of dealer support is too big of a triple whammy for me to bike.
I buy what I want, the money is not an issue.. I would certainly have a Teni Griso or a Stelvio by now if this issue didn't exist. The prospect of buying a bike and then dropping it off for a month+ for a major repair at a dealer that has only carried Guzzi for a year... that is a tough pill to swallow.
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Well... for first time in over forty years it would most likely not be a Guzzi. A sad state of affairs indeed.
Let me guess. You live in the Houston metro ?
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This very issue is why I don't own a Stelvio or Griso.... I would have bought at least one of them several times over by now... but the uncertainty swirling around the roller kits, availability, A,B,C and of course finding a dealer I trust within a day's drive to do the work has torpedoed my hopes.
Some will say it's not a big deal, but 99% or vehicle owners (of any type) are not comfortable with rebuilding their vehicle engine themselves after just 10-20k miles
the fact that Guzzi continued to sell the bikes, once it was a known issue... then the rarity of the kits and dearth of dealer support is too big of a triple whammy for me to bike.
I buy what I want, the money is not an issue.. I would certainly have a Teni Griso or a Stelvio by now if this issue didn't exist. The prospect of buying a bike and then dropping it off for a month+ for a major repair at a dealer that has only carried Guzzi for a year... that is a tough pill to swallow.
Why would it be an issue for you? The problem was fixed on new bikes years ago. You can go buy a new Griso, Stelvio off the floor with no worry what so ever about engine life. I'll take you at your on your dealer situation, but understand the issue only applies to the first three years or so of 8v production.
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Why would it be an issue for you? The problem was fixed on new bikes years ago. You can go buy a new Griso, Stelvio off the floor with no worry what so ever about engine life. I'll take you at your on your dealer situation, but understand the issue only applies to the first three years or so of 8v production.
I didn't say I wanted a new one... Besides, they haven't fixed the farcockteh turn signals and fog lights, what would lead you to think other issues are ironed out?
the last sentence in your post is the most telling... "3 years or so" that's the issue. It's not even entirely clear to anyone who doesn't have dealer info at their disposal (or has opened up a dozen of these things) which models are affected.. seems to me from what I can glean that AT LEAST '09-'12 bikes are in the shit group... but I don't think it's every bike from every year? I don't feel disassembling a motorcycle engine from model year '12 or '13 with 5k miles on it to 'see' if it is an affected model is a very reassuring course of action.
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If you want a appliance like bike, look east to Japan. Not Europe. Triumph is the exception. Even Ducati as good as it is not a bike for the non- mechanic. Valve adjustments??? $1200!!
Point of order. Our Ducati Monster valve adjustment was only < $600, meaning it was NO WHERE NEAR $1200.
AND FWIW, I realize it's been only four years of a couple thousand miles per year, but it has been turn key appliance reliable.
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It's not even entirely clear to anyone who doesn't have dealer info at their disposal (or has opened up a dozen of these things) which models are affected.. seems to me from what I can glean that AT LEAST '09-'12 bikes are in the shit group... but I don't think it's every bike from every year? I don't feel disassembling a motorcycle engine from model year '12 or '13 with 5k miles on it to 'see' if it is an affected model is a very reassuring course of action.
No, this isn't the case.
The problem affects all flat tappet 8V models. That is all 1200-8V engines built before about the middle of 2012. Checking to see if models at the cusp of the changeover are roller or flat is as easy as pulling off a rocker cover. Next time I'm at my desktop I'll once again post up some pics showing the easily identified difference between the roller and flat tappet camboxes so you can see for yourself. Identifying *Which engines* is easier. Identifying *Which kit* is required is similarly easy. I can do a photo tutorial on that too if required? This isn't some sort of weird *SECRET only available to 'Special' people who are required to don a pink fur Onesie and sacrifice kittens to the Gods of Antiquity! It's no more *Secret* than knowing how to tell the difference between a small, mid or big valve Tonti head!
As I've said before I'd buy another flat tappet bike in a heartbeat! But the first thing I'd do is rollerise it and as you can see from my photo-essay on that its not terrifically difficult. If you can replace the clutch on a Loop or Tonti it's well within your grasp to rollerise an 8V.
And before someone shouts at me, NO, you shouldn't need to but that's just the way it is and there is no point in whinging about it.
Pete
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I think BBQ just wants to bitch. That's my opinion, I might be wrong.
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you could always get a Vstrom or something that you just ride and not wrench.
Been thinking about doing just that.
Dean
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you could always get a Vstrom or something that you just ride and not wrench.
"Been thinking about doing just that."
"Dean"
There's a lot to be said about those V Stroms Dean, might be a good choice.
That said, I just bought a '98 EV, . . . . . . . . . . .I'm so confused. :evil:
Tom
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I think BBQ just wants to bitch. That's my opinion, I might be wrong.
not particularly... but it's disingenuous for people like Pete who are MASTER MECHANICS poo-poo anyone for not buying a bike that requires a major engine overhaul after 10k miles... Sure, its "just as easy as changing a clutch on a loop" but in the real world, 99.5% or people are unable or unwilling to do such maintenance on a like-new vehicle. Sure it's 'easy' if you have a full shop, bike lifts, special tools, and the parts pipeline afforded to a dealer or factory authorised service tech.
To me it would be 'easy' to prep & cook a plated 4-course dinner for 1500 people in two days, heck I could do it myself with no help... But that doesn't mean anyone would be a fool or a complainer to not be able to pull it off himself in their home kitchen without wholesale food purchasing power, commercial equipment, kitchen space, and hot-holding equipment!
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not particularly... but it's disingenuous for people like Pete who are MASTER MECHANICS poo-poo anyone for not buying a bike that requires a major engine overhaul after 10k miles... Sure, its "just as easy as changing a clutch on a loop" but in the real world, 99.5% or people are unable or unwilling to do such maintenance on a like-new vehicle. Sure it's 'easy' if you have a full shop, bike lifts, special tools, and the parts pipeline afforded to a dealer or factory authorised service tech.
To me it would be 'easy' to prep & cook a plated 4-course dinner for 1500 people in two days, heck I could do it myself with no help... But that doesn't mean anyone would be a fool or a complainer to not be able to pull it off himself in their home kitchen without wholesale food purchasing power, commercial equipment, kitchen space, and hot-holding equipment!
My intention was not to be disingenuous, neither do I feel that I was. Wayne has none of the items listed in bold above and he doesn't seem to have any problems. Dave, (Lucian.) I think did his conversion himself, not sure, as have several others here.
As for having access to some sort of 'Hot-line to God'? You jest! :grin: :grin: :grin: just yesterday I got approval through for the upgrade to the bike I just brokered for my mate Dave. Checking the importer's parts site I was amazed to find they actually had another 'C' kit in stock. Usually between approval and processing there is a couple of days but I WANTED that kit so I was straight on the blower. Five minutes of toadying and being abject and an email drops into my inbox saying it's been allocated to me and will be despatched on Monday! Another quick check of the parts site shows that the bloody 'C' kits are back 'On order' :violent1: No 'Special Treatment' for us any more than any other mug punter.
Good news is though that the bloke who's coming down from up near Lismore on Wednesday will be able to Drag his bike away again in a couple of days rather than waiting for a munf or more for the Gnomes of Noale to pull their heads out of their collective arses and despatch/manufacture another bunch of kits! Very occasionally the golden eagle shits and you're standing underneath it! :grin: No missed summer riding for him!
Pete
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Sad thing is I can fully understand the OP's frustration.
The fact that the flat tappet top end failed in service, while inconvenient and unfortunate, I can sort of forgive because no matter how rigorous testing is under 'Laboratory' conditions once out in the real world, being ridden by different people in different conditions problems can rear their ugly heads.
Although tappet failure is easily detected by visual inspection of the tappet faces it often won't show up in terms of noise or really rapid valve clearance increase until the issue is in its final death throes. I have only comparatively recently discovered exactly how widespread the problem is, not by having had a lot of instantly recognisable failures in but because any and every flat tappet bike that comes into my workshop I strongly suggest that I be allowed to pull the LH cambox. Most customers are happy for me to do this when I explain the situation and since I have been doing this I haven't had a single bike through that wasn't showing some sign of damage. Even really low mileage ones like the one I aranged for my mate Dave which had only 13,000km on and ran perfectly was showing wear but I'd checked it's clearances only a few months ago when I was tuning it after a re-map and they were spot on.
It may be that as the cams and tappets fail the gaps open up, but only by a small amount, between services. Only when all the DLC has abraded away will the sudden increases in clearance become apparent as the foot of the tappet and nose of the cam disintegrate. This leads to the problem not being detected until the bitter end by which time other, more serious damage, may be occurring. Certainly in five years I never picked it up and believe me, with all of the horror stories being bandied about I was scrutinising things very closely. Once major damage has occurred other, visible, evidence will be present that can be identified without removing the camboxes and inspecting cams and tappets but early failure does require a strip and inspect.
Getting back to the original point though what does make my blood boil is the fact that it must of been known that the problem was unsolveable very early in the piece and by mid 2010 they were already fitting shims under the inlet valve springs and marking the heads to make them identifiable as such. That would seem to indicate to me that they had already designed the *Fix*, (Who knows?! They may of had it ready to roll even before the first tappet change to the DLC ones from the original cast iron ones and decided to try DLC because it was cheaper!) but they continued selling flawed machines for a further two years and I'm sorry, I really can't see any way that they can't of known about it. I have my ideas about why they chose to do that but they are just ideas, I really don't know.
The second thing that really pisses me off is that they make owners and the people who are trying to fix things jump through hoops backwards with a burning branch stuck up their blurter to get their belated and grudgingly offered *Upgrade* kits supplied and if you can't dot every I and cross every T then you get thrown to the lions. Unconscionable!
The 1200 Nuovo Hi-Cam is a wonderful motor. It's performance and character are fantastic and like all Guzzi motors since time immemorial despite their *Low* power output they still punch well above their weight and are a joy to ride, operate and even work on. It is that, and the fact that I think they have been packaged very well in the machines that have been offered with the engine in, that keeps me loyal to the brand and still a cheer-leader for the engine itself. A correctly tuned and mapped 1200 is a truly outstanding motorbike and I for one will part from mine when it is pried from my 'Cold, dead fingers'. That doesn't mean that anybody else should, or will, feel the same way.
I feel that the parent company has behaved very, very shabbily. The denials and dodging of responsibility makes my skin crawl. I can perfectly understand people, even those loyal to the brand, simply walking away in disgust.
Perhaps that's just the way things are nowadays though? I have no idea, I'm aware I'm a product of a different age. Sad to see the brand I've stuck with for most of my life being tortured to death by a bunch of bean counters and corporate suits.
Pete
Pete, if everyone had access to someone like you where they could take their bikes, no one would care about much if this.
But the plain facts are that it isn't so nor will it be.
MG never opened up a single engine to see how it faired after even basic testing? You bet they did and they said screw the customer, by the time most figure it out they'll have to pay.
Some will pay. Others will suffer and then move on and that is where the damage takes place. Few of them will recommend a MG product. The reputation of the brand goes down the crapper and rightfully so.
I hear the people that say this or that brand has had problems in the past. I get it but MG has been around as long as any and much longer than most so that doesn't hold water.
The flat tappet 8v bikes are all lemons because unless you did the upgrade or you bet your hard earned money on the person that did, confidence lasts as long as it takes to sell the thing and move on. We can kick those who leave the brand straight in the rear end but who gets damaged? Everyone else with a MG.
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a burning branch stuck up their blurter
:bow: You have a way with words, Pete.. :smiley:
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My intention was not to be disingenuous, neither do I feel that I was. Wayne has none of the items listed in bold above and he doesn't seem to have any problems. Dave, (Lucian.) I think did his conversion himself, not sure, as have several others here.
I have some Craftsmen tools, and a big C clamp that I modified to use as a valve spring compressor.
I just finished the second side today. It is taking me a lot of time as I'm recovering from spine surgery and have some trouble looking down at the motor. But it is a one weekend job if you are able. About the same amount of time I used to spend doing a valve adjustment on my Honda V65. That is the 'big' kit 'C'. If you can get by with a smaller kit, it is a no brainer.
Yes, it sucks and I would rather not be doing it. Yes, I am grateful to Piaggio for providing the parts on their nickel for a bike with 50,000 miles, and years out of warranty. Honda did not do that for me when their cams failed.
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I don't think expecting a Guzzi engine to go more than 16K with out eating its top end and trashing the mains is a feeling of entitlement.
Yeah well I purchased a new Toyota back in '84, the most expensive model Toyota made at the time, the Supra. It ate it's top in at 33,000 miles with full dealer service and sucked a valve while my wife was driving at 112,000 miles. The car ended being a real loss.
My Alfa Romeo Spider and Fiat X1/9 had more miles when I sold them.
I don't trust any manufacturer I just know if I like the product I'll be less upset when it finally does fail.
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On the face of it, MotoG5 is telling people to not buy any Piaggio bike, including Piaggio scooters, Vespa scooters, Aprilia motorcycles, and Moto Guzzi motorcycles, because he had a bad experience with a specific bike.
Meanwhile, there are lots of happy Piaggio scooter, Vespa scooter, Aprilia and Moto Guzzi owners.
So what I'd like to know is whether MotoG5 is effectively telling me that I should abandon my imminent purchase of a V7 II, and if so, why.
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So what I'd like to know is whether MotoG5 is effectively telling me that I should abandon my imminent purchase of a V7 II, and if so, why.
he told you "why".
now, you have to decide which random strangers on the internet you will use to guide your impending decision.
I say you search the V7 II threads here to help you with your decision, since MotoG5's post has nothing to do with V7s of any kind.
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... MotoG5's post has nothing to do with V7s of any kind.
I think that's my point. His post also has nothing to do with Piaggio scooters, Vespa scooters, Aprilia motorcycles, nor Moto Guzzi motorcycles, or at least V7 IIs, unless he wants to take a swing at that bike too.
This appears to be a thread about turning a bad experience with a specific bike into an indictment of Piaggio generally and all of its brands and bikes.
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<Sigh>
Dusty
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I think that's my point. His post also has nothing to do with Piaggio scooters, Vespa scooters, Aprilua motorcycles, nor Moto Guzzi motorcycles, or at least V7 IIs, unless he wants to take a swing at them too.
This appears to be a thread about turning a bad experience with a specific bike into an indictment of Piaggio generally and all of its brands and bikes.
You can read anything into my post you want to dude. What I posted is what happened to me with my bike. I personally inspected it and repaired it and experienced Piaggio's process for dealing with it. I was not satisfied. The story is about the 1200cc 8V engine and NOTHING else. My wife rides an 09' Piaggio MP3 and has since new with no issues. You don't see any mention of it because I don't have any issues to tell you about. You can interpret this information any way you see fit but it did happen. I bought that bike an rode the crap out of it with no regrets until this jumped up and bit me in the butt and I feel Piaggio let me down on dealing with it in good faith. All I am saying is on my next purchase of a big block newer design Guzzi I will lay back and see how the wind blows before investing 15K+ of my hard earned money and shop time.
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Rob? Are you being deliberately obtuse? This whole thread is not about any particular bike model but the example of how badly people have been treated in the case of the early 8V tappet fiasco is being used by the OP to question whether it is wise to buy any new product from this manufacturer.
The debate has opened up all sorts of responses as it would be bound to do and it is up to you to read and assess whether you are willing to take the risk of purchasing the product or if you think you would be better advised to look elsewhere.
If you want MY opinion? If you like what the V7-II has to offer? Buy one! The engine is essentially the same unit that has been in production since God was a boy and has had all the bugs ironed out. If there is one thing that the boys at Noale do spectacularly its design and build gearboxes, the final drive is pretty bulletproof as is the clutch. The only thing that lets them down is the 'Poverty Pack' suspension.
There are a couple of dealers who contribute here who have sold far more of them than me though. They'd be a better source of *Info* on potential problems but I haven't heard of anything significant!
Pete
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You can read anything into my post you want to dude. What I posted is what happened to me with my bike. I personally inspected it and repaired it and experienced Piaggio's process for dealing with it. I was not satisfied. The story is about the 1200cc 8V engine and NOTHING else. My wife rides an 09' Piaggio MP3 and has since new with no issues. You don't see any mention of it because I don't have any issues to tell you about. You can interpret this information any way you see fit but it did happen. I bought that bike an rode the crap out of it with no regrets until this jumped up and bit me in the butt and I feel Piaggio let me down on dealing with it in good faith. All I am saying is on my next purchase of a big block newer design Guzzi I will lay back and see how the wind blows before investing 15K+ of my hard earned money and shop time.
In other words, I understood the title of your thread - State of Guzzi - and your post, perfectly.
By the way, my name is not "dude".
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Where I live there are three dealership within an hour (my dealer is fifteen minutes away) of driving. Go an extra thirty minutes and it is up to five, two hours add two more for a total of seven. All are doing just fine. With two specialty shops catering to MG and Italian bikes. V7 Racers sell with some speed. V7 Standards a bit slower. The big bikes linger. There is always a deal to be had. I doubt any ever go a MSRP. And all offer test rides. So, in big metro areas MG has a toe hold. The V7 Racer sells on looks. The young buyers don't know a Heron head from a Hemi head. As for HP they don't care. It just looks cool. They don't race and never will. They don't tour and never will. They like old school cool. The new Roamer will do just fine with these guys. I talk to them all of the time in my job. Vespa does well too.
Where do you live with that many close MG dealers?
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In other words, I understood the title of your thread - State of Guzzi - and your post, perfectly.
By the way, my name is not "dude".
Fair enough rob-mg. One question if I may. How familiar are you with Moto Guzzi and its history?
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In other words, I understood the title of your thread - State of Guzzi - and your post, perfectly.
By the way, my name is not "dude".
OK , how about dOOd ? :grin: Fellas , a thicker skin and a few deep breaths are needed here .
Dusty
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I'm pretty sure my next bike purchase will be a Guzzi. It will take a lot more than one guy complaining about a known problem to push me in the direction of buying a V-Strom. The small blocks appear to be as bullet proof as it gets, though I do wonder whether it makes sense to wait a year on the 850 to see how they hold up (and whether they find their way into a different chassis).
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OK , how about dOOd ? :grin: Fellas , a thicker skin and a few deep breaths are needed here .
Dusty
Moto5G's response was what's called classy. Don't know why you decided to run interference, especially after he had already posted. And no, dOOd is not OK
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Moto5G's response was what's called classy. Don't know why you decided to run interference.
Not taking sides , just a gentle reminder that this is just the internet , and not to take anything too seriously . Maybe we need to take a few deep breaths and let everyone cool down a bit .
Dusty
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Well I guess there is always two ends of a shaft , but personally I could not be happier with my guzzi's or the whole ownership experience. There is no perfect motorized anything period, it is always a game of compromises. I enjoy being able to do all the routine services myself and guzzi's, even the new ones allow me to do that. The roller conversion was something I wished I hadn't had to do ,but in hindsight I am glad I was able to do it myself, thanks to Pete and his tutorial. Anyone with a little patience and a few simple tools can do the same, especially with all the support available from the great people here. I can't see this as a big enough deal to give up on such a unique and fantastic motorcycle. I truly feel fortunate to have discovered the joy that moto guzzi's and all of you here on W.G. have brought to the table. I have owned a lot of different brands over the years as most all of you have , but for me it is the first time that the motorcycle in my garage represents something infinitely more than a ride. Thanks to all here, for all the added benefit of owning a M.G. Dave
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What Dusty said... Chill out dude.
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Cam and I wandered around a mega-dealer today (all JAPanInc. brands, plus Victory, Triumph, Royal Enfield, Ural, plus a bunch of ATV/watercraft/snowmobiles, Strykers, and Spyders).
Before we walked out I asked him, any bike in the showroom, what do you want... He pointed to a burnt orange Ural!
I wasn't surprised. As we wandered we talked about the function of the other brands, we admired USD forks, dual disc binders, lightweight mag wheels... But what they were attached to looked like insects and not bikes.
There were some nice Triumph Bonnie's.... And there were some crude but beautiful URALs and Enfields.
Now I think MG is much closer to Triumph than the other two. But the Triumphs did have little things like adjustable levers and, the Thruxton had adjustable forks. Things like that do make me take notice.
Still, MG (and the other brands we admired) all had one thing in common, they looked the part too. They were bikes you'd want to look at as you walked away. That wasn't true with almost anything else in the showroom.
Now I DO think Guzzi has had some pretty big fails in my short tenure as their customer:
1. Hydro Cali valve train.
2. Breva/Norge dashes
3. 8V CARC valve trains.
It's enough to make me second guess CARCs and maybe even the Cali (even though they don't seem to be effected by anything more than weak crossover pipes). But once trust is lost...
... The V7 seemed worth the risk, and having a proven valve train and simpler electronics, also seemed much less the risk.
As it's turned out so far, it's been brilliant and, though not as strong a performer on paper/specs, has been not only my favorite Guzzi but one of my favorite bikes of all time.
Forza Guzzi, I hope they weather this and continue to improve.
I actually would love to add a Cali to the fleet again.. Or maybe a second smallblock.
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What Dusty said... Chill out dude.
Well , it was not specifically directed at Rob , but yes , some chilling out is in order .
Dusty
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The small blocks appear to be as bullet proof as it gets, though I do wonder whether it makes sense to wait a year on the 850 to see how they hold up (and whether they find their way into a different chassis).
If you're talking about waiting a year to see if the 850cc goes into the V7, I wouldn't wait.
Moto Guzzi has just introduced changes to the V7 that suggest that there won't be big changes next year, and in any event the power difference between the V7 engine and the V9 engine is marginal. And there are graduated licensing schemes, e.g. in the U.K., to consider.
Personally, I held off buying a V7 because I knew that ABS, which I wanted, including for resale reasons, was imminent, and I see the additional changes as a bonus.
I'll be surprised if there are significant differences in the V7 over the next couple of years. With one exception. Moto Guzzi might introduce tubeless spoked wheels.
There were rumors that the new engine was going into the V7, but in retrospect it isn't surprising that it's going into a new bike.
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Rob, the V7 motor won't make the next tier of EU emissions standards (EU 4 required by 2017).
And the new gearbox of the V7II appears to be an improvement that was meant to support an engine change/upgrade.
And the 850 is EU 4 compliant.
You do the math.
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Rob, the V7 motor won't make the next tier of EU emissions standards (EU 4 required by 2017).
And the new gearbox of the V7II appears to be an improvement that was meant to support an engine change/upgrade.
And the 850 is EU 4 compliant.
You do the math.
I've seen that argument and maybe it will prove to be correct. On the other hand, there were lots of rumors that what turns out to be the V9 engine would be in the V7 this year, and if that engine is going into the V7, when? Next year, 2018?
From the point of view of buying the bike in the US or Canada, the V7 II addresses issues that made me pass on it three years running. I'm very comfortable buying it now. I'd be happier if tubeless tires, with or without spokes, came stock on the Special, but that's my only issue. I'll complete the purchase of a red with white stripes Special on Monday.
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Just wondering, Kev, how do you know the 750 motor won't be able to be made to meet EU 4 ?
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Just wondering, Kev, how do you know the 750 motor won't be able to be made to meet EU 4 ?
Mostly because I can't remember when Dogwalker was ever wrong.
But if I were guessing I'd say that 5 hp want the only reason they changed the heads for the V9 (which is EU 4 compliant).
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I've seen that argument and maybe it will prove to be correct. On the other hand, there were lots of rumors that what turns out to be the V9 engine would be in the V7 this year, and if that engine is going into the V7, when? Next year, 2018?
From the point of view of buying the bike in the US or Canada, the V7 II addresses issues that made me pass on it three years running. I'm very comfortable buying it now. I'd be happier if tubeless tires, with or without spokes, came stock on the Special, but that's my only issue. I'll complete the purchase of a red with white stripes Special on Monday.
I'm obviously not telling you not to buy it.
I rode mine today... My little bro bought a second one a week ago, and Cam might have been on his vintage V7 Sport today but all indications are he loves his V7 Special...
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I'm obviously not telling you not to buy it.
I rode mine today... My little bro bought a second one a week ago, and Cam might have been on his vintage V7 Sport today but all indications are he loves his V7 Special...
I considered two other bikes before settling on the V7 II Special. Yes, I know that the three are very different:
Triumph Street Triple R
Ducati Scrambler
I was also interested in the new Triumph Bonneville line, until I read enough to conclude that these bikes, including the Street Twin, will be at least as heavy as, and provide more power than, the current line, neither of which interests me.
If I had not gone with the V7 II, I would have gone with the Street Triple, which I think is a wonderful bike, including, for me, ergonomically. The Ducati Scrambler is just not a bike that appeals to me both in terms of ergonomics and quality of finish.
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Just a data point but my Honda XR650L ate its' self (kinked oil feed line) at 1600 miles and Honda nor the dealer took responsibility. Had to have it fixed on my own dime (warranty time frame was past). Talked to a fellow a couple months ago, same bike, same dealer, motor cooked its' self at 600 miles. On ThumperTalk.com there have been several others with the same problem. The same bike goes through ECU's like candy through a kid, other electrical bits are also supplied by low bid crappers. Yet this bike has a reputation as being anvil reliable. Ha! Maybe, like the Guzzi, they are once sorted.
Now Piaggio comes along, DOES cover my problem (sans labor) after the warranty has expired. In my book they are less evil than Honda. Now it did not prevent me from getting a CB1100 (but I did spring for an extended warranty). When I was looking at bikes to get back into motorcycling I heard stories about several other Japanese manufactures not honoring their warranties (hearsay, but you know forums - quick to have the complainers post up horror stories).
I have one buddy that assumes anything posted on a forum is junk and refuses to even consider them at any point as a source of information. There are times I tend to agree with him! But if you spend any time on a forum one tends to know who to listen to, who to discount; which problems are real problems and which ones are statistical noise. The the squelch on a radio, you need to turn up the noise filter high enough so that you only pay attention to good stuff. It's an acquired skill.
To quote a buddy who stole it from someone else; when it comes to internet forums; "Don't be quick to take offense, don't be quick to give offense".
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The Ducati Scrambler is just not a bike that appeals to me both in terms of ergonomics and quality of finish.
I can't argue ergos.
But quality of finish?
As a very happy owner of a V7, an owner of a Ducati 696, and someone who has spent time checking out the Scrambler, I'm not sure I'm seeing what you're seeing.
Now there are differences between the Monster and the Scrambler, but the overall build quality seem very similar. And the components seem every bit as stout or better than those in the V7.
I still prefer the V7... Again, don't get me wrong.
But I would be even happier if components were more like the Duc.
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I also prefer it when the assume components can go quack :huh:
Dusty
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I can't argue ergos.
But quality of finish?
I wanted to like the Ducati Scrambler, but I was struck by truly sloppy welding, and my overall impression was that I was dealing with an oversize dinky toy, or Lego set with lots of potential add-ons. It didn't seem like a complete bike.
For me, the Triumph Street Triple and the Moto Guzzi V7 II are aesthetically in a different league.
Because of what I've seen of the Scrambler, I'm not at all convinced that Moto Guzzi's decision to go the kit route is a great idea, but I hope I'm proven wrong. In any event, the V7s are solid on their own.
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I also prefer it when the assume components can go quack :huh:
Dusty
You know it's past Shay's bedtime. He can't start proofreading till at least 5:30 am when I tell him to "shut up, lay back down in your crib and go back to sleep, the sun's not up yet!" (Or something like that). :wink:
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You know it's past Shay's bedtime. He can't start proofreading till at least 5:30 am when I tell him to "shut up, lay back down in your crib and go back to sleep, the sun's not up yet!" (Or something like that). :wink:
Figured it was past his bedtime , he usually catches stuff :laugh:
Dusty
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I wanted to like the Ducati Scrambler, but I was struck by truly sloppy welding, and my overall impression was that I was dealing with an oversize dinky toy, or Lego set with lots of potential add-ons. It didn't seem like a complete bike.
For me, the Triumph Street Triple and the Moto Guzzi V7 II are aesthetically in a different league.
Because of what I've seen of the Scrambler, I'm not at all convinced that Moto Guzzi's decision to go the kit route is a great idea, but I hope I'm proven wrong. In any event, the V7s are solid on their own.
To me the Street Triple and V7 couldn't be more different.
Maybe my opinion of the Scrambler gets colored by my impression of our 696. And for starters the 696 is "better" than either the Scrambler or V7 in the USD forks and dual disc brakes. It's also got an incredibly stout swingarm and gorgeous trellis frame.
Now I've already said multiple times I prefer the V7 so you understand my sincerity when I say I get the impression the Scrambler has some more robust components. Maybe it's just the swingarm.
The forks and wheels and brakes seem about equivalent.. Maybe bars and controls are similar. The V7 has an advantage in the fuel tank and arguably easier service (valves/shaft). But the Scrambler had significantly more power.
One thing I HATE about the V7 are the chincy plastic fenders. The front is fine, but the rear wobbles and shimmies under the weight of the taillight. It leaves you with an impression of weakness. The Duc has as much plastic, but better executed.
I'm pretty stoked the V9 has steel fenders and hope it will carry over to the V9 Stone/Special if/when they build it.
That plus the motor could be enough for me to add another to the fleet (I really hope I don't ever consider getting rid of the Stone).
Ymmv
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To me the Street Triple and V7 couldn't be more different.
If you read my first post on this, you'll find that I started by saying that the V7 II, Street Triple R and Ducati Scrambler are very different bikes. Nevertheless, they are the three that I was considering, after discounting the new Bonneville line as not meeting (regrettably) my interests.
The main issue for me was ergonomics, on which the Ducati came a distant last. You invited non-ergonomic comments, which I offered. My comments were about aesthetics and finish, yours are about components. Different issues.
All I can say is that, aesthetically, I'd take the Street Triple or the V7 any day of the week over the Scrambler, but obviously others disagree - Ducati is apparently selling a ton of these bikes.
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I did read your first post, but mea-culpa it was so long ago (measured in # of posts I've read tonight).
I'm not trying to give you a hard time, nor change your mind.
My intent was just to query the impressions of quality or lack thereof, especially as they pertain to the theme of this thread.
I've only owned 3 Guzzis and 1 Ducati, but that experience has left me with a more favorable impression of Ducati with regards to "quality". Even if that doesn't stop me from continuing to buy the Guzzi I prefer.
Ergonomics can be funny. If pressed I would have said my V7 and the Scrambler were about the same. Certainly closer than our Monster and V7.
But my comments about components were meant to speak to overal finish (which is largely perception of quality in my mind).
Aesthetics are funny. Because to me the Scrambler and V7 are more similar than not, while the Street Triple is the odd man out. That's part of what I meant by" couldn't be more different ".
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I did read your first post, but mea-culpa it was so long ago (measured in # of posts I've read tonight).
I'm not trying to give you a hard time, nor change your mind.
My intent was just to query the impressions of quality or lack thereof, especially as they pertain to the theme of this thread.
I've only owned 3 Guzzis and 1 Ducati, but that experience has left me with a more favorable impression of Ducati with regards to "quality". Even if that doesn't stop me from continuing to buy the Guzzi I prefer.
Ergonomics can be funny. If pressed I would have said my V7 and the Scrambler were about the same. Certainly closer than our Monster and V7.
But my comments about components were meant to speak to overal finish (which is largely perception of quality in my mind).
Aesthetics are funny. Because to me the Scrambler and V7 are more similar than not, while the Street Triple is the odd man out. That's part of what I meant by" couldn't be more different ".
Kev,
If you're 6', let me assure you that the ergonomics of the Street Triple and the V7 II are better than the Ducati Scrambler. Review after review has said, correctly, that it is a "tiny" bike. It reminds me of my old Honda CBR125 R, which in US terms would be similar to a Honda Grom (might even be the same engine).
I talked about finish, not quality. I do not consider the sloppy gas tank welds that I saw on the three Ducati Scramblers that I checked out a sign of good finish, and the paint struck me as not a whole lot better. To me, the bike has a rough, unfinished look, and in general doesn't know what it wants to be - enter all the versions and kits.
Between the three bikes, I think that the objective decision would have been the Street Triple, the actual decision was the V7, and the Ducati Scrambler quickly ceased to be a serious option. If you want a Ducati Scrambler, I suspect that there are going to be a fair number on the used market in a year's time. They are already showing up, I suspect from riders who aren't thrilled with the trigger happy throttle.
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Another comment on rollerization...I'm glad I did it now and before any irreparable damage was done. I'm NOT happy with the fact that Piaggio has not seen fit to cover the cost of the kit. They have not actually denied the claim, just ignored it. The Stelvio is still the bike I'd buy if I wanted a large, heavy, upright ride with hard bags and shaft drive. Nothing comes close for anywhere near the price.
Peter Y.