Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: professor on December 05, 2015, 07:20:49 PM
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I bought my first Moto Guzzi and it is a good motorcycle, different in many ways from the others I have owned, but none the less a sound buy. Looking at a new Griso today. So I get the MG message.
To know the brand better I bought most of the Guzzi books on line on Amazon. One in particular stood out; Moto Guzzi, The Complete Story By Greg Pullen. Printed in2013 in England. The last chapter held my interest for a second read. Very up to date.
Here is what I learned from Chapter 8, entitled The Future.
It puts some of the threads here in perspective.
1. MG as part of Piaggio is seen as a niche product. High quality, low production. A premium brand which they can charge more for.
2. Two other manufactures influence MG, Harley Davidson and Royal Enfield. Both retro styled brands with heritage like MG. Both very successful. HD in America. And RE producing 70,000 bikes a year, building a new factory to double production and a four to six month wait in the home market for a bike. And yes, the Big Four sell in India. RE also has a new 750 vertical twin due out and in R&D now. Interceptor?
3. Piaggio's target for MG is 20,000 bikes per year.
4. The target markets are Germany, France and Italy. American cruiser styling has sold well there. Even if HD have not. (Yamaha V-Max sold very strong in France. They like big bikes)
5. Can MG be built outside of Italy and do well. Some say no. Others say yes and point to BMW and Triumph. Both with third world factories. Would you buy a Ferrari from Thailand?
6. MG does not need to be cutting edge. HD is current, but not cutting edge. RE is not even current, just updated slowly.
7. MG needs a 500cc single and may get one. A horizontal engine.
8. MG knew the four valve motors had a camshaft wear problem, recalled bikes and fixed the problem.
9. Volume is relative to the market. The top UK dealer sells 14 to 15 California models each year. Bulk sales are V7. ( 14-15 bikes!! A good month at a BMW dealer)
10. Piaggio has a master plan for all of their products. MG is right on schedule with the New V9 Roamer. It fits into the "Urban 20 to 35 year old" market which is world wide, not just US Hipsters. If HP were the primary issue no 44 HP Sportsters would sell. They do. Style matters most to this demographic. (HP matters most to sport bike riders)
11. American styling is more important than the American market. Piaggio Design Center is in Pomona Calif. BMW choose American Roland Sands to design the Nine-T. It is a success every where in the world.
12. Piaggio is very healthy with MG, Vespa, Gilera, Aprilia, Derbi and Scarabeo brands.
13. Motorcycling is slowing (dying??) in developed countries. The surge is in developing countries. So, niche marketing Premium Brands makes good business sense in the west. There may not be new riders coming along quickly and in volume. HD's new bikes (500 and 750) are for foreign markets primarily.
The above is the opinion of the book's author and his analysis. You may not agree.
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Since point 8 is patently wrong it renders the rest of his opinions meaningless.
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Indeed, I wondered about that as I read it. Certainly did not match up with the material on this website. The text is adamant that the issue was resolved.
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Since point 8 is patently wrong it renders the rest of his opinions meaningless.
I agree with Pete here.
Is it possible that what I have heard all along about "Those who can do and those who can't write "
Is true?
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I do think MG is at the top of the "retro" bike in terms of quality product with reliability and good components stock. I can only hope they start innovating again now that they've built up their lineup of small block bikes. MG has shown some of the most innovative thinking in the history of motorcycles, they need to come out with a knockout punch. I maintain my desire to see a 90 degree V4 in a guzzi along the lines of Motus, only without the stupid price.
Piaggio is pandering to the market with MG and not looking forward, I almost wish they'd bugger off and allow the brand to innovate, but then Guzzi would just go bankrupt again.
Royal Enfield might be making 70,000 bikes a year, but they're not good bikes. If they sold them in the west for the prices they charge in India they might actually be worth buying and sell like crazy, but since they feel the need to double the price over here they just become bad jokes. They aren't worth that kind of money and any kind of used bike for the same price is going to be a better deal.
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Agree in regard to RE. Rode one the length of India. Many problems. I once had Bullet Walla ten years old change a cable and adjust the valves. Every village has one.
On the Four Valve issue, here is the author's source if it matters. Paul Harris owner of Corsa Italiana, Walton-on-Thames UKs largest MG dealer. Sells only MG. Quote from Harris;" The issue of the eight valve head is absolutely sorted. Everything was recalled and some even got new oil pumps and bigger oil cooler. It might have been component suppliers dropping standards: all I know is that we were told to do the work and we did it. I am not aware of any one having problems any more." Page 166.
So, all Pullen did was quote the UKs largest and most successful MG dealer. He sought creditability. But, still it does not square with this forum and the expertise here. Appears like in near any endeavor that involves money, the truth is always elusive. Resolved any interest I had in the prior to 2013 four valve head bikes.
I wonder if they were recalled in all markets?
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August 24, 2014 - (Press release edited by webBikeWorld) - The Motorcycle Industry Council reported that sales of street bikes, off-road bikes and scooters increased a significant 2.5% in the second quarter of 2014 from 1Q, with sales up 2.6% over the second quarter of 2013.
Dual-sport motorcycle sales were up an amazing 12% percent (384 units) from the second quarter of 2013, with off-road bikes up by nearly 21% (1,243 units) from the same period last year. Scooter sales were up by 208 (4.9%) compared to the second quarter of 2013.
Sales of street bikes were down by 1.5% from Q2 of 2013 but overall, the Q1 and Q2 2014 sales of street bikes were up by 1.7% (~3,000 units) from the first six months of 2013 as a comparison.
Meanwhile, the Piaggio Group reported slow scooter sales in North America, which affected their overall global sales goals. Combined Vespa, Aprilia and Moto Guzzi sales for the first 6 months of 2014 were reported at 278,500 units, a decrease of 20,000 units from the same period in 2013.
North American sales increased by 3.2% but scooter sales were down 2% during that period. However, Piaggio reported that they have 25.4% of the European market in scooters and 21.3% in motorcycles.
Piaggio also opened the first Chinese Vespa store in Beijing.
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The Pullen book was printed in 2013 so it was probably actually written in late 2011 or early 2012. As I recall, that's about when many of us were thinking that any flat tappet problems seen with 8 valve engines were likely the result of over cooling or owner abuse. There were only a very small number of known failures. I can see where the UK distributor could easily be in denial since that market probably sold only a fraction of the bikes sold in the USA and our total sales are laughably small. I'd guess that less than 2,000 8V bikes had been sold in the US (700 total annual sales, 50% small block...so 350 big block per year in 2008-2012). Add in the fact that many bikes do not rack up many miles per year and that the failures usually happen after some mileage, then the statement starts to make sense. Now, some four years later we see a different reality.
Peter Y.
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Points 3 and 6 are also rubbish.
3. Aprilia declared the 20,000 unit goal in the early 2000s. Piaggio doubled-down on this goal and in 2006 pushed production to 10,000. Then they colapsed. down to 2500-3000 for several years. Now they're back up to 7000 +/-, but 20,000 is a pipe dream, and not likely at the top of Piaggio's current list of priorities for Guzzi. In other words, old news when this book was written.
6. HD is full of high-tech. They have been leaders in fuel injection, throttle by wire, and anti-lock brakes. Also leaders in electrics, not to mention production techniques. This guy knows nothing of HD, other than what he's heard from detractors. HD wraps its high tech in vintage clothing. What's going on is under the skin.
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6. HD is full of high-tech. They have been leaders in fuel injection, throttle by wire, and anti-lock brakes. Also leaders in electrics, not to mention production techniques. This guy knows nothing of HD, other than what he's heard from detractors. HD wraps its high tech in vintage clothing. What's going on is under the skin.
HD is full of high-tech (A single pin engine)? :popcorn:
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The Pullen book was printed in 2013 so it was probably actually written in late 2011 or early 2012. As I recall, that's about when many of us were thinking that any flat tappet problems seen with 8 valve engines were likely the result of over cooling or owner abuse....
Peter Y.
understatement of the year!lol
~and a lot of "not so" funny one liners thrown at anyone daring to suggest otherwise.
An open mind can be a beautiful thing.
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I've always had an open mind. That's why I'm able to say I was wrong. I needed EVIDENCE though. Not just shrieking hysteria from people who were actively wanting the new motor to fail. It took me six/seven years to aquire the evidence. When I had it I admitted I was wrong. I have no problem with behaving like a grown-up.
Pete
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I really like MG even though this is my first one. So, I want them to make the 100 year mark in 2021.
My reading else opens my mind up to some questions.
Is the revamping of the 1400 line enough to boost sales worldwide? Piaggio put plenty of money into this project. They stepped up to the plate. The US Style Center drove the restyling of the new bike. And it is not foo far from the restyled Goldwing. So, certainly within the "modern" eye. But is it enough?
Would MG be able to sell a liquid cooled engine? Or would it be better to use the Triumph, HD, BMW model and make the liquid engine look air cooled? In Triumph's case even a carburetor. Given emissions do they have a choice?
MG is very fragile. Producing 10,00 and under units leaves no room for error. Offend the core base and you're dead. MG cannot be Kawasaki and do a " 300 HP Hyper-bike" or any thing near that. The money is not here. Kawasaki motorcycle is a very small part of Kawasaki Heavy Industries. But, should they stay married to the "V" engine? Twenty-five years ago De Tomaso tried to move away with Benelli and MG integration and failed to convince insiders in the company to move.
I would imagine the average of a MG big block buyer is about 47-50 years old maybe older. You can't build a company as HD found out on the Geritol generation. Eventually they die. Young buyers must come into the fold. What about them? Enhanced V7s? The Roamer seems to accomplish that at moderate development cost and stay within the envelope or MG paradigm. Pete made a dramatic point in regard to the "Traditional" bike in another thread. But does MG actually have a choice give the resources available from Piaggio? Resources from the market place? Can MG be radically different and still be accepted in the market place?
My dealer told me yesterday as I looked at the Griso; "they have to play it safe. BMW they are not." I noticed that in Europe KTM is the fastest growing brand with strong gains each year. Broad base of buyers. I bought a DUKE single and it is indeed a marvel. At 350 lbs and 70 HP it rips. How I'd love to see something like single that from MG. Derbi within Piaggio has some bike close so the ability is there.
In all due respect to age. It is very easy to be critical and nay say. Much more difficult to be proactive and creative and then turn that into financial success. Every new idea comes under the eye of the past. It either escapes to find it's own way or dies (killed).
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No, you can't build a global company that reaches the top tier in sales on the backs of the Geritol crowd, yet that is what HD did. It wasn't 20 something's paying 20 grand for a HD that got them to the top, it was an improvement in quality, reliability and in not screwing over customers.
It does not cost money to put a bolt on tight enough, it does not cost money to make sure two parts are aligned properly during assembly, it does not coast money to answer a phone and guess what,
It does not cost money to be honest and open with your customers.
The constant excuses as to why MG can't do this or that should go into a book, the one called what not to do when you make motorcycles.
MG behaves and operates the way it does because it sits on the apologies and excuses of those who think a bike for sale that is well sorted is being sold out of pride and not exasperation and frustration and the realization they did manage to put lipstick on a pig.
Who is going to say that not tightening fasteners, putting parts together haphazardly costs more than just doing it right?
It cost more to wire the starter correctly than the stupid way they do it?
Were it not for apologists and explainers of mediocrity MG would be selling more bikes and today it would be the brand to own instead of the one so many new buyers rush to get rid of within a year or two of ownership.
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HD is full of high-tech (A single pin engine)? :popcorn:
You confuse an iconic design choice with technology.
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So your thesis is; MG needs a quality management effort. A TQM? Much like any Japanese company or HD did.....finally.
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Whatever MG needs to right the ship.............th e front door is locked so they can't get in. :violent1: Move on, nothing new here.
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True sentiment. MG cannot survive outside Piaggio. For better or worse Piaggio is in charge. They are a profitable multi-national corporation with diverse products. Vespa is pure tradition, copied by near every body in the far east. Piaggio scooters new technology in scooters. Derbi and Gilera to the small bike market. Aprilia to the sport bikers and go fast. MG is the iconic brand that we have our love-hate relationship with. And they will do well in China too. As a corporation they will do as they please....and must do to make a profit. You know that when you buy a MG. If that pains you go else where. I've no problem with it. I know what my MG is and is NOT. As for HD they built the modern corporate structure on the aging Baby Boomers and their disposable income at that particular point in time. Once the mortgage market collapsed and the second and third mortgages went away from over inflated real estate...so did the buyers. Who also aged out of the market as well. You can't SUSTAIN, continue or project long term growth on an aging (dying) population. Witness the 500, 750 and Sportster markets. Or if you choose market attempts. Not 50,60 or 70 years old. The paradigm of yesterday, often fails today. HD is not guaranteed a second hundred years. They will earn it. As will MG. The question I pose is how to do that and on what platform. Honda is big enough to try to create a new market niche. MG, I fear must respond to what is there without loosing ground.
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Piaggio BV 350 (30hp)
(https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.motorcycle-usa.com%2FPhotoGallerys%2Fxlarge%2F2013PiaggioBV350Review1.jpg&f=1)
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Wow, there I s some major blow veating pushing fast out of completely unknowing sphincter s.
Let me know when you guys are running your own multi billion dollar companies, then perhaps you will have some credibility.
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Wow, there I s some major blow veating pushing fast out of completely unknowing sphincter s.
Let me know when you guys are running your own multi billion dollar companies, then perhaps you will have some credibility.
I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night :evil:
Let's not get too heated up here fellas , just the internet and all , besides , seriously doubt if the mothership is listening :rolleyes:
Dusty
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Cycle World called the BV 350 the most innovative engine design in the world powering a scooter. High praise indeed. Especially considering that BMW used Kymco for theirs.
I would add one last thing to think about. HD does not sell motorcycles, they sell a "lifestyle". Clothing, accessories and what ever else that identifies the buyer with that particular lifestyle. Harley riders all wear the "uniform" bought at the HD dealer. Ducati Scrambler is a lifestyle machine and brand (Ducati says so), complete with clothing. RE in it's stores in London sell the new RE lifestyle. Bullet Heads are into the RE lifestyle. Vespa stores sell the scooter lifestyle. The newest store is in China's capital city. Triumph clothing says this is my lifestyle. My vehicle identifies me with a certain way of living life of seeing life. HD is the extreme it says "All American Values." What ever that is? Different things to different people.
MG is getting actor Ian McGregor to say; "this is the machine for my life style." Young guys want to be Ian. MG does not want to sell motorcycles. It wants, via Piaggio, to sell a lifestyle. Lifestyle breeds brand loyalty and peer acceptance. Creates a community. Peer acceptance is very big with human beings. We want peers to say; "Man that is a cool bike, you are cool". Manufactures nurture this.
Now, I know in advance that I will hear; "I march to my own drummer. I don't need to be cool" Bet my pay check you are not 30 years old either and if you are you are not the majority. Motorcycles in the west are not transportation. They are jewelry, you wear them. It is not about cams, pistons, bearing and gears. OR horse power. It is about how you look on the machine. In Viet Nam and far east many times you ride because you need to go somewhere to survive. But, here in the west young men look so very cool on the Nine-T and older men think they do as well. At least until the helmet comes off.
So, MG must create a lifestyle if they can. Not loose the traditional buyer and move forward with new bikes under a lot of government pressure in regard to emissions and all within a limited budget under the thumb of a hard nose capitalistic master called Piaggio. I think they are doing pretty darn good given the constraints.
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:huh: Everything is lifestyle connected. Everyone here who own a Moto Guzzi dies so because it fits their lifestyle.
Sorry, but HD sells motorcycles. They happen to seel good ones that people will buy because they work, you can get parts just about anywhere, they have great dealer support and so on.
No matter how much lifestyle goes into marketing, it is just that. The bottom line is they pay attention to their market and sell to it and sell good stuff. I'd never buy one, not for me but there is no arguing they sell high quality.
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Are red suspenders a lifestyle choice :huh:
Dusty
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Sorry Professor, but though I understand what you are saying from a marketing perspective it's still just semantics saying that their BRAND is tied to an image that they use to drive want/sales.
But that doesn't preclude the actual need for a real product behind that image, whether we're talking about Harley, Ducati, Triumph, BMW (cars or bikes), Benz, Porsche, Audi, Apple, Gap, or whoever.
All the marketing on the world can only go so far without the product. Eventually The brand will whither and die without a good enough product.
As for Transportation vs. Image it's not all black and white. Some buy strictly for recreational usage, some for their choice of practical usage, most for some combination.
Let's face it, most car or truck purchases in the US are based on desire as much or more than need.
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It will do, I just acquired mine!
Just had a vision , a certain Navy officer showing up for inspection , all decked out in his resplendent dress whites , wearing red suspenders :shocked: :laugh:
Dusty
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Kev you are 100% correct. Substance matters. But remember, building a better product will not guarantee sales. People must be lead to it and believe it makes them better, prettier, faster, cooler and stand out. It takes both sides. MG has yet to find that balance. Ask Victory motorcycles. It took Arlen Ness to make them cool.
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Ask Victory motorcycles. It took Arlen Ness to make them cool.
Hey , we have Luigi :laugh:
Dusty
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Tell him to crank it up! And to put some lock tite in the muffler shield bolts. And yes rewire that darn starter on the Norge. It sucks.
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Kev you are 100% correct. Substance matters. But remember, building a better product will not guarantee sales. People must be lead to it and believe it makes them better, prettier, faster, cooler and stand out. It takes both sides. MG has yet to find that balance. Ask Victory motorcycles. It took Arlen Ness to make them cool.
God I think the Ness influence has been what was holding them back. They've been mechanically great, but stylistically challenged.
Indian makes more of a splash with essentially the same tech, but better styling and a loose claim on a brand name to which the styling is tied..
So yeah, you need a combination of marketing image and substance.
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I've always had an open mind. That's why I'm able to say I was wrong. I needed EVIDENCE though. Not just shrieking hysteria from people who were actively wanting the new motor to fail. It took me six/seven years to aquire the evidence. When I had it I admitted I was wrong. I have no problem with behaving like a grown-up.
Pete
Mr.Pete, when it comes to Guzzi knowledge and informative contributions to this forum, I ain't a pimple on your ass.
I also stand by the statement that many disparaging remarks have been leveled (for years) at members that dared to suggest
an alternate view on this flat tappet fiasco. That is all.
I haven't called your name out on this.
Fraternally yours,
Michael
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:huh: Everything is lifestyle connected. Everyone here who own a Moto Guzzi dies so because it fits their lifestyle.
Sorry, but HD sells motorcycles. They happen to seel good ones that people will buy because they work, you can get parts just about anywhere, they have great dealer support and so on.
No matter how much lifestyle goes into marketing, it is just that. The bottom line is they pay attention to their market and sell to it and sell good stuff. I'd never buy one, not for me but there is no arguing they sell high quality.
Really? if you ask any top honchos at HD they say they don't sell motorcycles, they sell a lifestyle, so you are completely off. Good try, grasshopper. What I posted here has been MGs attitude before Piaggio became their owner. I don't see it changing any time soon, no matter what anyone here thinks. :cry: I'll believe real change when I see/experience it.
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Wayne , just curious , how many top execs at HD have you asked this question ?
Dusty
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God I think the Ness influence has been what was holding them back. They've been mechanically great, but stylistically challenged.
Indian makes more of a splash with essentially the same tech, but better styling and a loose claim on a brand name to which the styling is tied..
So yeah, you need a combination of marketing image and substance.
Kev they were dying before Arlen Ness restyled the bikes when first introduced. Not my taste either. But go back and research why they hired Arlen and Corey. Ness is recognized in that niche as the "Man". I speak the truth. Indian sells the name Indian. Top Brand recognition. Which just happens to be very good motorcycles as well. Would they sell as well if they were named Polaris?? That is why they paid the millions of dollars for privilege and right to use the Name Indian exclusively.
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No matter how good your product, how well built, how functional......to be successful someone must desire to buy it. Someone must want it enough to pay for it. Being well made is not enough if no one recognizes your product for that or any other quality. Marketing identifies the potential demographic of the consumer pool and attempts to created a demand within that pool of potential buyers.
If a product becomes the center of a consumers lifestyle...ie Jeep and off-roading on the week ends. ATVs in the desert with the family. Adventure bikes and motorcycle vacations. Touring bikes aa a vacation vehicles then you win. A portion of their life and time centers on your product. Provide them with a club...HOG Riders, Goldwing Owners, BMW Owners and you have a peer group and a social community around your product. Peer pressure to remain within the group. And continue to buy your product. The clothing line helps ID people as members of the group. Basic Marketing 101.
My point is that MG has none of this and is attempting to build it to a limited extent. I repeat HD sells lifestyle as much as motorcycles. People what to be part of it. It is asocial network of like minded individuals. Instant acceptance.
There is reason MG targets Germany, France and Italy. HD has no real advantage here. The big blocks (California) fill that market niche nicely. And have. And the V7 fills the "urban metro scene."
Last, go the thread on this forum Entitled "Because They are Cool". This very sweet girl may not know a piston ( or maybe she does) from a connecting rod. But she knows "cool". MG marketing reached her. And she bought a V7. Experienced guys talk (this forum) design, parts, specs and numbers. New riders talk "cool". Good motorcycles are of the heart, not of the head. Marketing makes cool. Engineering makes quality. You need both. Just as we need quality sales and dealer service.
My research after reading every book on MG in print available on Amazon. I bought a step child. Neglected. Forgotten. Misunderstood. Mistreated. As brilliant as it is flawed at times. But with a soul that when allowed to speak stirs me. I love this thing. I want to know more about it. I was asked; "why did you buy that thing??" Because it is alive and it speaks to me. This ain't no appliance homey.
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I tend to agree with the professor the world is obsessed with image not reality I own a Moto Guzzi because I like to be different to the general crowd and I get spoken to wherever I stop because I ride something different yes its a heart decision because there are a myriad of alternatives that make more sense from a head perspective also yes most people on this forum have mechanical knowledge as do I and I have always been interested in mechanical technology and have followed F1 since 1980 once I realised I was never going to own a Ferrari Moto guzzi was my affordable replacement yes I know Pete will say they are not a Ferrari fair call but they are as rare :laugh: particularly mine as its a Bellagio :laugh: but marketing is king in todays world because only us old guys keep anything long enough for it to breakdown HD Ducati Triumph Ferrari etc probably make more money from T shirts and caps then from bikes and cars I can afford a T shirt or cap I cant afford the product but wearing the badge is more cool for young people that's why they pay $90 for sneakers when you can have the same ones from the same chinese factory for $10 but with the wrong brand on them I work with a lot of young people who don't know how to open the bonnet of there car cant read a dipstick you expect that from a girl but most young blokes are now the same most things run on lowest common denominator don't lift them up bring everyone down to that level thats why an oil change at a dealer costs $100s instead of $30 might work for us oldies if we live long enough by the way Im only 50 :laugh:
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Kev they were dying before Arlen Ness restyled the bikes when first introduced. Not my taste either. But go back and research why they hired Arlen and Corey. Ness is recognized in that niche as the "Man". I speak the truth. Indian sells the name Indian. Top Brand recognition. Which just happens to be very good motorcycles as well. Would they sell as well if they were named Polaris?? That is why they paid the millions of dollars for privilege and right to use the Name Indian exclusively.
I'm not sure that the evidence supports Ness' stylistic influence as the factor for their growth.
Personally I think there bikes took a step backwards in aesthetics at that point. The sharp angles, spindly turn signal stalks etc. No thanks.
Hell I've got a friend who traded his older, more organically styled Vic on a newer one, only to sell it and buy another older one.
I think Indian is working out for them because of a combination of selling the heritage AND better styling.
The cruiser/traditional bike market is rough on designers. Harley sets the benchmark and everything else runs the risk of being called a copy or a caricature. Indian has legitimate claim to a similar organic look that is neither and THAT I believe helps their sales.
But, as usual, the quality product is there and that is job one.
On this subject of marketing and image, I think some "authenticity" or arguable tie to said traditional look is important.
It's a factor in the successes of Harley, Triumph, and arguably even Guzzi with the current smallblock.
It's also why JAPanInc. struggles with that market segment.
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MG940, you cover a lot of ground with that post.
I disagree with some parts.
For starters, I don't think the past was all that different. A look at history shows that people are generally the same and generally make the same mistakes and assumptions.
I don't think everyone who rode a motorcycle was always a passionate gear head. I don't think all kids today can't wrench.
I do think trends in technology and reliability have reduced the pressure for riders to be mechanics so there may be a swing in demographics. I just don't think it's a total change.
As for merchandizing it's a common belief that I hear bantered about. Maybe it comes from other forms of it, like movie and toy companies, but that's a different model.
I can't say for sure (and suspect no one that isn't in the accounting or management of a major vehicle producer can) but I suspect strongly Harley and every vehicle manufacturer does NOT make more on the t-shirts and clothing.
If you read Harley's annual report the revenue from bike sales is many, many times the revenue from motorclothes and merchandising. I realize those are gross numbers and not net, but the scale alone suggests my stance.
I know a local Harley dealer pays $10-12/t-shirt (his cost) and self them around $30. So even assuming net of $20/shirt be needs to sell > 85 shirts to make the margin on one 883, or as many as 175-200 shirts to make the margin on dresser models.
And that is only margin in MSRP, not including any markup for freight/prep/financing/service contracts etc.
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Point 8 of the original posts shows the state of denial in the U.K. dealer network. I have must have phoned half a dozen dealers and got the same response (actually two denied point blank there was a problem), all the while knowing my local dealer was saying much the same as Pete Roper is now, albeit at least 12 months earlier.
The default attitude from the dealers is basically to sell bikes and worry about the consequences later. Nothing unique in this but for Guzzi in their niche market status it has been the kiss of death. They haven't got the range of engines that say Honda offer to dilute the fallout so the impact on the brands reputation has been greater.
Dealers probably now view the flat tappet problems as a thing of the past and are ploughing on selling the the new models which hopefully are reliable, with hardly a glance over their shoulders. Which is I suppose is understandable in the cut throat sales business. It just leaves this forum to carry on the hand wringing.
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Panheads forever... :popcorn:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMV7xpq13Ec
(https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Ftse3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.M5c04e8487f134f703f5cf8a47f62509bo0%26pid%3D15.1&f=1)
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My MG gets photographed when parked. People look. My friend's new Harley, not a glance. Way too common. His Knucklehead get photographed. There is some pleasure in owing the uncommon. I have beat this subject to death. It appears that MG will do what it pleases in terms of product development and placement. There is a gap between Italy and the US that even the Design Center did not fill. I rode every new Goose the dealer had in the demo fleet. The big blocks are heavy. The Griso is close to what I want. But I come from KTMs. So, I am jaded. I'd love to have a nice 1200 standard on the V7 model or pattern, just upsized a bit. The BMW twins seem to do OK in this format. But my research indicates and history illustrates that MG and Piaggio will go in their own direction. I don't think they have a clue as to how to utilize focus groups. I attended several put on by Yamaha and they were indeed enlightening. They seemed, seemed genuinely interested in what we had to say in regard to new products. Soon (two years) after the FZ09 and FZ07 came out. And of course both went to the top 10 in sales. Much consumer input. HD does the same with it's loyal following.
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But my research indicates and history illustrates that MG and Piaggio will go in their own direction. I don't think they have a clue as to how to utilize focus groups.
Yeah, Piaggio seems to be stuck with us......