Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: JoeW on December 17, 2015, 08:55:57 PM
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(http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/o521/jwalano/Misc/IMG_20151217_152802678_zpsedyrvsuj.jpg) (http://s1146.photobucket.com/user/jwalano/media/Misc/IMG_20151217_152802678_zpsedyrvsuj.jpg.html)
I'm putting a clutch in an SP and the front motor mount bolt would not budge. I soaked it with PB over night and then used MAP torch to heat the case and tried to work in back and forth with my 1/2 inch impact. After the head sheered, I broke out the oxy acetylene torch and the air hammer. I heated to over 400 degrees several times and still no luck. My only choice was to cut the bolt through the front cover, to remove the engine from the frame. I had a good spare front cover and a newly zinc plated bolt to replace the damaged parts. So, when you're reassembling your bike, be generous with antiseize.
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So, when you're reassembling your bike, be generous with antiseize.
:1:
Especially if you are from the "rust belt" where they tend to put salt on the road.
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I'm putting a clutch in an SP and the front motor mount bolt would not budge. I soaked it with PB over night and then used MAP torch to heat the case and tried to work in back and forth with my 1/2 inch impact. After the head sheered, I broke out the oxy acetylene torch and the air hammer. I heated to over 400 degrees several times and still no luck. My only choice was to cut the bolt through the front cover, to remove the engine from the frame. I had a good spare front cover and a newly zinc plated bolt to replace the damaged parts. So, when you're reassembling your bike, be generous with antiseize.
We used to have to do this a lot in UK but we'd save the cover by opening up frame (head off bolt) and hacksawing through bolt only
Had a man with spark eroder who'd spark the bolt out, no way could I do it with heat.
We changed bolts for SS at that time, people say not to but not one ever seized, of course I always used anti seize so not quite apples / apples.
But I will only use SS engine bolts now, with fine 1.25mm thread, never going through that again, or ugly rusty bolt or nut
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Good tip. Wish I had known this when I reassembled my bike earlier this year!
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I agree with jacksonracing, I use SS and antisieze on the Sfida's mount and have had it out later without an issue.
When disassembling originally it was horrible, seized fast.
Just wanted to add the other little bugger is the inside head nut that you get to via a plug. Its been my experience that both that nut and the plug also seem to seize pretty good too, so lots of anti seize on them too.
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Good tip. Wish I had known this when I reassembled my bike earlier this year!
Still not too late. Put the bike on its center stand and a scissors jack with a block of wood under the oil pan to hold/crib the motor. Pull the bolt out , apply anti-seize and reassemble.
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I just went through the pain of getting that front bolt out. I was determined not to have the remains stuck in the cover.
Some advice--too late for some, but maybe useful for later readers:
Spray penetrating oil on it whenever you walk by: note the bolt is exposed in the center so spray in there too--not just the ends. Some suggest using a mixture of acetone & transmission fluid, but don't use a flame anytime soon after that!
Put Bike on center stand and use a floor jack with q board on it to take weight of engine off frame but don't lift front wheel off.
Heat the 2 ends of the case where the bolt is enclosed & let cool. Do this several times then heat before you attempt to move bolt. Don't heat bolt right before you try to extract.
Use impact gun with sockets with hex head shape inside instead of the ripples--less likely to round off the head.
If the head rounds off anyway, don't give up. You can still weld a piece of steel to the head to act as a wrench.
If there is plenty of room, put on an additional nut and have it come out to exactly the end of the bolt. Work the inside nut against the outside one locking then together--then when you are turning the bolt, have a friend put a wrench on the nut end and turn with you.
If turning doesn't work, use a hefty drift on the nut end of the bolt.
Extreme Actions: As a last resort, once the bolt is ruined, weld the nuts to the bolt end and whack with whatever it takes. When it moves, more penetrating oil--whack the nut end then head end..back and forth then cut off the nut end and drive out the bolt with a drift.
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This is stressing my out now! :shocked: Sounds like a common issue? Weird I never came across this before while reading post after post here when I started working on my bike.
Is it the salt/rust causing this issue, or is it a fitment issue with the long bolt and the cover holes? I little of A and a little of B? Will this be an issue for a bike that say... doesn't ride in the rain? :evil:
I might do this in the spring. I think I'll need to drop the pipes too if I remember correctly to get to that bolt.
I just put a new OEM bolt in during the restoration, which is I think zinc plated. I replaced the bolt because the old one was deeply pitted (makes sense, bike came from MI), but it came out easily. It may have had ant seize, but I'm not sure.
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My LM2 front engine bolt was seized in too.
Really there is no need to butcher the front casing like that though.
As JRC says, hacksaw the bolt to allow the frame to be removed; if you don't have room to pull the side frame member out, drill the head and nut off the bolt shank.
Once the timing chest is removed there are engineering solutions to removing the bolt.
Mechanical sympathy is a wonderful thing.
I also replaced my bolt with an SS item and use lots of copper grease.
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I should have mentioned that the recent bike I was referring to was a T3 and the bolt was seized more firmly than I could imagine. The PO had risen in all seasons. A newer bike or one in a better climate surely wouldn't be as bad. Although it sounds like a disaster, damage was done only to the bolt and in the end I only had to replace that one big bolt. It cost nothing but a can of penetrating oil and a whole lot of patience. The rails, frame, and engine cover are unharmed. Several times during the ordeal, I wanted to just cut through the bolt, but that would mean at least partial engine removal--and the bolt pieces still would have been firmly in case.
I painted the replacement bolt...let it dry completely..then smothered it with antiseize.
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My LM2 front engine bolt was seized in too.
Really there is no need to butcher the front casing like that though.
As JRC says, hacksaw the bolt to allow the frame to be removed; if you don't have room to pull the side frame member out, drill the head and nut off the bolt shank.
Once the timing chest is removed there are engineering solutions to removing the bolt.
Mechanical sympathy is a wonderful thing.
I also replaced my bolt with an SS item and use lots of copper grease.
Joe runs a shop. Unless you run one too (like I do) you may not understand why he chose to do it the way he did. Squirting it with penetrant for weeks and spending hours getting one part off is not an option if you intend on staying in business. Fast and dirty sometimes becomes necessary. Replacement timing covers are a "dime a dozen", so destroying it isn't the end of the earth. Just my opinion.
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Joe runs a shop. Unless you run one too (like I do) you may not understand why he chose to do it the way he did. Squirting it with penetrant for weeks and spending hours getting one part off is not an option if you intend on staying in business. Fast and dirty sometimes becomes necessary. Replacement timing covers are a "dime a dozen", so destroying it isn't the end of the earth. Just my opinion.
Well Charlie, I can understand what you're saying, and it makes sense. I don't run a shop and I didn't realize Joe did.
I'm lucky I don't have to resort to that sort of thing to meet deadlines.
When I tried to remove my bolt it was obvious early on it wasn't going to budge, so I hack sawed it off and got an engineering shop to remove it from the casing.
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Well Charlie, I can understand what you're saying, and it makes sense. I don't run a shop and I didn't realize Joe did.
I'm lucky I don't have to resort to that sort of thing to meet deadlines.
When I tried to remove my bolt it was obvious early on it wasn't going to budge, so I hack sawed it off and got an engineering shop to remove it from the casing.
It isn't just to meet deadlines, time is money, customer's money! I have been removing stubborn bolts for a long time and I know when enough is enough. I figured i was risking damage just by heating the case to 400 degrees plus, if it was that seized, the chances of getting the bolt out without damaging the cover were slim. Also, I have to consider additional costs of services to remove the remains of the bolt. I had 3 good used covers in my inventory. It was the most time and cost effective way of dealing with the problem. To be truthful, I would have done it the same way if it were my bike.
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Damn that is ugly!
I've been using antiseize on the bolt threads and silicone grease on the bolt body because a friend gave me a bucket of silicone grease
It's waterproof and free
Now I hope the bolt is free too
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It isn't just to meet deadlines, time is money, customer's money! I have been removing stubborn bolts for a long time and I know when enough is enough. I figured i was risking damage just by heating the case to 400 degrees plus, if it was that seized, the chances of getting the bolt out without damaging the cover were slim. Also, I have to consider additional costs of services to remove the remains of the bolt. I had 3 good used covers in my inventory. It was the most time and cost effective way of dealing with the problem. To be truthful, I would have done it the same way if it were my bike.
:thumb:
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Now I hope the bolt is free too
Nope. It's about 17 bucks.
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stainless motor mount bolts. I have them on my bike...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MOTO-GUZZI-STAINLESS-STEEL-ENGINE-MOUNTING-BOLT-/260749411200
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This is stressing my out now! :shocked: Sounds like a common issue? Weird I never came across this before while reading post after post here when I started working on my bike.
Is it the salt/rust causing this issue, or is it a fitment issue with the long bolt and the cover holes? I little of A and a little of B? Will this be an issue for a bike that say... doesn't ride in the rain? :evil:
I might do this in the spring. I think I'll need to drop the pipes too if I remember correctly to get to that bolt.
I just put a new OEM bolt in during the restoration, which is I think zinc plated. I replaced the bolt because the old one was deeply pitted (makes sense, bike came from MI), but it came out easily. It may have had ant seize, but I'm not sure.
Well.. uh.. BFD. The whole job will take what? About an hour? <shrug> As Nike said, Just do it.
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stainless motor mount bolts. I have them on my bike...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MOTO-GUZZI-STAINLESS-STEEL-ENGINE-MOUNTING-BOLT-/260749411200
It would be helpful if they told you what models it fits or even the length...
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It would be helpful if they told you what models it fits or even the length...
"This is a Moto Guzzi stainless steel rear engine/gearbox mounting bolt approx 250mm long excluding hexagon head supplied complete with two flat stainless washers , crinkle washer and full nut. Please note these bolts are 12mm diameter."
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"This is a Moto Guzzi stainless steel rear engine/gearbox mounting bolt approx 250mm long excluding hexagon head supplied complete with two flat stainless washers , crinkle washer and full nut. Please note these bolts are 12mm diameter."
I see it now. First time I opened it, the page must not have loaded completely - that description wasn't there.
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It isn't just to meet deadlines, time is money, customer's money! I have been removing stubborn bolts for a long time and I know when enough is enough. I figured i was risking damage just by heating the case to 400 degrees plus, if it was that seized, the chances of getting the bolt out without damaging the cover were slim. Also, I have to consider additional costs of services to remove the remains of the bolt. I had 3 good used covers in my inventory. It was the most time and cost effective way of dealing with the problem. To be truthful, I would have done it the same way if it were my bike.
Not trying to nit pick, I understand your logic but when I did this a lot (25-30 years ago now), covers were neither common nor cheap, at that time Guzzis were actually quite valueable complete, the only ones I parted out were exploded converts, but those engines were always rebuildable, any timing covers I had would go on them.
I did leave a swag of convert timing covers in London tho. They were (are?) landfill
Opening up frame to saw through bolt only takes no more time and cover can be saved for next generation.
Of course use your spares now but getting remains of bolt sparked out "one day" better than destroying IMHO
Glad everyone agrees on SS bolts, it is the real answer, in my AUS and UK bikes, they've already lasted 3 times longer than originals, both bikes used hard in all weathers, at least 20 other bikes from time same applies.
Old Jock
Agree inner stud round nut same problem, anti seize crucial (or replace stud with caphead bolt as with twinplugging)
For blanking plug I had some hex head alloy plugs made, use with fibre or alloy wahers not O ring as orig.
Never ever seize but removing OE steel ones was never as difficult as front cover
Problem in my experience is exactly what textbook says happens with SS and alloy except it doesn't
Plated steel and alloy and salt is the problem
I use SS wheel spindles too, same age, look like new after quick wipe, always assemble with WD40 only