Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: maquette on December 26, 2015, 05:30:36 PM
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I took my new to me '98EV for a shakedown ride today and encountered what I think was a fuel issue. The trip was 400 miles round trip and the bike ran like a clock the first 180 miles at speeds from 35 to 70mph. It then started "bucking" like it was running out of fuel. It did that for several miles and then finally the bike stopped. After a few minutes I restarted it and rode the last few miles to meet my friends. It bucked and stuttered some, but did not quit running.
On the way home it started doing that again and finally died again. I happened to be in the parking lot of an auto parts store and at the urging of my friend on the cell phone, I added a bottle of Sea Foam. It started again and ran the last 180 miles home without a hiccup. All seems to be well now, but my question is, does Sea Foam really work that well? Are there other places I should be looking at to keep it from happening again?
I would welcome all your thoughts and opinions on this issue and want see if there is something else I need to do? I know zip about fuel injection and I don't know how often you can, or should add Sea Foam. At least I made it home. :>)
Thanks,
Tom
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I believe 180 miles is beyond the fuel range so were you running out? or how much fuel was in the tank? could be clogged at the petcock from schmutz in the tank, how long was this bike sitting?
it will also do that starving for fuel thing if the tank venting is plugged, was there tank suck when you opened the cap?
third but not likely (unless you fooled with) the trim dial on the ECU can flood the motor if turned too far one way, don't mess with that dial, it should have plastic cap over it.
there is a fault code system you can set off on a 98 EV.. search for the FI supplement manual
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by the way did you read the directions? a whole bottle of Seafoam is way overkill.
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Yes, Sea Foam does work wonders but follow the instructions. Check your fuel filter and reverse blow into it. Don't suck. Check to see if you have flow. Probably need a new one. NAPA should carry a compatible one. Similar to any German car one.
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I believe 180 miles is beyond the fuel range so were you running out? or how much fuel was in the tank? could be clogged at the petcock from schmutz in the tank, how long was this bike sitting?
I had put fuel in during the 180 mile leg and had about half a tank.
it will also do that starving for fuel thing if the tank venting is plugged, was there tank suck when you opened the cap?
I didn't notice any tank suck when I opened the cap
third but not likely (unless you fooled with) the trim dial on the ECU can flood the motor if turned too far one way, don't mess with that dial, it should have plastic cap over it.
I didn't fool with the trim dial
there is a fault code system you can set off on a 98 EV.. search for the FI supplement manual
That I'll have to look in to
Thanks for the suggestions
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Yes, Sea Foam does work wonders but follow the instructions. Check your fuel filter and reverse blow into it. Don't suck. Check to see if you have flow. Probably need a new one. NAPA should carry a compatible one. Similar to any German car one.
Tom, I'll look into the fuel filter and it's too late this time to read the directions. :>(
Thank you, too.
Tom
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You may have gotten lucky with dissolving the crud blocking the internal guts of the filter.
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Sounds like what happened to me last summer. One wire to the electric petcock broke. The fuel pump had just enough power to draw fuel but not for long. I could hear the fuel pump laboring. After I installed a manual petcock the fuel pump resumed it's normal quiet operation and has been running perfectly
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Sounds like what happened to me last summer. One wire to the electric petcock broke. The fuel pump had just enough power to draw fuel but not for long. I could hear the fuel pump laboring. After I installed a manual petcock the fuel pump resumed it's normal quiet operation and has been running perfectly
+1 !
I have a spare electric tap, free if you need it..
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+1 !
I have a spare electric tap, free if you need it..
Thanks for the offer. Sounds like I need to investigate a manual tap, no? :>)
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Thanks for the offer. Sounds like I need to investigate a manual tap, no? :>)
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=30&products_id=39
(http://www.mgcycle.com/images/atrex/01105460.jpg)
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http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=30&products_id=39
Thanks Charlie, I just ordered it. I found an old thread where a guy had a similar problem and ended up with the filter on his petcock being blocked. I'm concerned that I may have the same problem and that the Sea Foam I added cleared it up for now, but that the problem will return. I'll get the tank off before too long and see what it's condition is. My fuel pump is kind of noisy and seems to labor instead of the usual "hum" that I equate with electric fuel pumps. Hopefully the pump is OK and cleaning the tank and a new petcock cures my problem.
Tom
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The main filter under the tank is HUGE and will take a lot of crud. The little 'pencil' filter on the petcock is very small and easily clogs.
Remove the tank.
Remove the petcock.
Flush the tank well and repeatedly with clean fuel and run that through a simple cloth filter to catch debris (you will find rust, paint, sand, etc.).
Once the tank is cleaned, reinstall the petcock and the tank and add new, clean fuel.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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You need to bring the bike over here and run it up to 200k/ph, or 125 mph!
Lots of fun and does wonders for the motor.
If it don't blow up on ya, it will run forever :grin:
Let us know what you do/find. My EV is a 98 also.
Tom
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Side stand switch acting up? Many disabled it. Manual on efi and trouble codes: http://dpguzzi.com/efiman.pdf The relays in the fuse box were often suspect and the fellow that hosts the manual posted sells good ones. It was common practice to replace them.
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Tom,
I hope you don't mind if I board this thread. I have a '98 V11 EV that I acquired and put in my basement about six years ago. It was last registered in '02 and shows 18K miles. It was mostly apart and it took me a long time to figure out where the pieces all go. I finally sorted the wiring out the other day.
It started up and seems to run fine. First time running in many years. I recently cleaned out the tank with Metal Rescue. Parts of it were pretty rusty, but it's all clean for now. Fresh ethanol free fuel is in there now. It idles just fine once warmed up. I tried to ride it and there isn't enough power to make it up the driveway.
Will a Wix 33008 filter be appropriate? What's the chance the filter is the culprit? Is it likely that the injectors are nasty? Do I take them apart, or is Sea Foam recommended to try first?
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I tried to ride it and there isn't enough power to make it up the driveway.
Is it likely that the injectors are nasty? Do I take them apart, or is Sea Foam recommended to try first?
not enough info, more discretion please .. is it running only one cyl? does it rev up in neutral?
I would try seafoam and not take apart the injectors without more proof that was the problem.
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My throttle response is fine in neutral. It runs on both cylinders. They seem to be firing evenly. Going up my driveway is a heavy load, as it is very steep. I made it halfway and it quit. It won't pull. It would taxi me around on the bottom OK and idles with at about 800 with the choke off.
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Not a choke .
Dusty
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Not a choke .
Dusty
No. It's the enrichener. I stand corrected.
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No. It's the enrichener. I stand corrected.
Not an enricher either , just a fast idle lever . Only bring this up in case you are thinking it is a mixture issue .
Dusty
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The main filter can block off also especially if the bike has lived outside the rust blocks the main filter, it usually shows up bogging down on the hills.
Take the fuel cap off and dribble a few drops of fuel into the moat drain to male sure its clear otherwise any water from washing ends up in the pump.
There is nothing wrong with the electric petcock as such. If you ty-wrap the wires to the body so they don't flex where they come out of the epoxy they won't break.
Listen to the fuel pump, does it seem to be extra noisy?
Pull the return hose off where it joins to the tank at front by the steering head, put it in a bottle and see how much fuel comes out when you turn the key on, it should
be a full pipe.
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My throttle response is fine in neutral. It runs on both cylinders. They seem to be firing evenly. Going up my driveway is a heavy load, as it is very steep. I made it halfway and it quit. It won't pull. It would taxi me around on the bottom OK and idles with at about 800 with the choke off.
could the clutch be slipping? is there a drip from the bell housing that smells like gear lube?
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could the clutch be slipping? is there a drip from the bell housing that smells like gear lube?
There are no indications of a leak or slipping clutch. Since I had a rusty tank, I'll try to pick up a fuel filter this week. That is, if the Wix filter will do the job.
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....... Since I had a rusty tank, I'll try to pick up a fuel filter this week. That is, if the Wix filter will do the job.
The chances are the moat drain is blocked then, it's very common with these bikes, the water collects around the sunken cap and runs into the tank un-noticed next time you fill up.
Both of my EV drains were blocked so I assume it's a common problem.
If you take the filter off it's very easy to back-flush the rust out, fill it partially shake it up and let it run backwards out the inlet.
(http://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s526/Kiwi_Roy/Misc%20Pics/FilterContents1_zpsccb88373.jpg)
When I first bought the bike in Denver I noticed how noisy the pump was and it started bogging down on the mountains. Eventually I figured out the filter was blocked so I
flushed it for the first time alongside the road, this picture is the second flush I did back home, it still blocked off the shop cloth.
Of course if you are able to find a replacement it would be interesting to cut the old one open to see how much rust it contains.
To unblock the moat drain take the chrome pieces off the tank and drill it out with a short length or steel cable (thanks Patrick for that tip).
Its a pigtail shape so a straight drill is useless, prepare to waste several hours eventually you may be able to blow it out.
Swill a little Rust Mort around inside the tank to take care of the rust left behind.
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I replaced my fuel filter. I cleared that drain. No joy. It starts and runs fin. It won't pull. I have adjusted the valve lash. I put some Seafoam in the tank and let it idle for a while. As of now, it won't climb the driveway.
http://vid1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff485/jetmechmarty/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-12/1231151631_zpsnrfqp0jj.mp4
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Is it maybe just running on one cylinder?
Is it misfiring under load?
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Sounds like one cylinder. Look at the plugs and plug wires. Swap left and right to see if if moves. Feel the header pipes to see if they get equally hot. Maybe your valve set technique is still off and one set of valves are open at compression TDC for that cylinder.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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My last post has video of it running. It's running on two. It gets a bit of a knock when I try to go up the driveway. It's very steep.
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Hmm , any chance the timing is retarded ?
Dusty
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Hmm , any chance the timing is retarded ?
Dusty
Timing is set by flywheel and camshaft sensors. Can't move them. Timing is fixed and non- adjustable.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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Timing is set by flywheel and camshaft sensors. Can't move them. Timing is fixed and non- adjustable.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
Well yeah , I know all of that , but this thing is acting like the timing has gone woogity .
Dust
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If it's running on one cylinder you can hear it miss, you can touch both heads and the cool one is dead. One cylinder still has enough power to run a good 60 mph.
You might keep a spare plug with you. Once it runs rough, pull the lead and stick the plug in it and observe whether it fires or not. This is quicker than unscrewing a hot plug.
It sounds like you're getting weak ignition when you under load. You might check the ground.
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Thanks! Unfortunately, I have to put this on the back burner for a few days. Perhaps I should let Tom have his thread back on fuel delivery and I'll start a new one when I get back to it.
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Thanks! Unfortunately, I have to put this on the back burner for a few days. Perhaps I should let Tom have his thread back on fuel delivery and I'll start a new one when I get back to it.
Marty,
Please stay here, I'm following your issues with interest. I haven't started on mine and won't until at least Monday. If that doesn't cure my problem I'll know what else to look at.
Tom
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Hopefully, I can find a few minutes after work on Monday. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out if it's fuel or spark that's missing. Without checking, I'm assuming that I have compression. I'd like to be dealing with it now.
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SEAFOAM
This stuff is legendary, isn't it? I have found it a decent solvent and it has helped me with some carburetor issues. I once ran a 1 hp Briggs & Stratton engine on 50% SeaFoam and 50% gasoline. (It wouldn't run on 100% SeaFoam) It kept me from having to break out my tools and fix the carburetor.
Anyway, it's in the mix with my fuel in the Guzzi now. I don't believe it can hurt anything. I'm sure it can dissolve varnish from old fuel deposits. I'm not confident that it's going to fix my bike. Anyway, to answer the very first post, you can use it often mixed with gasoline without hurting anything, IMHO. I've been using it for many years. I just never have expected it to perform miracles. I expect it's OK at cleaning injectors if they aren't completely plugged up.
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SEAFOAM
Anyway, to answer the very first post, you can use it often mixed with gasoline without hurting anything, IMHO. I've been using it for many years. I just never have expected it to perform miracles. I expect it's OK at cleaning injectors if they aren't completely plugged up.
Marty,
I went to Sea Foam's website and if I read it correctly, they are basically saying you can't add too much, (short of 100%). They recommend like an ounce per gallon with 3-5K miles as a "normal" range for treatment. I am going to replace my petcock with a manual one, clean out the tank, make sure the vent/drain is clear and change the main fuel filter. Hopefully I can get on it tomorrow sometime. Once I get the main filter out, I plan to cut it open and see what it looks like inside. My bike has 39K on the clock and I have no idea of it's maintenance history.
Tom
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Tom,
I just put a Wix 33008 fuel filter in mine. I made a few laps around it with a roll of metal duct tape to take up the space in the clamp. I removed the rust from the tank with Metal Rescue sourced from Home Depot. So, whatever is wrong with my bike isn't the tank or filter. I removed the tank and the petcock was closed. It did not leak. It obviously opens because it continues to run, even if it's on one cylinder.
I have never ridden this bike. I've been looking at it sitting in my basement for too many years. It's time to put this one on the road.
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if you only drink one glass of red wine in less than 1 hour on the 98 you can check the valves, replace the plugs and check the plug wires to make sure they are in the coils. then clean both the timing sensor on the cam and the flywheel sensor for debris. replace all of the relays and if there is still an issue the real Guzzi mechanics will know where to go next.
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if you only drink one glass of red wine in less than 1 hour on the 98 you can check the valves, ....
I just have to be at home to do it. I'm 125 miles away.
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Sounds like a Guzzi Garage party to me, I limit it to 2 shots, Ready for some help Marty?
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Sounds like a Guzzi Garage party to me, I limit it to 2 shots, Ready for some help Marty?
I'm in!
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Do what Vagrant says and clean the pickups, they are magnetic and crud collects on them, especially the one for the flywheel . Let's hear it try to go up the hill, maybe it's in second gear, no offense intended
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Tom,
I just put a Wix 33008 fuel filter in mine.
I have never ridden this bike. I've been looking at it sitting in my basement for too many years. It's time to put this one on the road.
Marty,
Did you remove the petcock, and if so, what did it look like? I bought the same fuel filter from NAPA. Oh, and how did your main fuel filter look?
Tom
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Day 2 of retirement Marty, I'm going to get bored. I'll bet it's something simple.
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Marty,
Did you remove the petcock, and if so, what did it look like? I bought the same fuel filter from NAPA. Oh, and how did your main fuel filter look?
Tom
The petcock was in a box when I got the bike, as was the fuel level transmitter. It was clean and I cleaned and derusted the tank before installation.
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speaking of the issue, my '98 is dripping gas under the left side injector soaking the TPS.
I shut off the pet cock. I'll yank the tank and check the fuel connection hose on the left side. <shrug>
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Another thing that happened to my 98, it started missing on one cylinder under power, it would idle fine.
I found the plug leads were the carbon resistor type and it also had 5k resistor caps, one of the leads was arcing inside where the core was missing.
As soon as I could find some copper core cable I binned the carbon type.
If you pull both the plug caps they should measure the same resistance from cap to chassis, about 8k Ohm from memory.
The low gear on these bikes is quite tall, could it be you are just approaching the driveway too slow, how does it run at speed on the flat?
The 98 EV is one of the best Guzzis made IMHO
BTW, what ECU does your bike have, the large P8 or the small 15M?
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The low gear on these bikes is quite tall, could it be you are just approaching the driveway too slow, how does it run at speed on the flat?
The 98 EV is one of the best Guzzis made IMHO
BTW, what ECU does your bike have, the large P8 or the small 15M?
(http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff485/jetmechmarty/V11%20EV/07311315341_zps1245dc3f.jpg) (http://s1238.photobucket.com/user/jetmechmarty/media/V11%20EV/07311315341_zps1245dc3f.jpg.html)
I can't imagine a larger one.
I don't have enough room to run out on the flat, as I am at the bottom when I come out of the garage. I never rode the bike, so it's completely unfamiliar. Since the experts watched the tape and say I'm running on one cylinder, I'll start there.
BTW, below is some of what was in the bottom of the tank. It's a surprise that I haven't found any holes.
(http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff485/jetmechmarty/V11%20EV/07291313541_zpsccfdbea9.jpg) (http://s1238.photobucket.com/user/jetmechmarty/media/V11%20EV/07291313541_zpsccfdbea9.jpg.html)
(http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/1000/88/886aa3a5-4a24-42d5-a649-0bf61e95a901_1000.jpg)
I used this to get rid of the rust.
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Day 2 of retirement Marty, I'm going to get bored. I'll bet it's something simple.
I can't believe you finally retired.
with no Riders hill anymore you should have lots of cash work if you want it.
me I'd rather ride.
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speaking of the issue, my '98 is dripping gas under the left side injector soaking the TPS.
I shut off the pet cock. I'll yank the tank and check the fuel connection hose on the left side. <shrug>
wait on this. brand new ones did it on the dealers floor. they usually quit when put into service. this IMHO was also the reason for the TPS failures. the dried fuel left deposits on the TPS that screwed up readings. occasionally a cleaning with electrical contact cleaner would give them new life.
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wait on this. brand new ones did it on the dealers floor. they usually quit when put into service. this IMHO was also the reason for the TPS failures. the dried fuel left deposits on the TPS that screwed up readings. occasionally a cleaning with electrical contact cleaner would give them new life.
so, there might have been a slow drip that just go worse?
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I can't believe you finally retired.
with no Riders hill anymore you should have lots of cash work if you want it.
me I'd rather ride.
I'll still be at the shop in Marietta, part time
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Well I began my introduction to fuel tank removal and have some questions. With the key in the off position, I still get fuel out of the electric fuel petcock. The wires to it were not tie wrapped and when I went to (gently) unplug them, one broke. I have a manual petcock to install, so I'm not too concerned about that. I siphoned as much gas out of the tank as I can get.
I removed the screw and tool tray and in the front, (under), of my tank is a line attached that I guess is the pressure adjuster? It's held on by a 19mm nut and I can't seem to find a way to get a wrench on it. There is also another line that I guess is the vent. It has a clamp of some sort, but will have to be removed before the tank will ever come off.
Questions:
1) Is there a tip to get at the 19mm nut to remove it (It is right hand thread, yes?)
2) How do I remove the clamp on the vent hose without destroying it, it looks like one that is crimped on?
Thanks,
Tom
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Since it sounds as if the lines are still original, (and really ought to be replaced at this age), I would cut the line and worry about getting that clamp off on the bench if it were me. Just remember that the pressure regulator has a nipple that does not have a hose on it. It simply vents to atmosphere. The regulator should remain attached to the tank.
If fuel is coming out the petcock, than it is stuck open. Normally it would only open when energized. If a wire broke off it's toast anyway.
John Henry
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The pressure hose nut usually requires a special wrench. Find an old, sacrificial one and grind away like this:
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/tool/MVC-245X_zps4pmadmut.jpg)
You will get better access to the nut if you lift the aft end of the tank and slide it backwards an inch or two.
Leave the breather hose attached at the tank. There is a one-way plastic valve downstream under the chrome panel on the left side of the steering head. The hoses usually just pull apart at that fitting.
On the early EV, the regulator stays on the frame by the right cylinder. On the later EV, the regulator is moved up to the front of the tank.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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speaking of the issue, my '98 is dripping gas under the left side injector soaking the TPS.
I shut off the pet cock. I'll yank the tank and check the fuel connection hose on the left side. <shrug>
Just a heads up. Those tanks have been known to leak at a place where they are stretch formed during manufacture. It's toward the front about 2/3 of the way to the top. You'll see some wrinkles in the steel. It'll leak under the paint, and look like a fuel tap leak.. the low point. Don't ask me how I know..
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Here's what I've found so far:
(https://elrick.smugmug.com/EV-fuel-issues/i-zN9sR2x/0/XL/003-XL.jpg)
https://elrick.smugmug.com/EV-fuel-issues/i-8Jc9wTN/0/XL/001-XL.jpg
Now I need to get to the main fuel filter and then buy some new lines and fittings, clean out the tank and roto-root the vent.
Thanks!
Tom
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Tom,
If the tank is just rusted at the bottom from what I'll call ethanol poisoning, clean it up with Metal Rescue and drive on! I had no difficulty removing the hose with a cheap 19 mm combination wrench.
As for mine, I'm feeling like a dumb-ass. I got caught overthinking this thing. Spark plugs were my final issue. I changed them and it fired right up on two cylinders. It pulled me right up the driveway without issue.
Why would someone have put BPR7ES plugs in it? The book says BPR6ES. :huh:
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Tom,
If the tank is just rusted at the bottom from what I'll call ethanol poisoning, clean it up with Metal Rescue and drive on! Spark plugs were my final issue. I changed them and it fired right up on two cylinders. It pulled me right up the driveway without issue.
Why would someone have put BPR7ES plugs in it? The book says BPR6ES. :huh:
Glad to hear you seem to have fixed it Marty. My tank seems to have had a fair amount of water in it too, so I have to clean out that moat and clean the tank some more. The temptation to not fool with the main filter is great, but I suppose I should change it, as well as the fuel lines. It looks like someone has been in there before, but I already have the filter, so. I am surprised at how much "sludge" is in there.
Tom
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Tom,
Change the hoses and filter. Pretend it's fun! If the tank hasn't rusted through, I would do the minimum. That's why I used Metal Rescue. It won't etch good metal or eat away the factory liner. I try to make sure my bikes are full of ethanol free gas when they spend any time parked.
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Tom,
Change the hoses and filter. Pretend it's fun!
Marty,
Fun? I'll have to give that some thought. BTW, is there supposed to be a line off the vent tube under the tank, or whatever that metal thing in the middle of the tank is called? Seems like there should be something maybe routed to the ground. I have to source some Metal Rescue along with the new fuel lines and fittings. Maybe even a new air filter? Who knows where this could lead? :grin:
Thanks,
Tom
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BTW, is there supposed to be a line off the vent tube under the tank, or whatever that metal thing in the middle of the tank is called?
That is the ground drain for the filler neck moat. Yes, there should be a small hose leading to ground. Make sure you can blow air up through that drain. If it plugs, it becomes the source of water into your tank.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA