Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: bad Chad on December 29, 2015, 06:40:53 PM
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What is your opinion? And perhaps the 10 frame is a bit constrictive, as I'm sure a number of you will site ABS, which has been around much longer, but, and this is significant, it is not going big time main stream in 2016. Also, much more advanced rubber compounds for tires, (they get my vote), along with far better breaking components. Yet there are many more, ride by wire, traction control, air bags, the list goes on and on, not to mention gear etc.
Any way back to my original question, for me, it's tires!
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I'm going with traction control as it has saved my arse more than once . I never even knew it had been intervening until I shut it off one day. I would imagine a lot of squids are still with us because of it. :popcorn:
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I have an 8V Norge and my other and long termed owned Guzzi is a T-3. So talking almost a 40 year difference. Don't get me wrong the T-3 is a very enjoyable and fun bike in many ways but when I get back on it after riding the Norge T-3 is almost scary for a few miles anyway.
Brakes are from another planet and I have steel lines on the T-3. The brakes on the Norge are so much stronger and easy to use well, not even counting ABS.
If you push the T-3 too hard turning at speed, flex can get your attention. The suspension in other ways is not nearly as secure feeling (I use Ikons). Remembering what tires were like years ago I also have to agree they have been one of the biggest advancements and have probably got some of us out of more trouble than we knew we were in. The overall performance of the Norge suspension is fantastic in comparison and much more secure feeling. Wet weather tire performance has been greatly improved. Computer/fly by wire is very much a love/hate relationship IMHO until long term reliability is further established. My 2.5 cents worth for the evening.
GliderJohn
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Tars.
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I'm with Chuck. Tears are amazing and everything else pales.
I mean Tars.
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ABS, good tires and brakes have all been around in the last ten years. We're talking between late 2005 to date. ABS has been around for a lot longer.
If there were a true advancement it would be integration of engine performance controls. Traction control is an off shoot of engine performance control. Getting engine performance, braking and the entire performance envelop working together is a significant advancement.
You have to get a German or Japanese bike to really see it in action, or one of the better evolved Italian brands like Aprilia or MV Augusta to really see it working.
Integrated rather than added on is the biggest advancement.
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A Traction control is an off shoot of engine performance control.
Traction control is an off shoot of ABS...
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Traction control is an off shoot of ABS...
Coincidentally. Traction controls moderate engine power to limit slip and moderates suspension to do the same. How does ABS affect anything when the bike is going straight and brakes are not being applied? :rolleyes:
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Coincidentally. Traction controls moderate engine power to limit slip and moderates suspension to do the same. How does ABS affect anything when the bike is going straight and brakes are not being applied? :rolleyes:
Think about the method in which the wheel slip is measured, and the electronics package that is being used to calculate the slip, and you'll have the answer (which I've already provided you).
Without ABS, there is no Traction Control.
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What is your opinion?
While I agree tires have improved, I don't think they have improved "signifcantly" enough to be the single most significant advance.
The proliferation of ABS is a contributor. It existed prior to 2005, but now it's going to be on just about every motorcycle.
Adding Traction Control to the ABS is my vote. Traction control is as huge a safety advance as ABS, and didn't really exist in motorcycles 10 years ago.
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Think about the method in which the wheel slip is measured, and the electronics package that is being used to calculate the slip, and you'll have the answer (which I've already provided you).
Without ABS, there is no Traction Control.
Yes there is. One has to do with braking, the other has to do with everything else.
Traction control started with limited slip and other moderations of everything but braking. You can indeed have traction control without ABS, they are different systems.
You're confusing stopping with going.
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Yes there is. One has to do with braking, the other has to do with everything else.
Traction control started with limited slip and other moderations of everything but braking. You can indeed have traction control without ABS, they are different systems.
You're confusing stopping with going.
LOL! You need to read deeper into that Wikipedia entry you just Googled up!
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Bosch "Cornering ABS" Try grabbing a handful of front brake in the middle of a turn on a wet road without it?
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LOL! You need to read deeper into that Wikipedia entry you just Googled up!
I don't use wikipedia, apparently you're better versed with that. I guess younguns weren't around when limited slip was the hit thing to have.
Traction control can work in the absence of ABS. Do you always use your brakes on turns? :huh:
You know, not everyone thinks the sum of human knowledge resides in wikipedia or the internet.
Nevertheless, you're really confused if you think that you can't have traction control without ABS. Prove it.
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you're really confused if you think that you can't have traction control without ABS.
I never said that. (And yes, my daily driver has V8 power, 3.73 gears, and LSD).
However, Electronic Traction Control, as it exists today, is piggybacked on ABS.
We're talking motorycles in this thread. Electronic Traction Control has only been applied to motorcycles which already have ABS.
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I never said that. (And yes, my daily driver has V8 power, 3.73 gears, and LSD).
However, Electronic Traction Control, as it exists today, is piggybacked on ABS.
We're talking motorycles in this thread. Electronic Traction Control has only been applied to motorcycles which already have ABS.
Not a question, they are different systems working on different parts if motorcycle performance. While traction control is put on bikes with ABS ( they for sure aren't going to remove it) they might work together but are exclusive to one another. Traction control will work in the complete absence of ABS. ABS likewise will work in the absence of traction control. In other words they are not dependant upon each other to provide their functions although they might benefit each other.
I say this because of the Wikipedia comment which was gratuitous. I didn't use it, rarely bother to look at it unless referenced by others.
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I never said that. (And yes, my daily driver has V8 power, 3.73 gears, and LSD).
However, Electronic Traction Control, as it exists today, is piggybacked on ABS.
We're talking motorycles in this thread. Electronic Traction Control has only been applied to motorcycles which already have ABS.
Correct !
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Yes , and the ABS and TC systems on motorbikes use the same sensors and ECU circuits .
Dusty
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Not a question, they are different systems working on different parts if motorcycle performance. While traction control is put on bikes with ABS ( they for sure aren't going to remove it) they might work together but are exclusive to one another. Traction control will work in the complete absence of ABS. ABS likewise will work in the absence of traction control. In other words they are not dependant upon each other to provide their functions although they might benefit each other.
How is wheelspin measured on the Electronic Traction Control systems?
What is being used to process the wheelspin information?
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For goodness sake
rac�tion (trăk′shən)
n.
1.
a. The act of drawing or pulling, especially the drawing of a vehicle or load over a surface by motor power.
b. The condition of being drawn or pulled.
2. Pulling power, as of a draft animal or engine.
3. Adhesive friction, as of a wheel on a track or a tire on a road.
ABS and traction control use SOME of the same sensors. They do different things. The origin of SOME of the data doesn't mean much.
Just what does the ABS sensor have to do with traction control if the brakes are not being used and the tires are not spinning lose of the ground but losing lateral adhesion?
Its a fail. That anyone is trying to prop up that ABS depends on or makes traction control dependant upon it is silly.
Goodness, all things in the bike that use electricity get it from the same source, doesn't mean they are the same thing or dependant on each other.They can be but must not be. Geesh.
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How is wheelspin measured on the Electronic Traction Control systems?
What is being used to process the wheelspin information?
You're barking down a dark alley. Is a wheel spinning when it slides laterally?
Maybe there is too much spinning going on where you are.
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Next, how ABS controls the BBQ.
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TC works basically the same way as ABS . It measures wheel speed against the speed the MC is traveling . Sorry NP , but yes the two systems use the same sensors and ECU circuitry .
Dusty
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The way I see it, if you're a good enough rider, you don't need all these electronic aids to make up for your lack of competence. A skilled rider instinctively knows what to do by feel in most conditions. Either it comes to you automatically or you need an aid to get you thru the moment safely.
I don't need no stinkin' ABS! The Guzzi integrated braking is all I need on most Tonti bikes.
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(https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/Guzzi/i-mzCXtmj/1/X2/Duck-X2.jpg)
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Just what does the ABS sensor have to do with traction control if the brakes are not being used and the tires are not spinning lose of the ground but losing lateral adhesion?
Traction Control of "Lateral Adhesion"?. Tell us more.
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TC works basically the same way as ABS . It measures wheel speed against the speed the MC is traveling . Sorry NP , but yes the two systems use the same sensors and ECU circuitry .
Dusty
Just because something uses SOME of the same sensors doesn't mean they are the same or do the same thing. You're backing up a losing horse.
There is:
ABS
Traction control
Stability control
ABS works on braking
Traction control works on going
Stability control in the integrator of both systems.
Stop making up things. A sensor can serve many master controls that do completely different things. You should have stayed out of this one.
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Traction Control of "Lateral Adhesion"?. Tell us more.
As a moderator, you should have known better than to do what you're trying to do, get shown the door because you said things that don't mesh and then trying to dissect statements to misdirect the mess you started and got yourself into.
Go back and read what you wrote, then tried in vain to support, that ABS is traction control and that traction control came from ABS.
Next comes some proof. You have a hopeless position and anyone who looks up the difference between ABS vs Traction Control will see the big fail on your part. Then when they look up Stability Control they'll know just what silliness started with saying ABS is Traction Control.
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Just because something uses SOME of the same sensors doesn't mean they are the same or do the same thing. You're backing up a losing horse.
There is:
ABS
Traction control
Stability control
ABS works on braking
Traction control works on going
Stability control in the integrator of both systems.
Stop making up things. A sensor can serve many master controls that do completely different things. You should have stayed out of this one.
Dude you kill me . When did I say they were the same thing , What I said was they use the same systems after you claimed they didn't . AND , WTF does the old limited slip systems used in cars have to do with motorcycles . Who is making stuff up ? Plus , using insults instead of facts is a poor way to debate . Maybe you should have stayed out of this one :rolleyes:
Dusty
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If you dare:
http://jalopnik.com/this-is-how-abs-esc-and-traction-control-work-513807036
http://www.l2sfbc.com/rmp/blog/stability-control-ESC-vs-traction-control
http://www.edmunds.com/car-safety/traction-control.html
Plenty more but maybe they are all wrong too.
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Lateral loss of traction? Here you go. Sorry but you're just unwilling to learn.
From one of the links.
"Traction control deals specifically with lateral (front-to-back) loss of friction during acceleration."
What does it take?
Led you to water. Chose to disbelieve it all you want.
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Lateral loss of traction? Here you go. Sorry but you're just unwilling to learn.
From one of the links.
"Traction control deals specifically with lateral (front-to-back) loss of friction during acceleration."
What does it take?
Led you to water. Chose to disbelieve it all you want.
Oh, for doG's sake... You're a trip NP. I thought you didn't use Google... Now you're posting up any link you can find! Nothing on motorcycle ABS/TC, though, huh? LOL!
lat�er�al
ˈladərəl,ˈlatrəl/
adjective
1.
of, at, toward, or from the side or sides.
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Uh , you led us to how a 4 wheeled vehicle works . Hell , the article even states stability control , which MCs don't have , is a spinoff from ABS .
Dusty
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TC works basically the same way as ABS . It measures wheel speed against the speed the MC is traveling . Sorry NP , but yes the two systems use the same sensors and ECU circuitry .
Dusty
The answer depends on whose electronics are being used. Magnetic Marelli on my MV Agusta measures rate of change on the crankshaft.
One of the advancements I particularly enjoy is slipper clutches, and I'd place it next to tyre improvements, high on my list.
Ciao,
DC
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The answer depends on whose electronics are being used. Magnetic Marelli on my MV Agusta measures rate of change on the crankshaft.
One of the advancements I particularly enjoy is slipper clutches, and I'd place it next to tyre improvements, high on my list.
Ciao,
DC
That is interesting .
Yes , slipper clutches are cool .
Dusty
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That is interesting .
Yes , slipper clutches are cool .
Dusty
My Suzuki `91 VX800 has a slipper clutch. It helps when down shifting. :azn:
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The answer depends on whose electronics are being used. Magnetic Marelli on my MV Agusta measures rate of change on the crankshaft.
Interesting, but what does it compare the crank's speed to? Does it not compare engine speed to wheel speed/road speed? And isn't road speed now measured (along with wheel speed) with the ABS tone rings?
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Oh, for doG's sake... You're a trip NP. I thought you didn't use Google... Now you're posting up any link you can find! Nothing on motorcycle ABS/TC, though, huh? LOL!
lat�er�al
ˈladərəl,ˈlatrəl/
adjective
1.
of, at, toward, or from the side or sides.
There you go again. Where did I say I didn't use Google?
I said specifically that I rarely use Wikipedia but I guess as long as ABS is the same thing as Traction Control, Wikipedia might as well be Google or the Internet.
That was really funny Rocker. And all along I thought BMWs and Moto Guzzis had different engine designs, little did I know that because they both used gasoline and both had two cylinders they were the same bikes.
:thewife:
Hurry, someone tell Honda, Kawasaki, BMW and all the rest they are totally screwed up, ABS is traction control because they MIGHT use some of the same sensors.
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My Suzuki `91 VX800 has a slipper clutch. It helps when down shifting. :azn:
I think we were referring to a back torque limiting clutch that prevents wheel hop . Interesting , didn't know the old V twin Suzukis had a form of slipper clutch .
Dusty
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Now excuse me while I go out and throw the steaks on the block of dry ice because there is no such thing as cold really, there is just absence of heat and everyone knows dry ice burns too.
Peace :boozing:
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Now excuse me while I go out and throw the steaks on the block of dry ice because there is no such thing as cold really, there is just absence of heat and everyone knows dry ice burns too.
Peace :boozing:
While you are at it , buy a GT 750 and make it stop from a true 60 MPH in 117 feet :evil:
Dusty
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Education
Drinking and driving riding is dangerous
Helmets save lives
Loud pipes just piss people off
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Education
Drinking and driving riding is dangerous
Helmets save lives
Loud pipes just piss people off
:1:
When I saw the original question about safety advances, I also thought education.
I've got a couple new-riders at work (and I'm trying to get them off the Harley Sportsters...). However, they watch crashes on YouTube and analyze what went wrong and how to prevent similar errors. And since I'm an old fart and still reasonably fast (at least I seem blazingly fast to them), they want to talk situations with me.
The technology can only go so far - then the remaining errors are due to human factors. This is similar to safety training in the aviation industry. Historically, the causes of "incidents" were mostly mechanical. Then, as technology improved, the mechanical faults declined - which dropped the total number of incidents, but raised the percentage of incidents due to human factors. Today, the majority of airline incidents are due to human factors and the biggest safety advances have to do with better communication, decision making, situation awareness, etc.
On yesterday's "Scura Rally" a couple sport bike riders alerted us to the possibility of black ice ahead. That sort of communication, concern for fellow riders, and situation awareness is, IMO, just one example of education: the biggest advance in safety in the last decade.
BTW - during our "rally" we rounded one corner on Mulholland Drive that is notorious for filmed crashes. I recognized it and slowed way down. There's no f-ing way that I'm going down on that spot.
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Two-part test for car drivers.
It's still woefully easy for people to pass the car test, and until that changes significantly, all the electronic gizmos in the world won't help . . . :sad:
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While you are at it , buy a GT 750 and make it stop from a true 60 MPH in 117 feet :evil:
Dusty
Oh look, double down because one thing might use sensors from another means they are the same thing.
If only all the Dodge Ram owners knew their trucks were actually Ford F150s because both use the same fuels.
Whoda thunk.
Hey Dusty, ever think of proving whatever Cycle World or whatever mag tested the thing was wrong instead of just saying so? Seems just because you say something it must be. Like ABS being the same thing as Traction Control right? Suspenders too tight?
If you can't prove otherwise, just say it ain't so.
Man really did land on the moon. I know its hard to believe but really, they did. And no, they didn't find little green men there nor any cheese.
But what the heck, you win, ABS is the same thing as Traction Control cause you know, you said so. Forget proving it, who needs proof when you can just say so. You are right and every motor vehicle manufacturer is wrong. How are I not believe?
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Situational Awareness!
New vehicles that can now talk to each other and provide important road/traffic conditions and recommendations to the rider and other drivers, in a timely and easy to comprehend way,of course!
http://www.vt.edu/spotlight/impact/2013-09-30-motorcycles/connected.html
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic047/Irwin%20Corey_zpsgo9s8tva.jpg)
Wheres my prize?
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Some very rude comments here.
My friends who work at Triumph tell me that the ABS sensors and technology that goes with it make all the other stuff possible on the motorcycles they make.
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I think the recent intro of airbag vests and jackets will prove to be huge. Expensive now, but hopefully prices will come down. Nice to have when all your TC, ABS, and sphincter control fails when the old lady pulls out in front of you.
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All of this technology is meaningless without a solid rider training background and constant practice to hone your skills. Avoiding problems before needing the technology to save your flesh is what I feel is most important.
Steve.
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Robots.
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The way I see it, if you're a good enough rider, you don't need all these electronic aids to make up for your lack of competence. A skilled rider instinctively knows what to do by feel in most conditions. Either it comes to you automatically or you need an aid to get you thru the moment safely.
I don't need no stinkin' ABS! The Guzzi integrated braking is all I need on most Tonti bikes.
I respectfully disagree with this . There is no doubt that skill is the no. one safety feature, however in certain situations it will only bail you out to a point. T.C. can prevent a situation from reaching a threshold where even the most skilled rider is doomed. In the age of 100 plus h.p. bikes it provides a huge advance in safety. The very best riders in the world rely on it every race so why not pass it's benefits on to us street riders? I'm not saying every bike needs it , but something kicking out 100+ ft.lbs. of torque, can't hurt.
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I must pull the KTM card again. Bosch was first, working with KTM to incorporate lean sensitive TC/ABS on the 1190. KTM received 1 year free before Bosch could sell the system to other MC brands.
Until you hit the brakes hard in a curve and NOT have the bike standup but just slow as you wish, traction allowing brakes to the max for the conditions, you have not ridden!
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When did we land on the moon and was it made of cheese ? Must have been asleep :laugh:
Interesting way of to confuse the issue at hand , sure we landed on the moon , what does that have to do with this discussion :huh:
Dusty
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Hmmm, redirecting a bit away from the machinery itself (and my opinion the big plus is integrated ABS/braking/traction and CAD design)---what has changed? To me: safety training as in the many fine basic schools required before getting the M endorsement on a license. Then there are forums where questions can be asked (i.e. best way to handle high speed Houston freeway riding) and getting truly valuable answers and advice.
Damn I wish it would dry out here. Roads are slime, and no sun, ugh.
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Isn't it great, how a discussion on wheel spin/lock can get so emotional :grin: ?
What Rocker and Dusty are saying is of course absolutely correct ie, ABS and Traction Control are obviously not the same thing but they are related, and traction control was developed out of ABS. Here's a nice Link that says exactly that:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/28000-traction-control-explained.htm
John
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Bosch "Cornering ABS" Try grabbing a handful of front brake in the middle of a turn on a wet road without it?
Or with it, unless they now calcuate lean angle.
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sorry, I don't own a motorcycle newer that 15 years old. Even my oldest bike with 80k miles has radial tires and cartridge forks. Two of my 3 bikes have fuel injection. All have a disc brakes.
I guess I'll read about what I am missing.
I've been wearing helmets and gear for a long time.
Here ya go. Cycle Gear sells ATGAT cheaply available. Now you can get full gear for a cheap price and just shop for it in town. Of course the Internet helps too. But it's great just to walk in and shop and can find everything you need at a cheap cost. Finding riding pants, riding boots and gloves used to be a challenge. Typically you could only get helmets and occasional jackets. Also on-road and off-road stuff.
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well way to go Chad.
Set off a food fight over ABS and traction control.
:boxing: :boxing: :boxing:
:violent1: :violent1: :violent1: :violent1: :violent1:
:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
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Like old school trained top road racer Nicky Hayden says, the more electronic gizmos on a bike keep the rider from having to learn the skills they need to do the same thing w/o them. The gizmo rider relies on them to bale his ass out when he can't cope with the situation. The real answer is the rider learns the skills needed himself and is prepared for almost anything that he encounters.
Any rider who doesn't have the skills needed to control a 100 or more hp bike should not ride 1. Hell, 70 hp is more than enough in most situations. My LM IV had 62 hp on a dyno and it was way more than I really needed, thusly I sold it.
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All my bikes are almost equally paralleled as far as technological advancement. Only one of the 8 even having fuel injection and none having fancy traction control or ABS or other modern wizardry. So in my case I'll have to say the biggest safety advance for me is cost effective the HID headlights.
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Or with it, unless they now calcuate lean angle.
System works in wet, gravel what ever you wish, but you still need to be a rider. Also comes with software linked, only use the front brake lever, but you are free to add additional rear brake which is also controlled by the lean sensitive ABS.
I find the linking is conservative, in that you can always add a little more braking with rear brake.
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Some good thoughts here, interspersed with a good deal of who's dick is bigger! :laugh:
NP, I ask this honestly, I'm not being a smart azz, do you ever ponder why it is you get caught up in so much BS?
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Just returned from a stop in at the local BMW, Suzuki dealer as I wanted to check out the new r1200rs and the s1000r. Got shooting the shit with the owner of of the dealership about all the whiz bang gizmo's we have been discussing here. Had to laugh when he said that anyone who knows how to ride knows when to cut the throttle or pump the brakes and he's been riding for over 50 years. He went on to acknowledge that these new systems can react in a fraction of the time of the even the very best riders and at race speeds they are a necessity now. I personally believe they can save your arse on the street in the right situation as well. They can never replace skill but they can enhance it for even the best of riders. Most all the street motorcycle improvements over the years have been handed down from the race track, these are just another example of that. It certainly does not make anyone a less skilled rider because they take advantage of technology.
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While I do not own a motorcycle with ABS/TC, I can see their occasional advantages.
I do ride pretty hard sometimes. One time, a decade ago, on my Sport 1100, the rear end came around on a wet super-tight section of AR-74 near Ponca Arkansas. I thought I was toast, but was able to manage the throttle and get the bike back in line. Had it gone the other way, it could've been a helicopter ride after they hauled me out of the gulley. If I'd been riding a bike with traction control, getting slideways would've never happened.
I've not ever had a braking incident on wet pavement, but I always have good tires and think way ahead. And, I rarely ride in the kind of dense traffic where panic stops can happen.
My 2014 V7 Special will probably be my last non ABS/TC bike. I doubt I'll have the choice next time I buy. They'll all have it !!!
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A quick link to how TC works on Motorcycles:
https://rideapart.com/articles/motorcycle-traction-control-work (https://rideapart.com/articles/motorcycle-traction-control-work)
Just for the extra data.. :Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu
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I consider myself a pretty good rider, significantly better than average, but not anywhere close to Really good. The one time I have yet crashed in anger would never have even raised a neck hair, had I been on a bike with ABS.
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Here is another discussion of the Bosch system (calculating lean angle, yes)
http://www.cycleworld.com/2015/02/26/bosch-motorcycle-stability-control-all-in-one-motorcycle-safety-system-explained/
And it looks like Continental is now in the game as well:
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/continental-optimized-curve-braking/
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A quick link to how TC works on Motorcycles:
https://rideapart.com/articles/motorcycle-traction-control-work (https://rideapart.com/articles/motorcycle-traction-control-work)
+1 TC
Was watching the movie "Hitting the Apex" (again) the other night, and there's a bit detailing Dani Pedrosa crashing as a result of the thin wire to the rear wheel pickup getting severed & losing traction control. . . ."immediately sending a massive & uncontrollable hit of power to the rear wheel."
The result's not too nice- watch up to ~40sec. : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNI9DOoaXTA
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+1 TC
Was watching the movie "Hitting the Apex" (again) the other night, and there's a bit detailing Dani Pedrosa crashing as a result of the thin wire to the rear wheel pickup getting severed & losing traction control. . . ."immediately sending a massive & uncontrollable hit of power to the rear wheel."
The result's not too nice- watch up to ~40sec. : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNI9DOoaXTA
That's what happens in MotoGP where you are going as fast as you possibly can and totally rely on your gizmos to keep you upright............ not knowing 1 of your gizmos has been harpooned.......... ..and then you thusly get thrown off your bike unexpectedly. :copcar: