Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: LBC Tenni on January 03, 2016, 12:05:31 AM
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I took my Griso to the dealer today for an inspection of the tappets. With just 6400 miles on the clock, two of them are already showing significant damage. Pics below. I know Pete and others have already said it, but I'll join the chorus. If you own a flat tappet 8v, take it for an inspection immediately. Do not keep riding and waiting for a noticeable problem. Mine have already lost enough DLC to cause damage, and it's still running like a top. Do it now. Don't wait.
(http://i68.servimg.com/u/f68/18/90/00/87/image26.jpg)
(http://i68.servimg.com/u/f68/18/90/00/87/image27.jpg)
(http://i68.servimg.com/u/f68/18/90/00/87/image28.jpg)
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ouch that does not look good
What oil has been used?
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ouch that does not look good
What oil has been used?
Please don't even think about going there!
Luckily it looks like this will be covered, parts anyway which is the best one can hope for.
Pete
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Let's face it every single flat tappet 8v motor needs converting to rollers regardless of miles covered, age, oil used, location etc.
Anyone that intends to ride their bike is deluded if they don't get on with a conversion asap.
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Quote from Molly:
Let's face it every single flat tappet 8v motor needs converting to rollers regardless of miles covered, age, oil used, location etc.
Anyone that intends to ride their bike is deluded if they don't get on with a conversion asap.
I can't argue except not everyone has $2,000 laying around to spend on what is basically a toy for most of us and a competent mechanic to do the work.
GliderJohn
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Quote from Molly:
I can't argue except not everyone has $2,000 laying around to spend on what is basically a toy for most of us and a competent mechanic to do the work.
GliderJohn
Hear, hear! :thumb: Piaggio should bite the bullet and fix this thing, parts and labor.
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Luckily it looks like this will be covered, parts anyway which is the best one can hope for.
Pete
The best part is Piaggio has a known problem and this ^^^ is the best you can hope for. Really makes you want to go out and support the brand.
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What oil has been used?
All of the ones that have failed were using synthetic oil.
:boxing:
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I would just add that anyone taking their 8v for tappet inspection should request pic's of the tappets and cam noses. There have been dealers who have reportedly done the inspection and reassembled the cam boxes then sending the bike back into service with a clean bill of health, while providing no visual proof to the owner. In short cover your arse as it is now apparent that there is now rhyme or reason to the failures in regards to use or mileage or service intervals. They are all doomed unfortunately. Also why wait when at such low mileage damage is evident and Piaggio will pay for a kit. I never thought mine would show any wear at 5000 miles but it did.
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f10/whaler123/IMG_0306_zpsst2sdccy.jpg)
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All of the ones that have failed were using synthetic oil.
:boxing:
Difficult to interpret this piece of info in isolation. Perhaps all the ones that didn't fail were also running synthetic oil.
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It's not an oil issue, it is an inherently bad design issue, hence the redesigned roller top end. My 09 had three oil and filter changes in 5000 miles with agrip gp 10/60 and still went tits up. Procrastinating on this one will only risk catastrophic damage as some have found out. Even if piaggio paid parts, I would hate to see the labor and machine costs for a complete rebuild. Any guesses?
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(http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah305/mgregomail/DSC_0208_zpssugon4nm.jpg)
These had 3500 miles on them. Seems obvious the DLC was starting to come off. I did the conversion --
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Having changed lots of these at all different mileage w/failed, I would say it is cause of poor quality control from the suppliers they(Guzzi) have. I would like to see the ones in a high mileage roller motor and if this is THE fix.
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Quote from Molly:
I can't argue except not everyone has $2,000 laying around to spend on what is basically a toy for most of us and a competent mechanic to do the work.
GliderJohn
John, inspection as the vid I posted shows takes little time. If that is undertaken and wear is apparent a kit will be provided as long as the bike has a full service history. Installing an 'A' or 'B' kit takes only an hour or so more than the inspection once the motor is accessible on something like a Griso.
The models that will be more pricey are Norges and Stelvios, (And in the markets that have them 1200 Sports.) simply because there is more crap that has to be removed, and it has to be, to fit a 'C' kit.
Like it or not NO manufacturer is going to offer warranty on a machine that hasn't been maintained and the maintenance schedule is written in the warranty and service book! I'm sorry but while I would like everyone to get a free kit I don't in fact think it outrageous that the company ask for proof that their machine has been maintained to their standard.
For years I defended the design because I could see no detectable evidence of wear but I was hardly going to start stripping down top ends of people's engine's on a whim. Even when I did the first tappet swap on mine there was zero evidence of any wear at a mileage that was many times that of machines that were experiencing failures elsewhere! I also knew for a fact that the standard of maintenance in a lot of shops was at best dubious. I had no evidence to suggest it was a design problem. I now accept that I was wrong and, unlike many people, I have no problem with being wrong. One can't simply change one's opinions on a whim, you need evidence. Unfortunately that evidence is now in and waiting for it cost me an engine! Far better for others that they know so they can address the issue pre-emptively.
There are some things that really gall me about Piaggio's behaviour over the whole fiasco but in all honesty I don't think you would find any other company that would address the issue a whole lot differently. My advice now would be to get your Flattie checked at the earliest opportunity to minimise risk of further damage. It won't cost you a lot but it might save you a shitload down the track.
Pete
PS, Steve, I know of one roller Stelvio that is now approaching 200,000 Km with nothing more than 'Book' servicing. I also have yet to hear of a single failure of the roller top end in either a 1200 or 1400. If they are failing someone is doing a very good job of keeping it quiet.
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Having changed lots of these at all different mileage w/failed, I would say it is cause of poor quality control from the suppliers they(Guzzi) have. I would like to see the ones in a high mileage roller motor and if this is THE fix.
Are you saying that were the flat tappet parts made correctly that the problem might not exist? That is contrary to a design problem but MGs problem regardless, they are selling the bikes.
If the problem exists in roller bikes given their different design, at what mileage would you be looking for the indications?
Proof would be in the inspection and pictures. It shouldn't be too hard to convince someone with a roller bike and the mileage at which even the start of the problem ocurrs to get an inspection.
Proof is better than a say so.
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I think any problems with the roller design would have reared up by now. Change over in 2012, three years and no reported problems. My only concern is the tendency for the 8v mill to accumulate mayo in the rockers. I can see how this could in theory lead to increased wear due to oil compromise, or even corrosion during storage periods. I continue to run a o.c. baffle in cold weather to keep the oil temp up above 100c. I also plan on pulling the covers and cleaning out the moisture and giving things a shot of wd 40 before winter storage.
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Like it or not NO manufacturer is going to offer warranty on a machine that hasn't been maintained and the maintenance schedule is written in the warranty and service book!
There are some things that really gall me about Piaggio's behaviour over the whole fiasco but in all honesty I don't think you would find any other company that would address the issue a whole lot differently. My advice now would be to get your Flattie checked at the earliest opportunity to minimise risk of further damage. It won't cost you a lot but it might save you a shitload down the track.
Pete
Other motorcycle manufacturers have made good on problems, paid in full by warranty long after the warranty was out if date. Just because Moto Guzzi doesn't do it or it doesn't happen down under doesn't mean it is the way it is.
Suzuki paid for ECUs long after the warranty had expired for 2004&5 models of the DL1000, that in 2010!
No, the maintenance does not have to be written in the book in order to get warranty service. Dealer records of service or receipts for parts or supplies is also sufficient. If you want to say it must be written in the book where you are, fine but that doesn't mean it is like that everywhere.
Hopefully, those not living in your country don't rely on these blanket statement because that is not how it works everywhere.
If a failure started during the warranty period, in many places it must be repaired under warranty. To make these blanket statements means those believing them get screwed because they might wait rather than get service at MGs expense rather than their own, that isn't right.
It is incumbent upon every owner to find out how warranties work where they live, not based on opinion or interpretation of those who don't live there.
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Scary stuff. :shocked:
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Hey Pete , I think you caught a troll. :huh:
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Pete, That's good to know about their fix for longevity. I've got more lined up for inspection.
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Scary stuff. :shocked:
Not scary. In many states but not all, there is an implied warranty and other provisions of warranties imposed on manufacturers and those provisions are not binding in other states or countries.
This is why blanket statements should not be relied upon, especially in situations like this. Implied warranties can run as long as 4 years.
It behooves each person to find out exactly what they are entitled to without regard to what anyone else says and regardless of who they are or in what regard they are held.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with seeking what you paid for nor availing yourself of every remedy allowed.
Look it up, an implied warranty can be enforced if the failure can be shown it started or had to have started within the standard manufacturers warranty period or within a certain time limit. Even if the manufacturers warranty has expired, the implied warranty survives that.
It comes down to knowing your rights where you live. Rely on opinion and you will find yourself on the crappy end of the stick every time. Find out for yourself and be willing to do more than hang your head and turn tail and dig intonyour own pocket because you want to take one for the Gipper.
Those that are responsible for defects and such like nothing better than for owners to just walk away, dig into their own pockets to pay for repairs.
In the US, each state has government codes or laws that give you rights when buying a product, including a motorcycle. They exist because manufacturers have screwed over countless people, making and selling defective products, including some motorcycles.
Find out for yourself. Don't accept the first "no" or the second or third. No problem or defect ever got fixed in the absence of complaints.
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Hey Pete , I think you caught a troll. :huh:
What part of what I said isn't true?
Regardless, anyone reading the threads about this at least have the info to go find out for themselves what rights they have. They can choose to do what they want but at least because its what they want and not a follow the crowd thing.
That was my last comment on tappets. Its your money.
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[ :popcorn:e
PS, Steve, I know of one roller Stelvio that is now approaching 200,000 Km with nothing more than 'Book' servicing. I also have yet to hear of a single failure of the roller top end in either a 1200 or 1400. If they are failing someone is doing a very good job of keeping it quiet.
[/quote]
Good news Pete , Thanks .
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If the problem exists in roller bikes given their different design, at what mileage would you be looking for the indications?
Proof would be in the inspection and pictures. It shouldn't be too hard to convince someone with a roller bike and the mileage at which even the start of the problem ocurrs to get an inspection.
Why should we be looking for a problem that isn't known to exist? I mean no offense N.P. just don't understand your lack of confidence in one of the oldest mc brands on the planet. These are fantastic bikes, perfect in every way ? not , but fantastic just the same. They acknowledged the flat tappet problem with an early recall, that didn't do it so they redesigned the whole timing system out of pocket and are providing the very best fix to even out of warranty owners with a very fair policy. What's not to like?
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While this subject has been beaten to death I have a question. I have a 2012 Norge that I believe was mfg in 2-2012. [Hard to read with a mirror.] I have heard that some early 2012 engines still had the flat tappets. So my question is: would a 2-2012 mfg date be considered mid year? I have had zero luck with my dealer. I took it in early for the 12,000 mile service so they could check it out. The service department refuses to believe there is a problem and ignored my request to check and tell me what I have. When I arrived to pick the bike up [ a 70 mile trip] they had forgotten to check. After I raised a fuss they took it in the back and after 15 minutes came out and said they thought it was a roller tappet but couldn't be sure. He thought it looked high to be a flat tappet. When I am able I will try the other dealer in my area to see if they are more helpful.
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Latecomer with no skin in the game here, but as a QA guy in manufacturing, I'd like to read the Guzzi-authorized text of the recall notice. Does anybody have a copy handy ?
When words like defect, responsibility, failure, design, suppliers get used, it can be interesting to review the source material. I wonder what the design spec for the cam and lifter say, and how closely it was met by the supplier(s) of those components.
EDIT: I just came from the LeMans IV thread at http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=80870.0 and what was available regarding the front triple tree issue was a " circolare technica " or technical instruction. It's difficult to blame them for not providing the engineering change notice that would likely have contained all that same information AND the disposition of the previous revision parts.
Those dispositions may have been for Work in Process, Stock, material at Suppliers, and parts in the field.
And they would have been Scrap, Rework, Use As Is, or Use To Depletion, or something of that nature.
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What part of what I said isn't true?
Regardless, anyone reading the threads about this at least have the info to go find out for themselves what rights they have.
Most of the time to understand those rights or to get them enforced takes an attorney/court. With less money and time with out ones bike the repairs can be completed.
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While this subject has been beaten to death I have a question. I have a 2012 Norge that I believe was mfg in 2-2012. [Hard to read with a mirror.] I have heard that some early 2012 engines still had the flat tappets. So my question is: would a 2-2012 mfg date be considered mid year? I have had zero luck with my dealer. I took it in early for the 12,000 mile service so they could check it out. The service department refuses to believe there is a problem and ignored my request to check and tell me what I have. When I arrived to pick the bike up [ a 70 mile trip] they had forgotten to check. After I raised a fuss they took it in the back and after 15 minutes came out and said they thought it was a roller tappet but couldn't be sure. He thought it looked high to be a flat tappet. When I am able I will try the other dealer in my area to see if they are more helpful.
Only requires removing a valve cover to confirm rollers. I know Pete posted some pic's somewhere but if you look down through the lifter bores in the cam box with a flash light (directly under the rocker arm ends opposite the valve adjust end) you can see the rollers riding the cams
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What the blazes IS a troll ??
NP seems to put a lot of thought into subjects he is passionate about.
Digs his Norge, and has HIS ideas of how Guzzi should conduct business.
YMMV...
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I'll post up a couple of pics again later this morning so people like 'Lost' can see what to look for to confirm one way or another whether a machine is flat or roller. It's a very easy check, most important thing is to be careful removing the plug caps.
Pete
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Latecomer with no skin in the game here, but as a QA guy in manufacturing, I'd like to read the Guzzi-authorized text of the recall notice. Does anybody have a copy handy ?
It's not a recall. It's another 'technical instruction'. There was never a recall issued.
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Pete, That's good to know about their fix for longevity. I've got more lined up for inspection.
Good-o. Better for the customer and less work for us if we catch it early. So far, since introducing my 'Inspect 'em all' policy I haven't found a good 'un with over 5,000 km on the clock.
Pete
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After I raised a fuss they took it in the back and after 15 minutes came out and said they thought it was a roller tappet but couldn't be sure. He thought it looked high to be a flat tappet. When I am able I will try the other dealer in my area to see if they are more helpful.
Morons. The difference is quite obvious to anyone who has ever worked on an 8V. Unless yours is the first 8V they've ever seen?
Also, as they seem to be sticking their heads in the sand re this issue, I would be looking elsewhere for service.
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Rollers
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/757/20666596154_7f0da31257_z.jpg)
Flats.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5759/20516760602_ee73a0d0d4_z.jpg)
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:1: to what Molly said. Yes, it's a bad situation. Yes, Piaggio need a savage rogering for this. No, it's not your choice of effin oil. Yes, every single flattie will need the conversion sooner or later. Beating your chest and screeching about litigation won't help. Who you gunna sue? You can't sue your dealer, they're innocent in all this. Morons and idiots maybe, but innocent. Sue Piaggio? Knock yourself out. By the time the lawyers have raped your wallet, it would have been quicker and cheaper to just get the conversion done. "But I have rights!", you screech. No one gives a flying f*ck about your rights. Least of all, Piaggio. All you need is a full service history, or a documented service history and a good dealer to go to bat for you. You'll have to pay something, there's no escaping that. Just do it.
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Pete,
Thanks for the pictures. i am sure you are tired of hearing about this.
Jim
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This Bulletin will most likely turn into a deal like the Hydro motor, goes on & on w/bikes out there and owners haven't a clue there is a fix cause they don't go to the dealer for work or ask the dealer about campaigns that are open on their VIN.
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Pete,
Thanks for the pictures. i am sure you are tired of hearing about this.
Jim
Jim the only thing I'm tired of is having to deal with F*cked-up 8V's! Its such a lovely motor I hate that it has this curse and it really pisses me off that its not being widely publicised and addressed by many dealerships. Its not like checking is difficult or time consuming, even on the *Harder* models but the consequences of NOT finding out early can lead to much worse damage.
There are very good reasons to use a fully synthetic oil in the 8V but tappet wear is not one of them so the fact that every time someone new joins the conversation and says 'Oil!' or 'ZDDP!' it does get annoying as that has been covered umpteen times and it isn't the issue. There have also been numerous other theories put forward from the well researched to the downright crackpot but at the end of the day, at this point in time, none of that matters! What does matter is raising awareness and getting the problem addressed in the best and most expedient fashion before the shit really hits the fan. Flatulent barking about blame and responsibility won't change anything. Doing something before the damage becomes terminal is a far more sensible option.
Pete
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Well Mr Pete, between your exhaustive efforts to edumacate us and having Guzzi Steve in
my back yard,
I'm taking the plunge to rollerize this bad momma~jomma of a Stelvio I enjoy so dearly.
Thank You both sincerely.
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..... or like so many things in life, you simply vote with your wallet. Unfortunately, that's where I am. And don't like having to do it.
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Thing is Bob that as long as the kit can be claimed the cost isn't exorbitant! Sure with a small tank Stelvio that needs a 'C' kit you have to take all the tank covers and crap off and then the tank and then the plates that secure the heads to the frame before you can yank the heads off so that adds a bit of time but its still going to be cheap compared to a major service on many models from other brands assuming the work is performed correctly. I have a feeling there are a lot of machines out there that have never had their valves checked and adjusted for instance.
If you have to buy the kit? Yup, its a massive PITA and adds considerably to the cost. DAmn good argument for keeping service records eh?
pete
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Honda finally recalled the 1800 Gold Wings for a faulty brake issues that has been happening for years. actually they issued it over a year ago but had no fix other than to bleed the system 6 times and it was common to have it happen again anyway. having the rear brake start working all by itself at 80MPH is a bit scary. it doesn't matter how old the bike is or if it was ever serviced they are fixing it for free now that they finally figured out how to.
of course what would you expect from a company who gives a 3 year unlimited mileage warranty with free roadside and unlimited towing miles for free with 4 more year being purchased for $500-$750 depending on the dealer.
just saying they want to keep selling bikes and cars for that matter.
if you screw up and build a POS but fix it you will be forgiven.
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Another question. My 2011 Norge has 13,000+ miles. I will be having it at least inspected and regardless may just say the hell with it and go roller anyway. Let say however that I have it inspected and all looks good at this point, is the motor probably good here on out or if and how often do you do further inspections?
BTW, thanks Pete for your input, you take a lot of time to try and help all us poor souls out.
GliderJohn
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hard to give an answer on that John as, as I said before, since instigating my 'Inspect 'em all' policy I haven't found one that wasn't showing signs of wear.
What I would do is ask for photo's to be taken of the tappet faces and cam nose circles. there is no such thing as *Acceptable wear*! Any missing DLC, no matter how small in area, indicates that the tappets and soon the cams are 'Donald Ducked'.
I think the reason I was lulled into a false sense of security was that my valve clearances never changed. It wasn't until the wear was well advanced that the clearances began to open up. The only other thing I can remember as being noticeable is that my oil started to become much more discoloured at about 30,000km. I didn't think much of it simply assuming that there was slightly more blow-by as the rings aged but with the wonder of hindsight I think it may of portended the denouement of the DLC.
pete
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Difficult to interpret this piece of info in isolation. Perhaps all the ones that didn't fail were also running synthetic oil.
My 'synthetic oil' comment was to entertain.
It is obviously a material/design issue.
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Since failure of the flat tappet motor is a certainty because of poor design or poor materials used or poor quality control, and nothing to do with whether or not the bike was maintained properly, why would there be a requirement to provide a maintenance history in order to qualify for replacement parts? The original parts are defective, they will fail because they are defective whether or not adequate maintenance is done. Maintenance is not the issue here, but it is being used against the owners of flat tappet motors to screw them out of the compensation they deserve.
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Standard issue corporate policy. Doesn't mean its fair or I like it but it can and will be argued that the failure *may* be down to the service schedule not being followed.
Pete
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Another question. My 2011 Norge has 13,000+ miles. I will be having it at least inspected and regardless may just say the hell with it and go roller anyway. Let say however that I have it inspected and all looks good at this point, is the motor probably good here on out or if and how often do you do further inspections?
BTW, thanks Pete for your input, you take a lot of time to try and help all us poor souls out.
GliderJohn
Make sure the dealer takes pictures of the tappet surfaces AND submits them to Piaggio, no matter what their personal opinion of the matter is. My mechanic thought they looked fine - normal wear and tear - but he took the pictures and upon my request submitted a claim to Piaggio which they accepted. My bike is now rollerized.
You have the collective experience from input here and on grisoghetto.com, good chance he only has the experience from his shop - unless he checks the forums. Signal to noise ratio is typically not good on forums so I'd be surprised if he did. So take advantage of us. :laugh:
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Scary stuff. :shocked:
If I remember correctly, you have a 2014 Norge. Your Norge has roller tappets, not the problematic flat tappets.
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If I remember correctly, you have a 2014 Norge. Your Norge has roller tappets, not the problematic flat tappets.
I feel for you guy's with the 'flat tappet 8V's.
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While this subject has been beaten to death I have a question. I have a 2012 Norge that I believe was mfg in 2-2012. [Hard to read with a mirror.] I have heard that some early 2012 engines still had the flat tappets. So my question is: would a 2-2012 mfg date be considered mid year? I have had zero luck with my dealer. I took it in early for the 12,000 mile service so they could check it out. The service department refuses to believe there is a problem and ignored my request to check and tell me what I have. When I arrived to pick the bike up [ a 70 mile trip] they had forgotten to check. After I raised a fuss they took it in the back and after 15 minutes came out and said they thought it was a roller tappet but couldn't be sure. He thought it looked high to be a flat tappet. When I am able I will try the other dealer in my area to see if they are more helpful.
I have mentioned this before but some dealers are in denial about the issue. To me they are either lying through their teeth or are incompetent (don't know how to do the job) or the factory is telling them there is no problem with the design if the bike is maintained correctly.
All evidence now points to a design fault that will inevitably lead to failure. If there is any justice the factory should communicate this to it's dealers and authorise the replacement of the parts. But I bet there is no hope of that now.
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Roller tappets were not installed until much later in the year. Mid-summer if memory serves. If you pull the valve covered your self and compare to the photo's Pete has supplied it's pretty easy to tell. My money is on flat for you. Sorry.
Pete has also documented how to remove the tappet assembly, then the cam carrier so you can take pictures of the tappets and submit the results to Piaggio. At this point I can't think of any good reason to support your current dealer. Good chance there is an independent shop around that can pull the bits for you too. Once apart; I'd just leave it that way until the replacement bits arrive.
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Roller tappets were not installed until much later in the year. Mid-summer if memory serves. If you pull the valve covered your self and compare to the photo's Pete has supplied it's pretty easy to tell. My money is on flat for you. Sorry.
Pete has also documented how to remove the tappet assembly, then the cam carrier so you can take pictures of the tappets and submit the results to Piaggio. At this point I can't think of any good reason to support your current dealer. Good chance there is an independent shop around that can pull the bits for you too. Once apart; I'd just leave it that way until the replacement bits arrive.
Which year?
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Which year?
2012
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2012
Thanks.
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will Piaggio accept a report on the condition from a non Guzzi shop ? there is only one Guzzi dealer in Scotland and I wouldn't let them change bulb for me based on past experience
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My Stelvio is a '12, last 6 on the VIN are 111746. The bike was sold 8/12 so late in the sales year. It had flat tappets. Any '12 that had rollers must have been made just before the traditional August vacation month!
FWIW, Piaggio has told my 'dealer' that it will not reimburse me (or the dealer) for the roller kit. All my tappets showed wear, the cams are burned a bit. I have written directly to Piaggio NA to appeal this decision. Wish me luck.
Peter Y.
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Roller tappets were not installed until much later in the year. Mid-summer if memory serves. If you pull the valve covered your self and compare to the photo's Pete has supplied it's pretty easy to tell. My money is on flat for you. Sorry.
Pete has also documented how to remove the tappet assembly, then the cam carrier so you can take pictures of the tappets and submit the results to Piaggio. At this point I can't think of any good reason to support your current dealer. Good chance there is an independent shop around that can pull the bits for you too. Once apart; I'd just leave it that way until the replacement bits arrive.
Thanks for the information. I didn't mean to get everyone all riled up again about this subject. I will have to pick a warmer day and take a look for myself.
Jim
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will Piaggio accept a report on the condition from a non Guzzi shop ? there is only one Guzzi dealer in Scotland and I wouldn't let them change bulb for me based on past experience
I don't know what the situation is in the UK. From what I've heard the UK importer seems to be particularly obtuse in regard to its customer base.
Pete
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I don't in fact think it outrageous that the company ask for proof that their machine has been maintained to their standard.
Sorry to disagree on this one Pete but when the failure is totally unrelated to the servicing (when, where, how, mileage intervals or what oil is used) as has been demonstratted here by bikes that have actually been over serviced with the correct oil then Piaggio need to man up and do a technical update without question. Its is now proved that its not a case of IF but WHEN and servicing is totally irrelivent.
My Ducati 1198S was recalled for R/H Ohlins fork leg replacement due to a manufacturing defect that meant if the pinch bolts were overtorqued the lower would crack. No proof of anything required in the way of dealer only servicing or torque wrenches used just straight up replacement. As it should be.
Ciao
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Phil, as I said, I don't like it but its standard corporate practice. Yes, its a design/materials issue but to prove that will be difficult and costly. If someone wants to throw money at it trying? Knock yerselves out! I just suspect that it would be throwing good money after bad.
pete
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Flat Tappet problems on 8V Guzzis permed 2012.
Just as a heads up all of the flat tappet bikes are likely to fail.
It seems that diagnosis is in some cases poor and in many cases there may actually be shameful gouging of customers who choose to have their tappets inspected to check for wear.
For what its worth every flat tappet bike I have inspected after my revision to my earlier opinion on the matter having been proven wrong has shown signs of wear. Every one. Not a few, many. I now have a veritable alp of dead camshafts and tappets in my workshop. Believe me when I say that you DO NOT want to wait until the problem becomes unavoidably apparent as by then it will of fed shit all through the engine and the chances of you loosing the big end bearings increases exponentially. at that point it starts getting REALLY expensive.
Unfortunately at least one person I know was charged eight hours to have their tappets inspected on a Griso. This was so patently barmy that my mate Mark who was over today videoed me stripping a left hand cambox on another low mileage bike today. We only filmed the LH side but stripped both. The LH side is the harder of the two but can be done without removing the tank. The video, which I will link up here later, lasts for 13 minutes. This is from start to the point I've disassembled the cambox on the bench. I wasn't working fast. The RH box took about ten minutes longer as I had to remove the tank to de-tension the cam chain on the RH side and the 'Quick Disconnect' didn't want top so i dropped the injectors off the manifolds.
One bloke in So-Cal was charged EIGHT HOURS for this job, (Plus the reassembly which takes only a fraction longer.) and was told his tappets were fine. No pictures were supplied and to be honest I doubt the veracity of this claim.
Yes. We are here to make money from our skills but as the likes of Micah will I'm sure attest there is a difference between diligence and a fair price and rampant gouging and bare faced stupidity!
Below are three pics of the cam and, most importantly, the tappets. This sort of wear is NOT normal, or acceptable. Failing to address it s per the instructions for upgrade will result in you trashing your engine, sooner rather than later.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5704/23274350913_e74c51fe83_z.jpg)
http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?315242-Flat-Tappet-problems-on-8V-Guzzis-permed-2012&s=a770071de526c08e23337ca854278669
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Interesting.
So Vasco DG is pete roper. :boxing:
The biggest issue with the change to rollers is the increase of mass in the valve train. Having said that it seems to be a total non-issue. Earlier engines that get converted to rollers have shims inserted under the inlet valve springs to increase seating poundage and one presumes help prevent float at higher RPM. From 2015 the valve springs have been changed negating the need for the shims.
Certainly the extra mass doesn't seem to impact on performance at all . My mate Mark and I went into town to get his bike inspected for rego and I decided to give my bus a bit of a squirt across the Plains Road. I'm running one of Mark's maps with a 500 higher rev limit and I was running it up to the limiter through the gears. I realised when I hit 220kph that we'd just stuck a new tyre on Mark's bike so perhaps I shouldn't of been encouraging him to act the goat! When we got to Queanbeyan he said he'd been perplexed as he'd hit the limiter at 215 and couldn't work out why for a few seconds. Yup, he was in 5th. Tee-hee! Anyway it went 'Blurp-Blurp-Blurp!' Quite happily and nothing escaped out of the head at 8,750 so it seems the roller set-up isn't in any way limiting of performance.
And no, we don't usually ride like that on the public road but it is my high speed test track. Well surfaced, no gates or houses good visibility for wildlife etc. safe enough for a quick squirt.
Pete
http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?315242-Flat-Tappet-problems-on-8V-Guzzis-permed-2012/page2
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Its scarcely a secret Mate :grin:
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I have mentioned this before but some dealers are in denial about the issue. To me they are either lying through their teeth or are incompetent (don't know how to do the job) or the factory is telling them there is no problem with the design if the bike is maintained correctly.
All evidence now points to a design fault that will inevitably lead to failure. If there is any justice the factory should communicate this to it's dealers and authorise the replacement of the parts. But I bet there is no hope of that now.
It truly is a 15 minute job to find out if your engine has roller lifters or not. You can't go by the VIN list that was posted here a while back, at least for a '12 Norge. Mine was flat tappets according to that list, but I pulled the valve cover on the R.H. head and it is most assuredly a roller lifter engine.
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I don't know what the situation is in the UK. From what I've heard the UK importer seems to be particularly obtuse in regard to its customer base.
Pete
I have been told by Piaggio Uk that it needs to be a Guzzi dealer, that means the sole dealer in Scotland - no faith in them at all.
I have a 2012 Norge with flats, is checking them something that I could do myself - I can crab a frame and take out a gearbox etc - but would it be beyond my capabilities ?
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Perhaps Ewan McGregor could assist you in dealing with the Scottish dealer!
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I have a 2012 Norge with flats, is checking them something that I could do myself - I can crab a frame and take out a gearbox etc - but would it be beyond my capabilities ?
I suspect you can do it. The only 'tricky' part is releasing the pressure on the cam chains. And of course making 100% certain that the cams are timed properly when reinstall. Nothing magical though.
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I have a 2012 Norge with flats, is checking them something that I could do myself - I can crab a frame and take out a gearbox etc - but would it be beyond my capabilities ?
You can absolutely do it yourself -- If you can crab an engine, this is a piece of cake --
The kit for the Norge is the easiest conversion, the heads don't have to come off. Pete's directions for the procedure are great, just follow them step by step. I removed the tank and fairing. I spent more time figuring out how the fairing went back on than doing the conversion itself.
Go for it --
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Was thinking about finding a early stelvio to buy.Unless I hit the power ball,ha ha.Odds are it will still be a flat tappet.I'm able to do the conversion myself,but what can I expect with getting any warranty parts.How much should I devalue the purchase price?
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I have been told by Piaggio Uk that it needs to be a Guzzi dealer, that means the sole dealer in Scotland - no faith in them at all.
I have a 2012 Norge with flats, is checking them something that I could do myself - I can crab a frame and take out a gearbox etc - but would it be beyond my capabilities ?
Jim, have a squizz at the video I put up. It's not hard.
Pete.
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I have been told by Piaggio Uk that it needs to be a Guzzi dealer, that means the sole dealer in Scotland - no faith in them at all.
I have a 2012 Norge with flats, is checking them something that I could do myself - I can crab a frame and take out a gearbox etc - but would it be beyond my capabilities ?
The best people in the UK are Twiggers Motorcycles in Loughborough to deal with the problem. I know it's way from Scotland but once you have established you have a flat tappet motor they will be able to get the conversion done with the least amount of hassle. Worth a phone call for some free advise come what may.
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Jim, have a squizz at the video I put up. It's not hard.
Pete.
the presence of the chain, and getting it set up '100%' right is a bit scary, or am i just being a big wooze ?
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Wuss......
As long as you aren't a lawyer, you can do it.
:boozing:
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Wuss......
As long as you aren't a lawyer, you can do it.
:boozing:
How's our good solicitor doing? Haven't heard from him for a while..
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As long as you are careful you won't loose the timing. Even if you do restoring it is easy and you obviously pull the motor through by hand a couple of times to re-check and make sure nothing collides.
Pete
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Was thinking about finding a early stelvio to buy.Unless I hit the power ball,ha ha.Odds are it will still be a flat tappet.I'm able to do the conversion myself,but what can I expect with getting any warranty parts.How much should I devalue the purchase price?
Sorry missed this. It really depends on where you are. Kits vary in price depending which one is needed and it *Can* be advantageous to buy from an alternative market, (ie. Europe from the USA or the USA from Australia or NZ) but this is very dependent on pricing policies and exchange rates.
Basically though if you are looking at a flat tappet Stelvio it will most likely need a 'C' kit if it's an early model. Without going into a wordy explanation of how to cheat and do it cheaper the kit retails for about $1,600AU and at the moment the US equivalent is roughly similar. Installing a 'C' kit on an early 'Small tank' Stelvio and doing the sump clean etc. will, at a guess, be about a ten hour job. Add in oil and filter plus sump gaskets and it isn't cheap. I'd knock 2.5K off the asking price of the bike hasn't been rollerised.
Pete
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This Bulletin will most likely turn into a deal like the Hydro motor, goes on & on w/bikes out there and owners haven't a clue there is a fix cause they don't go to the dealer for work or ask the dealer about campaigns that are open on their VIN.
I don't come on this site much anymore since I parted out my race Guzzi. The SPII has been sitting with an electrical problem for nearly a decade so I ride the heaps.
It's sad to see that with new Moto Guzzis, it's the same s**t, different decade. Never thought I'd be glad I'm too poor to buy to an 8v Stelvio.
But it is nice to see that Peter Roper is still the glue that holds it all together for Guzzi people.
Thanks Pete!
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My '11 Stelvio has about 56K km. I got it with 30K at the end of '14, and am pretty sure it has not been rollerized. Last time it was serviced a couple valves were a tiny bit tight, but so far things are stable...but I know what to expect when I do look.
I am picking up my Buell Ulysses Wednesday, and will look into rollerizing the Stelvio this spring, but if the Buell works as well as I expect, I may let the next owner deal with the big girl. Even though the Stelvio is super comfy, and is just an awesome bike...it's heavy. It was fine riding to Inuvik in the gravel, but I just can't take it that far off road. I would probably be better off with a Norge, but I can see me ending up with a late model Griso instead. My LeMans will always be my Guzzi baby.
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I'll post up a couple of pics again later this morning so people like 'Lost' can see what to look for to confirm one way or another whether a machine is flat or roller. It's a very easy check, most important thing is to be careful removing the plug caps.
Pete
I appreciate the pictures, responses and explanations. I went to the other dealer in my area and he had no problem checking. I now have pictures of my valves at 11370 miles and they are showing wear. A claim has been submitted and hopefully before spring parts will be available. I would post the pictures but am unable to get them into the forum. I appreciate everyone's patience with a subject that has been discussed a lot. I am sure others new to the forum also will appreciate the heads up. Definitely worth having it checked out. Even though it will cost me money it is worth it to protect my investment.
Jim
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I just got my rollerised GRiSO back from Thousand Oaks Powersports. I only rode it the 50 miles home, but it's running better than ever. Less clatter, no more lumpy idle, and no more popping on decel. And somehow they got Piaggio to cover kit AND labor. I only paid $200 for dropping and cleaning the sump. I dealt with Alex, Brian, and Eddie. Great guys. They will be the only shop touching my GRiSO henceforth. I am very relieved to have found a great dealer shop not too far from home. :thumb:
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I just got my rollerised GRiSO back from Thousand Oaks Powersports. I only rode it the 50 miles home, but it's running better than ever. Less clatter, no more lumpy idle, and no more popping on decel. And somehow they got Piaggio to cover kit AND labor. I only paid $200 for dropping and cleaning the sump. I dealt with Alex, Brian, and Eddie. Great guys. They will be the only shop touching my GRiSO henceforth. I am very relieved to have found a great dealer shop not too far from home. :thumb:
:1: :thumb:
Great news. If they covered parts AND labor for your out of warranty bike (2011), they should be willing to do it for everyone else too. The difference between swallowing because its easier to follow the herd and standing up for yourself and what is right.
Coincidence that it was reported to NHTSA and a lot of noise made over this issue? In a pigs eye. :laugh:
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My best guess is that Piaggio is responding more to people like Pete , and some of the other dealers than they are to any Govt agency . NHTSA simply doesn't work that fast .
Dusty
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My best guess is that Piaggio is responding more to people like Pete , and some of the other dealers than they are to any Govt agency . NHTSA simply doesn't work that fast .
Dusty
Horsepoop. They are responding to people writing letters directly to the CEO, they are reposnding to people posting complaints in spite of being told to suck it up and pay for it themselves. They are responding to those who didn't sit back and just dig into their own pockets and pay for something they shouldn't. They are responding to the NHTSA complaint because it is viewable by everyone with an Internet connection.
You have no idea how fast the NHTSA works nor do you know how many people wrote letters. What we do know is that people were told, right on this forum that there was nothing that could be done.
We know that people were told to shut up and stop complaining, that it was just the way it was and that it was the price to pay for owning a Moto Guzzi.
Its all there Dusty, all of it. The mockery, telling people they were wrong, that it wasn't this or that. That everyone should just pay up and deal with it. Who said what is available to anyone that bothers to look.
Well, some didn't. Some took action and did more than just piling on anyone who complained about how MG was dealing with the problem.
That is why. Guess all you want.
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Horsepoop. They are responding to people writing letters directly to the CEO, they are reposnding to people posting complaints in spite of being told to suck it up and pay for it themselves. They are responding to those who didn't sit back and just dig into their own pockets and pay for something they shouldn't. They are responding to the NHTSA complaint because it is viewable by everyone with an Internet connection.
That is why.
Never mind , of course you are 100% correct :bow:
Dusty
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well whatever.
NP fought the good fight despite lots of naysaying. For some reason it looks like things are moving in the right direction.
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I just got my rollerised GRiSO back from Thousand Oaks Powersports. I only rode it the 50 miles home, but it's running better than ever. Less clatter, no more lumpy idle, and no more popping on decel. And somehow they got Piaggio to cover kit AND labor. I only paid $200 for dropping and cleaning the sump. I dealt with Alex, Brian, and Eddie. Great guys. They will be the only shop touching my GRiSO henceforth. I am very relieved to have found a great dealer shop not too far from home. :thumb:
Nice!