Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: canuguzzi on January 06, 2016, 11:49:44 AM
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What would it take for you to buy one? I'm asking those who might consider getting an electric bike.
The range of these electric bikes is starting to get practical for everyday commuting use. At close to 200 miles it could even be good for day trips where you aren't droning on the highways.
I think they'll get over the 200 mile endurance mark pretty soon and that puts them into the range of many bikes with a full tank of fuel. It sure can't meet the needs of the 300-500 mile per days riders but then a lot of bikes with short range fuel tanks aren't really comfortable for those distances either. They can be but I'm referring to most.
The prices are the stopper right now. At $10k+ without the extra charge cell its a lot of money for a limited range vehicle.
I'm starting to see more and more electric vehicle charging stations, even in places away from the cities.
Its just a matter of a little time before these bikes come down in price, say to the $8k level and their ranges hit 200+ miles and then I bet sales really start to move.
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/specs.php
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I love these bikes and would love one alongside the guzzi for commuting use. What puts me off is price and my own ignorance of maintaining an electric bike (I tend to do my own) although I understand they're much simpler than regular bikes.
The price would have to be around £5-6k and I'd want the replacement batteries to be capable of at least 20k miles and cost no more than £500 to replace.
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I love these bikes and would love one alongside the guzzi for commuting use. What puts me off is price and my own ignorance of maintaining an electric bike (I tend to do my own) although I understand they're much simpler than regular bikes.
The price would have to be around �5-6k and I'd want the replacement batteries to be capable of at least 20k miles and cost no more than �500 to replace.
I found this about their batteries:
150+ MI RANGE / 300,000+ MI LIFETIME
I think they are going the route of just replacing the batteries for you if they don't last for the duration expected. They state the expected life of the batteries is the expected life of the bike. That is probably why the price is so high, they know and expect to replace batteries if they fail at their cost, not the owners.
It looks like the other maintenance is the same as for any motorcycle, brakes, suspension and a belt drive which in other bikes has proven to be very reliable.
At $7-8k I'd buy one just to have for short trips and runs to the city although I would want at least a 200 mile trip endurance.
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Short trips are bad for conventional motorcycles. Electric bikes don't care.
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Those figures are impressive and I really liked the bikes when I saw them at the NEC a few months back.
Most of my usage is commuting but I do try to get at least one decent tour in each year. I can see these bikes being excellent commuters but I'm not sure about tourers as I would often aim to do more than 200 miles in a day. I recently replaced my 125cc and 2300cc bikes for one which I think is a good compromise between the two (I.e. The guzzi 750), I can see electric bikes being used alongside a conventional bike or just by commuters but we need either hydrogen fuel celled or rapid charging bikes to fill both niches in my opinion.
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battery life 300,000 miles......warranty only for 100,000...must not be too sure of the 300,000 mile figure :grin:
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If you do the math, an ebike might be cost-effective even at current prices, but it all depends on your situation. I decided in 2013 that the Brammo Empulse, at $14,000 (after rebates), would be cost-effective given 5 years of commuting (50 miles roundtrip). Being able to park in the garage and charge up at work sealed the deal in my mind.
So far, after almost 3 years, it's been great. There's two things you might not realize until you actually try this home.
1) An ebike is significantly better for commuting than a gas one. No worries, minimal fuss, no hot idling in traffic. They are quite simply better at getting from point A to point B if the distance is within their range. But . . .
2) ebikes are really not much fun to ride. At least in my opinion. Once the novelty wore off, I could find very little pleasure in pleasure-riding. Without the thrum of a motor, I'm just bored.
But I'm quite happy to have what I consider to be maybe the best commuting vehicle ever invented.
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For short trips, where you can recharge between rides, they might make some sense. However, they make no sense at all for longer trips.
I could not ride one 150 miles up I-5 to our cabin. At 70 mph, I would travel only 61 miles ($10,995) to 98 miles ($16,669 or $18,669) before running out of power. And it is not like you can stop and recharge quickly. (They take hours to recharge.) I would be stranded by the side of the road, and AAA would not come to my rescue.
On top of that, they are quite expensive, even with the 10% tax credit.
I much rather have a Moto Guzzi (or a Triumph, or a Harley Davidson, or...)
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Called them. 5 years and 100,000 miles on the bikes now, including the battery.
First non-weather miserable day, headed for the test ride. They have a short fairing in the works but maybe its time to take the plunge.
They charge tank can accept a charge as fast as the charger can deliver it.
Something in addition to the Norge, not to replace it.
Less expense and motorcycles never seem to mesh.
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Battery technology is getting better by leaps and bounds. A few years back most people sneered at electric cars. Elon Musk and Tesla have proved that it is a very viable commercial proposition. And now further battery research will undoubtedly come up with something even better. I'd even bet that HD will come up with something suitably teeth-rattling and ear-drum-piercing to replicate the HD 'experience' on an ebike.
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Tesla has a negative cash flow, and does not expect to have a positive one until 2020 - http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-04/as-tesla-gears-up-for-suv-investors-ask-where-the-profits-are (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-04/as-tesla-gears-up-for-suv-investors-ask-where-the-profits-are). If they were not being propped up with tax money, and lots of it, they would have gone bust already.
As interesting as the tech is, until the price of e-vehicles matches gas\diesel vehicles with re-fueling times that match, they just won't be taking over anytime soon - unless the government mandates them.
That said, I got to do the Harley e-bike demo ride and was impressed with the bike, just not the range, price (estimated) or re-fueling times.
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In the USA, Internal Combustion cars, trucks, and tractors only completely displaced horses & mules in the 1940s, when the internal combustion vehicles finally became cheaper to buy and maintain than horses & mules, buggies & wagons.
In the USA, Steam locomotives were replaced in the 1950s by Diesel-Electric locomotives, once the diesels became powerful enough and economical enough to replace the steam-powered locomotives.
Those changes happened because the technology and economics made it happen. On their own. No subsidies.
Electric cars and motorcycles will not be mainstream until they can beat the performance, economy, & maintenance of the existing technology. It may happen someday, but that's not today. It's not tomorrow, or next year. Without the subsidies, the electric car/bike industry wouldn't even be where it is today.
I love the idea of an electric car or motorcycle for commuting and trips to the corner store. But the economics of owning multiple vehicles for multiple jobs doesn't make sense for the broader market. Having to keep an internal combustion car or motorcycle for longer trips means that the electric ones will remain toys and curiosities, except maybe for people in large metros who don't really use a personal car for travel.
Once the electric cars and motorcycles can be driven at interstate speeds for hundreds of miles at a time, then recharged in minutes, then maybe they will be able to make an impact on the market.
Cars, trucks, farm tractors, and diesel locomotives provided huge economical advantages over their predecessors. Electric has not shown that it can provide advantages over internal combustion. It will take natural forces to do that. Either gasoline and diesel will need to get REALLY expensive, or technology will need to make electric REALLY economical. Time will tell which will be which.
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I'm in the market for a smaller displacement commuting / dual sport bike. I really like the CSC RX3. If Zero can make a motorcycle with 150 freeway mile range that can accept luggage without seriously putting a large dent into that figure, and I could afford it, I'd be all over it. The only two bikes I'm looking at right now (besides Guzzi) are ZERO and the RX3. That's all my mind wants to compliment the Jackal.
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" the economics of owning multiple vehicles for multiple jobs doesn't make sense for the broader market."
It looks to me like several of us already have multiple vehicles for multiple jobs. I know I do. But, I join with the view that the price still a bit too high (especially here in Canada) and the range a bit too short for me to get one. I'm waiting for the day, though.
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I found this about their batteries:
150+ MI RANGE / 300,000+ MI LIFETIME
Rideapart did a real world test and the range was more like 75 miles.
Then you have my real world experience with neglected li-poly batteries that need to be charged every couple of months or they deteriorate. Now you wouldn't have to replace the whole pack when that happens just a few cells or learn to live with the reduced range.
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" the economics of owning multiple vehicles for multiple jobs doesn't make sense for the broader market."
It looks to me like several of us already have multiple vehicles for multiple jobs. I know I do. But, I join with the view that the price still a bit too high (especially here in Canada) and the range a bit too short for me to get one. I'm waiting for the day, though.
I submit that we are not the "broader market". Most people in The USA do not own a garage full of motorcycles and keep two or three cars in the driveway.
By "the broader market", I mean the average person who owns one vehicle and uses it for everything. Daily commuting, grocery-getting, and for travel. For those people, electric will only be a curiosity until it's performance and economy can meet or exceed the Honda Accord, etc., that is their main mode of transport.
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Don't know, if these end up being like every battery powered drill I've owned where no matter when I use it, the batteries are dead or need replaced because they won't charge anymore, then I'll pass. If they make them with a 200 mile extension cord, then I'm in!
Jokes aside, if I had a spare 10k and they manufacture guaranteed healthy batteries for the life of the bike, then I'd be open to one. Kick starting my vespas gets old sometimes, so I'd use it for work commuting and grocery runs. I'm assuming these have electric start, right? :wink:
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Mod for sound satisfaction...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krPQ1PMM00Y
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My decision a couple of months ago to purchase a new bike came down to a V7 II or a Zero. As attractive as I find the Zero, here's why I chose the former:
1. Zero has concentrated on the sport/dual sport market and I ultimately decided that I wanted a more rounded bike that can easily take a rear rack/panniers, etc.
2. The Zero dealer network is weak and there are questions about the training of its dealers to handle diagnosis and correction of electric motorcycle problems.
3. I believe that these bikes will lose their value rapidly given the fairly impressive rate of improvement in the technology.
I would suggest that anyone considering Zero check out http://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com, especially the dedicated Zero sub-forum. You'll get a good sense of the pros and cons, including service issues. Zero is definitely trying, but the company is thin on the ground.
Had it not been for these issues, I think that I would have purchased a Zero.
P.S. Re the price, if you look at the Zero web site, they talk about a 10% Federal tax credit in the U.S. on purchasing a 2015 or 2016 bike, and a 30% tax credit on purchasing their chargers.
PPS: Zero has developed a police version (and I think has sold some), which means that they are able to produce a more laid-back version of the bike - they just haven't offered it to the public yet. The focus on sport/dual sport does make sense, given that the bikes don't have gears and torque is immediate. This two year old YouTube video, since which Zero has made significant improvements to its bikes, is fairly amusing, and goes some way to explaining why young people might find Zero bikes attractive (and look at the demographic their advertising targets): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke-3UuQycJM
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I submit that we are not the "broader market". Most people in The USA do not own a garage full of motorcycles and keep two or three cars in the driveway.
By "the broader market", I mean the average person who owns one vehicle and uses it for everything. Daily commuting, grocery-getting, and for travel. For those people, electric will only be a curiosity until it's performance and economy can meet or exceed the Honda Accord, etc., that is their main mode of transport.
Seems quite a few people own more than one vehicle and most often those vehicles are of different types. The commute car isn't the one they use for family outings or trips.
The family that has a pickup probably also has a very different vehicle as well and they use it for most errands and the daily back and forth to work.
I do see this as regional. Get close to a major metro area and you'll see a lot of electric cars on the road. Some of the new electric cars look just like other cars, not the orthopedic shoe looking things of the past years. Nowadays an electric car can pull up alongside you at t a stoplight and unless you see the badging you wouldn't know it from most of the other economy cars.
If your usual daily travel distances are long you won't see electrics but lots of people live near cities and in urban areas within the range of current electric vehicles.
Is an electric motorcycle the one bike for all uses thing? Hardly but then what bike really is? You could ride a V7 across the country but there are better choices. The Norge can get me to the store a few miles away but if there is something that could be a jump on ride over that was smaller and lighter, you bet.
I see electric vehicles as add-on vehicles. They can take care of a lot of use cases and for other needs you can use the truck, the SUV or the larger sedan. If the daily commutes are within the range of an electric, using a gas powered car really doesn't provide a benefit over the electric.
The cost? Enough people are paying upwards of $40,000 for pickups that get driven less than the commute cars they have, some bucks for an electric car isn't really going to be the sticking point. Tesla is selling all it can make, easily a $100k for one of them.
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Lots of people could make good use of an electric motorcycle, but first they would have to come around to the idea of riding a motorcycle, period. This is where I think ebikes have a potential for a big breakthrough, because they are much easier (no shifting) and less intimidating than a gas bike, it's much easier for the average person to start riding one. The Empulse, with gearbox and chain, is more of a motorcyclists' ebike. The Zero, with one gear and a belt, has more potential to be the first motorcycle for the person who maybe never seriously considered owning one.
California with its mild climate and relatively liberal politics (subsidies) is the perfect breeding ground. The Zero has enough range for most LA or Bay Area commutes. Just think of how much better the LA freeways would be if 10% of folks driving cars alone would get on an ebike. And if you want to talk cost-effectiveness, what would those people pay to have an hour more of their day because they can lane split? Of course, you can lane split on any bike, but that gets back to my point of the ebike drawing in new riders who aren't ready for a gas bike.
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My decision a couple of months ago to purchase a new bike came down to a V7 II or a Zero. As attractive as I find the Zero, here's why I chose the former:
1. Zero has concentrated on the sport/dual sport market and I ultimately decided that I wanted a more rounded bike that can easily take a rear rack/panniers, etc.
2. The Zero dealer network is weak and there are questions about the training of its dealers to handle diagnosis and correction of electric motorcycle problems.
3. I believe that these bikes will lose their value rapidly given the fairly impressive rate of improvement in the technology.
I would suggest that anyone considering Zero check out http://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com, especially the dedicated Zero sub-forum. You'll get a good sense of the pros and cons, including service issues. Zero is definitely trying, but the company is thin on the ground.
Had it not been for these issues, I think that I would have purchased a Zero.
P.S. Re the price, if you look at the Zero web site, they talk about a 10% Federal tax credit in the U.S. on purchasing a 2015 or 2016 bike, and a 30% tax credit on purchasing their chargers.
PPS: Zero has developed a police version (and I think has sold some), which means that they are able to produce a more laid-back version of the bike - they just haven't offered it to the public yet. The focus on sport/dual sport does make sense, given that the bikes don't have gears and torque is immediate. This two year old YouTube video, since which Zero has made significant improvements to its bikes, is fairly amusing, and goes some way to explaining why young people might find Zero bikes attractive (and look at the demographic their advertising targets): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke-3UuQycJM
What were your impressions of riding it? Which model(s) did you try?
They do have panniers and top cases for the new models (2016) Those 2016 models look like other standard naked bikes.
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=7
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Around where I live 20-80 miles round trip commutes are very common which would seem perfect for an e-bike. Seriously, there is a stiff up front cost currently but almost no energy cost to you and think of all the money saved over say five years on no oil changes, other fluid changes, no valves to set, no starter motor. I think it might just pay off and in the not to distant future I am sure that it will. Gas is not going to stay around $2 a gallon forever. If the middle east continue to hiccup it might be going up a lot shortly.
GliderJohn
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For a dedicated commuter - were the basic bike and its cells costs to offset proposed fuel and buy-in for a similarly performing and presenting bike - I guess I get it.
It's probably still gonna be a novelty if one were to realistically consider a true commuter, internal combustion engined, conventional motorcycle. How cheap does the Zero need to sell at before it effectively competes with a 70+MPG commuter? The difference in buy-in cost and extra/replacement cells buys a lot of gas for a commuter bike.
As far as sporting around on it - their own projections show dramatically diminished range with spirited riding.
Still - I look forward to these being a practical consideration for folks like me. I'm in no way opposed to the concept and quite the opposite, would like one were it financially and functionally practical.
Todd.
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I think it's the obligation of folks like me, who have been doing the ebike commuting thing for awhile, to get on our soapbox and proclaim that it's a really f-ing great feeling to float in to work on a magic carpet ride every day. This is a factor that does not show up on paper. It's psychological and intangible, and it's something you realize only by doing it for awhile. So even if commuting on an ebike costs somewhat more, to me it's still worth it.
But actually it doesn't cost more. Not for me. But that's going to vary for everybody.
None of above has made the gas bike occupy a place any less close to my heart. My gas bike and my ebike sit side by side in my garage. Both have two wheels, a motor, brakes, etc. . . and yet they could hardly be more different in terms of what they mean to me.
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What were your impressions of riding it? Which model(s) did you try?
They do have panniers and top cases for the new models (2016) Those 2016 models look like other standard naked bikes.
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=7
I tried an FX. It was a blast.
If one actually prices out an FX against something like a V7 II, it kind of blows a hole in the argument that Zeros are too expensive. My bigger concerns were depreciation and support. If I lived in California, the latter might not have been an issue. Re top boxes and panniers, it can be done, but I think it's a bit like trying to force a square peg into a round hole.
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For me to even remotely consider a E-bike:
1. Recharging stations are as plentiful as gas stations.
2. I can recharge the battery in the same amount of time it takes to pump 5 gallons of fuel.
3. I have a 250 mile range.
Even then I don't think I'd really like an E-bike. In all fairness there is not one modern internal combustion engine powered motorcycle than even tickles my fancy.
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For me to even remotely consider a E-bike:
1. Recharging stations are as plentiful as gas stations.
2. I can recharge the battery in the same amount of time it takes to pump 5 gallons of fuel.
3. I have a 250 mile range.
I'd love to have one that met those requirements, but I could ease up on the charging stuff. For commuting to work, you could presumably plug in to charge when you got there, and have most of a day to charge back up, even if you made a short trip to lunch. I used to have 12 to 25 mile each-way commutes, and the current Zero would have worked great. I'd think it could handle even 50 mile each-way commutes fine in its present form.
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Electric motorcycles have less and less distance per charge as the battery wears out. The achievable trip per full charge degrades over time until it reaches a point where the battery must be replaced to achieve a pragmatic distance again. It's like what I see on my laptop battery. I get long use between charges with a new battery but within a year or two, the length of time nearly halves, until the battery is used up.
On the other hand, fuel powered motorcycles (not just gas but alternatives such as ethanol, methanol, propane) don't present a degrading use scheme. They get roughly the same distance per fill-up, whether the bike is new or well used (assuming it's maintained). The potential of the fuel source is a constant throughout the life of the motorcycle, unlike the electric which has a fuel source with diminishing potential throughout the life of the motorcycle.
The battery technology has yet to improve to maintain longevity on par with a liquid fuel based vehicle.
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Here: http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/sr.php
Panniers and top box made by Givi. Seems it would work and look like most other bikes these days.
Maintenance on the Zero is probably close to zero.
Prices for used Guzzis of recent manufacture aren't very good. I'm lucky, within 50-100 miles there are 2 dealers, both with good Guzzi techs and service. From reading this forum, dealership support isn't a strong point for MG bikes though.
I agree 100% as a Zero not being an only bike if that is what have to go with, I wouldn't either, the limits are too much to be an all around bike. As a commuter or second bike for around town and errands though, the cost of running it + maintenance and service for a 70 mpg commuter bike is around $1200 a year, in three years, that is half the price of the bike and easily equal to what the Zero costs.
1470 miles per month for a 35 mile one way commute
oil/filter change every quarter (about 30 on the cheap side))
Service semi annually (200-400 yearly)
fuel costs - 252 gallons per year @ $756 (out here, $3 a gallon and that is going up)
Other than a component failure which would be covered by the 5 year 100k mile warranty, the Zero would need only electric and lots of parking garages have charging stations. Anything else the Zero would need, so would any other bike so it's a wash there.
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Electric motorcycles have less and less distance per charge as the battery wears out. The achievable trip per full charge degrades over time until it reaches a point where the battery must be replaced to achieve a pragmatic distance again.
There has been no detectable loss of range in my Empulse in 2.5 years of use. Of course it must have lost something, battery capacity only goes in one direction. But it's below my ability to detect. So in theory you're correct but in practice it seems like the battery is going to be more robust than just about everything else on the bike.
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I didn't mind the price, I really, really wanted one and I really, really wanted the quietness for my rides but my typical ride is 120 - 200+ miles and I don't commute so for me the only issue is range. I would need to be confident that I could go 300 miles either with extra batteries that I could carry with me or with the ability to recharge during a "lunch" break (say within 45-60 min). They are close, perhaps another two or three years.
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When I spoke to their rep, the issue that came up was the chargers. The battery technology is there but the chargers haven't kept up so adding more battery capacity doesn't work if the charging times are much longer.
I see the point, if you had a 300-400 mile range but it takes longer than the available non running time to charge it, it doesn't make sense. You could buy extra battery modules but that is a very expensive way to go.
They donhave the very fast charger system coming out this spring so you could charge during lunch and extend the practical day to day range to exceed about 250 miles easily.
I'm with you on the quiet part. The less exhaust noise the better and none is OK.
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These look to be very interesting bikes. It is amazing how quickly the technology has advanced in a few short years. This is the first 'new' bike that I find interesting in a very long time. For city riding I think this would be a great option.
I am not about to dive in to purchasing an electric car, yet, but what Tesla has done to bring the eclectic car to the forefront is admirable. Yes Tesla is subsidized but all new radical technologies / infrastructure requires government stimulus to get the ball moving. Governments handed out huge amounts of cash, land and royalties to the railways at the dawn of rail travel. Governments poured billions into highway systems, airports, canals and ports, aerospace, communications. One of the biggest benefactors of government money is the petroleum industry. I would like to know how much western governments spend keeping order and propping up despots to keep the oil flowing. I see Tesla as a springboard for a radical change in the automotive and energy business. If North Americans get behind the technology it could be a game changer or we ignore the opportunity and the Chinese will grab the initiative and in ten years we will be buying our electric cars from them.
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^ Yes. One way or another, electric vehicles are going to keep getting built and evolving and the opportunities are here now. Someone will make the huge push.
There was cash for clunkers of all things so the subsidies for electric motorcycles seem ok. I don't see E-Motorcycles as being a thing only for the very well do to as is true of the Tesla, some of Zero's models are close to the price range of some basic or entry motorcycles.
Also note that electric motorcycles have come down in price for some models, gas fueled bikes haven't come down in price for a long time. Gasoline too, will eventually go back up in price and when it does, there will be some tidy profits to make up and no one is going to leave that on the table.
E-Motorcycles are just another type of bike for us. Choices are good.
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I think that some of you are too focused on range. Either the range works or it doesn't.
If it does, the questions are price, depreciation and support.
The other key question is fun. That's totally subjective. People for whom the sound and feel of a traditional engine is important won't like these bikes. People who like the idea of immediate and highly responsive torque, and can live without noise, heat, vibration and engine maintenance, will love a Zero. Forget commuting - if you're 16 to 24 and into dirt bikes, a Zero seems to be pretty much a no-brainer - which is of course Zero's target market.
As for price, I believe that it is actually pretty competitive. I priced a Zero against a V7 II and a Triumph Street Triple, and concluded that it was pretty much a wash.
Re support, I'd be OK if I was in California or had a dealer who was seriously supportive of the technology. In New York City, where I am, Zero has had problems identifying a dealer that will support the bikes in a serious way. It's important to understand that mechanics trained to support traditional bikes are not trained to support electric bikes.
Concern, or not, about loss of value depends on one's financial situation. For me, I have the distinct feeling, having followed electric bike developments for some time, that selling a five year old electric bike is like selling a five year old computer, only worse due to rapid developments in electronic vehicles. Given my economic situation, this is a real issue for me. May not be for you.
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In the USA, Internal Combustion cars, trucks, and tractors only completely displaced horses & mules in the 1940s, when the internal combustion vehicles finally became cheaper to buy and maintain than horses & mules, buggies & wagons.
In the USA, Steam locomotives were replaced in the 1950s by Diesel-Electric locomotives, once the diesels became powerful enough and economical enough to replace the steam-powered locomotives.
Those changes happened because the technology and economics made it happen. On their own. No subsidies.
No subsidies? Not quite true. Beginning around 1912, in the effort to provide lots of oil to drive warships (ours and Britain's), Congress created generous subsidies for oil drilling. Those subsidies are still in place and have made gasoline and diesel significantly cheaper than they would have been otherwise. That accelerated the replacement of horses and coal-fired steam by years. It's also true that government support for road improvement accelerated both transitions. Don't get me started on stealing land from the Indians and giving it to railroad companies as the driver for building railroads in the first place.
Fact is that most technology-infrastructure changes depend at the beginning on significant government subsidies. Until the advent of the 707, airlines depended on airmail contracts and anti-competitive regulation to maintain thin profitability, not to mention that all their product R&D was covered by the military and NACA. Internet started as a computer communication between government labs. The privately owned electric grid still depends on government-mandated, profit-guaranteed monopolies. Development of nuclear power was ENTIRELY paid for by taxpayers.
Don't single out electric transportation for scorn.
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I may well go electric for my retirement car, as I'd be able to use it for short hops without regard to warmup, no oil change, no transmission, on and on. Maybe a bike too but not as a tourer-not yet.
I expect electric and self driving plus ride service to be a big deal by the time I'm 80, maybe sooner. A lot of older folks will become independent-and maybe the delivery of groceries and meds will be revolutionized too. There sure are a lot of us geezer wannabees in the wings..
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Don't single out electric transportation for scorn.
Not scorning it. Just saying that electric vehicles are a long way from being competitive with the internal combustion kind.
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I'd love a good electric bike, and car for that matter. But, right now they are very limited, as some have pointed out. Would still be good for short commutes.
FYI, a lot of information people have about the batteries and their performance is wrong. The newer ones charge fairly fast if the available power and proper charger are used. Typically this means a special charging station, not just a 110V outlet. 220V at least and 30-50A. 1-2hr charge times are easily done with current technology and will get better.
Current batteries do not lose much capacity over time these days, and the curve is more flat than linear downward. Typical is to have over 90% capacity available right up until failure. Many of these batteries will last for many years, even in daily use.
Overall cost is a fuel vs battery thing. How much does the fuel cost over the ownership period vs how much does a battery pack replacement cost. Not there yet, IMHO.
Technology is gaining rapidly. As others pointed out a bike bought now will be eclipsed in technology in just a few years, making it's resale value near zero.
What should be happening is a standardization of the battery pack voltage and physical dimensions/connections. Then you could buy a vehicle now and in 5 years get a "modern" pack to replace it. The 'bonus' to this might be a battery swap stations instead of charging stations. Stop at the station, swap discharged battery for charged one, pay small fee, and go. But, right now too many companies want to make themselves the "one to follow" instead of being compatible.
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Overall cost is a fuel vs battery thing. How much does the fuel cost over the ownership period vs how much does a battery pack replacement cost. Not there yet, IMHO.
don't forget the cost of the electricity used to recharge the battery over its life.
What should be happening is a standardization of the battery pack voltage and physical dimensions/connections. Then you could buy a vehicle now and in 5 years get a "modern" pack to replace it. The 'bonus' to this might be a battery swap stations instead of charging stations. Stop at the station, swap discharged battery for charged one, pay small fee, and go. But, right now too many companies want to make themselves the "one to follow" instead of being compatible.
If there was a rack of exchange batteries at the gas station, next to the rack of exchange LP gas tanks, that would be pretty cool.
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The 'bonus' to this might be a battery swap stations instead of charging stations. Stop at the station, swap discharged battery for charged one, pay small fee, and go.
Problem with this is the low specific energy of the batteries. That is, energy content per pound. If the bike does 6 miles per kWh, it can go about 100 miles on a 200-lb battery -- more like on four 50-lb batteries. Practically speaking, you might be able to replace them one unit at a time, getting half a mile of range for every pound of battery you lift into the bike.
At some point we'll have "flow" batteries, in which you drain the discharged battery fluid and top off with fully-charged fluid. Then recharging will be very much filling up with gasoline (except for the extra step of draining). That would dramatically affect the design of the bike, of course. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery)
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I did a test ride on the Empulse a couple of months ago, since Victory bought Brammo.
The overall size of the motorcycle was tiny, I was quite surprised at how small it was.
Unlike the Zero, the Empulse uses a multi-speed transmission. I think it was a 6 speed but we were advised not to start out in first and to leave it in second or third (can't remember which).
The ride itself was unremarkable other for the silence, I was surrounded by big Victory cruisers on this ride so I had plenty of aural stimulation. It was difficult to get used to not pulling in the clutch lever when coming to a stop, since the motor doesn't run at idle the clutch is not needed.
At first I thought an electric motorcycle with a clutch and transmission would be a bonus. In reality I found it not to be useful for the short ride I was on. Not only was a 6-speed transmission not necessary, the bike I rode did not have a slick shifting transmission and it felt more like a chore to shift than anything else. My take on the transmission was that the bike could do with 4 fewer gears, a high and a low for highway and city would be great.
I came suitably impressed, enough so that I went to the Victory website to see how these are priced. I assumed that now Victory was in charge the cost would have gone down. I was mistaken. Base price on the Empulse was $20k.
At the moment I drive a plug-in hybrid. I have solar on my house which gives me a net positive charge, I make more power than I use in a year. If I worked in town I would be seriously interested in an electric motorcycle, or electric car, but alas at the moment I don't and the only electric vehicle that could cover my commute is a Tesla. I don't make that sort of money.
I hope for costs to come down, at some point these will be viable for me and I have no problems with driving one. I don't expect an electric vehicle to charge at the speed a gas tank can be filled. Quick charging is harsh for the battery so on my car I use the slowest, and cheapest, level of charging with the regular 110 volt plug. 90% of my riding is probably within the capability of the electric bikes being offered right now. I have 3 motorcycles in my fleet, it would be easy enough to replace one of those with an electric version and then just use them for different purposes, sort of like I do now anyway.
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At some point we'll have "flow" batteries, in which you drain the discharged battery fluid and top off with fully-charged fluid. Then recharging will be very much filling up with gasoline (except for the extra step of draining). That would dramatically affect the design of the bike, of course. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery)
Interesting. That would be what electric needs to get seriously into the game.
Electric already has internal combustion beat on maintenance, something internal combustion had over livestock and steam.
If a person could pull into a station and drain/add pre-charged electrolyte affordably, that would be revolutionary. Electric being able to be "refueled" at existing infrastructure that supports internal combustion would be a win-win for everyone involved.
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Interesting facts I notice about electric vehicles.
Size to power Electric motors are more powerful than anything except a rocket. (the size weight problem comes around lugging batteries)
Electric tech centres about making batteries more efficient - the more efficient a battery is made the lower its internal resistance, the lower its internal resistance the more power it can produce.
considering internal combustion, more fuel efficiency means lethargic and slow.
in the electric world high efficiency means more range, more economy, more speed and more acceleration. not all at same time but its win, win, win, win.
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I imagine a future Electric bike looking something like a Guzzi Callifonia with air cooled batteries.
pull into the E-station grab the pull handle one one of the battery heads, twist turn, lift and plug it into the used battery slot in the E-station. Dispenser turns its battery wheel a few degrees and a freshly charged battery appears in place of your depleted one. Lift that one out. Plug in, push, turn and click ready to go again.
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"flow" batteries. Kinda like fuel cells. Always liked them. Easy to make hydrogen. Refill like propane (only more explosive :) ). Hard to store it.
A guy here in this area worked for Sandia. Just for fun he put a fuel cell and electric motors in a Corvette (C3). Worked like a charm, but, he could only drive 100mi from home since no one has a filling station.
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I rode one and was very impressed with the power and just the purity of riding a bike where all you have to worry about is the throttle. I would buy one tomorrow but for a few issues
1. too expensive still, yes the cost of ownership and operation is significantly lower than any gas bike, but...
2. Range is still a bit short. That wouldn't be an issue in of itself except that the bike really won't charge quickly. I would't be able to commute to work and then come home, eat breakfast and go anywhere. It takes 8 hours to charge from a regular socket, less if you daisy-chain their high power chargers, but still a dealbreaker. If it had something like a 300 mile range I would take the plunge.
In the end, I know I'll get an electric bike someday, but there is a technology leap that needs to happen first, or rapid chargers need to become available.
Also, 300,000 miles is when the battery drops to 80% capacity. Zero is VERY responsive and active in getting you test rides, I suggest you try it just for fun.
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Zero has a new charge tank due out this spring which allows you to use the fast car chargers in garages and charge locations, going to a long lunch for a significant charge recovery.
I agree, a 300 mile endurance puts an electric motorcycle into the realm of daily and even weekend riding use. A 250 mile day with some reserve is easily a good days worth if casual non-hard core riding for a non touring type motorcycle.
The lack of an ST or ADV fairing option is what stops me from running down to just buy one. It could be an abbreviated style like on the Versus or the BMW 800s, once you get used to fairing protection its hard to go back to a naked bike.
Maybe the fairing would even clean up the aerodynamics to offset the additional weight, especially at higher speeds.
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I have been amazed at how the technology has improved at the Isle of Man zero bike race that they have. I saw an interview with Bruce Anstey and he was expressing how torquey and fast they were. Considering that the riders get very little practice time on them their times are now very fast, and appear to be getting faster each year.
As far as the batteries go, I am interested to see if the aluminium/graphite batteries can get up to being competitive as far as capacity goes. Weight and charging rates are certainly very good.
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Zero might be the bike to buy for your average guy...
But the Lightning LS-218... Dear God I want one of those. 200HP, 168 ft lbs of torque...
Everyone who rides one nearly craps their pants when they go anywhere near the throttle, that would be worth every penny to blow away all the gas bikes and electric naysayers. It's interesting how much most people hate on electric bikes when most of them have never ridden one before. I'd like to see MotoGP let electric bikes compete directly against the gas bikes and see who comes out on top.
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Zero might be the bike to buy for your average guy...
But the Lightning LS-218... Dear God I want one of those. 200HP, 168 ft lbs of torque...
Everyone who rides one nearly craps their pants when they go anywhere near the throttle, that would be worth every penny to blow away all the gas bikes and electric naysayers. It's interesting how much most people hate on electric bikes when most of them have never ridden one before. I'd like to see MotoGP let electric bikes compete directly against the gas bikes and see who comes out on top.
Their shop is in San Carlos. Sounds like a side trip as I figure out what to do while waiting for the Norge service to finish :wink: direct bus service and train service there.
That bike seems amazing not just from straight line performance but range as well. I winder what a lesser performance motor would draw from the same batteries and what that might do to extending the range? Surely 150hp or even 125 HP would be more than enough.
I see really fast chargers around the corner and when that happens with bikes like the Zero where you can swap out batteries, the market for them will explode, much faster than the e-car industry.
You won't get vibration but if anyone needs that they could strap some lead weights to the wheels and get that too. :grin:
The power and performance of superbikes has reach some plateau is sorts and even other motorcycle genres are reaching for more than pure engine performance, with current technologies how much room is left for that to go much higher? We see the emphasis on electronics, traction and suspension controls and so on. Now we have the e-bike that opens up a whole new type for manufacturers to explore.
There are a lot of benefits. Instead of off-road bikes making a racket as they run through forests and rec areas, thing could get a lot quieter and that is a good thing. One of the things people complain about with motorcycles is how loud many of them are. E-bikes offer a great solution.
While being able to pack two up and head out for cross country tours isn't yet practical on an e-bike, it probably isn't as far off as we might think. It might take more planning but within a few years it should be possible.
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Doesn't seem all that practical to me except as a commuter or short range bike. The 200 miles is only city driving with the most expensive model at $16,669.00. That model only gets a 98 mile range at 70 and 131 combined. Totally inadequate for any kind of touring or even a decent day ride.
Haven't ridden an electric bike but have driven a Tesla and know the joy of all that torque at any speed. could see owning one if I had a shorter commute.
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A lot of people only ride a 100 miles or so on a weekend, often less given the average milage on a lot of bikes.
Take a trip into the city, say 45 miles. Get there, plug into a fast charger and go have lunch with friends, afterwards pick up somethings you need and head back the long way along the coast, say 80 mikes. A nice easy day.
On the weekend if weekend riding is the thing, with the extra battery option, a run out to the coast, some river roads, atop for lunch, plug in there (just gotta ask) and head out again. Get back after maybe 120 miles.
Not everyone rides endless hours or tours. For long range touring, well, that is why you have more than one bike. I wouldn't take an economy car on a long trip either, use the right vehicle for the trip.
For more people than not, motorcycles in general are not practical. For bow, electric motorcycles can't meet the needs of a lot of those who want long distance tourers or who ride hundreds of miles per day every day. As a second bike, they can be practical if ever having more than one motorcycle could be considered being practical.
Given that some cars can get much better fuel economy than my Norge, carry far more, have heaters and other creature comforts, it is anblast to ride but practical? Not really.
In a few short years, electric motorcycles are going to become very good sellers.
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Right now, I have the Guzzi for touring, the BMW for day trips into the mountains and pottering around town, and the scooter for grocery runs and popping over to the hardware store. A competent electric bike could easily replace the Beemer and the scoot. If I were still working, an electric bike would be my commuter. In fact when I worked five miles from home, when I didn't feel up to using the bicycle, I commuted on this:
(https://solartoday.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/yamavolt-010.jpg)
That's a 48-volt golf cart motor with lead acid batteries, in a Yamaha frame. It weighs a manageable 210 lb. It's still sitting in the garage and some day I might put lithium batteries in it, when they are cheaper.
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Seth :thumb:
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In fact when I worked five miles from home, when I didn't feel up to using the bicycle, I commuted on this:
(https://solartoday.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/yamavolt-010.jpg)
That's a 48-volt golf cart motor with lead acid batteries, in a Yamaha frame. It weighs a manageable 210 lb. It's still sitting in the garage and some day I might put lithium batteries in it, when they are cheaper.
That is so neat!
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Right now, I have the Guzzi for touring, the BMW for day trips into the mountains and pottering around town, and the scooter for grocery runs and popping over to the hardware store. A competent electric bike could easily replace the Beemer and the scoot. If I were still working, an electric bike would be my commuter. In fact when I worked five miles from home, when I didn't feel up to using the bicycle, I commuted on this:
(https://solartoday.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/yamavolt-010.jpg)
That's a 48-volt golf cart motor with lead acid batteries, in a Yamaha frame. It weighs a manageable 210 lb. It's still sitting in the garage and some day I might put lithium batteries in it, when they are cheaper.
With lithium batteries how much weight do you think it would save, maybe 50 pounds? I bet it would be really quick.
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That's a great project bike. Nice job. How far would that get you on a full charge?
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Don't need to save overall weight. What I want is to increase range -- to maybe 30 miles on 60 lb of batteries, instead of 12 miles on 50 lb.
The really quick electric bikes run at much higher voltages -- 72 to 150 and higher. At 48 volts, 300 amps is only 19 hp, so the bike accelerates briskly but won't exactly spin a wheel. I never turned the throttle that far anyway -- I accelerated with traffic which probably means 100-amp starts. Ridden hard, the range on this thing might be only six or eight miles.
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(https://solartoday.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/yamavolt-010.jpg)
That is righteously cool but, needs a headlight.
I think the anachronism of a carbide headlamp would so rock on that one.
(http://www.legendaryauctions.com/ItemImages/000052/43016b_med.jpeg)
Todd.
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If you look closely at the left clip-on, you'll see an LED bicycle headlamp. But a carbide light (or acetylene!) would be cool.
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Never rode one but I imagine the experience is like riding a bike without having to pedal, only faster....no thanks.
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Seth, what kind of speed and range did you have on that bike?
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That bike seems amazing not just from straight line performance but range as well. I winder what a lesser performance motor would draw from the same batteries and what that might do to extending the range? Surely 150hp or even 125 HP would be more than enough.
Using a smaller motor wouldn't automatically increase range. The efficiency of the motors doesn't change much with size, within that power range. The power output is mostly a function of the motor controller, so programming it for a maximum of 125 hp would do what you're suggesting, and increase range a little, assuming the rider would occasionally use the maximum controller output. Another way would be for the rider to avoid using full power.
I have a sort of deck boat I built a few years ago, with an outboard motor I converted to electric. The motor itself is capable of around 20 hp, but in that boat, anything more than about four or five hp just makes a bigger wake without gaining any significant speed. So I programmed the controller for a 4 hp maximum, and have decent range.
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I think they'll get over the 200 mile endurance mark pretty soon and that puts them into the range of many bikes with a full tank of fuel.
......
I'm starting to see more and more electric vehicle charging stations, even in places away from the cities.
The difference is a small fuel tank can be refilled in minutes. Your riding buddies aren't going to wait the 3-6 hours it takes for your bike to charge.
Short trips are bad for conventional motorcycles. Electric bikes don't care.
For this reason, if they were a lot less money, I'd love ot have one for running errands. For now, I use a Vepsa 250 for that. It's 250cc water cooled motor gets up to operating temp pretty quickly.
I think electric bikes will be great commuting vehicles though.
As for maintenance, tires, brakes, and periodic belt replacement or chain maintenance.
Considering that many people don't have the skills for an oil change, much less a valve adjustment, the lower servicing costs of an electric bike may make the higher price worth it to those who can't or won't do their own work. This is, provided that the range fits their use.
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Electric cars and motorcycles will not be mainstream until they can beat the performance, economy, & maintenance of the existing technology. It may happen someday, but that's not today. It's not tomorrow, or next year. Without the subsidies, the electric car/bike industry wouldn't even be where it is today.
I love the idea of an electric car or motorcycle for commuting and trips to the corner store. But the economics of owning multiple vehicles for multiple jobs doesn't make sense for the broader market. Having to keep an internal combustion car or motorcycle for longer trips means that the electric ones will remain toys and curiosities, except maybe for people in large metros who don't really use a personal car for travel.
I think for your typical two-car (or truck, or SUV, etc) household one electric, and one internal combustion (or hybrid) vehicle makes a lot of sense. Even the meager range of the first generation Nissan Leaf would be good enough for my 30 mile round trip commute, and of course for my wife's 16 mile round trip commute. It would be a much better advantage on her commute, as she has a lot of stop and go, where electrics and hybrids benefit form regenerative braking. By only having one all-electric, and one ICE vehicle, there is still one ICE vehicle for when the range is needed.
Plug-in hybrids like the Chevy Volt are a good compromise, since they could do up to a 40 mile commute all week long without even starting the IC engine, but, yet have the convenience of topping off the fuel tank quickly on road trips.
I do think that governments will continue to subsidize electric vehicles, and even penalize ICE vehicles (using the additional taxes and fees to pay the EV subsidies). They have too, and because there are no real short term monetary benefits to EV's, the changeover won't happen without them. Climate change and real. Changing a large portion of vehicles to EV's will allow more use of renewable energy to be used for transportation.
I think another huge potential for utilization of renewable energy would be to shift long distance freight back to rail from trucks. Electric rail is mature technology, and doesn't require batteries, and all the environmental impacts of the manufacturing, and eventual recycling and disposal of them. Plus, releiving our highways of a major portion of the heavy truck traffic would save them a lot of wear and tear.
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Seth, what kind of speed and range did you have on that bike?
Mike, the rpm limit of the motor limits me to 60mph with this gearing. And the batteries carry only 18 amp-hours, so range is just 12 miles in normal 30mph traffic (60 mph gets me about 4 miles).
Specs and build process here: http://www.evalbum.com/2076 This is a pretty cool website. Poke around and you'll find some neat conversions, many done dirt cheap (cheap means low range, though). For instance: http://www.evalbum.com/5125
The most practical cheap EVs these days are the mass-produced electric scooters from China. 35 mph and up to 50 mile range for local errands and short commutes. Performance equivalent to a 50cc 2-stroke.
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The difference is a small fuel tank can be refilled in minutes. Your riding buddies aren't going to wait the 3-6 hours it takes for your bike to charge.
For this reason, if they were a lot less money, I'd love ot have one for running errands. For now, I use a Vepsa 250 for that. It's 250cc water cooled motor gets up to operating temp pretty quickly.
I think electric bikes will be great commuting vehicles though.
As for maintenance, tires, brakes, and periodic belt replacement or chain maintenance.
Considering that many people don't have the skills for an oil change, much less a valve adjustment, the lower servicing costs of an electric bike may make the higher price worth it to those who can't or won't do their own work. This is, provided that the range fits their use.
True, groups might not wait 3-6 hours but according to recent threads on the topic, most Guzzi riders prefer to ride alone anyway.
The rep at Zero for example, said that the biggest hurdle they face is not battery capacity, they have space for extra batteries and even without getting into the 500 pound weight class, could make a bike with far more range. As you pointed out, charging is the issue but in the near future, what happened with battery density will happen with chargers.
In other words, the super fast chargers are around the corner and recharge times will go from hours to minutes. Even a 30 minute charge time is probably manageable. Ride for 200 miles and then a lot of people are ready for a break anyway.
Right now they could make a 300 mile e-bike but since the charging times are longer there isn't much benefit. New fast chargers will solve that. Still, just heading out for a 1000 mile tour wouldn't be easy unless you broke it up into 250 mile chunks. The question is, does that work or is the long haul rides the primary style of riding you do?
For some, electric bikes might not ever fill their needs. Nothing wrong with that.
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In other words, the super fast chargers are around the corner and recharge times will go from hours to minutes. Even a 30 minute charge time is probably manageable. Ride for 200 miles and then a lot of people are ready for a break anyway.
Charge time has a lot to do with battery chemistry, and how quickly a battery can take a charge without degrading it.
Right now they could make a 300 mile e-bike but since the charging times are longer there isn't much benefit. New fast chargers will solve that. Still, just heading out for a 1000 mile tour wouldn't be easy unless you broke it up into 250 mile chunks. The question is, does that work or is the long haul rides the primary style of riding you do?
300 mile range would definitely be a benefit, even if the charging time is longer. You could then easily ride a 250 mile day with reserve without having to charge. Plus, you could do a partial charge along the way, for the same period of time as a shorter range E-bike to get the same extension of range.
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If anyone is interested, Aerostich is currently doing a winter riding test of the Zero along with some of their gear ...
http://www.aerostich.com/zbz (http://www.aerostich.com/zbz)
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Tesla has a negative cash flow, and does not expect to have a positive one until 2020 - If they were not being propped up with tax money, and lots of it, they would have gone bust already.
hmm sounds like the aerospace, medical research/pharma, and mining/oil drilling industries