Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tom H on January 17, 2016, 03:23:12 PM
-
The bike is a 2004 hydro with updates and with a build date of 2002 and no Lambda sensor.
Well after a bit of messing with the TB's with the 15RC ECU, with Lambda turned off, the bike was running fairly well. Idle was still a bit inconsistent and still had a flat spot at 4000 5th gear on the freeway. Flat spot was a soft roll on and it felt flat, with a decent twist it picked right up.
Found a supposedly new 15M locally that I could easily return if it didn't help or didn't work. Well it works great for the most part. When I started the bike it was idling at 1500 aprox. from the original 900 aprox. when it warmed after a few minutes it was still at 1500. Backed of the non-TPS TB stop and had a decent idle at 1000 aprox.
So I hooked up Guzzidiag and my balancing gauges to re-set the TB's evenly. Disconnected the TPS side TB linkage, backed off the non-TPS TB stop screw and closed both air bypass screws. And yes the "choke" screw was backed off.
Per guzzidiag my TPS voltage is .529 at stop (which agreed with the value it read after setting the TPS with a multi-meter, meter was about .520 I think, it's written down) . Then adjusted the non-TPS side stop until aprox 900 rpm was reached. Adjusted the air bypass screws and now have a very consistent warm idle of 1000 aprox. Also there is NO flat spot at 4000, nice and smooth and no slight bucking feel at under 30mph in 2nd through the neighborhood. The backfire/pop is gone as well during deceleration.
Now I still have a few things to figure out:
1: I think the 15RC stepped up the idle at start up, then came down after a few moments. The 15M does not do this. It cold idles at about 600-700 without the "choke", once warmed a few minutes it's at 1000. Normal for a 15M??
2: Maybe this is a read error with Guzzidiag. At the 1000 idle, it is showing about 20-30 deg advance on the timing. It varies. Bring the throttle up to lets say 1500, the timing comes back down (need to look at the number again) then advances much like my Eldo curve. Normal for 15M?? Sounds fine idling though, nice and smooth.
3: The bike runs great except that on the freeway 5th gear and about 3500 and I try to pass someone, it pings, 4th will as well. If I just roll it to go up an incline like an overpass it's fine. I set the ECU to a CO of +15 to start with and had the mentioned result. I reset the CO to +25 to see what would happen, the ping is there but not as bad. What is the "normal" number for the CO to be at?
Today I did listen very carefully to the ping and it seems most noticeable on the RH side. But it's a bit hard to tell for sure a 70mph.
EDIT... on the way home I noticed both sides had the ping, RH seemed more though.
Any thoughts?
EDIT... Again thank you to all that have helped me so far!!!!
Thank you,
Tom
-
1. I recommend that you get the warmed up idle speed to closer to 1200. Factory says 1160. Some mechanics like 1300 even.
2. Never had a reason to pay much attention to the spark advance. My 2004 generally just works.
3. My trim, and most that I have worked on, is 00. I usually only need to richen them up a bit if someone has a cheap leaking crossover, and it pops and backfires.
Any chance that it has been running rich, and has the cylinders really badly carboned up?
Personally, I would use GuzziDiag to tweak the spark advance of the 15M, and forget the 15RC
-
Wayne,
With the RC it may have been running lean, popping and flat spots. With the M it seems fine except for the ping on hard acceleration on the freeway. Maybe more rich to cure it? But if your normally 00 then I'm running to rich?? This is a stock bike, I was thinking of trying +30?? If it wasn't for the ping, I'd be done messing with it. Runs great.
At 12,000 miles I don't think carbon should be a problem???? But....?? Pulled heads and more on my old ones, but this one seems more involved?? I am looking for a solution before that.
Again, I had a flat spot at 3800-4000 and decel popping with the RC, but absolutely NO ping at speed on acceleration. Once over the flat spot with more throttle it pick up fine,
I'm a bit afraid to mess with the maps with Guzzidiag and TunerPro. If this was my Eldo with the same problem I would check the point and timing and retard the timing if needed. I would also check my carbs and clean as needed. One at a time though.
EDIT... after changing the ECU, should I have done a reset on the TPS with zero butterfly? Would not doing this cause too much advance at 3500-4000? Is there somewhere a stock advance curve per RPM? Thought I saw one somewhere, but can't find it.
Thanks so far!!
Tom
-
Hi Tom,
Found a supposedly new 15M locally that I could easily return if it didn't help or didn't work.
Which BIN are you using in the 15M? You should see it in the lower left corner after connecting GuzziDiag.
Per guzzidiag my TPS voltage is .529 at stop (which agreed with the value it read after setting the TPS with a multi-meter, meter was about .520 I think, it's written down)
GuzziDiag shows voltage as seen by the ECU, and that uses a 8bit A/D. The resolution is not good enough to do the base setting. You mention 0.52V. Is that the value you set the TPS to after removing all linkages and with the butterfly valve completely closed? Then 0.52V is much to high.
1: I think the 15RC stepped up the idle at start up, then came down after a few moments. The 15M does not do this. It cold idles at about 600-700 without the "choke", once warmed a few minutes it's at 1000. Normal for a 15M??
No. The 15M and the 15RC both have a start enrichment map. This map contains factors which are applied to the base fuel map after starting the engine. The standard duration the start enrichment map will be active are 4000 (engine) revolutions. Both the start enrichment map and the scalar defining the duration are included in the current XDF for the 15M. Download the BIN from the ECU, get Tunerpro and the 15M XDF and check if the values have been changed.
2: Maybe this is a read error with Guzzidiag. At the 1000 idle, it is showing about 20-30 deg advance on the timing. It varies. Bring the throttle up to lets say 1500, the timing comes back down (need to look at the number again) then advances much like my Eldo curve. Normal for 15M?? Sounds fine idling though, nice and smooth.
Not likely to be a read errror. GuzziDiag shows what the ECU is using. During idle, or more precisely while the ECU judges the throttle to be fully closed, the idle ignition map will be active. The normal values in that map (at low revs) are typically in the range of 10-12�.
This links to my previous question regarding the voltage the TPS was set to when fully closed. If you set it to 0.52V then the ECU will not see a TPS voltage which it recognizes as throttle fully closed. As the fully closed (=idle) status is not a fixed value, the ECU will automatically adjust within a certain range while running, you might see lower ignition values after the engine has run some time. The ECU learns (within limits) the new throttle closed setting.
3: ...except that on the freeway 5th gear and about 3500 and I try to pass someone, it pings, 4th will as well. If I just roll it to go up an incline like an overpass it's fine. I set the ECU to a CO of +15 to start with and had the mentioned result. I reset the CO to +25 to see what would happen, the ping is there but not as bad. What is the "normal" number for the CO to be at?
The CO trim adds a fixed value to the injection duration. The impact of this diminishes with increasing base fuel map values, so using the CO trim to correct wrong values in the base fuel maps makes no sense. As mentioned above first check which BIN you are using (was the 15M from a V11?), then adjust the base setting of the TPS to 150mV, using a DMM.
Cheers
Meinolf
-
With the RC it may have been running lean, popping and flat spots. With the M it seems fine except for the ping on hard acceleration on the freeway. Maybe more rich to cure it? But if your normally 00 then I'm running to rich?? This is a stock bike, I was thinking of trying +30?? If it wasn't for the ping, I'd be done messing with it. Runs great.
I would avoid richening it up to hide a detonation issue.
Try various grade of fuel. Maybe even some octane booster. See what that does.
Maybe the cam timing was messed up when the hydro update was done. Hard to believe.
Don't forget to bump the idle RPM up.
I have run my trim near zero or even negative. Never a detonation issue even with the cheap gasoline. Except in Florida in mid summer.
-
Meinolf,
After you mentioned that Guzzidiag was not accurate enough in the other thread I started on this isssue. I did set the TPS with the DMM on the 15RC ECU. The DMM read a few MV less than Guzzidiag did. So from this, anytime I need the TPS voltage I need to use the DMM.
The .529mv was the value I have for the idle setting, not the closed butterfly setting. Maybe the ECU is thinking that the .529mv is the butterfly closed and not the 800rpm idle?
When I get home I'll post the .bin that this ECU has.
I'll also start over on the TPS with the DMM. Making sure the 0 butterfly has the .150mv and then rest my idle value to .529mv.
I'll also check to see what advance at idle and at about 3500 before I make any changes and then see what it says after adjustments.
Wayne and Meinolf,
Now I know more about what the CO trim does. I thought it was a simple way to enrich/lean the air/fuel mix.
I plan to do the adjustments above as well as set the CO to zero. Adjust it slightly to improve idle smoothness.
I thought this would have been a simple swap, but it looks like I need to redo my setup from 0 butterfly to make sure all is right.
Let's see what happens?
Thanks again!!!
Tom
-
Well I played with the setting tonight.
The ECU read this: IAW15M PF3C 61601.045.00 3D02VS9G
Before making changes the readings were with a DMM:
At normal setting for a running idle, not zero/closed TPS: .514V on DMM and on Guzzidiag the butterfly was at 3.58 deg.
With the TB stop backed off all the way and the linkage removed from the TPS TB: .144V on DMM and -1.41 deg on GD. Yes minus 1.41 deg.
I also changed the CO to zero.
When I made changes:
Adjusted TPS to .150-.152V W/DMM. This varied on how I closed the butterfly. Let it snap closed and it read .148V, let it gently close and it read .152V.
Set TPS TB stop screw W/DMM to .525V and GD showed 3.58 deg.
When I started bike with DMM connected, the volts dropped down to .510 but the degrees stayed the same.
I did not make any adjustment to non-TPS TB before starting. Idle was low and rough when started after TPS TB adjustments.
Hooked up the balancing gauge and made sure the TB's were even at about 900rpm as well as 3000rpm. Adjusted the air bypass for the best idle but could not get a fairly smooth idle and get 1000rpm.
I was able to smooth the idle by using the CO trim set to 10. It now idles just about 1000rpm. I need to make my ride to work in the morning to see how it does at speed.
I was curious on the way home to see if I could get it to ping at low speed. 5th gear at about 35-40mph and turned it wide open. No ping, but it did pull really nice considering the gear I was in.
One more thing. Is this normal? With linkage removed and bike running. Turn TPS side TB butterfly and the engine revs sluggish, but OK. Turn non-TPS side and the engine tries to die. Connect the linkage and the engine revs nicely.
Again, thank you for the help,
Tom
-
Hi Tom,
The ECU read this: IAW15M PF3C 61601.045.00 3D02VS9G
That's the BIN for V11 with TI-exhaust. The VE of that combination is quite different from a California. Guzzis are very forgiving, at least if the mixture is on the rich side. But it's not the optimal BIN for a California. I am adapting my V11 BIN to a Jackal, and it requires a lot of changes to the fuel maps. I'm happy to share it with you once it is in a satisfactory state.
With the TB stop backed off all the way and the linkage removed from the TPS TB: .144V on DMM and -1.41 deg on GD. Yes minus 1.41 deg. I also changed the CO to zero.
When I made changes:
Adjusted TPS to .150-.152V W/DMM. This varied on how I closed the butterfly. Let it snap closed and it read .148V, let it gently close and it read .152V.
Set TPS TB stop screw W/DMM to .525V and GD showed 3.58 deg.
That sounds good. Don't worry about the -1.41°. The BIN contains minimum and maximum values for the TPS (and the other sensors). If these are exceeded (defective sensor/TPS, shortage to ground or plus) you will see inplausible values in GuzziDiag. The ECU will resort to using default values, which should keep the engine running.
One more thing. Is this normal? With linkage removed and bike running. Turn TPS side TB butterfly and the engine revs sluggish, but OK. Turn non-TPS side and the engine tries to die. Connect the linkage and the engine revs nicely.
Sure, that's normal. You are opening a butterfly valve, thus increasing throughput of air, but the ECU isn't aware of it. So more air, same injection values - the mixture leans.
Cheers
Meinolf
-
I would love to have a .bin for this ECU that will make the bike run like a "stock" EVT. This .bin is nice and smooth, but as mentioned, pings on passing a car type acceleration. Just turning the throttle for a rise and it's very peppy. Off the line it's peppy. From riding my oldies, didn't know a Guzzi could hit 70mph that fast without pushing it. With the EVT I'm not even trying to get to 70mph, it just gets there! If it wasn't for the 3500-4000 5th gear ping, I'd be a very happy camper :smiley: This rpm range is my cruise on the freeway.
Is there a "stock" .bin available for download? Would your modified .bin maybe clean up the issues? Would like to try it when your ready.
Is there a good tutorial on how to use TunerPro? When I looked at my 15RC .bin, i had no clue to what to do with the info I was reading. The graphs made some sense, but not how to adjust them?????
Thank you again!!
Tom
-
Hi Tom,
as you swapped the original ECU, there's probably no BIN for your bike with a 15M. Which, however, doesn't really matter. The main difference between the 15RC and the 15M is that the RC supports closed loop operation. Which you wouldn't want to have anyway :-)
Beetle described the usage of Tunerpro here: http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=73938.0
Cheers
Meinolf
-
Tom if you pm me your emailaddress, you get some maps to try.
For tunerpro, just google for info there is quite a lot in youtube and webpages.
Some basic help is in the program, like how to turn and zoom into the 3d map view. using alt or ctrl keys while clicking
. Also you can easy select a bigger part of the map and change all values you selected at once.
-
Meinolf,
The original ECU had been changed before I bought the bike to the 15RC. UNLESS..Guzzi wrote on the ECU Cal Vint Good with a black marker. LOL
I looked up the 15M part number for what should be my model bike, and then found a supposedly new 15M with the correct part number, but apparently not the right .bin number.
I'll give the link a read tonight.
Pauldaytona,
PM will be sent.
Rode to work today after the adjustments last night. Ran smooth, but still had a ping as described before. Paid a little more attention as to when is would start. One the 20 minute freeway trip, first 5-10 nary a ping, but after that it was back to as described ping.
Thanks again,
Tom
-
After years of messing with my tps and adding a PC111, I pulled the tps off. Inside I found the copper contacts to be bent, damaged and worn. I replace the tps with an OEM unit and have not had another issue. The tps will come apart very easily.
Also, I have read all the recommendation on adjusting the tps. The end results seems to be that it should be set at .500-.525 at idle. I set mine at idle and left the rest of the steps out. I did balance and adjust the air bypass though prior to setting the tps.
-
Stock bin files for an EV Touring emailed.
-
Dave and Paul,
60 miles one of the .bin's that Paul sent and it runs very nice now. Wow, is this how this bike should run!!! Good idle, good acceleration, no flat spots and no pinging.
The original V11 .bin that this ECU came with almost felt a little peppier, but pinged at 4000rpm during acceleration.
I plan to try the rest with a few days in between and see how they feel. Try each for my 120mi between fill ups and see how each effects the mileage.
Next will be the one from Dave that is from my year model and see how it does.
Again, Thank you for your help with the .bins!! Also to everyone that has offer help as well!!
Meinolf, when your modified .bin is ready, I'd like to see how it does.
Tom, with a nice running EVT :grin: