Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: StubkierDK on January 21, 2016, 02:06:03 PM
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Hey Wildguzzi
As small project and a exercise to get to know the newly aquried 3D printer at my office in am contemplating making a "undertank" breather box. The project is purely for fun, I have the LM box on my T3 and it works fine - but would like to to remove some of the clutter.
The project is inspired by this great build:
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=71199.150 (http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=71199.150)
and this under tank box:
http://us-en.radicalguzzi.com/img/2641390054486692a_7DL2037.jpg (http://us-en.radicalguzzi.com/img/2641390054486692a_7DL2037.jpg)
Hower browsing around the net and Wildguzzi I can see that there is more than one way to route a breather box. Currently my bike is setup as shown below:
Option 1
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d69/Stubkier/Moto%20Guzii/MotoGuzzi_current_1.png) (http://s33.photobucket.com/user/Stubkier/media/Moto%20Guzii/MotoGuzzi_current_1.png.html)
I have also seen systems routed like this:
Option 2
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d69/Stubkier/Moto%20Guzii/MotoGuzzi_new_1.png) (http://s33.photobucket.com/user/Stubkier/media/Moto%20Guzii/MotoGuzzi_new_1.png.html)
I have made small test print to show the layout of the unit. However before I deside where to but the connections should be placed - it would be nice to have clear picture of how the flow is in the system.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6lmgr2yavm1edq3/20160121_205328.jpg?dl=0&preview=20160121_205328.jpg (https://www.dropbox.com/s/6lmgr2yavm1edq3/20160121_205328.jpg?dl=0&preview=20160121_205328.jpg)
The unit will be filled with demister pads to help condense/separate the oil mist.
So I need you help ?
- How does the gas/oil mist flow through the breather box and how should it flow?
- Where is the highest pressure in the system
A) Cylinder head ?
B) Front of engine ?
C) Breather outlet from crank ?
D) Drain return to engine
E) Gearbox breather (not so relevant)
BR StubkierDK
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Thinly disguised bump because I don't know. I *do* know that because of the split crankcase in the small block there is a lot of oil pumped through the heads and breather system. You'll need a return to the crankcase from the breather.
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Not sure about any of drawings but system works as is, best way to remove "clutter" is blank off rocker breathers, crimp / weld ends on breather or fit small hose connecting them.
Then it's like originally intended in 1967, rocker breathers were an answer to problem that never existed.
Do use (clear) catch tank, it is instant way of seeing any accumulated oil, if open a few ounces of oil on engine/exhaust or ground looks like a major problem.
A full catch tank is.
But be sure to have gearbox breather at top of tank otherwise any engine oil in tank will syphon into gearbox, leak will show at rear drive box (ask me how I know)
So in short, replicate exactly what you have but without rocker breathers, simple , big hose with PCV breaths, small hose returns the condensate under the oil level
Both these on top of bell housing
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If you have ever run a Guzzi engine with a valve cover off, you have seen how much oil fog is being flung around. It got my attention immediately when my glasses got covered in oil. The breather system has a very big job to do on these engines. A lot of engineering has been done on the stock breather system that should be appreciated. Way more complex than first meets the eye, I would say.
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Thinly disguised bump because I don't know. I *do* know that because of the split crankcase in the small block there is a lot of oil pumped through the heads and breather system. You'll need a return to the crankcase from the breather.
OK - I also intended to keep the return to the crank case. Sometimes I wonder how all those "cafed" guzzi's have eliminated the breather box.
If you have ever run a Guzzi engine with a valve cover off, you have seen how much oil fog is being flung around. It got my attention immediately when my glasses got covered in oil. The breather system has a very big job to do on these engines. A lot of engineering has been done on the stock breather system that should be appreciated. Way more complex than first meets the eye, I would say.
Hehe have never run mine without the cover. But I will take your word for it. Sine my T3 is not running stock air filter the breather system is already different from the original. And I am currently trying to figure out if the rocker breathers allows oil to flow in or out of the rocker cover ?
I intend to put some hours of engineering into this box - my day job is among other design oil and droplet separation system for industrial registrants systems. So I hoping to do a CFD flow simulation of the box :)
Not sure about any of drawings but system works as is, best way to remove "clutter" is blank off rocker breathers, crimp / weld ends on breather or fit small hose connecting them.
Then it's like originally intended in 1967, rocker breathers were an answer to problem that never existed.
Do use (clear) catch tank, it is instant way of seeing any accumulated oil, if open a few ounces of oil on engine/exhaust or ground looks like a major problem.
A full catch tank is.
But be sure to have gearbox breather at top of tank otherwise any engine oil in tank will syphon into gearbox, leak will show at rear drive box (ask me how I know)
So in short, replicate exactly what you have but without rocker breathers, simple , big hose with PCV breaths, small hose returns the condensate under the oil level
Both these on top of bell housing
Thanks for the tips - good point about the (clear) catch tank. I will add that to the system. Currently my catch tank is a black/non transparrent vessel under the seat.
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And I am currently trying to figure out if the rocker breathers allows oil to flow in or out of the rocker cover ?
The idea at time was more venting for cases
square engines got weirder, was drain(under head) for frame breather but u bend was mayo trap, system failure when this happens
On roundies & early square the drain behind clutch is all you need, without this an external drain a la 1100Sp will work well
Don't reinvent the wheel, just copy what you have without rocker breather (or leave it alone - it works)
I've seen more breather systems ruined by "tuners" than ever seen any improvement, what exactly are you trying to gain ?
Work on wiring instead, tons of crap to clean up there + you'll make it better not worse.
Or suspension or brakes, plenty or room to improve without changing bits that work.
Ago made a "hidden" under tank big breather box, I used to run one, works as well as the OE one but with longer hoses to perish.
Copy that if you like long rubber hoses with formed bends in them but buy spares, you'll need them.
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The idea at time was more venting for cases
square engines got weirder, was drain(under head) for frame breather but u bend was mayo trap, system failure when this happens
On roundies & early square the drain behind clutch is all you need, without this an external drain a la 1100Sp will work well
Don't reinvent the wheel, just copy what you have without rocker breather (or leave it alone - it works)
I've seen more breather systems ruined by "tuners" than ever seen any improvement, what exactly are you trying to gain ?
Work on wiring instead, tons of crap to clean up there + you'll make it better not worse.
Or suspension or brakes, plenty or room to improve without changing bits that work.
Ago made a "hidden" under tank big breather box, I used to run one, works as well as the OE one but with longer hoses to perish.
Copy that if you like long rubber hoses with formed bends in them but buy spares, you'll need them.
Thanks for all the feedback and input :)
- I am working on the wiring - just ordered a completely new, custom, wire harness. It is currently on its way - so i am working on it.
- Front suspension have been upgraded to FAC and progressive springs
- Brakes updated/change the front master. No other changes. I like the linked brakes
...what exactly are you trying to gain .... Learn how the breather system works and learn to use a 3D printer. It is a "just for fun" project. And it will most likely end up with a under tank solution.
BR Simon
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We're talking small block here, Martin.. it is entirely different than the big block. Blocking off the valve covers is a bad idea. They even cast tits on the valve covers over the valves for the oil to coalesce and drip off on them. Except the Lario. :evil: At any rate, the pumping action of the split crankcase is nothing like the big block.
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We're talking small block here, Martin.. it is entirely different than the big block. Blocking off the valve covers is a bad idea. They even cast tits on the valve covers over the valves for the oil to coalesce and drip off on them. Except the Lario. :evil: At any rate, the pumping action of the split crankcase is nothing like the big block.
Even though my 850t3 with 1000CC kit must be considered a big block I think I will stick with the rear facing vents on the valve/rocker cover.
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Oh, I'm sorry, my bad. For some reason, I thought you were working on a small block. :embarrassed:
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Made som preliminary design suggestions. The main focus have been the outlet to the atmosphere and the inlet for the main breather hose.
The vessel is intetned to be mounted under the tank on the frame. The port seen here is the outlet to the atmosphere. A pipe connection or mount for a small filter will be added.
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d69/Stubkier/Moto%20Guzii/01.png) (http://s33.photobucket.com/user/Stubkier/media/Moto%20Guzii/01.png.html)
This is the other end of the tank. The large port is for the breather inlet. This end of the tank is placed at the lowest end - so condensed oil will collect at the bottom. I am still in doubt if where the rocker cover breather should be connected. However the small drain at the lowest point will return the oil to the crank.
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d69/Stubkier/Moto%20Guzii/02.png) (http://s33.photobucket.com/user/Stubkier/media/Moto%20Guzii/02.png.html)
More pictures:
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d69/Stubkier/Moto%20Guzii/03.png) (http://s33.photobucket.com/user/Stubkier/media/Moto%20Guzii/03.png.html)
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d69/Stubkier/Moto%20Guzii/05.png) (http://s33.photobucket.com/user/Stubkier/media/Moto%20Guzii/05.png.html)
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d69/Stubkier/Moto%20Guzii/06.png) (http://s33.photobucket.com/user/Stubkier/media/Moto%20Guzii/05.png.html)
The workstation is currently running af CFD simulation, just for fun, to se how the air flows through the unit. And the 3D printer is working on the first prototype. Hope that it will done by Monday.
BR StubkierDK
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Which printed model are you using? I've been 3D printing in PLA, ABS, and to a very limited extent, nylon for 3-4 years on my Ultimaker. Have you printed and verified water tight parts? It's not exactly easy to do and of course its required for this part.
The print material will be critical in that it can survive a constant oil bath, under tank temps, and print water tight. I think nylon would be my choice for chemical compatibility, but it is notoriously difficult to print with. ABS might be OK. With that, you can post process with acetone to congeal the surfaces to be smooth and non-porous. PLA prints beautifully, but won't survive the oil for long, and will slump when it is exposed to even mildly hot temps.
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Which printed model are you using? I've been 3D printing in PLA, ABS, and to a very limited extent, nylon for 3-4 years on my Ultimaker. Have you printed and verified water tight parts? It's not exactly easy to do and of course its required for this part.
The print material will be critical in that it can survive a constant oil bath, under tank temps, and print water tight. I think nylon would be my choice for chemical compatibility, but it is notoriously difficult to print with. ABS might be OK. With that, you can post process with acetone to congeal the surfaces to be smooth and non-porous. PLA prints beautifully, but won't survive the oil for long, and will slump when it is exposed to even mildly hot temps.
We have a ultimaker 2. And PLA, ABS and Nylon to chose from. We tested water and PLA but it sorter absorbs the water. I think i will use the acetone trick on the final unit or some other surface treatment . I am still reading up on the subject.
BR
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Excellent choice of printers. A little more pricey than others in the market sector, but well worth it I think.
Acetone will smooth ABS very nicely. My hot tub is currently plumbed with a couple of custom pieces made from ABS and smoothed with acetone (dipping). One piece is a short adapter that couldn't be made with off the shelf parts. The other is a venturi ozone injector. Both have been exposed to chlorine and 105deg water for about 2 months. If they fail, I will just print more copies.
I hear that acetone can also smooth PLA too. I've never tried it. I think the oil will break it down even if it can be made leak free.
Not sure there's a process for smoothing nylon...
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First prototype printed and test fitted:
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d69/Stubkier/2016-01-25%2016.09.48.jpg) (http://s33.photobucket.com/user/Stubkier/media/2016-01-25%2016.09.48.jpg.html)
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d69/Stubkier/2016-01-25%2016.09.43.jpg) (http://s33.photobucket.com/user/Stubkier/media/2016-01-25%2016.09.43.jpg.html)
It is still missing the end covers. However I need to make a new tank as it is just 1-2 mm to wide and tall to fit between the tank and frame.
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Minor update:
Are on the 3rd version of the tank. Now it fits snugly under the tank. In addition I have done a small (and basic) cfd simulation of the tank. It is just to ensure that the flow and drain zones are in the right places.
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d69/Stubkier/Flow2.png) (http://s33.photobucket.com/user/Stubkier/media/Flow2.png.html)
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d69/Stubkier/Flow1.png) (http://s33.photobucket.com/user/Stubkier/media/Flow1.png.html)
I have the first version of the tank submerged in old gear oil - and after 3 days there is no changes and the oil can be wiped completely off. Plan to leave it there for a total of 14 days to be 100% sure that the oil does not change over time.
The printet surface is treated with the "acetone method"
BR StubkierDK
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Hi Stubkjaer,
I know it is an old thread, but it could be fun to hear how it went with your breather box project.
- Ulrik