Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: smdl on January 26, 2016, 08:32:32 PM
-
Hi, folks.
I'm at the point of mating the engine to the gearbox on my 850-T/750S tribute bike, and am running into difficulty. This is the first bike that I have reassembled with the deep spline (4mm) clutch hub and plates (SD-TEC), and I am finding that it just will not align and go together. I have the proper clutch alignment tool, and I am able to slide that back into the clutch plate splines (the bolt threads in), so I think everything should be going back together, but it just won't. I have tried ensuring it is in gear, and have turned the output shaft while trying to mate the two, but still no go. I suppose I can disassemble and reassemble the clutch again, and try another time, but thought I would pause and ask if anyone can think of anything else that needs to happen. I'm not really new to this, having easily assembled both my Eldo and my Stelvio, so I'm a bit surprised that it is being so difficult!
One other thought is that I have heard about certain Eldos having alignment issues between gearbox and engine, and that a 2mm spline clutch hub is recommended for those, but I don't think that this carries through to the engine in this bike. This engine is from an 850-T, with oil filter. Also, this bike had a 4mm clutch hub on it already, and Charley Cole replaced it with the same when he rebuilt the gearbox. So, this engine and gearbox have been successfully mated before, with a 4mm hub in place.
Any advice appreciated, and I can certainly post pics if that would help.
Cheers,
Shaun
-
Make sure both clutch plates are the same. I had a dealer [who will remain nameless] send me a deep and shallow plates.
-
Thanks. Will check but I am pretty certain that they are the same. I believe they came together, in the same box, from MG Cycle.
Cheers,
Shaun
-
How about a pic of your alignment tool and the outer face of the friction plates. With the tool inserted and also with the tool held out separate.
Is there ANY engagement and it just won't go all the way? Or will it not insert at all?
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
-
How about a pic of your alignment tool and the outer face of the friction plates. With the tool inserted and also with the tool held out separate.
Is there ANY engagement and it just won't go all the way? Or will it not insert at all?
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
Hi, Patrick.
It seems that the clutch hub gets just to the point when it starts to engage the friction plates, and then won't go any further.
I'll take some pics tomorrow and post them.
Thanks,
Shaun
-
Sometimes they are fussy. I go back & put in tool, snug it to free plates, give the tool a spin one way then the other. Loosen it making sure tool slides in & out freely. I use an old hub w/spacer and washers to be able to spin it w/the springs are tight like you have the clutch pulled in.
Yep, sometimes w/BIG rubber MALLET WWAAAKKKKK
-
This kind of goes along with what others have said but do you have a spare 4mm hub sitting around to see if that slides in easily?
-
dumb maybe but the friction plates only go in 1 way, the protruding flange facing to tranny?
-
Thanks, all.
It sounds like Steve's method makes a lot of sense, so I will try that tomorrow night when I get home, and will take some pics at the same time.
Kevin, no, I don't have a spare hub to test with. I managed to dig out a brand new hub that I knew I had, only to recall that it is for a V11 6-speed. No help there!
Foto, good thought, but I am aware that these only go one way, and checked carefully when putting them in. I'll double-check tomorrow, though, just to be sure.
Really appreciate all the excellent input! No pun intended.
Cheers,
Shaun
-
When mating the trans I have it in gear. When I get to the point where the hub contacts the clutch, I turn the output shaft using a pliers wrapped in a shop rag. This helps the teeth align.
-
So, this engine and gearbox have been successfully mated before, with a 4mm hub in place.
Any advice appreciated, and I can certainly post pics if that would help.
Cheers,
Shaun
You will succeed. Mating the two can be a real PITA some times, while other times they just slide together at first try, and I don`t think pictures can be of any help here.
Spinning the tool, as Steve suggests, sounds as a good idea. I use to take out the plugs and rotate the flywheel with a screwdriver through the timing inspection hole while performing the operation.
I don`t know why this is, but when I have been struggling with this myself, I`ve had good luck rotating the flywheel 180 degrees. Hmm,- just a skinny input from here.
Good luck
-
I have put a little dot of anti-sieze on the end of the spline, then when I pull the gear box back I can see how far off I am on the cultch plate where the anti-sieze touched. Sometimes they slide right on and others just give you a hard time.
-
When mating the trans I have it in gear. When I get to the point where the hub contacts the clutch, I turn the output shaft using a pliers wrapped in a shop rag. This helps the teeth align.
I do the same thing, but use a worn out driveshaft coupler with Vise-Grips on it to turn the output shaft.
-
The last 4 MM clutch hub that I used was a bastard also, look at the leading edge of the splines, I found mine was dropped and the edge of the splines was battered. A little file work and it went together fine. DG
-
Drinks usually increases the chances of mating.
-
Drinks usually increases the chances of mating.
:smiley: True, true..
-
Sometimes they are fussy. I go back & put in tool, snug it to free plates, give the tool a spin one way then the other. Loosen it making sure tool slides in & out freely. I use an old hub w/spacer and washers to be able to spin it w/the springs are tight like you have the clutch pulled in.
Yep, sometimes w/BIG rubber MALLET WWAAAKKKKK
Okay, following up on this. I have tried doing as you say, Steve, but I don't find that the plates want to spin when I tighten the tool down. Probably because of the tension on the tool from tightening the bolt?
I think I am going to dismantle the clutch, and reassemble again, making sure that everything seems to go together as expected. Will post late once I try it.
Thanks,
Shaun
-
By the way, as mentioned in the original post, I did have the gearbox in gear, and was turning the output shaft using the u-joint, but that didn't seem to help.
Thanks again for the great input. I've brought the wine out to the garage, and am playing romantic music. Fingers crossed... :grin:
Shaun
-
I have a very thick washer w/flat on edge that fits in where the puck goes, then when you tighten the bolt it works like normal disengagement.
-
Well, since you brought it up, be advised that even when you get them to mate they will not reproduce.
-
If the rivets come loose they do.
-
I made an alignment tool from a scrap of 1/8 Aluminum
It fits in the valley on one side and on the peak on the other, it has two strips of 16 gauge riveted on to line it up on the peak.
(http://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s526/Kiwi_Roy/752ce53b-e88f-4854-bea0-200b263d6b78_zpsuvmesmv8.jpg)
-
Thanks, all. Success! Once I reassembled the clutch and offered up the gearbox to the engine, it slid home nicely, this time. :cool:
Only one problem remains, now. The clutch actuation arm seems really close to the gearbox, and the outer body is recessed into the gearbox housing. I guess I'll have to go back in and have a look. Maybe the pressure plate didn't move completely back into normal position?
More investigation needed.
Cheers,
Shaun
-
Thanks, all. Success! Once I reassembled the clutch and offered up the gearbox to the engine, it slid home nicely, this time. :cool:
Only one problem remains, now. The clutch actuation arm seems really close to the gearbox, and the outer body is recessed into the gearbox housing. I guess I'll have to go back in and have a look. Maybe the pressure plate didn't move completely back into normal position?
More investigation needed.
Cheers,
Shaun
you didn't forget to put the cup in that the push rod acts on did you?
-
I really don't think so, but I had it in and out so many times today that I am now second-guessing myself. That would sure make sense, and then I could laugh at myself even more! :grin: Will head back out in a few minutes and confirm.
Shaun
-
you didn't forget to put the cup in that the push rod acts on did you?
Okay, I have confirmed that the button was indeed in place as it should be.
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/SAM_1839%20Med_zpsg88daiaq.jpg)
I haven't disassembled the clutch again yet, but I think everything looks as it should.
This is how the outer body looks:
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/SAM_1837%20Med_zpsqkfn7y2m.jpg)
Any thoughts appreciated.
Cheers,
Shaun
-
That outer body should be close to flush with the back.
Odd.
Did you do anything to the pushrod and bearing that might do that?
I'm guessing no. I would take the clutch bolts back out and see what is going on.
-
Yeah, that's what I thought, too. No, I reinstalled the gearbox just as it came back from Charley.
I'm done for tonight, but I'll plan to remove the outer body tomorrow night and see what it looks like inside. I'll also have a look at the clutch again.
Thanks,
Shaun
-
This is how the outer body looks:
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/SAM_1837%20Med_zpsqkfn7y2m.jpg)
What clutch plates are installed? S-D Tec? New clutch pushrod?
-
Hi, Charlie.
Yes, the plates are SD-TEC, and I don't know about the pushrod. I suppose that Charley might have replaced it, but I don't recall him mentioning that, and I can't call to check with him. I'll look back through my emails and see if he mentioned this with his invoice. He was very good at capturing the work required/done when he worked on an item.
Are these pushrods available in different lengths like they are for the CARC bikes?
Thanks,
Shaun
-
Hi, Charlie.
Yes, the plates are SD-TEC, and I don't know about the pushrod. I suppose that Charley might have replaced it, but I don't recall him mentioning that, and I can't call to check with him. I'll look back through my emails and see if he mentioned this with his invoice. He was very good at capturing the work required/done when he worked on an item.
Are these pushrods available in different lengths like they are for the CARC bikes?
Thanks,
Shaun
The SD-TEC plates seem to be a little bit thicker than original and other aftermarket plates, enough that two of them can result in the outer body being indented as shown in your photo. MG Cycle sells a 5mm longer pushrod meant for use with the RAM clutch:
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193&products_id=4690
When faced with the same situation, I buy one of those and grind a bit off of one end so that the outer body sits flush or very slightly indented.
-
The SD-TEC plates seem to be a little bit thicker than original and other aftermarket plates, enough that two of them can result in the outer body being indented as shown in your photo. MG Cycle sells a 5mm longer pushrod meant for use with the RAM clutch:
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193&products_id=4690
When faced with the same situation, I buy one of those and grind a bit off of one end so that the outer body sits flush or very slightly indented.
Okay, the suspense was killing me, so I went out and had a look at the outer and inner body, along with the throwout bearing. all came out together, and they look just fine. Nicely greased, turning freely. Nothing to see here, folks. Move along.
Thanks for the additional info, Charlie, and I'm glad to hear that you have seen something similar in the past. I'll still check the clutch again, but everything seems to be fine, there, and I'll likely end up ordering the new pushrod.
Cheers,
Shaun
-
The last couple that I did I used the SD-TEC plates. I believe they did need a small amount of tweaking. Most noticeable though, they needed a LOT of adjustments the first couple hundred miles. The friction material must have a lot of burrs on them or something. But the plates have worked well, even on my EV towing the camper.
-
Thanks for the additional info, Charlie, and I'm glad to hear that you have seen something similar in the past. I'll still check the clutch again, but everything seems to be fine, there, and I'll likely end up ordering the new pushrod.
I went a slightly different direction on a local customer's Eldo. Since it's close by and I do all of the maintenance on it, I decided to use it as a "guinea pig". Instead of the longer pushrod, I inserted a 4 mm (5/32") ball bearing in the pushrod hole of the inner body. Same result as the longer pushrod and after nearly 5k miles it seems to be working fine.
-
Thanks for the info, guys. I needed a few things from MG, so I just ordered the longer pushrod.
Cheers,
Shaun
-
I went a slightly different direction on a local customer's Eldo. Since it's close by and I do all of the maintenance on it, I decided to use it as a "guinea pig". Instead of the longer pushrod, I inserted a 4 mm (5/32") ball bearing in the pushrod hole of the inner body. Same result as the longer pushrod and after nearly 5k miles it seems to be working fine.
GENIUS !
:bow:
-
Sounds like you got it figured out Shaun, we need to see some progress pictures!
I have been working through the de-greasing, bead blasting, polishing etc.. stage as I strip the current project, least favorite part of the build.
-
Visit your local bolt supply store and get a length of 6mm drill rod, make one the desired length for few $. DonG
-
Some good ideas, but I have ordered the longer pushrod, and will be installing it over the weekend. We'll see how it all comes together.
Jim, glad to hear you are making progress on your newest project. I'll keep the updates on mine coming, but certainly not ask quickly as yours!
Cheers,
Shaun
-
Hi Shaun
Happy to come by and lend an extra pair of hands if needed. I just rebuilt the trans in the cx100 adding new SD-TECH plates and stock length push rod with no problem...yet. I have a spare 4mm hub and all the factory tools for spinning the box. Let me know.
Harry
-
Thanks, Harry. Everything looks good, so I think I'm okay, bit will double check again and let you know. Very much appreciated!
Cheers,
Shaun
PS: Let me know if you still want that oil pump.
-
Hi Shaun
Glad it worked out. Just picked up a set of heads for my eldo project. Gord Bush did them and I highly recommend his shop. Mark at MGC is sending a used oil pump from his stash so I'll wait to see what comes. If you want to return yours, then go ahead as Mark felt confident that what he has is drop in.
Harry
-
Cool, thanks, Harry.
Shaun
-
I went a slightly different direction on a local customer's Eldo. Since it's close by and I do all of the maintenance on it, I decided to use it as a "guinea pig". Instead of the longer pushrod, I inserted a 4 mm (5/32") ball bearing in the pushrod hole of the inner body. Same result as the longer pushrod and after nearly 5k miles it seems to be working fine.
My Matchless 350 had that as standard between the pushrod and the clutch cover. Worked for over 200,000 miles. The clutch of course did not have to deal with the pressures of a Guzzi clutch.