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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: thebaileylee on February 08, 2016, 08:26:26 PM

Title: would you trust these welds....
Post by: thebaileylee on February 08, 2016, 08:26:26 PM
http://www.twtex.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107489
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on February 08, 2016, 08:42:27 PM
Why don't you ask the guy that did them, he's on here. ;-)
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Triple Jim on February 08, 2016, 08:52:47 PM
I don't know the situation, and whether you might now own it and are asking for safety reasons, and I mean no offense to the guy who welded it, but no, I would not ride that motorcycle with the welds as shown in the photos.
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: guzziownr on February 08, 2016, 09:00:22 PM
Some welds are more artistic than others.  A little customization from Antietam Classic Cycle.  Early T-3 swingarm modded for use in a '75 Eldorado.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-6KZKwd6WgVQ/VrlVXP4eMDI/AAAAAAAABDg/sQVMeowB3x8/w916-h685-no/weld.jpg)
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: arveno on February 08, 2016, 09:00:43 PM
yes , why not ?
I have seen worst on HD choppers .... and none of them broke.
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: MotoG5 on February 08, 2016, 09:24:36 PM
Personally I would grind them out and reweld. I have been a power plant welder for quite a few years and I will admit to being somewhat picky.
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on February 08, 2016, 09:36:43 PM
Some welds are more artistic than others.  A little customization from Antietam Classic Cycle.  Early T-3 swingarm modded for use in a '75 Eldorado.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-6KZKwd6WgVQ/VrlVXP4eMDI/AAAAAAAABDg/sQVMeowB3x8/w916-h685-no/weld.jpg)

Just to be clear, I did not weld that. I only wish I could weld that good. It was actually done by Curtis Fisk at Full Circle V-Twin in Hagerstown, MD.
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 09, 2016, 07:32:26 AM
I would say not pretty but stuck. :smiley:  A stick welder would be the last method I'd choose for that job, though.
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: LaMojo on February 09, 2016, 07:42:24 AM
I would say not pretty but stuck. :smiley:  A stick welder would be the last method I'd choose for that job, though.
:1:  The welds don't appear to have much penetration - I wouldn't trust it especially with the long leverage and impact loading it will have to resist.  But after years of designing and inspecting structural steel, I may be too critical.
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: guzzisteve on February 09, 2016, 07:47:28 AM
The gusset plates are plenty big and welding is good enough. Ever look at a Ural or their sidecars?  Not any better, sidecar stuff is crooked w/welded together. 
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Triple Jim on February 09, 2016, 08:15:49 AM
The problem is that you can't tell if those welds will hold during use by looking at them.  In my younger days, equipped with a 120V input 50A stick welder, I made a few welds that looked like that, and had more than one suddenly break completely loose without warning.  Luckily I never trusted any of them in a safety related application.  If you have to take out the grinder to knock down the big bumpy welds, it's because of what LaMojo said, the welds didn't penetrate, and are mostly sitting on top.

I later learned the term for making welds like that:  "Hanging grapes."
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: mtiberio on February 09, 2016, 09:07:44 AM
I have heard it said, that if you have to grind your welds after welding to make them look pretty, you are a grinder, not a welder...
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Waltr on February 09, 2016, 10:25:58 AM
Just to be clear, I did not weld that. I only wish I could weld that good. It was actually done by Curtis Fisk at Full Circle V-Twin in Hagerstown, MD.

Is this a stick weld?   
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Triple Jim on February 09, 2016, 10:28:19 AM
Is this a stick weld?

I don't mean to butt in, but that's a TIG weld.
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Waltr on February 09, 2016, 10:47:48 AM
That is what I thought, still nice weld.   I thought I was missing some new innovation in stick weld technology.  I have seen some real nice stick welds but nothing that even.
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Triple Jim on February 09, 2016, 11:05:44 AM
When I had the crummy little stick welder and an oxy-acetylene setup in my own shop, I did most of my welding with gas.  Then at my first engineering job, we hired a welder to put together a full scale all-aluminum model of an M1 tank that I had helped design.  He let me try his TIG machine and gave me a little instruction.  I was hooked from that moment.  It was very much like gas welding, and even allowed real-time heat adjustment with the pedal.  I could go as slow or as fast as I wanted, with no slag or dangerous spattering.  In the 30 years since I bought a TIG welder, I have used the gas setup only for things like heat treating and cutting, and stick only on rare occasions, and that was with the TIG machine set up for stick.
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: guzzimatic on February 09, 2016, 11:14:04 AM
That is what we call a row of dimes.A very nice TIG weld.A long time ago as an apprentice Boilermaker working on a nuke I was pimping a welder who could only hold a steady bead for 3 inches,starts and stops were terrible.Everything was X-rayed and if it failed I had to air-arc it out the next day,NO FUN...so I figured out I could grind out the first and last 2 inches and make this guy pass X-ray! My pusher(foreman) was very pleased!
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Rough Edge racing on February 09, 2016, 11:30:42 AM
 The row of dimes is nice to see ...but the real quality of the weld is proper penetration...
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: boatdetective on February 09, 2016, 11:47:15 AM
The welds look pretty hideous to me. I'd have to agree with the others.  In this case- weld failure literally could mean your life.  I don't know why anyone would use a stick welder on a motorcycle anyway. MIG machines have become so inexpensive and really have improved tremendously. Of course i love TIG- but it takes a lot of practice to get proficient. MIG will give you a consistent, clean weld that should be way easier for the mere mortal to achieve.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4RrDeUKcH4
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Rough Edge racing on February 09, 2016, 12:54:35 PM
  are welds on a Moto Guzzi TIG or MIG?
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 09, 2016, 01:05:42 PM
MIG
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Stevex on February 09, 2016, 03:46:37 PM
I'm not convinced that headstock's even straight. A couple of iron bars and a G-clamp do not a jig make.
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: boatdetective on February 09, 2016, 04:05:12 PM
I'm not convinced that headstock's even straight. A couple of iron bars and a G-clamp do not a jig make.

Oh come on- don't be a wuss.  What's the worst that could happen   :wink:
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Perazzimx14 on February 09, 2016, 04:06:59 PM
Is this a stick weld?

No that is "slap weld". Slap it on and hope it sticks. I'd trust JB weld over that set of "welding" skills. I am a pipefitter by trade and been around some of the best welders in the piping industry. I would be embarrassed to show stuff like that and something like that would never leave our fab shop or be produce in the field.

 
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Perazzimx14 on February 09, 2016, 04:14:15 PM
Just to be clear, I did not weld that. I only wish I could weld that good. It was actually done by Curtis Fisk at Full Circle V-Twin in Hagerstown, MD.

If you have natural talent I have guys that can bring it out and teach you to weld like that in short order. The biggest thing is having the natural talent. I have guys that practice their a$$ off and will never be good welders. Welding is an art a toxic art! It is linked to several horrible diseases like Parkinson's and is hell on your eyes, lungs and internal organs. I learned early on in my apprenticeship I didn't have the talent to be a welder and in the long run I'm glad I didn't. 
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 09, 2016, 05:14:53 PM
If you have natural talent I have guys that can bring it out and teach you to weld like that in short order. The biggest thing is having the natural talent. I have guys that practice their a$$ off and will never be good welders. Welding is an art a toxic art! It is linked to several horrible diseases like Parkinson's and is hell on your eyes, lungs and internal organs. I learned early on in my apprenticeship I didn't have the talent to be a welder and in the long run I'm glad I didn't.

Like painting, it can kill ya. <shrug> Good ventilation is a must. Almost all the welders I knew at a GM plant where I worked died from brain cancer. (!!) That said, it's all about puddle control.. you *have* to be able to see the edge of the  puddle. I've taught several guys to ox acetylene weld on aircraft structures. Once you can weld with a torch and understand puddle control, the rest are easy.
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: twowings on February 09, 2016, 06:11:03 PM
The row of dimes is nice to see ...but the real quality of the weld is proper penetration...

This person knows what he is talking about...without penetration you are just making a metal scab that will fail in time...usually not the ideal time...
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: cleatusj on February 09, 2016, 07:09:36 PM
I did not ask a one of you to trust my welds, but I sure trust them over half the great looking mig welds I've watched others lay down. I have no doubt as to the penetration.  The neck is straighter than several stock Guzzi frames that the factory chose to sell.

I buy and build my bikes to ride and ride hard, if you do less that is your problem.

I have never said that a pipe/boiler welder could not weld, but most that I have met seem to think no one else can and if stick is so bad why is that the way bridges are welded.
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Triple Jim on February 09, 2016, 07:30:53 PM
...and if stick is so bad why is that the way bridges are welded.

There's nothing wrong with stick welding as a process at all, Cleatus.  I'm sure you know it's often used for simplicity (no fancy equipment needed), and when you need a lot of high-current penetration for big welds on heavy steel sections.  I stick welded this bending die a few decades ago.  It's 1/2" carbon steel.

(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c327/triplejim/Misc/misc_board_images/stick_welding_example_zps1vqzi0g9.jpg)

Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: cleatusj on February 09, 2016, 08:24:39 PM
This California sees more off pavement and off road than a majority of dual sport adventure bikes ever do. Last spring it ran all but the extreme expert single track of a dual sport off road challenge. The front knobby was what came with the KTM 640 front end and will be replaced with a DOT knobby. The sidecar keeps it off most single track.
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: jabberwocky on February 09, 2016, 08:40:30 PM
Those are some very ugly welds to be sure. There is a lot of weld area on that big gusset, and I can't imagine it actually breaking. But damn, if I had made those welds, I would paint it up, put the tank on, and never let anyone see them, much less put them up on a forum and look for praise.
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: cleatusj on February 09, 2016, 10:31:32 PM
Was not looking for praise, as I know how much abuse the vehicles and bikes that I've welded on have taken and have yet to have a structural weld failure.  Pretty does not mean the weld is strong.

Had I forgot how negative this forum can be at times, this thread would of damn sure reminded me.
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Kentktk on February 09, 2016, 10:58:23 PM
I have heard it said, that if you have to grind your welds after welding to make them look pretty, you are a grinder, not a welder...

I have heard same thing....lol
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: tazio on February 10, 2016, 12:47:42 AM
Points have been expressed regarding welds, repeatedly.

How about extra points for laying his work/passion out there for all to judge..

~cleatusj, have missed your stories around the campfire.
Fearless, dude. Keep rockin' those creative juices!

p.s. "dirt floor build" ~loved it.
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Doppelgaenger on February 10, 2016, 01:00:47 AM
Here's another welding concept someone came up with. Belonged to a guy that was known to burn out the rear tire till it exploded, then get off the bike and kick it over on it's side. I've also never heard a filthier mouth in my life. It's made of chopped up pieces of frame with rebar to hold it all together... it still ran like a champ

(http://i966.photobucket.com/albums/ae149/dopelgaenger/photo-2.jpg)
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Perazzimx14 on February 10, 2016, 04:49:23 AM
uh huh. you ran a sidecar rig on a singletrack.  sounds about right.

Must have been a narrow hack :whip2:
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 10, 2016, 07:19:00 AM
Must have been a narrow hack :whip2:

No, he said:
  Last spring it ran all but the extreme expert single track
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: 265coupe on February 11, 2016, 04:14:21 AM
Geez

Have you blokes forgotten about the spirit of adventure. Maybe you never knew it to forget it.

In Australia the name Cleatus is a synonym for hillbilly and I for one applaud the spirit of hillbilly. No rule books, no blueprints, just a genuine attitude of assess, adapt and overcome.

Seems that too many people are concerned that a loose sidecover screw or a failed dash bulb will create an 'unsafe situation' and likely result in the cataclysmic death of the user.

How about you give Cleatus a fair suck of the sav, leave him alone and go back to checking for dangerous electrolyte discharge in your Prius'.
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: cleatusj on February 11, 2016, 06:04:48 AM
Geez

Have you blokes forgotten about the spirit of adventure. Maybe you never knew it to forget it.

In Australia the name Cleatus is a synonym for hillbilly and I for one applaud the spirit of hillbilly. No rule books, no blueprints, just a genuine attitude of assess, adapt and overcome.

Seems that too many people are concerned that a loose sidecover screw or a failed dash bulb will create an 'unsafe situation' and likely result in the cataclysmic death of the user.

How about you give Cleatus a fair suck of the sav, leave him alone and go back to checking for dangerous electrolyte discharge in your Prius'.

That is understanding. Thanks.

If it was not for Auzzi build threads I mite have never built a rig.
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: GearheadGrrrl on February 11, 2016, 06:51:41 AM
Why?

If the forks were inches out of line, the whole frame is likely tweaked and maybe cracked too. Cali frames are plentiful and cheap, instead of playing with the welder and your life, fix it right with a known good frame and forks!
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Dean Rose on February 11, 2016, 07:03:32 AM
No!

He asked.


Dean

Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Wayne Orwig on February 11, 2016, 08:23:15 AM
Geez
Have you blokes forgotten about the spirit of adventure. Maybe you never knew it to forget it.
In Australia the name Cleatus is a synonym for hillbilly and I for one applaud the spirit of hillbilly. No rule books, no blueprints, just a genuine attitude of assess, adapt and overcome.
Seems that too many people are concerned that a loose sidecover screw or a failed dash bulb will create an 'unsafe situation' and likely result in the cataclysmic death of the user.
How about you give Cleatus a fair suck of the sav, leave him alone and go back to checking for dangerous electrolyte discharge in your Prius'.


:1:

Let him experiment. Meanwhile everyone else can go back to their oats. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Rebochi on February 11, 2016, 08:51:22 AM
   Hell no, Find someone who knows how to weld and have it done right.
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: kidneb on February 11, 2016, 10:06:42 AM
- if stick is so bad why is that the way bridges are welded.

Can`t find anyone here that postulates that stick welding is bad ? Only some that say they would not choose that method for this job.
As for bridge welding, apart from what Triple Jim mentions, stick welding has the useful quality of not being wind sensitive.



 
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Triple Jim on February 11, 2016, 10:12:21 AM
...apart from what Triple Jim mentions, stick welding has the useful quality of not being wind sensitive.

Good point, and something I don't normally think about.  And now that you mentioned it, stick welding can also non be water sensitive, like when it's used for underwater welding.
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: normzone on February 11, 2016, 10:35:47 AM
I thought I'd wait for all the furor to die down before venturing an opinion.

In a previous lifetime I inspected about a mile of welds over five years or so. It is possible to develop welds that are structurally sound but that cannot pass inspection vs a specification. These images are fuzzy enough that I would not begin to guess if they fall into that category.

As stated elsewhere in this thread, root development is key, and that can't be assessed from these images either. I think I'll vote with the grind, reset and reweld, or replace group.

My brother bought a trike once, and rode it happily around for several months. One day on the way home on the freeway the handling started feeling funny. He made it home, pulled it up onto the lawn, and the body separated from the front end, leaving him standing there holding the handlebars with the rest of the trike between his feet.
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: motrhead on February 11, 2016, 11:27:30 AM
I'm a journeyman welder, been at it 30 years...and I would trust them. Yeah, they aren't pretty, but it's stick, so you know there is some real penetration, and that big gusset makes up for any missed patches.
 I would be just as concerned about that other pic of the TIG welded tab...concave tiny little welds like so many TIG welders are doing...would have been better off with MIG to get a proper throat to the weld. TIG is pretty and strong, but slow. There is a reason factory frames are MIG welded. A respected frame builder chastised a bunch of racers and frame builders on one group I am on about our obsession with TIG on steel frames. Every production frame he ever made was migged. 
Bikers have been scabbing chopper frames and front ends together forever with stick, and the stories of bikes falling in half are few and far between. Steel is very forgiving and easy to work with. It's the factory aluminum frames you see snapping in half all the time...
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on February 11, 2016, 03:04:19 PM
I would be just as concerned about that other pic of the TIG welded tab...concave tiny little welds like so many TIG welders are doing...would have been better off with MIG to get a proper throat to the weld.

I can assure you there is absolutely no reason to be concerned about that "TIG welded tab". Curtis is well known in the dirt-track racing community, having built frames, gas tanks and other components for some of the top teams.
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Perazzimx14 on February 11, 2016, 03:30:34 PM
I'm a journeyman welder, been at it 30 years...and I would trust them. Yeah, they aren't pretty, but it's stick, so you know there is some real penetration, and that big gusset makes up for any missed patches.
 I would be just as concerned about that other pic of the TIG welded tab...concave tiny little welds like so many TIG welders are doing...would have been better off with MIG to get a proper throat to the weld. TIG is pretty and strong, but slow. There is a reason factory frames are MIG welded. A respected frame builder chastised a bunch of racers and frame builders on one group I am on about our obsession with TIG on steel frames. Every production frame he ever made was migged. 
Bikers have been scabbing chopper frames and front ends together forever with stick, and the stories of bikes falling in half are few and far between. Steel is very forgiving and easy to work with. It's the factory aluminum frames you see snapping in half all the time...

Globbing on weld with a MIG gun or stick doesn't make things stronger. Lots of chance of trapped flux/slag and porosity especially when you downhill. Most novice welders downhill because gravity pulls the puddleover the electrode and doesn't blow through the base metal. There are downhill welders and it is a speciality practice typically used in the pipeline industry. TIG is clean and there is little to no change of trapping flux/slag or having voids. Basically because there is no flux/slag created in the process and you can see if there are voids.

Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: cleatusj on February 11, 2016, 07:07:12 PM
Uphill with 7018 on 11 gauge with ac can easily lead to a reason to grind high spots and most likely blow through. I did have a couple. I do know that there was great penetration in the neck as it could easily be seen.
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: cleatusj on February 11, 2016, 10:51:27 PM
Other than the factory using mig, their welds were butts also.
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Mike Tashjian on February 12, 2016, 07:17:44 AM
Stick welding is one of the most versatile for your initial investment and is a great way to go on a budget.  With all that surface area, I just don't see a problem there.   Looks like a fun project.  Very interesting, keep riding and give us a progress report later in the season.  My money is on you won't have any problem.  Mike
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: pyoungbl on February 12, 2016, 08:41:09 AM
"A grinder and paint makes up for the welder I ain't"
Old proverb

Peter Y.
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on February 12, 2016, 11:18:39 AM
I can assure you there is absolutely no reason to be concerned about that "TIG welded tab". Curtis is well known in the dirt-track racing community, having built frames, gas tanks and other components for some of the top teams.

Plug for my friend Curtis:

An industry first for the Sportster aftermarket. This is a Flat Track race designed and inspired "Single Shock, Weld-On back half" section to allow the enthusiast to build the closest possible bike to a real XR750. Turns your Sporty into a serious street or track weapon. The kit is made using American (Plymouth) 4130 cro-moly tubing, TIG welded and comes with all hardware and instructions to complete installation and setup. Oil tanks and battery boxes are sold separately that are specifically designed for this kit. This kit raises the seat rail height for better rider position, shortens the Sportster's wheelbase by 2" and de-rakes the neck angle by 2 degrees. Base kit starts at $1999.99. Call the shop today 240-347-4663 M-F 10-6 EST

(https://scontent.fash1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfl1/v/t1.0-9/12729401_1021092007961921_2901869509644995180_n.jpg?oh=d771e98c5c9a98fc1720996c9ae65456&oe=5762B5DF)

(https://scontent.fash1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t1.0-9/12715215_1021092101295245_4723794627944032085_n.jpg?oh=36726605b0102c00f5ae294c5f26db6d&oe=572AC272)
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Triple Jim on February 12, 2016, 12:21:34 PM
Now there's a Harley that would be fun to have!
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: LaMojo on February 12, 2016, 07:11:51 PM
I'm surprised that no one has brought up the fact that the Guzzi frame is made of chrome molly steel.  To avoid cracking near the new welds, a certain amount of preheat is involved and slow cool down after the weld is complected.
   
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: oldbike54 on February 12, 2016, 07:35:29 PM
I'm surprised that no one has brought up the fact that the Guzzi frame is made of chrome molly steel.  To avoid cracking near the new welds, a certain amount of preheat is involved and slow cool down after the weld is complected.
 


 Hmm , I thought only some of the early Tonti special frames were CM , pretty sure the rest are just steel .

  Dusty
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Turin on February 12, 2016, 08:29:05 PM
What Dusty just said. the hand built V7sport Telio Rossos were chrome moly tubing. Everything else steel.
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: LaMojo on February 12, 2016, 09:13:39 PM
Chrome molly steel has been used in building MG frames for years and I think that includes the current models.  I know that the spine frame and California series were included as my 98 EV has a CM frame also.

   
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 13, 2016, 07:05:30 AM
Chrome molly steel has been used in building MG frames for years and I think that includes the current models.  I know that the spine frame and California series were included as my 98 EV has a CM frame also.

 

That surprises me. Do you have a source for that info? *Not* trying to be contentious..
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: LaMojo on February 13, 2016, 07:57:55 AM
When I bought my EV back in 98, having a chrome molly frame was an extra benefit of owning a Moto Guzzi.  I don't recall if it was in a sales brochure, owner's manual or just where.  That information may also be in two or three Guzzi books I have. I'll see what I can find..   In the mean time:    https://www.motointernational.com/about-moto-guzzi-motorcycles  (https://www.motointernational.com/about-moto-guzzi-motorcycles) andhttp://www.themotocycleshop.com/moto_guzzi/mg_used/mg_u_1998_V10_Centauro_Stock/mg_u_1998_V10_Centauro_Stock.htm (http://www.themotocycleshop.com/moto_guzzi/mg_used/mg_u_1998_V10_Centauro_Stock/mg_u_1998_V10_Centauro_Stock.htm)
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: LaMojo on February 13, 2016, 03:28:21 PM
In doing some quick research on Chrome molly frames:  The California series including the Bassa and Jackal lists FRAME: High tensile stress modular duplex cradle.  2010 California Vintage has the same spec.  My quota- FRAME:Double steel rectangular bar with double cradle.  The Centauro, Daytona, Sport specs FRAME: chrome molly steel frame.

I was wanting to do some welding on a Jackal a few years back but was cautioned at the time that it had a chrome molly frame so I backed off.  Other than a couple of reference supporting that,  I haven't found a direct link that the High tensile stress steel refers to chrome molly. 

Whatch think Chuck. 


   
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: cleatusj on February 13, 2016, 04:59:25 PM
If my '93 is cm it is the thickest I've ever seen. The tubes are the same thickness as my '76 Convert.
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 13, 2016, 06:53:26 PM
In doing some quick research on Chrome molly frames:  The California series including the Bassa and Jackal lists FRAME: High tensile stress modular duplex cradle.  2010 California Vintage has the same spec.  My quota- FRAME:Double steel rectangular bar with double cradle.  The Centauro, Daytona, Sport specs FRAME: chrome molly steel frame.

I was wanting to do some welding on a Jackal a few years back but was cautioned at the time that it had a chrome molly frame so I backed off.  Other than a couple of reference supporting that,  I haven't found a direct link that the High tensile stress steel refers to chrome molly. 

Whatch think Chuck. 
I'd say that High tensile stress steel is salesman speak for plain ol 1020.  :smiley: If you *do* have a Chrome moly frame to weld, use only gas or TIG with the appropriate filler rod.
I've only seen one failure on an aircraft weld, and it was arc welded. Stinson used to have a huge annealing furnace, and they had special dispensation from the FAA to arc weld their 4130 fuselage, put it in this really sturdy  :smiley: jig, roll it into the furnace, and stress relieve it.
Broke anyway in a fairly minor crash. I repaired it with ox acetylene.


   
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Muzz on February 13, 2016, 07:20:54 PM
I remember seeing a photo of the old 350SL Honda off roader they built. The guy was waaaay up in the air, he was standing on the pegs and the bike was about horizontal. The forks too were horizontal.....held to the bike with some wires and a couple of cables. Don't know if he survived the landing but I think it would have ended in tears. :cry: :cry:

The first of them were made with chrome moly before anyone knew of the pitfalls; I gather they went back to normal steel after that. One guy who desert raced them reckoned he had written off three frames and had yet to blow a motor.  :shocked: Don't know whether that one is true or not. :undecided:
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: motrhead on February 13, 2016, 10:31:39 PM
Globbing on weld with a MIG gun or stick doesn't make things stronger. Lots of chance of trapped flux/slag and porosity especially when you downhill. Most novice welders downhill because gravity pulls the puddleover the electrode and doesn't blow through the base metal. There are downhill welders and it is a speciality practice typically used in the pipeline industry. TIG is clean and there is little to no change of trapping flux/slag or having voids. Basically because there is no flux/slag created in the process and you can see if there are voids.

 Ok, background: I've been a pressure welder, production welder, mig, tig , whatever...lots of aluminum, stainless, 8620 etc, etc...no titanium though since school...just so you know where I am coming from. I used to build trailers...thousand s of them, and they were all MIG welded. Guess what direction we weld vertical with MIG? Down. I had Ford training to stretch motorhome frames...with MIG. I would never have chosen that process myself, but Ford did. MIG is holding the world together. It is the most commonly used process there is...and yes I ran my share of big flux core building industrial gearboxes, truck axles, big trailers etc.  I much prefer fabricating to welding any day, but over the years I have done most processes.  Welding pipe is the most boring tedious job going! LOL.
 TIG is for the choice for alloys and is nice for aluminum (though I did a lot of production welding aluminum with a spool gun down to 14 gauge, and stainless with a push pull gun) and extremely thin sections, but it is not needed for plain old 1018 or 1045 material (like an old Italian bike frame). Yes, TIG is clean, and pretty, and if you really can't weld and need to be 100% sure you got it right, by all means go ahead. But it is hardly necessary on mild steel. As long as you aren't getting cold lap, a MIG weld is a good weld.
 I am serious about the poor profile of most TIG welds. Remember that TIG filler rod is a plain old 70K tensile material, same as 7018 electrodes or ER70-S6 wire. I would rather have a 100% MIG bead than a 60 percent TIG bead on plain steel. If a welder is proficient with TIG  and takes the time to get a proper weld profile it is the ultimate, but it is slow (especially when you have to set up backpurging like with stainless).
 I do recommend that anyone welding their own bike frames go take a course at the local community college to get the basics down and make sure their welds are penetrating properly and not cold lapping...but it isn't rocket science!
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: cleatusj on February 13, 2016, 11:15:56 PM
motrhead, I will admit to not having any formal training, but I did pass certification for vertical up, after only running four or five  joints that way. When I started welding, I ran all vertical joints down hill for years, before I was able to watch someone weld up hill.
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: motrhead on February 13, 2016, 11:34:59 PM
motrhead, I will admit to not having any formal training, but I did pass certification for vertical up, after only running four or five  joints that way. When I started welding, I ran all vertical joints down hill for years, before I was able to watch someone weld up hill.

 Mig is generally run downhill unless it is a large weld. I only go up with stick...
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: cleatusj on February 13, 2016, 11:51:43 PM
Stick I s what we use on a boom lift welding clips on buildings for wind load for curtain wall glazing frames.
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Calijackalbob on February 14, 2016, 01:03:58 PM
The welding looks robust enough for me, I just think that when all's said and done, after an impact hard enough to break forks and twist the headstem, the rest of the frame will be bent, warped, twisted, somewhere or everywhere. I wouldn't trust that. If it was me, I'd be buying another bike with a trashed motor and switching the donks.

GOOD LUCK !  :Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: cleatusj on August 18, 2016, 05:25:08 PM
Update. After a couple thousand miles, with a third being rough gravel, no cracks or movement can be found, even with heavy magnification. Many of those miles were with the chair in the air.

The rig is handling better than it did stock. JFYI
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on August 18, 2016, 05:59:59 PM
  :shocked: So you mean the doubters were wrong ??? :laugh:

 Dusty
Wasn't me. I said..
Quote
I would say not pretty but stuck. :smiley:  A stick welder would be the last method I'd choose for that job, though.
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: cleatusj on August 18, 2016, 06:00:37 PM
Did not say that, besides they will make up their own minds any way.  :violent1:
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: oldbike54 on August 18, 2016, 06:14:03 PM
 Since we have refired this thread , someone please clear up the chrome moly issue . My understanding is that only the early V7 Sports had moly frames , everything else is built from regular steel . Yeah I know what certain experts say , but there seems to be some uncertainty .

 Dusty
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: tazio on August 18, 2016, 07:50:34 PM
Mr.cleatusj,
My first vocation is welding, second one is machine tool technology.
I'd go for a fly in your chair anytime..
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: swooshdave on August 18, 2016, 08:16:58 PM
I did not ask a one of you to trust my welds, but I sure trust them over half the great looking mig welds I've watched others lay down. I have no doubt as to the penetration.  The neck is straighter than several stock Guzzi frames that the factory chose to sell.

I buy and build my bikes to ride and ride hard, if you do less that is your problem.

I have never said that a pipe/boiler welder could not weld, but most that I have met seem to think no one else can and if stick is so bad why is that the way bridges are welded.

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: lucky phil on August 18, 2016, 09:03:00 PM

(http://thumb.ibb.co/bY0faa/suzuki_xr69_7_690x459.jpg) (http://ibb.co/bY0faa)


TIG,MIG..... Pha, give me this for Chrome Molly any day. Welding art.

Ciao
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: rodekyll on August 18, 2016, 09:04:43 PM
lol
What part of this weld job was a bridge?

I'm not suggesting anything about stick welding or if it was the right tool for this job, and yes, I would trust your welds -- they're better than mine, and mine work.  But unless mild steel hollow tubing is bridge material, I don't think the argument works.
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: charlie b on August 19, 2016, 08:37:15 AM
I have to laugh a bit.  My welding looks like Cletus'.  And, yes, sometimes I have to grind it back down and lay another bead cause there wasn't enough penetration the first time.  I don't care how it looks as long as it is a good joint.  I do tend to avoid 7018 rod cause it has to be kept in an oven or airtight container to keep moisture out of it, but, it is a good choice for the job.

Why a stick instead of MIG?  Cause I have been too cheap to buy a MIG or TIG.  :)  Got my Craftsman box from my father-in-law years ago and it works.  And, yes, I have used gas, but, I am not good at it.  I wish I was better.  Someday...maybe...

I'd love to be as good as some of the women during WWII.  Seeing the bead of aluminum along the wing fillet of a P51, done with gas, is just beautiful.
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on August 19, 2016, 09:26:31 AM
I have to laugh a bit.  My welding looks like Cletus'.  And, yes, sometimes I have to grind it back down and lay another bead cause there wasn't enough penetration the first time.  I don't care how it looks as long as it is a good joint.  I do tend to avoid 7018 rod cause it has to be kept in an oven or airtight container to keep moisture out of it, but, it is a good choice for the job.

Why a stick instead of MIG?  Cause I have been too cheap to buy a MIG or TIG.  :)  Got my Craftsman box from my father-in-law years ago and it works.  And, yes, I have used gas, but, I am not good at it.  I wish I was better.  Someday...maybe...

I'd love to be as good as some of the women during WWII.  Seeing the bead of aluminum along the wing fillet of a P51, done with gas, is just beautiful.

I've done a little of it. It's done with oxy hydrogen and special goggles. You really have to move fast.  :smiley: Some of the best ox acetylene welding I've ever seen is on the fuselages of Taylorcraft aircraft of the 30s and 40s. There were two guys that did it, and it is truly beautiful. 
Title: Re: would you trust these welds....
Post by: CapitalGoose on August 19, 2016, 09:41:58 AM
Those look pretty nice to me.