Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: ohiorider on February 16, 2016, 06:10:57 AM
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Think I heard this years ago from a good BMW wrench. It looks like they have finally decided to go with a wet, multi-plate clutch mounted on the front of water cooled boxer twin. After seeing Beemers in my favorite shop with frames crabbed, final drive and tranny removed to replace a failed clutch (or seals that allowed oil onto the dry plate clutch,) seems like they're onto something. This isn't unique to Boxer twins, as I recall having seen many pics over the past several years of Guzzis hanging from the rafters, engine dropped, to do a similar clutch repair. I wonder if Guzzi, in a future iteration of the venerable V twin, might choose to take a similar path?
The assumption here is that the front mounted clutch could be removed and replaced without disturbing the tranny or final drive. I believe the new water boxer utilize a unit construction engine and transmission.
I'm sure there's some downsides to their new design. Any thoughts?
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worked for honda with the cx500.
obviously having to take apart an entire bike to get to the clutch has always been one of the weak points of our design. To get the clutch up front, you have to raise the CG. everything has a cost.
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It does seem to be a clever solution to the problem, though I'm sure it's not without its own compromises.
But I like the idea for sure.
Actually I was just looking at this video breakdown of the new wet-head R1200 motor/drivetrain the other day. You might enjoy it too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R817so8zhUY&feature=youtu.be
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"The refinement of MG engines" was brought up last August.
Clutch up front like some beemers was my suggestion. Still is.
Riders I know bring this up to me OFTEN.
The sight of a crabbed bike
can make grown men cry..
(Yet, someone like Wayne will tackle it just for therapy)Lol.
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A properly designed and built clutch should be something that does not require regular tears downs and repairs.
Yes, the new BMW clutch is mounted on the front of the boxer engines. It incorporates more complication, a shaft turning inside a shaft to route power transmission to and from the front clutch.
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Talking about hanging from a string, during design of the previous 1200 boxer, BMW was shooting to reduce the weight of the bike by a designated amount of kilos.
They actually hung a bag of sand or weight of that target amount from a rope in the design room to motivate the extreme weight savings obsession of the designers. Lots of plastic and shaved parts used!
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It incorporates more complication
From BMW? Shirley, you jest. :smiley:
Crabbing the frame on a Guzzi is really no... big... deal. *Assuming* no rusted fasteners that have to be cave manned out, a guy can have the transmission out in about 2 hours. Not much labor for something that only has to be done maybe once in 100000 miles.
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It does seem to be a clever solution to the problem, though I'm sure it's not without its own compromises.
But I like the idea for sure.
Actually I was just looking at this video breakdown of the new wet-head R1200 motor/drivetrain the other day. You might enjoy it too:
Thanks!
Bob
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R817so8zhUY&feature=youtu.be
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How often do you need to change the clutch on a bike? And crabbing the frame is ssoooo much easier than adjusting the valves on a lot of bikes. Even my Honda NT700 took longer to adjust the valves than crabbing the frame on the goose.
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If I saw it correctly in the animation, notice that yes, the clutch has been moved to the front, but the alternator is now moved to the rear. How accessible is it?
Tobit
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What does "crabbing the frame" mean?
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What does "crabbing the frame" mean?
It's a method of picking up the rear of the motorcycle and pivoting it around the front lower motor mount bolt. Put a 2x4 between the valve covers, and the frame sits there with the transmission exposed.
Pete (as far as I know) coined the term, and did a tutorial. From memory, it's hosted on thisoldtractor.
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v382/twhitaker/California_crab.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/twhitaker/media/California_crab.jpg.html)
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If I saw it correctly in the animation, notice that yes, the clutch has been moved to the front, but the alternator is now moved to the rear. How accessible is it?
Tobit
I think you're right that it's on the rear of the crankshaft. But because the power is not being pulled from the rear of the crankshaft there's not transmission in the way and there's an access cover there. The question is of course as you asked, how easy is it to get to that cover. Good question.
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Crabbing the frame on a Guzzi is really no... big... deal.
There is that damn airbox on the late model Tontis. What a pain.
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I get the "joy" of doing the clutch on Nick's EV soon. Not looking forward to it, even less so with Wayne's comment above.
I'd much rather do the job on a Loopframe - much simpler IMO, no crabbing or hanging anything from the ceiling. The chassis just sits there on it's front wheel and centerstand, engine tilted forward.
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While I think the "string" thing is hilarious and have never dealt with the BMW clutch, I can say that dealing with "dropping" a Guzzi power pack has never really presented as unduly tedious or time consuming in any perceived extraneous labor.
Sure, it takes longer than a two wheel drive truck but I've dealt with so many other clutch situations which were very much worse. Also, there're a bunch of other things one can attend to while this is going on.
Probably, the only thing which stands out as annoying is dealing with exhaust systems but I can't stand dealing with them on any vehicle - for any reason.
Todd.
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It does seem to be a clever solution to the problem, though I'm sure it's not without its own compromises.
But I like the idea for sure.
Actually I was just looking at this video breakdown of the new wet-head R1200 motor/drivetrain the other day. You might enjoy it too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R817so8zhUY&feature=youtu.be
Thanks for the link, Kev. Unfortunately, my projects never seem to go together that smoothly.
Aside from maintenance, are there any mechanical, design or weight savings advantages? Maybe with the higher hp newer engines, clutch replacement is more of an issue than the older beemers
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Sure, it takes longer than a two wheel drive truck but I've dealt with so many other clutch situations which were very much worse.
Like front wheel drive clutch jobs. Pretty close to removing the car from the motor on many of those.
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Like front wheel drive clutch jobs. Pretty close to removing the car from the motor on many of those.
Yup, I think possibly the worst was either a VW or Ford Escort which I had volunteered to help out a friend with. Crimeny! I was all but begging him to sell the car partway through.
Things like that; Kenworths, 4WDs and the like, make sitting on a stool next to a Guzzi, in a pleasant environment a nearly relaxing experience if time is not an issue.
Todd.
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Many of the responses in this thread assume the owner, not a shop, is going to do the clutch repair/replacement. What if ..... a not-so-good wrench decided to take a Norge 2v, for example, to a quality Guzzi shop to have the clutch replaced. Forget the cost of parts for a moment. Does anyone know what the average flat rate would be for a shop to replace the clutch .... ie how many hours on average would a shop charge for labor? And would $100.00/hour be an average going rate?
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Yes, the new BMW clutch is mounted on the front of the boxer engines. It incorporates more complication, a shaft turning inside a shaft to route power transmission to and from the front clutch.
From the video, the clutch is gear driven off of the front of the crank. The clutch output goes to a drive line shock absorber near the starter motor in the rear. The only shaft inside that shaft, would be the clutch release pushrod. A standard thing.
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If I saw it correctly in the animation, notice that yes, the clutch has been moved to the front, but the alternator is now moved to the rear. How accessible is it?
And worse. The animation implies that it is a permanent magnet alternator. I'm not a fan of those.
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Does anyone know what the average flat rate would be for a shop to replace the clutch .... ie how many hours on average would a shop charge for labor? And would $100.00/hour be an average going rate?
I know of a Stelvio that just got a new clutch...10 hours labor.
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Many of the responses in this thread assume the owner, not a shop, is going to do the clutch repair/replacement. What if ..... a not-so-good wrench decided to take a Norge 2v, for example, to a quality Guzzi shop to have the clutch replaced. Forget the cost of parts for a moment. Does anyone know what the average flat rate would be for a shop to replace the clutch .... ie how many hours on average would a shop charge for labor? And would $100.00/hour be an average going rate?
Given the huge differences in what dealers charge, best to call one or several and know for sure.
My Norge has been one of the least expensive bike for dealer service. Everything is negotiable. You can get ballpark prices here but often they bear little relationship to what you'll actually pay, its often much less in my experience.
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Modern bikes are as complicated as cars, but less of it so to speak....And a clutch change on a newer car/truck is usually an involved job and not inexpensive especially with all wheel drive.
Do you think BMW for example changed the location of it's bike clutch for servicing or was it because a packaging/engineering concerns ?
On the Guzzi, is clutch life shorter than other bikes of similar weight and power?
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Crabbing is a term used to describe out of alignment wheels where the bike goes down the road slightly skewed, hence the "crab" and also when you see a bike that wallows through a turn where it looks like ends are trying to swap.
Here is is used to describe a repair procedure but most riders know of the other application of the term.
The term crabbing when it comes to motorcycles has been around for at least 40 years if not more.
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Many of the responses in this thread assume the owner, not a shop, is going to do the clutch repair/replacement. What if ..... a not-so-good wrench decided to take a Norge 2v, for example, to a quality Guzzi shop to have the clutch replaced. Forget the cost of parts for a moment. Does anyone know what the average flat rate would be for a shop to replace the clutch .... ie how many hours on average would a shop charge for labor? And would $100.00/hour be an average going rate?
My little bro Jay is a pretty good wrench and has an extensive shop, and he still chose to gave a shop do the clutch on the B11... I'm thinking it was over $1k, not sure what was parts and labor though. Maybe he'll chime in.
In contrast I can do the wet clutch on the Harley for something like $100-200 in parts, and labor is a few hours. It's just one side (primary) cover that has to be removed.
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A bmw guru and long time friend says the reason for the wet clutch has a lot to do with their perpetually noisy transmissions, BTW: Getrag builds their Trans. & final drives. Apparently there is not enough drag on the gear train in normal operation and balk rings and gears jiggle back and get ahead of the next shift. It causes all manner of racket. Stethoscope one running on a center stand. It's amazing. The wet clutch will limit that. They previously have tried O rings between the gears! A rather sloppy engineering(?) choice, in my view. R3~
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My little bro Jay is a pretty good wrench and has an extensive shop, and he still chose to gave a shop do the clutch on the B11... I'm thinking it was over $1k, not sure what was parts and labor though. Maybe he'll chime in.
In contrast I can do the wet clutch on the Harley for something like $100-200 in parts, and labor is a few hours. It's just one side (primary) cover that has to be removed.
The labor was about $1,400 to replace the clutch in my Breva 1100.
Norge should be the same, maybe more due to more tupperware.
By contrast, a clutch replacement on nearly any Japanese bike with the clutch under a side cover of the motor/transmission can be done in a couple of hours.
I'd say that design change to the the new Boxer was done to make the clutch more accessible.
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And worse. The animation implies that it is a permanent magnet alternator. I'm not a fan of those.
And, what's wrong with a permanent magnet alternator?
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Many of the responses in this thread assume the owner, not a shop, is going to do the clutch repair/replacement. What if ..... a not-so-good wrench decided to take a Norge 2v, for example, to a quality Guzzi shop to have the clutch replaced. Forget the cost of parts for a moment. Does anyone know what the average flat rate would be for a shop to replace the clutch .... ie how many hours on average would a shop charge for labor? And would $100.00/hour be an average going rate?
Good point but of course, one of the general truisms about Guzzi ownership is the hands-on nature of the experience.
From the point of view of this ^^^ post - it would be rather frightening to have some "sure, I can do that..." guy take on one of my Geese clutches. Both in expense and opportunities to muck up other componentry necessarily toyed with in a clutch replacement.
Given the horror stories about guys having an MG shop mess up valve adjustments, oil changes and initial bike set-up... the clutch could be a nightmare!
Todd.
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Crabbing is a term used to describe out of alignment wheels where the bike goes down the road slightly skewed, hence the "crab" and also when you see a bike that wallows through a turn where it looks like ends are trying to swap.
Here is is used to describe a repair procedure but most riders know of the other application of the term.
The term crabbing when it comes to motorcycles has been around for at least 40 years if not more.
True, in fact, in motor-vehicle terms, I've only ever considered "crabbing" to be a clutch term for our bikes, some tractors, etc...
Dog-tracking is what I've always known the outa-line nature of vehicles to be.
Now, "crab-walking" is one of my favored terms for communications styles favored by; politicians, car salesmen and activists of most any ilk.
Todd.
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In addition to the easy clutch service (should it be necessary) they've eliminated the need to pull the transmission for spline lube services too.
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cBob , I asked for a clutch replacement quote on a '98 EV after performing the job for a friend . This was in 2003 , the shop in Tulsa gave a figure of $450.00 labor .
Dusty
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The labor was about $1,400 to replace the clutch in my Breva 1100.
Norge should be the same, maybe more due to more tupperware.
By contrast, a clutch replacement on nearly any Japanese bike with the clutch under a side cover of the motor/transmission can be done in a couple of hours.
I'd say that design change to the the new Boxer was done to make the clutch more accessible.
I found a Kevin Cameron article on the new boxer. He commented that (one of) the reasons for going with the multi plate wet clutch was that the new bikes run slipper clutches. I interpreted that as meaning the clutch is designed to slip slightly if the rider downshifts without bringing the rpm up to road speed for the downshift. He indicated it was a heat/wear thing. Don't think he commented on the ease or lack thereof of the front mounted clutch, but it would only make sense that having it on the front of the engine would make changing plate(s) simpler.
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What could possibly go wrong.............. ................... ...........
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Z4UO5AE_rZc/VEreDpgiMaI/AAAAAAAAJTk/tkVoDYRT390/s1600/tumblr_mimzj198Ww1rgpwp0o1_500.jpg)
:cool:
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I was able to purchase my BMW K75s inexpensively, because the PO was not mechanical and had a very large labor estimate, which included removal of transmission. I bought a second, parts bike, for my project and totally disassembled it - which gave me an appreciation for the thinking behind that motorcycle.
I think the big car-like clutches in the BMWs and Guzzis make a lot of sense. They go for a long time - but failure can render an older bike nearly worthless to someone who can't do the repair themselves. Unlike a wet clutch, the friction material cannot get mixed with the engine and/or transmission oil, which seems like an advantage over some wet clutches (as in my Husqvarna). Long service intervals are another advantage.
Back to the title of this thread - the "design around a clutch" thing sounds like urban legend to me. I would assume that they first determine the orientation of the engine, which basically dictates the clutch location.
That being said, the BMW bricks have a really cool feature - the clutch goes the opposite direction of the crankshaft - and they invested the weight of a rather substantial gear to make that happen.
I'm about to double-down on the joys of Guzzi clutch replacement: to get rid of the stock single-plate in the Scura and replace slipping plates in the LeMans.
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Think I heard this years ago from a good BMW wrench. It looks like they have finally decided to go with a wet, multi-plate clutch mounted on the front of water cooled boxer twin. After seeing Beemers in my favorite shop with frames crabbed, final drive and tranny removed to replace a failed clutch (or seals that allowed oil onto the dry plate clutch,) seems like they're onto something. This isn't unique to Boxer twins, as I recall having seen many pics over the past several years of Guzzis hanging from the rafters, engine dropped, to do a similar clutch repair. I wonder if Guzzi, in a future iteration of the venerable V twin, might choose to take a similar path?
The assumption here is that the front mounted clutch could be removed and replaced without disturbing the tranny or final drive. I believe the new water boxer utilize a unit construction engine and transmission.
I'm sure there's some downsides to their new design. Any thoughts?
It's a great design. My 2013 GS is the best bike I have owned. Course she's been recalled twice. Little things. As much as I like the bike it could never take the place of my Guzzi's.
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What could possibly go wrong.............. ................... ...........
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Z4UO5AE_rZc/VEreDpgiMaI/AAAAAAAAJTk/tkVoDYRT390/s1600/tumblr_mimzj198Ww1rgpwp0o1_500.jpg)
:cool:
It doesn't always go wrong ... :wink:
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n284/bcgilligan/Reg%20Pridmore%20163_zpsggv5ikov.jpg) (http://s115.photobucket.com/user/bcgilligan/media/Reg%20Pridmore%20163_zpsggv5ikov.jpg.html)
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Thanks for the pictures on how to pull the trans on my EVT. Looks much easier than I thought it would be.
Tom
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A properly designed and built clutch should be something that does not require regular tears downs.
If you can actually design a good clutch - remembering that on the
R1150R the input shaft is about 10mm to short and doesn't go all
the way through the Clutch Centre leading to major probs. that can
happen anywhere/anytime from as low as 26k miles.
Then if you add a Final Drive that's built to fail - again anytime from
26k> and an Injection System that has specialist's shaking their heads
and saying WTF! why did they do that - that has no chance of working,
and you can only conclude there is nothing, absolutely nothing special
about BMW designs.
Perhaps they realised they overstepped their Designed Obsolescence
Program - perhaps not. Taking into account the extra complexity of
later models plus the overload of electronics which is ripe with
opportunities for future revenue, many have turned their backs
on BMW and will never go back.
Maurie.
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It looks like they have finally decided to go with a wet, multi-plate clutch mounted on the front of water cooled boxer twin.
Finally done it!!....yep about 3 or 4 years ago.
Generally I find the V11 to be a PITA to work on quite frankly. Valve adjustment and spark plug changes are about the only genuinely easy things.
You can have a Ducati Belt engine out, on the bench and stripped and working on the gearbox way faster than you can get the Guzzi lump out and separated from the engine. Oh and the Ducati box works better and lasts longer.
Ciao
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The labor was about $1,400 to replace the clutch in my Breva 1100.
Norge should be the same, maybe more due to more tupperware.
I've replaced a clutch on an EV Touring, but never on a Breva/Norge/1200 Sports. I can't see how the frame could be crabbed on these models, I imagine the engine and gearbox has to be removed to gain access to the clutch.
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I've replaced a clutch on an EV Touring, but never on a Breva/Norge/1200 Sports. I can't see how the frame could be crabbed on these models, I imagine the engine and gearbox has to be removed to gain access to the clutch.
I do know that when I see oilhead and newer Beemer boxers on a lift getting a clutch change, the engine is still bolted into the frame, and the rear subframe appears to be pivoted upward, permitting access to the clutch without removing the engine from the frame. That appears to be a huge PITA, but having to lift the frame off the engine would seem to be a PITA+. Of course, how big a PITA would be determined by how many times the mechanic has performed the job. After a few times, either procedure (crabbing the frame or dropping the engine and tranny) would probably seem to be routine.
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And, what's wrong with a permanent magnet alternator?
You need series or shunt thyristors, since you can't control the field. In series, you lose a bit of voltage to heat, and the thyristors have to withstand a pretty high voltage when off. So they are expensive and less reliable than simple diodes. In shunt, everything gets hot. The thyristors get hot, the alternator gets hot. And everything between the alternator and regulator runs at maximum current, all of the time. Again making it a bit less reliable.
It can be done obviously, it is just a bit more difficult and potentially less reliable..
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If you can actually design a good clutch - remembering that on the
R1150R the input shaft is about 10mm to short and doesn't go all
the way through the Clutch Centre leading to major probs. that can
happen anywhere/anytime from as low as 26k miles.
Then if you add a Final Drive that's built to fail - again anytime from
26k> and an Injection System that has specialist's shaking their heads
and saying WTF! why did they do that - that has no chance of working,
and you can only conclude there is nothing, absolutely nothing special
about BMW designs.
Perhaps they realised they overstepped their Designed Obsolescence
Program - perhaps not. Taking into account the extra complexity of
later models plus the overload of electronics which is ripe with
opportunities for future revenue, many have turned their backs
on BMW and will never go back.
Maurie.
Umm . . . as diplomatically as I can say this, "No."
Best,
Carlo
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What could possibly go wrong.............. ................... ...........
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Z4UO5AE_rZc/VEreDpgiMaI/AAAAAAAAJTk/tkVoDYRT390/s1600/tumblr_mimzj198Ww1rgpwp0o1_500.jpg)
:cool:
Why you should always tighten your exhaust pipe clamps,....... to keep your cylinders from falling out.
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And I had thought the rider was simply trying to reduce power as he came to a stop.
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You need series or shunt thyristors, since you can't control the field. In series, you lose a bit of voltage to heat, and the thyristors have to withstand a pretty high voltage when off. So they are expensive and less reliable than simple diodes. In shunt, everything gets hot. The thyristors get hot, the alternator gets hot. And everything between the alternator and regulator runs at maximum current, all of the time. Again making it a bit less reliable.
It can be done obviously, it is just a bit more difficult and potentially less reliable..
Turbojet and Turbine aircraft engines all use PMA`s in conjunction with DC generators for aircraft electrical power. I wouldn`t think they would use them if they had less reliability of any sort.
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Yup, I think possibly the worst was either a VW or Ford Escort which I had volunteered to help out a friend with. Crimeny! I was all but begging him to sell the car partway through.
Things like that; Kenworths, 4WDs and the like, make sitting on a stool next to a Guzzi, in a pleasant environment a nearly relaxing experience if time is not an issue.
Todd.
I know you mean the later FWD VWs, but 45 years ago I lost a bet with a VW mechanic that he could have the engine out of my '66 Bug in 5 minutes. This exposed the clutch and removing that took another 2-3 minutes. Amazed me, that's for sure.
Ralph
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I've done quite a few Tonti clutches, always a bit of a pain but not the worst thing, except for those damned airboxes on the injected Californias.
I think I'd prefer the clutch be where it is or have a transverse crank bike. At least on a Guzzi.
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I know you mean the later FWD VWs, but 45 years ago I lost a bet with a VW mechanic that he could have the engine out of my '66 Bug in 5 minutes. This exposed the clutch and removing that took another 2-3 minutes. Amazed me, that's for sure.
Ralph
I used to attend the "Bug Out" VW shows in Manassas, VA back in the '80s. One scheduled event was the engine swap competition. The winner took just under 15 mins. to remove the engine, reinstall the engine start it up and drive it away.
My brother could have a 4 spd. out of an early Rabbit in less than 1/2 hour. The 5 spd. in my '93 Eurovan took hours... :angry:
Related to the subject line: Mercedes W114/W115 owners joke about the heater fan being hung by a wire on the assembly line and the rest of the car assembled around it. Horrible job to replace it and they are prone to failure after only 30 years of service. :wink:
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LOL, my father-in-law had a 60's VW van. He got to where he could get the engine out of one in about 15min. He'd slide under, undo the bolts, rest the engine on his chest and slide out.
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By contrast, a clutch replacement on nearly any Japanese bike with the clutch under a side cover of the motor/transmission can be done in a couple of hours.
And the dry clutch of a Ducati in about 10 minutes...
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And the dry clutch of a Ducati in about 10 minutes...
Yep, super easy to do on the Cagiva 650 Elefant I owned for a while.
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And the dry clutch of a Ducati in about 10 minutes...
10 minutes.....you must have stopped for a Latte'
Ciao
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I do know that when I see oilhead and newer Beemer boxers on a lift getting a clutch change, the engine is still bolted into the frame, and the rear subframe appears to be pivoted upward, permitting access to the clutch without removing the engine from the frame. That appears to be a huge PITA, but having to lift the frame off the engine would seem to be a PITA+. Of course, how big a PITA would be determined by how many times the mechanic has performed the job. After a few times, either procedure (crabbing the frame or dropping the engine and tranny) would probably seem to be routine.
And contrary to most comments about the matter, there are mechanics working at dealerships who do know what they are doing, even on MG bikes and can and do perform excellent work, as good as anyone else bar none. Of course that means finding them but then that is true of anything.
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I'm sure there's some downsides to their new design. Any thoughts?
It's surely a great design if Honda came to it 35 years before.
The downside is that, having a front placed clutch, and then a shaft that runs parallel to the crankshaft, being all the rest equal, will ever be heavier than an "all in line" configuration (here the comparison obviously is not with the Guzzi big block, that's heavy for other reasons, but rather with the SB). Infact the CX were good bikes, but way heavier than the Guzzi SB of the same class (all the models weighted well above 200 kg).
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Umm . . . as diplomatically as I can say this, "No."
Best,
Carlo
Diplomacy ??? ……… Hmmmm. Not familiar with that term,
I'm Australian. :wink:
You have the perfect right to believe whatever you want to
believe, I'm only relating my personal experiences and those
of two people I personally know - a rather high strike rate.
I wish you the very best of luck and hope you don't
experience any of the things we have.
Cheers Maurie.