Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Travlr on February 24, 2016, 12:42:00 PM
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There are some 8V flat tappet bikes I like better than the later roller models.
A Griso SE for instance.
But I'm reluctant to purchase a flat tappet bike for obvious reasons.
Just gathering some thoughts on rather to purchase and what the cost would be to convert.
Mike
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Just curious, whats not to like about a SE? color or spokes?
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In a word: NO.
If I were to buy a Griso, it would be an 1100 (2V(4V) motor), or 8V that came from the factory with rollers.
Same goes for a Norge, 2V(4V) or 8V roller.
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Here is a cam box from my Stelvio 8V with about 21K miles.
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g221/Jdcooperclan/Tappet%20face%202_zpsprdwc0bg.jpg) (http://s57.photobucket.com/user/Jdcooperclan/media/Tappet%20face%202_zpsprdwc0bg.jpg.html)
The cam face looked like this:
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g221/Jdcooperclan/cam%20face_zpskj6z94ue.jpg) (http://s57.photobucket.com/user/Jdcooperclan/media/cam%20face_zpskj6z94ue.jpg.html)
If you buy it, consider a few things:
- they will ALL fail eventually
- sometimes MG will comp you the kit (which runs about $1400 retail)
- the labor goes at 12 or13 hours.
I would bargain a lower price using these facts. Good luck, Mate.
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In a word: NO.
If I were to buy a Griso, it would be an 1100 (2V(4V) motor), or 8V that came from the factory with rollers.
Same goes for a Norge, 2V(4V) or 8V roller.
:1:
In two words. HELL no.
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Just curious, whats not to like about a SE? color or spokes?
I think he's saying he LIKES the early SE. Probably the Tenni Green from 2011-2012
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I liked it too, until I started reading up on this problem. I ended up buying a '13 SE to avoid the headache never mind the expense.
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No.
NEVER.
Not in a billion years. I'd rather gnaw my own foot off.
My Griso had FIVE sets of cam gear, which lasted on average a few thousand miles. All on warranty, but it was still a right royal painus in the anus. Never again. Rollers all the way.
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The asking price would have to be low enough that with adding in the price of the roller retrofit kit, it would still be a deal...of course, if one isn't mechanically inclined, then the cost of the install labor must be added in, as well....I've seen some nice used MG bikes for sale that could be rollerized (by the owner) and still be less money than used factory used models....I would use the cost of the appropriate roller kit as a bargaining chip in price negotiations...an uniformed buyer might pay the asking price up front, but the knowledgeable Guzzi fan should be armed with the facts...IMHO
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I would. Two caveats however:
Pre purchase inspection required by a dealer of your choice. If the tappets look like this:
(http://i84.servimg.com/u/f84/18/91/78/64/image11.jpg)
Plus there is a service history? Say yes with the cost of the kit and labour factored in.
If they look like this:
(http://i84.servimg.com/u/f84/18/91/78/64/image12.jpg)
Run away.
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I think he's saying he LIKES the early SE. Probably the Tenni Green from 2011-2012
That is correct!
Mike
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In a word: NO.
If I were to buy a Griso, it would be an 1100 (2V(4V) motor), or 8V that came from the factory with rollers.
Same goes for a Norge, 2V(4V) or 8V roller.
So , this (2V(4V) motor , only imported to Pennsylvania ? :huh:
Dusty
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We should talk...... :grin:
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There is a griso SE for sale here in NZ with tappets that are bad. It's on the local trademe website. the owner is starting bidding at $1000.
I'm almost keen to take the risk that the damage is only in the heads, but he is saying that tappets were fine one day, and then a month later they were not. So I take that as the engine damage is terminal.
Everything else is as new..
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There is a griso SE for sale here in NZ with tappets that are bad. It's on the local trademe website. the owner is starting bidding at $1000.
I'm almost keen to take the risk that the damage is only in the heads, but he is saying that tappets were fine one day, and then a month later they were not. So I take that as the engine damage is terminal.
Everything else is as new..
Tell him the bottom end is most likely gone, offer him $500 cash.
You could always part it out. :boozing:
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Quite honestly I wouldn't buy ANY 4 valve per cylinder Guzzi.
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What Beetle says.
or
Low kms, low price and factor in the cost to have it rollered.
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If you buy it, consider a few things:
- the labor goes at 12 or13 hours.
WOW. Are the hours in fact that high?
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And rollers started when?
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Installed mid - 2012 production.
Labor should be closer to 4 hours.
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Installed mid - 2012 production.
Labor should be closer to 4 hours.
:thumb:
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I charge 3-4hrs, any more is gouging.
Road Mike's old Stelvio today after dialing it all in, turned out nice, fueling on idle had to do a -20 for it to take throttle w/o a bog. Real nice 2010 Rollerized w/tune in ECU for pipe
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I charge 3-4hrs, any more is gouging.
Road Mike's old Stelvio today after dialing it all in, turned out nice, fueling on idle had to do a -20 for it to take throttle w/o a bog. Real nice 2010 Rollerized w/tune in ECU for pipe
Mine is next!
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Yes, however, --- Caveat Emptor
Better understand the problem and figure the cost of rollerization into the purchase price !
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So , this (2V(4V) motor , only imported to Pennsylvania ? :huh:
Dusty
In Pennsylvania its commonly referred to as the "6V".
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So , this (2V(4V) motor , only imported to Pennsylvania ? :huh:
Dusty
I just hate the inconsistency that most people call the 2 valve per cylinder motor 2V and the 4 valve per cylinder motor 8V. It should be 2V and 4V or 4V and 8V.
Yes, sometimes I do have CDO (that's OCD, but, with the letters in alphabetical order as they should be).
:grin:
Quite honestly I wouldn't buy ANY 4 valve per cylinder Guzzi.
That is a lot more clear! Or, just call it a 6V :wink:
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In Pennsylvania its commonly referred to as the "6V".
I just hate the inconsistency that most people call the 2 valve per cylinder motor 2V and the 4 valve per cylinder motor 8V. It should be 2V and 4V or 4V and 8V.
Yes, sometimes I do have CDO (that's OCD, but, with the letters in alphabetical order as they should be).
:grin:
That is a lot more clear! Or, just call it a 6V :wink:
I figured one 2 valve head and one 4 valve head :huh:
Dusty
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Call it an 'in head cam' if you can't understand the name. :rolleyes:
There are some 8V flat tappet bikes I like better than the later roller models.
A Griso SE for instance.
But I'm reluctant to purchase a flat tappet bike for obvious reasons.
Just gathering some thoughts on rather to purchase and what the cost would be to convert.
If you are interested, Beetle covered it.
By all means, consider it. As he mentioned, if it has been grinding away a lot of metal, run away.
If it is fairly clean, then factor in a recall kit.
The amount of labor varies. If it is an A or B kit, probably close to 3 hours, maybe 4. If it is a C kit (don't think it is), it is a LOT more time. Maybe 8 to 10 hours.
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Come to think of it, there is no ambiguity if 2V and 8V are used as terms. 4V is the ambiguous term. I say to heck with consistency and scrap the ambiguous term. I also don't think the earlier generation 8V engines should be lumped into the mess. They didn't have fatal flaws as far as I know.
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Come to think of it, there is no ambiguity if 2V and 8V are used as terms. 4V is the ambiguous term. I say to heck with consistency and scrap the ambiguous term. I also don't think the earlier generation 8V engines should be lumped into the mess. They didn't have fatal flaws as far as I know.
Long ago, 2 valve vs. 8 valve was my suggestion for unambiguous terminology. I took some flack for it, notably from Down Under.
You're all welcome.
Moto
P.S. I would be hesitant to buy any of the current generation of 8v engines, unless I knew the one I was interested in was fitted with rollers at the factory. Some compromised flat tappet engines have probably been rollerized by now, with lingering problems in the bottom end. At least that's how I interpret what more knowledgeable people than I have posted.
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I charge 3-4hrs, any more is gouging.
If a "C" kit is required, the heads need to come off to install the valve shims. This complicates matters some.
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There are some 8V flat tappet bikes I like better than the later roller models.
A Griso SE for instance.
But I'm reluctant to purchase a flat tappet bike for obvious reasons.
Just gathering some thoughts on rather to purchase and what the cost would be to convert.
Mike
When I was looking for a replacement bike last year (Breva or Norge being the options) I decided to definitely NOT go for an 8V flat tappet bike following some discussion on this forum
The risk was too high for me to accept
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A new addition to the line of tin foil hats I sell.
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02996/potd-foil-house_2996642k.jpg)
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I would. Two caveats however:
Pre purchase inspection required by a dealer of your choice. If the tappets look like this:
(http://i84.servimg.com/u/f84/18/91/78/64/image11.jpg)
Plus there is a service history? Say yes with the cost of the kit and labour factored in.
If they look like this:
(http://i84.servimg.com/u/f84/18/91/78/64/image12.jpg)
Run away.
THAT IS UGLY!
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Has anyone actually found bearing damage as a result of failure?
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but who's really to blame. a 2v is plenty fine. and will work for the next 50 years... but we need more power. more. the guzzi is weak. a bwm spits in its face. so lets add valves squeeze out a few more hp.
And that is why I'm keep hold of my 2004 EV with hydraulic lifters. No issues there.
Oh, wait!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :coffee:
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The flat tappet 8V bikes are projects. If you like projects, then maybe its something for you.
The efforts and costs to convert them vary as depending on the damage, more than just fitting the proper kit could be involved. All that info can be found on WG.
Getting the costs paid for vary according to the route you take. If the word "can't" is a favorite, then ante up and get the best deal you can.
So far, there are no similar issues with the roller 8V bikes.
When it comes to the extra power that the 8V bikes have, has anyone read any posts where owners where trying to lower the power output because the engines made too much? :rolleyes:
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Has anyone actually found bearing damage as a result of failure?
Maybe. Maybe not.
Seriously, it gets complicated.
Looking at the photos that Beetle showed. That second photo shows a LOT of HARD metal missing. Some of that would have bypassed the filter on cold start. I would not buy that used unless it was the deal of the century and I fully expected to replace a lot of the bottom end, or even the entire block. See the edit below....
Mine looked worse then the first photo that Beetle showed. I pulled the rod bearings to inspect them, and basically I replaced them while I was there. The bearings measured fine using plastigage, and did not show damage due to contamination. But they didn't look new either. The crankshaft was pretty clean.
EDIT: I take back what I said a bit. The first photo below is my tappet. It had a bit more metal missing then I had remember from many beers/bourbons/merlots ago. The second photo is my rod bearing. The photo isn't all that great, but there is no obvious 'damage'. I suspect I replaced them because I had on the tin foil hat and was paranoid. And since I was touching them to inspect them, I replaced them.
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee208/worwig/publicshare/20150901_134813.jpg)
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee208/worwig/publicshare/20151231_140441.jpg)
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It is nice to see a bit of honesty and realism appearing on this subject, all we need now the same from the dealers.
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Just to confuse things a bit more, the 1200 Sport that had these:
(http://i84.servimg.com/u/f84/18/91/78/64/image12.jpg)
Was found to have a pristine bottom end. That being said, I would still run away.
Pete's bottom end failed shortly after getting rollerized, but he's convinced it was from doing too many wheelies and starving the bottom end.
Now, what really concerns me is what some dealers consider a failure? If the tappets looked like the ones in Jdcooper's pic, a less experienced or somewhat ignorant dealer might think they're OK. That's a bit scary.
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Just to confuse things a bit more, the 1200 Sport that had these:
(http://i84.servimg.com/u/f84/18/91/78/64/image12.jpg)
Was found to have a pristine bottom end. That being said, I would still run away.
Pete's bottom end failed shortly after getting rollerized, but he's convinced it was from doing too many wheelies and starving the bottom end.
Now, what really concerns me is what some dealers consider a failure? If the tappets looked like the ones in Jdcooper's pic, a less experienced or somewhat ignorant dealer might think they're OK. That's a bit scary.
This bike the sump was pristine but I didn't drop the rod caps. The crazy thing is it was the worst I've seen and I heard it coming from the end of King St! Sump was fine, and I've bunged the roller top end off Ralf's bike in as a stopgap and it's as quiet as a mouse!!! Go figure!
Pete
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Welcome back, Pete. :smiley: :thumb:
Oil filters are wonderful things..
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+1 on welcome back Pete!!!
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I have one of the infamous early 12' Stelvios and rollered it myself. I will just keep it and ride the crap out of it until it fails or I do. Its just a motorcycle, there are plenty more where it came from and they are making new ones every day. As far as buying a older flatty, at the right price I would buy anything. If you want one get it, fix it and ride it. If you are totally adverse to doing any mechanical work or anything other than routine stuff get a new bike of your choice from a good dealer near home. Buying used is always a risk, life is a risk, take it from an old guy one phone call from your doctor can make your bike issues the least of your problems.
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take it from an old guy one phone call from your doctor can make your bike issues the least of your problems.
:smiley: :smiley: Absolutely. Life is short, don't sweat the small stuff.
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If you want one get it, fix it and ride it
Yes indeed. :1:
This topic seems like a modern day version of the chrome bore problem on the V700,750,850 Loops and early Tonti bikes. Enthusiasts have been buying and rebuilding those old bikes for years. I hope the flat tappet bikes get fixed instead of being scrapped, they deserve a better fate. Current owners that want to sell must adjust their asking price downward to make it worthwhile. Recent eBay and CL prices don't seem to reflect that yet.
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Great thread,now I can buy a flat tappet Stelvio time bomb for under 2K.
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I posted this over in adventure rider in the stelvio thread.Really didn't get any feed back,hoping for more in WG
"I want to move up from my Quota to a Stelvio.I've read all kinds of posts about flat tappets.After looking closely at the design I question it.The load of two valve springs on one tappet transferred down the rocker shaft.I don't believe the flat tappets ever had a chance to survive.I also think it was a cost consideration.The roller conversion came to be fairly quickly.Almost like the design was there and already produced.So lets say I buy and convert a flat tappet or buy a roller Stelvio,the extreme load of two valves on one tappet is still there.Will the failure now be in rocker box bearings(if it has bearings).Now talk me off the ledge and tell me how the earlier 4V mid cam motors do not seem to have this issue."
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...the extreme load of two valves on one tappet is still there...
Is it an extreme load? I'll assume, then, that you've calculated (or measured) what the load is. If so, what would you consider a moderate and therefore acceptable tappet design load?
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I posted this over in adventure rider in the stelvio thread.Really didn't get any feed back,hoping for more in WG
"I want to move up from my Quota to a Stelvio.I've read all kinds of posts about flat tappets.After looking closely at the design I question it.The load of two valve springs on one tappet transferred down the rocker shaft.I don't believe the flat tappets ever had a chance to survive.I also think it was a cost consideration.The roller conversion came to be fairly quickly.Almost like the design was there and already produced.So lets say I buy and convert a flat tappet or buy a roller Stelvio,the extreme load of two valves on one tappet is still there.Will the failure now be in rocker box bearings(if it has bearings).Now talk me off the ledge and tell me how the earlier 4V mid cam motors do not seem to have this issue."
Yup, you're absolutely right, the whole design is terrible. Everything about it is beyond awful. If you were to buy one it would not only destroy itself but would climb in through your bedroom window at night and murder you in your bed!
Far better stick with the Quota.
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Yup, you're absolutely right, the whole design is terrible. Everything about it is beyond awful. If you were to buy one it would not only destroy itself but would climb in through your bedroom window at night and murder you in your bed!
Far better stick with the Quota.
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAA HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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Here be trolls.
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Thread, I spit at thee. From hells heart I stab at thee.
Die thread, die.
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Forget I asked
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I am sorry to say, I will not be buying another Moto Guzzi.
Current owner of the ill-fated Griso 8V, getting ready to rollerize. Approx total cost P&L: $1700
Previous Guzzi: 2003 California Aluminum. Oh yeah, the 'Hydro Valvole' How many recalls? 5?
Then Piaggio lowered the MSRP, thus destroying my resale. Took a bath.
Sorry, Done for now. If I can get this Griso right, I'll be happy. But not going there again. Too many Ultra-reliable bikes out there.
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To the OP, NO, not at this point, MAYBE 5 years ago, but not at the 10+ year mark. Plenty of roller 8V motored bikes out there.
I will never understand the issues over 4V/8V identification.
It is simple 4V motor means 2V head, 8V motor means 4V head. As some as someone identifies head or motor, it is easy.
I have had two 'go's' at Guzzi 8V motors, a 1200 Norge and 1400 MGX, I didn't like either, and far prefer the older 4V motors. YMMV
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Not only would I, but I did. Wanted a Tenni Green Griso so found a low milage one and did the roller swap myself. The flat tappets had very minimal wear at 4000 miles. Bike runs like a champ all these years later. Like anything in life, you place your bets and takes your chances.
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Another zombie thread arises!
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Inconsistencies.... like tappets vs lifters.
If your lifters are tapping anything you have a problem.
The tapping is done at the rocker arm/valve stem interface. :boxing:
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Realistically do you think any Griso owner is going to let his bike be torn apart so you can look at the tappets? They might let you take the cover off if you were lucky.
I would buy a nice looking example knowing it needed rollers but only after I had determined that the appropriate kit was available and factoring in the cost.
I don't see how the metal can end up in the bearings, its scrubbed off the tappets, ends up in the sump, one trip through the pump and it should be safely locked in the filter.
It does have the possibility of destroying the pump however.
You can say on a cold start it might bypass the filter but wouldn't it have been trapped last time the bike was running hot?
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Has anyone actually found bearing damage as a result of failure?
Peerhaps some persons who have ridden the bike 50,000 miles after a bad flat tapppet failure was rollerized can a
nswer from experience?
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I wouldn't. I took a bath on a 2011 Stelvio over this. Tried to order the parts and gave up after 3 months. Like one of the earlier posts said, if you did this 3-4 years after the bike came out it may have been a good idea, but these are all ~10 years now and a good number have already been rollerized.
-Steve
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I have an '03 hydro with 90k on it and a '11 Tenni SE with 25k so I do feel your pain. But I bought both knowing fully what I was getting in to and what needed to be done. The hydro was extra difficult because in 2005 the kits were not yet available. I had to wait almost a year until the recall was performed (first kits went to unsold bikes).
I do believe the reward is worth the aggravation though. The EV has been rock solid for 15 years save for when the tranny bearings went out at about 80k. Even then I made it home 350 miles (but doubt I had much more left). My Griso, after rollers, plug wires and Mark's map, is the best running and most reliable bike I've ever owned to date.
Speaking to a dealer one time who sold both Triumph and Guzzi, he said that the his Triumph customers become regulars. The Guzzi customers, on the other hand, he sees for the first 5km while he's fixing all of the stuff that the factory should have done right, but after that they sort of disappear. My experience too.
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Roy: It is very easy to tell simply by removing a valve cover and looking. With a little homework, pics are easy to find to compare old and new. You don't need to look further. As for the Griso SE, aka Tenni Griso, I believe all of them needed rollerization. So if that specific model is what someone seeks they need to verify one way or the other before they lay down the cash.
John Henry
JH, a Tenni, that would be tempting.
Peeking under a cover is a long way from this, just saying. the tread was asking if you would buy a bike knowing that it had flat tappets.
So we already know it needs a kit, you are factoring the kit into the price by knocking 2K off the asking price.
If knew for sure I could buy the right kit, I wouldn't need to look first because replacing parts is a given, with Petes excellent tutorials it would be a great winter project.
To open it up and find this wouldn't be too scary.
(http://i84.servimg.com/u/f84/18/91/78/64/image11.jpg)
The chances of seeing this would be very remote, that bike must be knocking on 100K miles surely, I wouldn't look at one more than 20K
That would give you a sinking feeling but surely its rattling like a couple of skeletons in a tin bath at that stage.
Reminds me of a Vincent I had once, there was about 1/4" missing from the tops of the cam.
(http://i84.servimg.com/u/f84/18/91/78/64/image12.jpg)
Cheers
Roy
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Q: Would you buy an 8 valve with flat tappets?
I did buy a 2009 8V Griso in 2013.
At the time I knew there was a risk, but it was not yet established that all flat tappets would fail, so I felt lucky and bought it :grin:
Had it rollerized later @ 14,000 km, Piaggio supplied parts and I paid a mechanic for the work.
I just love the 8V motor.
Would I buy an 8V with flat tappets again?
Definitely, if the price and mileage were right.
Small chance about the mileage by now - - - - -
Eyes wide open so to speak.
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In a word: NO.
If I were to buy a Griso, it would be an 1100 (2V(4V) motor), or 8V that came from the factory with rollers.
Same goes for a Norge, 2V(4V) or 8V roller.
Did the Breva 1200 Sport (2008) Have the same issuue of the flat tappet? Or was it only Norge, Stelvio and Griso?
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An '08 Breva would be a 2valve per cylinder engine, so no, it wouldn't be affected by the 8 valve flat tappet issue.
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I wouldn’t but an 8V if it had spherical tappets..
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Do I recall the 1200 Sport was available as an 8 valve in other countries? Only 2 valve models in the US.
John Henry
Yeah, Lovey has one.