Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Delta425 on February 28, 2016, 09:54:56 AM
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Just got the Norge out after parking it in November and I have a "clacking" sound in the final drive (CARC). Friend of mine says it will go away after a few miles - it's just from not having oil moving around in it for a while. I ran it for 3 or 4 minutes on the center stand in 2nd gear at about 20 MPH, but the noise is still there. Opinions? Any reason to be concerned?
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How many times per revoltio of the rear wheel do you hear the clack. Is it rhytmic when turning the wherl at constant RPM ?
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Yes, it is dependent on wheel speed. It seems like once per revolution.
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IF.... that's true, then it has to be the crown wheel or something attached, my thought is that it's the only internal part of the final drive that turns at wheel RPM. I'd try taking off the rear wheel, caliper and abs sensor, turn the hub by hand and see if the clack persists, thinking that your noise may not be internal. If the trouble was forward of the pinion, the clack would occur multiple times per wheel revolution.
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I so this is occurring on the centrestand with no load on the drive other than the mass of the wheel, yes?
If that is the case of course it's going to make a hideous noise, the uneven firing intervals will cause the entire driveline to load and unload in a manner it was never designed to.
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Oh man , I took a thrashing on WG for running my Jackal in gear on the centerstand for 15 seconds . Some of the comments were , " Dude , just how stupid are you" or " I'm coming to take that thing away from you before it gets destroyed , you are not deserving of a Guzzi " :grin: Seems like Chuckie may have threatened actual physical harm :shocked:
Dusty
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The possibility that Pete Roper points out can be investigated, start your bike on the centrestand run the bike up in 2 nd gear, and lightly apply the rear brake, this will give the engine some resistance to pull against, but not too hard on the brake or you'll introduce other noises from the rear suspension
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What did they think was going to happen Oldie ?
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Please don't do that.
Just get on it and ride it a few metres. Does it make a noise under load or on the over-run? If so you have a problem. If it's simply doing it on the stand it's just the result of the mass of the driveline trying to hammer it to pieces as its being asked to do something it isn't supposed to.
Pete
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What did they think was going to happen Oldie ?
Please don't do that.
Just get on it and ride it a few metres. Does it make a noise under load or on the over-run? If so you have a problem. If it's simply doing it on the stand it's just the result of the mass of the driveline trying to hammer it to pieces as its being asked to do something it isn't supposed to.
Pete
Something like this Huzo . I always take heed when Pete , Chuck , Guzzistsve , etc bother to help us amateurs .
Dusty
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Please don't get me wrong on this one oldie, collectively they would have forgotten more than I'm ever likely to learn, period. But don't you think you've retained the right to ask why ? It doesn't mean you question their word, 'cos neither of us would
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Not related to a shaftie but chain driven bikes will do the same thing, make noises when run on the center stand, you can see the chain snatching because of not load.
There are all kinds of reasons not to run the bike, trans engaged and spinning the rear wheel while on the center stand, the least of which is not that you have a huge amounts nt of mass turning that if someone or something gets caught up in it, disaster is sure to follow.
It could be a pant leg, shirt tail, hand foot who knows? Safe rather than sorry.
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Please don't get me wrong on this one oldie, collectively they would have forgotten more than I'm ever likely to learn, period. But don't you think you've retained the right to ask why ? It doesn't mean you question their word, 'cos neither of us would
Well of course we have the right , and maybe even the obligation to ask why . This is how we learn . One of the greatest qualities on display here on WG is the willingness of our pros and amateurs to share knowledge . Heck , Pete has on a couple of occasions stated that an idea put forth by me regarding a mechanical issue was on the mark , and at best I am a semi-talented amateur :grin:
Dusty
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Well there you have it, you can't be wrong all the time. But seriously, what was the issue according to your accuser, I bet there was a goodly amount of common sense involved.
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Well there you have it, you can't be wrong all the time. But seriously, what was the issue according to your accuser, I bet there was a goodly amount of common sense involved.
In America we say "even a blind hog finds an acorn every now and then" :rolleyes:
To answer your question , running the bike in gear with the rear wheel elevated creates an unfavorable angle on the U joint . AND , no one actually threatened violence or loss of the Jackal , although I am sure that a few had those thoughts :laugh: Just part of the dynamic here .
Dusty
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Now that does make sense, 'never thought of that one. It may be a cultural difference on display here oldie, but I always sense that there's a simmering resentment to a questioning view of established sources of wisdom from down here in Australia, but I'm keen to learn.
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Well there you have it, you can't be wrong all the time. But seriously, what was the issue according to your accuser, I bet there was a goodly amount of common sense involved.
Get your head in the game, son.. :smiley: Pete wrote in his first post:
If that is the case of course it's going to make a hideous noise, the uneven firing intervals will cause the entire driveline to load and unload in a manner it was never designed to.
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Now that does make sense, 'never thought of that one. It may be a cultural difference on display here oldie, but I always sense that there's a simmering resentment to a questioning view of established sources of wisdom from down here in Australia, but I'm keen to learn.
No doubt there are some cultural differences , although maybe not as great as you may think . I have met lots of Ozzies , Pete included . Living along RT 66 allows me to meet folks from all over who are doing the tourist thing from Chicago to Los Angeles , usually at a motorcycle museum located on the old highway . It is always interesting to discover how folks are just folks .
Dusty
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Well, the noise was there when I rode the bike around the house, but it was a bit muddy and was doing the flat track routine. So, maybe I was hearing this noise with no weight on the suspension (feet down pushing the bike). Anyways, I will get a chance later and just ride it and see what happens. I will post how it goes..... if I remember (CRAFT disease, you know).
Anyways, THANKS for all the replies! Great forum here, with a great bunch of guys!
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Sounds reasonable OB, thanks for the chat
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This has been covered many times before lets cover it again.
The 90 degree V twin with a shared crankpin has very uneven firing intervals of 270 and 450 degrees. Every time a cylinder fires the crank accelerates. Every time a piston comes up against compression it slows down. Couple this with the uneven firing intervals and lack of flywheel mass, (The flywheel is essentially a 'Battery' for kinetic energy.) and when a cylinder fires the crank and driveline accelerate but as the other piston comes up against compression the crank, and input shaft, slow down so the free movement in the drive train, (Engagement dog backlash, spline clearance etc.) is taken up and the driveline *Knocks*.
If the firing intervals were even this would be less problematic but with the large discrepancies at idle and just above you end up with uneven power pulses setting up irregular surges in the driveline and hence the horrible clattering.
As I said, please don't do it.
Pete
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Pete sez
drink train
Where do I buy a ticket? :smiley:
He also sez
please don't do it.
Pretty polite for Pete. :smiley: Maybe I should go on a rant for him? :thewife: Naa, only to Dusty.
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Well, the noise was there when I rode the bike around the house, but it was a bit muddy and was doing the flat track routine. So, maybe I was hearing this noise with no weight on the suspension (feet down pushing the bike). Anyways, I will get a chance later and just ride it and see what happens. I will post how it goes..... if I remember (CRAFT disease, you know).
Anyways, THANKS for all the replies! Great forum here, with a great bunch of guys!
Was it causing any problems before you laid the bike up for winter? If not why would it suddenly develop a mechanical problem through sitting idle?
Pete
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"bit muddy and was doing the flat track routine"
If you have any pictures please post them, I'd love to see someone flat tracking a Norge!
Your left leg must be made of steel.
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Pete sezWhere do I buy a ticket? :smiley:
He also sezPretty polite for Pete. :smiley: Maybe I should go on a rant for him? :thewife: Naa, only to Dusty.
Wait , what did I do ? :shocked: :rolleyes:
Dusty
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Wait , what did I do ? :shocked: :rolleyes:
Dusty
Dusty, taking the heat is your job. That's why we give you the big bucks.. :evil: :boozing:
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Dusty, taking the heat is your job. That's why we give you the big bucks.. :evil: :boozing:
Luap , Rocker , and I would settle for an occasional comped meal :laugh:
Dusty
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Luap , Rocker , and I would settle for an occasional comped meal :laugh:
Dusty
Either of you guys are always welcome to the 36-18 B&B, and I'll fix you a special breakfast.
Oh, wait.. Rocker has already been here.. :smiley:
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Oh. To the OP. CARC means Clanks and Rattles Continuously. Didn't you know that? :smiley: :boozing:
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Was it causing any problems before you laid the bike up for winter? If not why would it suddenly develop a mechanical problem through sitting idle?
Pete
No, it was not noisy when I put t up in the fall. Anyways, I should have a chance to ride it tomorrow (Monday)and will try to report back after I do. Again, thanks, everyone.
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Either of you guys are always welcome to the 36-18 B&B, and I'll fix you a special breakfast.
Oh, wait.. Rocker has already been here.. :smiley:
Careful about making those kind of offers , we might all three show up , and maybe bring Chet Rugg along also . Not sure anyone wants that :laugh:
Dusty
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OK, FINALLY got a ride in yesterday, and all is fine. Damn work and travel got in the way of things. Anyways, thanks to everyone for your replies.
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So what do you think it was ?
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Two things you learn never to do after the first time you do them:
- running the bike on the center stand
- locking up the rear wheel
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Ok fair enough, I can understand it's politically correct to join the chorus and howl down anyone who runs their bike in gear on the centre stand, at least you know you won't be disagreed with and Pete made a very good point on that topic. Can someone please tell me though about the second of the two things you learn never to do again once you've done it once, that being locking the rear wheel, where is the lesson to be learned there ?
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It's not 'Politically Correct' anything. It's an easily recognisable result of doing something fundamentally pretty dim that the machine was never designed to do. Loud knocking and rattling noises are usually a pretty damn good indicator that you're doing something wrong. Once it is explained why in a situation like this the horrible noise occurs it should be blindingly obvious that it's not a good idea.
To many people, myself included, it is virtually incomprehensible that one would run a large capacity twin cylinder engine with a lightish flywheel, considerable backlash in the driveline and very uneven firing intervals and then be astonished that the driveline protests by making a noise like a cement mixer full of bricks! This isn't because I'm particularly smart. Neither is it because I have some sort of 'Secret Knowledge' handed down to me through the aerial on my tinfoil hat! It's just simple common sense. It's not something I had to *Learn*. To me it was bleeding obvious the moment I saw that the Guzzi engine had a shared crankpin when I bought my first one in 1978 that the firing intervals would be uneven and therefore running the driveline unloaded would be a bad idea.
I know that some people don't have this sort of 'Mechanical train of thought' which is why when explaining the issue I was very polite and used expressions like 'Please don't do that'. I didn't notice anybody 'Howling anyone down', only people trying, with a degree of urgency, trying to dissuade someone else from damaging their motorcycle's driveline.
YOMV.
Pete
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that being locking the rear wheel, where is the lesson to be learned there ?
You'll learn the term, "I had to lay her down?" :smiley:
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Can someone please tell me though about the second of the two things you learn never to do again once you've done it once, that being locking the rear wheel, where is the lesson to be learned there ?
As Chuck mentioned, you'll learn the phrase 'I had to lay it down to "avoid" and accident'. The problem is, laying it down IS and accident.
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Two of the best teachers are called "experience" and "consequences" for first usually leading to the second.
So long as personal injury isn't involved, its just something material which can usually be replaced or otherwise fixed.
Each of us probably has a gift that others do not and could easily tell others things they do not know. It doesn't make anyone better than another, just different and if we can somehow help someone else, the gift was worthwhile, otherwise, it was a waste.
The thing is, very often the results of helping someone isn't realized until long afterwards. In the meantime, judgement comes along.
The person who is told something but doesn't get it right away but does later still learned, just not as fast as others demand. If in the meantime, some material thing got turned into scrap, so what? None of us are made by Intel.
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Good judgment comes from Experience
Experience can sometimes (not always) come from Bad Judgment.
:thumb: :thumb: Just have to enjoy the circle!
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Good judgment comes from Experience
Experience can sometimes (not always) come from Bad Judgment.
:thumb: :thumb: Just have to enjoy the circle!
Value your mistakes , for they are the only thing truly yours .
Dusty
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But, to be clear, I first heard the noise while RIDING the bike around the house. It actually seemed louder while riding than on the center stand. And, on the center stand, while applying the rear brake lightly, the noise was the same as no brake pressure.
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Two of the best teachers are called "experience" and "consequences" for first usually leading to the second.
So long as personal injury isn't involved, its just something material which can usually be replaced or otherwise fixed.
Each of us probably has a gift that others do not and could easily tell others things they do not know. It doesn't make anyone better than another, just different and if we can somehow help someone else, the gift was worthwhile, otherwise, it was a waste.
The thing is, very often the results of helping someone isn't realized until long afterwards. In the meantime, judgement comes along.
The person who is told something but doesn't get it right away but does later still learned, just not as fast as others demand. If in the meantime, some material thing got turned into scrap, so what? None of us are made by Intel.
Damn good post. I, too, get very sick of the KIA club.
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But, to be clear, I first heard the noise while RIDING the bike around the house. It actually seemed louder while riding than on the center stand. And, on the center stand, while applying the rear brake lightly, the noise was the same as no brake pressure.
Is it possible that you were riding w/o a helmet at the time and the noise "seemed" louder, and now when riding again with a helmet, it's no longer there?
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My side stand was recently replaced. Afterwards I noticed a slight tick tick on startup coming from the right side. It went away immediately. Prior that that, I rarely used the side stand because it leaned over so far. Checking, the few ticks aren't heard when using the center stand.
Point: sometimes we change things or after some spell of not riding we might hear noises that were always there but we got used to them
Once, I heard a ticking type of noise from the rear end, nothing more than a small rock stuck in the tread of the rear tire. I must have looked numerous time but the stuck rock must have been where I couldn't see it. Finally, I spun the wheel and there was the little bugger.
You never know. It could be a nail too, worn down and barely visable. That would do it. Not deep enough to cause a flat. Worth a check.
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Is it possible that you were riding w/o a helmet at the time and the noise "seemed" louder, and now when riding again with a helmet, it's no longer there?
Good thought, but, no the original noise was very noticeable. Also, when I rode on Sunday, the first 200 yards I rode without a helmet for that very reason. Is as quiet now as it was last fall before I put her up. No idea what it was really, but am glad it's gone.
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Good for you. :thumb:
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So not wanting to ruffle any feathers but, all I said was... Apply the rear brake LIGHTLY, my query is, how the hell does the engine know if the resistance is coming from the brake application or like it would if it was pulling you along the road for instance ? Now please don't take offence that I asked . THIS time there's none intended.
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So not wanting to ruffle any feathers but, all I said was... Apply the rear brake LIGHTLY, my query is, how the hell does the engine know if the resistance is coming from the brake application or like it would if it was pulling you along the road for instance ? Now please don't take offence that I asked . THIS time there's none intended.
If I understand what you are saying, the engine wouldn't know the difference. If you are talking about running it on the centerstand, and applying brake to load the engine, that is a completely different scenario.
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Chuck, would you ,or someone else please tell me why it's a different scenario ? I'm not disputing anyone here at all, if I asked the question in person it would sound different than in text but a LIGHT application of the rear brake would I thought, (and still do), take up the driveline lash and allow you to get near the rear drive while in operation, after all, when your bike is on a dyno, your are being provided with a resistance and my contention was that you are simulating this to a lesser extent. That's all I was suggesting, honestly...
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It's a question of mass.
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Ok fair enough, I can understand it's politically correct to join the chorus and howl down anyone who runs their bike in gear on the centre stand, at least you know you won't be disagreed with and Pete made a very good point on that topic. Can someone please tell me though about the second of the two things you learn never to do again once you've done it once, that being locking the rear wheel, where is the lesson to be learned there ?
The noise the bike makes when you lock up the rear is about the same sound it makes running on the center stand, only worse. Fortunately the B11 has the best rear brake I've ever encountered on the bike so it's hard to do
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The noise the bike makes when you lock up the rear is about the same sound it makes running on the center stand, only worse. Fortunately the B11 has the best rear brake I've ever encountered on the bike so it's hard to do
OFF TOPIC
That's interesting since I think mine is pants - I think a coat of looking at is called for !!
ON TOPIC
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Chuck, would you ,or someone else please tell me why it's a different scenario ? I'm not disputing anyone here at all, if I asked the question in person it would sound different than in text but a LIGHT application of the rear brake would I thought, (and still do), take up the driveline lash and allow you to get near the rear drive while in operation, after all, when your bike is on a dyno, your are being provided with a resistance and my contention was that you are simulating this to a lesser extent. That's all I was suggesting, honestly...
When you run the bike on a dyno, the rear suspension is loaded, and the u joint is in a normal alignment. On the centerstand, not so much.
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Ok then that'll do me, I'm bound to admit that the Uni is transferring drive through a greater angle , if that means you're mistreating the bike then fair enough, it's a point that obviously carries some merit so I'll think about that before doing anything similar to mine.
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Bad news to all Stelvio owners who ride off road and get air. Their U Joints are unloaded as are their suspensions, or are they all closing the throttles to avoid damage?
Same for any other bike that goes off road. Someone needs to tell all the GS owners too along with anyone riding a shaftie off road for any reason. :evil:
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^ I agree, and it sounds like bad news for all of us who get a little air or unload our suspensions over bumps. We had all better slow down and avoid doing that! :wink:
For some reason, I am not satisfied with the explanations given so far. I do not doubt the advice given ("Don't do that!"), but that advice does not explain mechanically what is going on. Perhaps I am just a bit slow on the uptake...
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^ I agree, and it sounds like bad news for all of us who get a little air or unload our suspensions over bumps. We had all better slow down and avoid doing that! :wink:
For some reason, I am not satisfied with the explanations given so far. I do not doubt the advice given ("Don't do that!"), but that advice does not explain mechanically what is going on. Perhaps I am just a bit slow on the uptake...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=um7T3pGP0fA
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If you will notice , the rear tire on the Stelvio really never leaves the ground , trolling the posts suggesting running the bike in gear with the rear wheel suspended is a bad idea is just that , a bad idea. You may think you know more than Pete , or Chuck , but you don't .
Dusty
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Wait a minute - I think I see what the problem may be here:
" Well, the noise was there when I rode the bike around the house, but it was a bit muddy and was doing the flat track routine."
There's a couple of things going on. One is all the mud inside your house. The other is that you have a big enough place that you can flat track in it.
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Over extension of the suspensions is less of an issue with the newer bikes as the wider separation of the two Hookes couplings reduces the torsional forces on them relative to the angle at which they work.
This has little to do with the clatter created by running the bike on its stand though. I've explained that. I'm sorry if the explanation isn't good enough but I think the problem in that case is more one of comprehension rather than the explanation itself.
Bottom line. Don't run your bike at idle on the centrestand. It's not meant to be used that way and doing so can cause damage. If that isn't clear enough there is no helping you.
Pete
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If you will notice , the rear tire on the Stelvio really never leaves the ground , trolling the posts suggesting running the bike in gear with the rear wheel suspended is a bad idea is just that , a bad idea. You may think you know more than Pete , or Chuck , but you don't .
Dusty
Who suggested that running the engine with the rear tire suspended was a good idea?
Really, you ought to read the thread before running off with pure nonsense like that.
This isn't about chuck, Pete, jimbob or bubba so don't make it into that.
Now, if you bothered to read, this was reply #11 on this very thread:
"There are all kinds of reasons not to run the bike, trans engaged and spinning the rear wheel while on the center stand, the least of which is not that you have a huge amounts nt of mass turning that if someone or something gets caught up in it, disaster is sure to follow."
Where is the suggestion to run the bike on the center stand?
I thought so. No one is questioning what Pete said so stand on your own, don't put others out front to make hay.
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First off I have been reading the thread , secondly , oh never mind ...
Dusty
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There isn't one word of disagreement in anything I've posted on this topic, there is no challenge to anyones status, all I asked for from the start was some justification as to why my suggestion sounded ill advised and I'm bound to take some of the info on board. I just didn't expect so many people to draw their swords in Pete's defence, no one's attacking him so why close the thread, I thought it was a good robust conversation.
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So I'm presuming then that riding a wheelie on the back wheel is OK, or perhaps doing a front stoppie on the front wheel is OK as well, as long as one doesn't come down too hard and crack the CARC!!
:thumb: :thumb: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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PM'd
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Sorry thebaileylee, but you didn't do your homework, post # 183 from huzo asked politey (as always) in response to some goose who said "there are two things you learn never to do again". The second of the two was, "don't lock your rear wheel", to which I aked, "where's the lesson to be learned there". Now was that polite enough ?
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Just did a bit of homework myself. The goose in question was doppelgaenger reply # 34
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I made a commitment to some of the powers that be that I would not reply to your posts. Therefore, I am unable to provide the explanation you asked for, in public view.
Since it appears to be a legitimate question, the answer is as follows:
The pebble or nail are as likely to be the cause of noise that syncs with wheel rotation as some of the calls for near disaster requiring the dismantling of the rear drive unit and doom predictions (not though, the calls not to run the bike on the center stand as that is right to dissuade anyone from doing).
As we can see, the noise no longer exists, the comments that one should NOT run the bike on the center stand well meaning and accurate, the guesses at the major problems making the noise - pure guesses without much basis and no more likely than a pebble or nail in the tread.
Everything else, including locking of rear brakes, completely irrelevant but no one dares question that, why, remains a mystery.
I could answer via post to the forum, I promised not to. Just the way it goes.
You posted my PM to you in open forum? How dare you? Have you no decency? On any other forum you'd be banned instantly, here obviously, it's condoned.
I'd never post the contents of a private message from anyone in open forum without permission. Just what do you think a Private Message is supposed to be?
What a piece of work. :angry: