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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: dubtac on February 28, 2016, 11:10:54 PM
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Fellas
I have developed a strange issue at my starter relay on the old Breva. I attempted the startus interuptus fix on my bike with no beans to get the fully automatic function working again while I replaced the Engine Temperature sensor to get it all done. I pulled of the plastic shield from the bike checked the small gauge power wire to the solenoid even replaced it with a new wire directly to the starter relay for testing purposes.
After that failed me I pulled out the Fluke and tested the wires going into the relay the yellow wire had just over 12.5 volts with the key on, the yellow orange wire was the wire that went to the starter relay it had no voltage being that it was on the load side of the relay. The red black wire on the control side of the relay had 12.5 volts which seems switched by the ignition switch. The pink brown wire had 3.5 volts for some reason I can't explain.
So I pulled out the wiring diagram out and figured out the pink brown wire went directly to the ECU with no splices. I disconnected the wire harness at the ECU the voltage dropped to 0. I have a bad taste in my mouth thinking what on the bike makes 3.5 volts or close to that could be leaking to that pin on the ECU or if the ECU is leaking power internally.
Any thoughts?
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I'm clueless.. bump to the top.
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I'm clueless.. bump to the top.
Im with you on this one, I can't for the life of me figure out why there is 3.5 volts on the pink brown wire. Chuck what do you mean by bump to the top?
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Im with you on this one, I can't for the life of me figure out why there is 3.5 volts on the pink brown wire. Chuck what do you mean by bump to the top?
The post was at the bottom of the page, soon to go off. Many times the guy that knows hasn't seen it and won't if it goes past the first page. Bumping the thread gives another set of eyes to see the question, that's all.
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The post was at the bottom of the page, soon to go off. Many times the guy that knows hasn't seen it and won't if it goes past the first page. Bumping the thread gives another set of eyes to see the question, that's all.
Thanks for the info Chuck, I'm still green when it comes to posting to the forum. :smiley:
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Is the relay itself FUBAR
Sorry but that's the best guess I have
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Is the relay itself FUBAR
Sorry but that's the best guess I have
I did my best, eliminated the relay from the starting circuit all together. I took out the pink brown wire put a test wire in its place on the relay terminal. Took that added wire and sent it to chassis ground the starter kicked right over with out an issue. Thanks Tris
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ah, yes...making electricians out of bikers...
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ah, yes...making electricians out of bikers...
I'm afraid Guzzi is about to teach me a lesson in electronics engineering. :grin:
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I'd have to see a wiring diagram, but I will assume the ECM provides a ground on the pink/brown wire to "turn on" the relay. What you're seeing is ignition voltage, going through the coils of the relay, and probably some resistors and diodes, on it's way to the ECM, waiting to be provided a ground. Ignore that reading, disonnect the ECM and ground that wire to test the circuit. In my opinion, you're better off using a simple test light, not a meter. If the bulb glows bright, the circuit can carry some load.
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I'd have to see a wiring diagram, but I will assume the ECM provides a ground on the pink/brown wire to "turn on" the relay. What you're seeing is ignition voltage, going through the coils of the relay, and probably some resistors and diodes, on it's way to the ECM, waiting to be provided a ground. Ignore that reading, disonnect the ECM and ground that wire to test the circuit. In my opinion, you're better off using a simple test light, not a meter. If the bulb glows bright, the circuit can carry some load.
I can post a rough diagram of the circuit in question if your interested in taking a look to see what you think. I'm running out of ideas and components to blame for this starter circuit not functioning. Thanks Pat
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Is the starter relay clicking when you attempt the start?
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Is the starter relay clicking when you attempt the start?
The relay is closing for nano second then lets go in instantly. Its really puzzling.
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I guess I'm going to have to call this thread startus interruptus MK II
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Get a wire with an alligator clip on it and connect the alligator clip to the positive of the battery. Poise with the other end of the wire over the fusebox. As soon as the starter button is pressed, touch the end of the wire on to the back of Fuse B (where the metal bits lie).
If it still doesn't start, then you don't have startus interruptus. I'm gonna say your battery is toast.
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........... I'm gonna say your battery is toast.
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Dave
Am I understanding you correctly -
Because the battery is dead/dying, when the starter kicks in there's not enough juice left to hold the relay closed so it immediately lets go?
I ask as my bike is an 05 version and knowledge will always be useful
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Assuming your battery is OK, which is a big assumption, find where the ECM grounds, and clean/tighten those grounds.
Any electrical testing involving black boxes has to be done with a good, fully charged battery. Low operating voltage can make FRED do some weird things. ( FRED= Foocking Ridiculous Electronic Device).
Sounds like you did what I suggested before I was able to post it, provide the ground the ECM is unable to, on the pink/brown wire. And the circuit worked normally, right? Relay was in place?
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Get a wire with an alligator clip on it and connect the alligator clip to the positive of the battery. Poise with the other end of the wire over the fusebox. As soon as the starter button is pressed, touch the end of the wire on to the back of Fuse B (where the metal bits lie).
If it still doesn't start, then you don't have startus interruptus. I'm gonna say your battery is toast.
Thanks for the help Dave, I have done the startus interruptus fix 5 yrs ago and it works great. Now I have developed startus interruptus MK II. This problem seems to have developed on the control side of the relay.
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Sounds like you did what I suggested before I was able to post it, provide the ground the ECM is unable to, on the pink/brown wire. And the circuit worked normally, right? Relay was in place?
Lol F.R.E.D that accurately describes that really bad feeling I get in my wallet. Anyway chassis grounds are spotless been cleaning connectors and grounds since Valentine's day. Even removed the harness and manually inspected the harness for shorts.
Yes when I supply the ground to the terminal for the pink brown wire at the relay, the starter works perfectly. Thanks for the help Pat
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Something is goofy. For some reason the ECM is not doing it's job, either it's dead, or unhappy with other inputs. Sidestand switch, clutch switch, neutral switch? Where does the start button figure in this circuit? What's the whole story, was the bike running? If you turn the key on and manually engage the starter does it run?
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Something is goofy. For some reason the ECM is not doing it's job, either it's dead, or unhappy with other inputs. Sidestand switch, clutch switch, neutral switch? Where does the start button figure in this circuit? What's the whole story, was the bike running? If you turn the key on and manually engage the starter does it run?
I have tested all the safety switches everything checks out even the engine kill switch. The starter switch seems to play in at 2 pins connected to the ECU pins 17 and 27. Seems like pin 17 is battery voltage with key on engine off which feeds the oxygen sensor, control side of the main injection relay, load side of the auxiliary injection relay.
The start switch is normally open energized from pin 17 of the ECU, seems when the operator closes the starter switch this allows current through the switch into pin 27 of the ECU.
I would hypothesize when voltage is seen at pin 27 of the ECU and all safety devices are working properly and not locked out, pin 1 of the ECU grounds out for the control side of the starter relay allowing current to flow through the coil, which intern causes the load side gate of the relay to close then viola the starter engages.
As far as the engine goes when you bypass the starter relay system it runs but runs like crap. I have a ghost engine temperature sensor code. Also I can't pull any engine data when the engine is running bypassing the starter relay circuit but, I can get data when engine is not running it is really weird and starting to sound really expensive.
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Please do a RESET of information for us.
Does the bike not crank at all now, after you installed a 'stratus interruptus' fix?
Please tell us the steps that have been done, and in what sequence.
As for the 3.5 volts, you are likely using a nice digital voltmeter, with a fairly high ohms per volt. I recommend that you get a cheapo analog meter, or even a simple test lamp, for now. The fancy meter is no doubt just reading some leakage current and causing more confusion then reality.
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I'm still suggesting the battery.
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If the bike will run the ECM is probably ok. At the least it will power up and run it's outputs, it would be unusual for a FRED to fail on only one circuit. The ghost codes and rest of the running symptoms suggest to me bad/ corroded connections or a power/ ground problem to the ECM.
On the other hand, I could see how repeated jumping of the starter solenoid could induce a damaging voltage spike.
As OMG suggested above, the whole sad story, what, why ,when
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Please do a RESET of information for us.
Does the bike not crank at all now, after you installed a 'stratus interruptus' fix?
Please tell us the steps that have been done, and in what sequence.
I did the startus interruptus fix 5 yrs ago, everything worked excellent until valentine's day this year, no blown fuses or anything out of the ordinary except for a the typical click of a dead battery or corroded terminals after riding the bike the day before. Not a problem I changed the battery with a fresh Napa battery charged it up checked the specific gravity good to go.
No beans on the start button working, so I decided that the bike needed a spring cleaning anyway. So got me a can of deoxit d5 and started cleaning connectors grounds.
After the battery and the cleaning and now my new startus interruptus issue. Turned on the ignition and now I have a warning light. Not a big deal service code, check ECU errors their weren't any, dashboard errors code 07 engine temp sensor. Not a big deal bikes 10 yrs old not a shocker. So ordered a sensor and waited for it to come in the mail.
Fast forward a couple days for the sensor to came in the mail. I figured install the sensor and figure out what was up with my starter issue. Well behold changed the sensor still a code in the dashboard. Figured that maybe the two issues are some how related.
Well went to my starter relay checked all my voltages at the terminals 12 volts key on at the yellow terminal, at the yel oj terminal key on, no voltage on that wire goes to the starter solenoid. Red black wire 12 volts key on, pink brown wire 3.5 volts key on. I was scratching my head on the pink brown wire.
Well got a diagram for the starter relay and figured out that the pink brown wire went directly to the ECU with no splices. Thats when I got my hurting feeling in my wallet. So I changed the wire from the relay terminal to the starter solenoid just in case. Next I took a test lead from chassis ground to the pink brown terminal of the relay and of course the engines spins over fine.
Started testing lockout devices maybe they were holding out that pin on the ECU no beans. Tested the start button circuit everything is working excellent.
Also THANKS GUYS I really appreciate the help maybe fresh ideas can get me back on the road again :laugh:
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Are you 100% sure that you have all of the POS wires on the battery plus, and all of the NEG wires on the battery minus?
It sounds like you forgot a wire on the battery when you changed it out. Or hopefully something simple like that.
I would not go too 'deep' just yet. You may introduce more issues trying to fix it.
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Are you 100% sure that you have all of the POS wires on the battery plus, and all of the NEG wires on the battery minus?
It sounds like you forgot a wire on the battery when you changed it out. Or hopefully something simple like that.
I would not go too 'deep' just yet. You may introduce more issues trying to fix it.
I really wish I forgot to hook up the Startus interruptus fix or the fuse blew on the fix.Really appreciate the help OMG.
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You are talking about a Breva 1100, not a Breva 750 right?
I'm getting suspicious about that pink wire that has 3.5v on it when the ECU is connected, and zero when it is disconnected. Since the other side of the starter relay coil has +12v on it, it is safe to say that the ECU provides a ground on the pink wire when the starter is activated.
So you disconnect the ECU and the voltage drops? How can that be? You should be reading +12v on both sides of the starter relay coil with the key on before the starter button is pressed. Is there something else connected to the pink wire or some leakage to ground or another circuit along its path?
Are you able to temporarily disconnect the pink wire from the ECU leaving all the others intact? If so, turn the key on and hang a small low wattage 12v light bulb on the ECU end of the pink wire. If the bulb glows, the wire will be fine. Then ground the pink wire to confirm the starter relay operates.
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...... The pink brown wire had 3.5 volts for some reason I can't explain.
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ECU equipped bikes essentially run a computer(ECU) ... 3.5v or 5v is a common voltage for logic boards. My experience with my 2012 Norge was a complete shut-down of all ECU functions when attempting to start bike - battery was 12.4v with ign off. I was advised to check earth and battery connections which I did, followed forums'startus interruptus' solution re: replace relay feed wire with hot wire from battery which worked- now have replaced battery. A guess was loading diminished battery when cranking dropped ECU feed voltage below set threshold switching ECU off for self protection... It is possible there is another fault yet to be corrected, at the moment bike is cranking and running too well to start troubleshooting a non-event. Hope this helps.
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The wire that feeds 12v to the supply side of the relay, where does it originate? KiwiDave is right, that circuit should have 12v on each side of the relay, 12v in, through the coil, 12v out, to be grounded by the ECM. (if I'm understanding this circuit correctly). With the ECM disconnected.
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The wire that feeds 12v to the supply side of the relay, where does it originate? KiwiDave is right, that circuit should have 12v on each side of the relay, 12v in, through the coil, 12v out, to be grounded by the ECM. (if I'm understanding this circuit correctly). With the ECM disconnected.
Except that with the ECU disconnected, there will be 0 volts on both sides of the coil because the injection relay will not be energised. That's why I suggested to remove the pink wire from the ECU, so it could be fired up.
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So concerned about this, I went and measured the voltage on my 1200 Sport which has the same arrangement. The full positive battery voltage was measured on both sides of the relay coil before the start button was pressed. So the 3.5v you are measuring is definitely an issue.
Using an ohms meter, measure the continuity of the pink wire from the starter relay to the ECU (unplugged). It should measure very low. Then measure from the pink wire to the frame of the motorcycle. It should be infinity. If either of these results differ, then please post the results here.
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So concerned about this, I went and measured the voltage on my 1200 Sport which has the same arrangement. The full positive battery voltage was measured on both sides of the relay coil before the start button was pressed. So the 3.5v you are measuring is definitely an issue.
Using an ohms meter, measure the continuity of the pink wire from the starter relay to the ECU (unplugged). It should measure very low. Then measure from the pink wire to the frame of the motorcycle. It should be infinity. If either of these results differ, then please post the results here.
Thanks Kiwi for testing that out on your bike for me and confirming something isn't correct with the wire. I will get back to everyone this weekend to test all of this out. I really can't put sentences together to explain how appreciative I am of everyone's help. Really everyone Thank You All So Much
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Using an ohms meter, measure the continuity of the pink wire from the starter relay to the ECU (unplugged). It should measure very low. Then measure from the pink wire to the frame of the motorcycle. It should be infinity. If either of these results differ, then please post the results here.
I followed your directions the pink brown wire to ECU connector ohm reading was real low which was fantastic, hooked the ECU connector back again, tested the pink brown wire to ground and it was infinity.
I guess that leaves me with a cooked ECU?
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Cooked Ecm? Not necessarily. Ecm is always my last bet. Where does the wire on the other side of the coil originate? Before I condemn the ECM I would be checking that whole circuit three ways from Sunday, eliminating every other possibility. What if the wire that feeds that coil has low voltage? Try piggybacking 12 volts jumped from the battery + to the 12 v feed of that relay, see if that makes a difference.
A disclaimer, I am new to Moto Guzzis, so not familiar with them. But I have been turning wrenches professionally for 39 years.
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I followed your directions the pink brown wire to ECU connector ohm reading was real low which was fantastic, hooked the ECU connector back again, tested the pink brown wire to ground and it was infinity.
I guess that leaves me with a cooked ECU?
I'm starting to think this way. The final step is to disconnect the pink wire somewhere along its path, either at the ECU or the starter relay, but do not unplug the ECU. Then check the voltage at the pink wire end of the starter relay coil and see if it's now jumped up to 12 volts. If it has, then I'd be looking for a replacement ECU to at least try as a substitute.
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Cooked Ecm? Not necessarily. Ecm is always my last bet. Where does the wire on the other side of the coil originate? Before I condemn the ECM I would be checking that whole circuit three ways from Sunday, eliminating every other possibility. What if the wire that feeds that coil has low voltage? Try piggybacking 12 volts jumped from the battery + to the 12 v feed of that relay, see if that makes a difference.
A disclaimer, I am new to Moto Guzzis, so not familiar with them. But I have been turning wrenches professionally for 39 years.
The pink brown wire starts at Pin 1 of the ECU to control side of the relay, the red black wire comes from pin 17 of the ECU, pin 17 powers the oxygen sensor, auxiliary injection relay control side, and starter relay. So I can safely say pin 17 is feeder for the starter relay. I disassembled the harness completely following that pink brown wire to the end of the earth. Everything inside the harness was in excellent condition no kind of alarm.
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I'm starting to think this way. The final step is to disconnect the pink wire somewhere along its path, either at the ECU or the starter relay, but do not unplug the ECU. Then check the voltage at the pink wire end of the starter relay coil and see if it's now jumped up to 12 volts. If it has, then I'd be looking for a replacement ECU to at least try as a substitute.
Well damn looks like an ECU is in my future any ideas were to source a used one?
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You could try PinWall Cycle Parts for one.
Or, what would be the harm in cutting the pink wire loose, and bring it out to a push button with the other side connected to chassis? It would be crude, and maybe it mightn't have any interlocks for starting in gear or side stand down, but it might get you by for a while until an ECU becomes available.
I would free the pink wire from the starter relay, and wire in a new one to the new push button. Then when you score a replacement ECU, it will be easy to return it to stock.
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Conceivably you could just wire up a starter relay direct, to hell with that ECM.
Finding someone close with one to plug in would be nice.
A couple of things I would check before I condemn the ECM, make sure it's getting good power and ground, a headlamp wired across at the ECM connector should burn brightly. I use a 9003 headlamp as test light. A voltmeter can show 12v and still not carry a load. Prove current can get to the ECM.
The last thing I'd do, get violent with it. Have someone hold that start button down and twist, tug, flex, and pull every connection you can lay your hands on. Bang the ECM with a screwdriver handle. Gently.