Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: pete roper on March 07, 2016, 12:21:42 AM
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Why I rarely work on old stuff nowadays?
OK, So this bloke phones me, he has a '76 LeMans, what most of us call a Mk I. Hasn't ridden it in years since his clutch shat itself. Despite my misgivings I say "Bring me the motive unit and I'll have a look."
It was apparently stored in a clean, dry environment.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1524/25282046190_19324703af_z.jpg)
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1544/25484970281_e236e0bebd_z.jpg)
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1555/25484948681_b8896431f7_z.jpg)
If it wasn't for the fact it has matching numbers I'd be throwing it in a skip!
Pete
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Oh my lord. In all my years of wrenching I never saw th the likes of that.
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Seriously? I hope this dude has deep pockets! :shocked: :popcorn:
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I doubt it. 1970's bike? Probably expects 1970's prices.
He has a crankcase and a pair of head castings. Everything else is scrap. The flywheel is stuffed, all the clutch componentry is stuffed, the disintegrating clutch has milled the front off the gearbox, the bevel box is stuffed.
Its a piece of scrap. What a shame. Pay me $300 and he can take the shit away. If he wants me to rebuild it he pays me $20,000 up front and I'll give him change, maybe......
Pete
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I've seen worse motorbikes come back to life again, it's a question of will and money. You don't want to mess with old obsolete crap? understandable. I could see how someone else would, when it comes to a LM.
Yes, I tried (and own) 2010's bikes.
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Yes, it can come back to life. No worries! But I'm not going to spend hours of my life findind obscure, obsolete parts and reconditioning them for nothing just because you reckon your bike is a 'Classic'. Nor am I willing to farm out the sourcing of said parts to anybody else because, hello, if I rebuild it, I have to carry the warranty. I'm not willing to use untested shit bought by the sort of person who stores his Mk 1 Lemon in a dam!
Pete
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This is why every LM owner, or any old clunker for that matter, ought to be able to repair his by himself. Fortunately it's not hard to do with Tonti guzzis, even for an "uncertified maintainer" like myself. Once an LM is running, it's worth the effort.
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What has he spent the $300 on Pete ?
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What has he spent the $300 on Pete ?
For Pete the taking the piece of shit apart I would guess.
Dean
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I agree with Pete, it is pretty bad off. We have restored Guzzi's just as bad or worse.
It will be a long process and will be expensive but the mechanical parts are not much of an issue.
We probably have most of it in Stock and what we do not have is marginal and obtainable.
Body parts may be a little scarcer.
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I ran across this approach for removing rust yesterday and hope it works as well as it seems. Will find a couple of test pieces to try first.
https://youtu.be/qi8qIxK4IlA
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For Pete the taking the piece of shit apart I would guess.
Dean
Exactly.
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I rather do that job than this one.
(https://scontent.fash1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlf1/v/t1.0-9/12801150_854390268016439_3718568941199878491_n.jpg?oh=2d45fd584bf877ed4aa06b5286283a3e&oe=5750FE32)
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Oh, and before I'm accused of gouging I can tell you it didn't come apart easily. Those pics show only the tip of the iceberg.
Most of the crap in the sump is variations on the theme of iron oxide. The rods are substantially eaten away as are the timing sprockets. The integrity of the rods and most likely the crank have been severely compromised and even if they hadn't been the amount of erosion will of thrown the balance factors to the shithouse. Cam and followers are likewise compromised, the rocker carriers are flaking and the rocker spindles are history along with the bushes.
This is not an engine that will 'Come good' with a little bit of TLC.
Not a single part of the clutch is salvageable. The flywheel splines are beyond saving, both pressure and intermediate plate teeth are severely compromised.
The bevelbox is junk. Both the pinion splines and teeth are history and due to wear and contamination there is at least 12 thou end float in the pinion bearings.
I haven't opened up the gearbox yet but the input hub is scrap, the case itself has had the front milled out by the failed friction plate centre and the output shaft splines are well on their way to spline heaven.
I haven't even started measuring things properly for size or run-out and really there is little point. I'd just be wasting more of the bloke's money.
Pete
PS. That looks like fun Charlie....NOT! They really aren't the easiest things to crab the early FI Calis!
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So what you're eluding to is, apart from that, everything is ok then ?? :thumb:
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Oh, and before I'm accused of gouging I can tell you it didn't come apart easily.
Who would have thought? You'd think that something like that would practically *fall* apart. :smiley: If he has a boat, though.... it would make a fine anchor.
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Turd polish!
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Aw, come on. A couple shots of WD-40 and she'll be as good as new! :thumb:
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Rust is probably all that's holding it together. A squirt of WD-40 and it will dissolve into a puddle of slag. :evil:
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"But it was running perfectly when I dropped it off!"
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic001/rusty_guzzi_004_zpsz340w8mc.jpg)
Sure. :shocked:
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Sad owner turned up today. I showed him the carnage. He agreed it was probably beyond saving at reasonable cost. I pointed out that for the money he'd have to spend he could buy a decent 1200 Sport or Griso.
I'll let that seed germinate.......... :evil:
Pete
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The sump pan looks salvageable, just what I'm looking for If he decides he's not going to do anything with it.
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I have several. What's one worth to you?
Pete
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have sent you a PM. Bill
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That's a shame Pete
Did he store it without oil?
I had my LM V sitting for a long time when I was working, not nearly as long as that but probably 5 years where it didn't turn. I overfilled with cheap oil and it sat in a wooden shed outside.
When I drained and opened the motor and gearbox it was prefect, not a hint of oxide on any part
John
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have sent you a PM. Bill
Nuttin's come through......
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Sad owner turned up today. I showed him the carnage. He agreed it was probably beyond saving at reasonable cost. I pointed out that for the money he'd have to spend he could buy a decent 1200 Sport or Griso.
I'll let that seed germinate.......... :evil:
Pete
And for the money he could recoup most of his investment should he want to sell the LM. A Griso or Sports he will loose 50% of the value as soon as he signs the paperwork and turns the key. At least that's how it works in the states.
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That's why he wouldn't probably buy a new one.
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Jeez Pete, it's a bit sad, do you think the poor guy genuinely thought he could have his bike repaired ? Is the Guzzi relatively simple to work on, how long does it take to get that far in?
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Yes, and it can be, at a price. Stripping and measuring? Three hours+. He got it cheap because I was sorry for him.
You want some idea of the costs? Price up everything but the block, sump and head castings. Then add in the machining work that may or may not involve tunnel boring the case, turning up cam bearings and pinning and drilling them.
Then come back and tell me that you have a 'Mate' who can do it for five grand.
Sorry. Your trolling is dull and unimaginative.
Pete
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It's going to take me a long time to be able to use this forum properly. I'm looking at your comment following my question about how hard it is to attempt something of that magnitude. To me I can't imagine bringing something like that back to life, regardless of cost. I just thought the poor bloke had to learn a painful lesson about how not to treat his bike then expect some magic to be performed. I didn't think I'd suggested that I had a mate who could do it for five grand anywhere. How is my response seen as trolling ? And if so, what makes it dull and unimaginative?
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This bike is best put back together and put on ebay as barn find, and sell for gold.
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Jeez Pete, it's a bit sad, do you think the poor guy genuinely thought he could have his bike repaired ? Is the Guzzi relatively simple to work on, how long does it take to get that far in?
To put it in perspective I recently had the top end done done on the 1100 sport mainly due to a pice of the carb slide entering a cylinder, if you hear a bad noise turn it off fortunately the motor was at idle at the time. We obviously did both cylinders as the bike had about 140 000kms, for new rings, cam followers, valves, K line guides associated machining, a few new carb parts and a bloke that knows what he is doing ran about 3k.
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Good. All youse blokes who reckon its easily salvageable send me your email addresses and I'll give them to him. You can then explain why a crank 40g out of balance with compromised rods and timing gear blew itself up after your rebuild that was so much cheaper than the bloke who knows nothing in Bungendore.
I'll be happy to oblige.
Pete
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It's going to take me a long time to be able to use this forum properly. I'm looking at your comment following my question about how hard it is to attempt something of that magnitude. To me I can't imagine bringing something like that back to life, regardless of cost. I just thought the poor bloke had to learn a painful lesson about how not to treat his bike then expect some magic to be performed. I didn't think I'd suggested that I had a mate who could do it for five grand anywhere. How is my response seen as trolling ? And if so, what makes it dull and unimaginative?
Pete's been trolled enough that he sometimes just assumes the worst...
But put a couple of pints in him and he becomes a warm and fuzzy teddy bear or maybe that's a warm and fuzzy koala (wait, no he was already the koala all teeth and claws).
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Any machine that far deteriorated cannot be repaired to a roadworthy standard and be economically pleasing to both parties. Just my opinion but I've seen it many times, and unless the thing is rare or has emotional attachment that is the truth. I've had customers get mad at me when I gave a truthful estimate on such a project . More times than not the shop that takes it on will end up owning it when the customer abandons it unless it's paid for up front.
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Did I miss a link to other pictures of the actual bike?
I can only see a crankshaft with some surface rust and pan with sludge.
The rebuild cost (engine) is moderate compared to a beveldrive Ducati of the same era.
At least most parts are available for Moto Guzzi's.
Part of the enjoyment of old bikes is working on them yourself, if you can not or will not learn how to do so you either get some contemporary plastic bike or pay someone to do it for you on the old model.
The pictures posted look nothing out of the usual, sludge washes off, rust can be removed, worn parts can be replaced as can various castings like a transmission case.
Are people that afraid in this modern world, I hope not.
Pete, Sell it to this Kiwi genius, apparently he is more qualified at Moto Guzzi repair than you are. :grin:
Dean
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I'm waiting for someone to tell you that you don't know what you're talking about. :wink:
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A sad death by idiotic neglect.
Where was it stored?
I'm in the middle of a resurection of a 1977 R100RS that hasnt run since 1993, stored as it was last ridden, no rust in the engine, even the oils were fairly clear. Anything rubber is toast.
I much prefer working on Guzzi's, you need a special tool to go for a dump on beemers.
Pete, keep smiling.
Cheers
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(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic001/fix%20it_zpsrrntghn4.jpg)
Available in shop colours.
:grin:
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"You wonder????"
Far too often and too frequently out loud, according to my wife. :thewife:
Todd.
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I much prefer working on Guzzi's, you need a special tool to go for a dump on beemers.
:smiley: :smiley: True, true..
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Ouch!
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Nice resto. I personally don't like *Over* restorations and no early '70's Guzzi ever left the factory looking like that but that isn't relevant to the argument.
As I said very early on if it didn't have matching numbers I would throw it in the skip.
It does have matching numbers so it has a certain 'Value' because of that. That's all though.
I also stated that it was a terrible shame but that it isn't economically viable for it to be restored. Not that it couldn't be.
Why are there no pictures of the entire bike? Because I made it very clear to the owner that I had ZERO interest in doing a full cosmetic restoration. That isn't my business. It isn't what I do. I said I would strip and assess the motive unit. Going beyond the motor was futile.
Yes. You could start off with a crankcase and frame and a rusty fork staunchion and build a *Genuine* LeMans out of it. But it would be something *You* would do. Not something you pay someone to do, unless you have REALLY deep pockets.
There are plenty of people who would take this sort of shitty disaster. I'm not one of them and nor am I willing to lie to the customer or raise his hopes as to the resurrection of his piece of flogged out crap can be done cheaply. I have more than enough work sorting out the problems supplied by the factory and other 'Workshops' with the modern bikes to want to sign myself up to this sort of bottomless pit of anger and disappointment.
The end.
Pete
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Do you fix bikes too? All righty then!
I have a hunred dollars and a dream. Errr.... can you help me? :boozing:
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic001/shadow%20bike_zpsfqgyi0be.jpg)
:shocked: :laugh: :laugh:
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There's a chap near me that restores Buggati's. You basically supply him with a pile of scrap and a blank cheque and wait 5 years for him to ring. Not sure many guzzi owners are up for that kind of deal.