Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: samfrank on March 19, 2016, 12:59:10 PM
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A big shout out to Phil at Cleveland Moto where I bought this bike new. It was determined that Piaggio would replace this motor under warranty. While out riding late last summer, after an all days ride, I was experiencing the red triangle warning light. It would come on and go off and come on again. Shortly there after, at a stop, I noticed a serious oil leak coming from high up on the left cylinder. I got it home on the trailer and then to Cleveland Moto. At first Phil thought it was a bad oil sending switch then a lambda sensor. These were changed out but the issues prevailed. After discussion with corporate it was determined that a new motor would be placed under warranty. After all is said and done Phil believes it was from running the motorcycle in the way too hot zone. I have over 15k miles on it. It was also HIGHLY recommended to run nothing higher than 89 octane on this model here in the US.
Anyway, just want to send kudos to this dealership for putting the customer first.
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I am a bit confused. Where did the actual oil leak turn out to be? Why was the new motor needed? Ran out of oil? That would be one hell of a leak. Please explain the reasoning behind using the lower octane fuel in the US. I almost always run what is rated as premium fuel at 91. Been okay for 13,000 miles so far. Glad your issues were resolved to your satisfaction.
GliderJohn
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Warning sticker said No E-85.
I've been running 93 octane?
HELP, what the heck do us yanks run in these things....
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When it comes to things mechanical in nature I always rely on the experts. The leak was up high. Between the valve cover and jug (?). I suppose from being so hot there could have been a phase change in the aluminum parts there by opening a seal/gasket(?). The 93 octane burns too hot thus causing issues with the plugs perhaps. Maybe Phil will see this and chime in.
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The 93 octane burns too hot
no...
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no...
Agree. Also, what do they mean by running in the hot zone? Are they kind of pointing a finger of blame on the owner? Unless his address is Death Valley, seems a bit unfair.
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Bee Ess of the highest order. Always run the highest octane with lowest ethanol content. If anyone suggests otherwise, chastise them rigorously.
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If the machine is throwing up a service error then whatever is causing it should be visible in the OBD or, for a bit more info, on PADS. An oil leak will not throw up a service warning until the sump is empty and you'd have to be covered head to toe in oil and slip-sliding all over the place to get to that stage!
The oil pressure switch lives in the valley so a leak from there is not going to manifest itself up high on the motor. I have had a couple of porous head castings but a more likely candidate here would seem to be a leaky o-ring on the spark plug tube betwixt cambox and head, the breather cover on the back of the head or a leaky breather hose itself.
If the bike was running fine apart from the service warning and the oil leak I really can't understand why it was decided a complete new engine was appropriate but I'm glad it's sorted, at least I hope it is.
Pete
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Run the lowest octane gas that does not make it ping/knock.
Lower octane has higher energy content than high octane. Will give marginally better power and mileage.....but.... if your high octane contains a different amount of ethanol, then run whatever has the lowest ethanol. Some brands also claim a different
E85 never. I've not seen that stuff in these parts.
Unless you heard a lot of pinging/knocking then gas was not to blame for running hot.
I'd love to see the inside of that engine, at least inside the oil pan.
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Agree. Also, what do they mean by running in the hot zone? Are they kind of pointing a finger of blame on the owner? Unless his address is Death Valley, seems a bit unfair.
To me that was the implication. How ever it happened the motor was overheated. It's not like I'm new to motorcycling. I just wanted to share my experience with the forum. Please don't shoot the messenger. :cool: a
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Agree on the ethanol part Mark , but a low compression ditch pump runs just fine on 87 RON . In fact, low compression engines tend to make more power on swill :laugh:
We're not talking about a low compression ditch pump. We're talking 8V. Highest octane, lowest ethanol content. 'Nuff said.
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Run the lowest octane gas that does not make it ping/knock.
Lower octane has higher energy content than high octane. Will give marginally better power and mileage...
Rubbish. Different octane ratings will not produce different power or mileage.
Edit: Just read Dusty's last post. He knows the truth.
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High octane gasoline doesn't burn any hotter than low octane . Or produce more power , or burn cleaner , or increase fuel mileage , or make you anymore attractive to potential mates .
Dusty
That is unfortunately true. Even when I put in 102 octane I can't even make eye contact!
:-)
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My understanding is that all gas is the same for energy potential. Higher octane allows a higher compression which, if designed into the engine specs, will allow more power to be made. It's always been explained to me that the motor must be designed for the compression-whatever it is-and the gas is then specified for that design.
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^^^^^^^^
What KOF said.
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Bee Ess of the highest order. Always run the highest octane with lowest ethanol content. If anyone suggests otherwise, chastise them rigorously.
Thx, what I figured. No way am I running 'regular' in an air cooled V-twin that puts out 100 hp.
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"It was also HIGHLY recommended..."
Can you pls clear that up? Exactly who said not to run higher than 89 octane? Was it the dealer, someone else or a manufacturer rep?
Not targeting the messenger.
If its a manufacturer rep then that should be more than word of mouth because the manual clearly states a minimum of unleaded 90 octane in the USA meaning its a requirement. A different recommendation ought to have someone's name behind it (if it is an official recommendation from Piaggio) or it isn't worth much.
Bringing this up because you can bet there are now more than a few Norge owners thinking "Hmmm, maybe I'll start...".
I'm thinking that if you said you were using less than 90 octane all the time, maybe Piaggio would be saying quite different because they could point to using a lesser grade of fuel than prescribed.
Who among us would put 10w30 oil in the Norge except gods 5%?
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Quote from Norge Pilot:
"Who among us would put 10w30 oil in the Norge except gods 5%?"
Hell no, not 10w30 but 20w-50. It's worked for years in my T-3. LOL
GliderJohn
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Concur with NP. The Norge manual states a minimum of 90 PON.
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Concur with NP. The Norge manual states a minimum of 90 PON.
It's not that simple. At higher altitudes you can't even buy 90 PON. Air density is a factor too. The bikes timing also automatically adjusts for this type of thing. Compression-altitude-timing all adapt to the conditions at hand.
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Well dang Mark , now my feelings are hurt , thought I was saying the same thing . OK , my emos are on vacation again LOL Tough having a conversation with some of you smart guys
Didn't you read my edited post after your 'let the flaming begin' post?
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Didn't you read my edited post after your 'let the flaming begin' post?
OK OK , you got me there :laugh: I do enjoy it when you smart guys get involved in our Plebeian conversations . Interesting to read Pete's input re the oil leak , guess really the main thing here is to appreciate Phil's efforts and to learn what we may to prevent this from happening again .
Dusty
Oh , and dispelling myths is good also :thumb:
Dusty
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It's not that simple. At higher altitudes you can't even buy 90 PON. Air density is a factor too. The bikes timing also automatically adjusts for this type of thing. Compression-altitude-timing all adapt to the conditions at hand.
Yes it is. OP was told to use a max of 87 octane. Manual says 90. The point is he was advised to go against the manufacturer's requirements. You're just complicating the issue.
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Yes it is. OP was told to use a max of 87 octane. Manual says 90. The point is he was advised to go against the manufacturer's requirements. You're just complicating the issue.
OK , now is a good time time to clear something up for me . Pete and I had a discussion re knock sensors on Guzzis , help me out here , my understanding is that MG has never used any form of knock sensor . Is this wrong ? Did I misunderstand Pete ?
Dusty
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There's no knock sensor. The ECU can change the timing based on certain conditions, but that has to do with temperature etc, not fuel used.
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It's not that simple. At higher altitudes you can't even buy 90 PON. Air density is a factor too. The bikes timing also automatically adjusts for this type of thing. Compression-altitude-timing all adapt to the conditions at hand.
Some (few) motor management systems with knock sensors can adjust parameters to take advantage of higher octane fuel. But my Stelvio can't! It *can* adjust the amount of fuel to compensate for differences in air density (altitude). Compression is not adaptable though :grin:
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There's no knock sensor. The ECU can change the timing based on certain conditions, but that has to do with temperature etc, not fuel used.
Thanks Mark .
Dusty
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what ever the problem, I would wager that the fuel has nothing to do with it. High octane, low octane (so long as it's 90 RON), ethanol, no ethanol. Blaming the fuel is BS.
I know that the Norge computer isn't programmed for E85 but NASCAR and Indy Cars run on the stuff. And Indy Cars used to run 100% Methanol.
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High altitude just clouds the concern. Is the Norge being ridden only at high altitudes?
Its really simple, either there is a requirement change from the manufacturer or there isn't. If the manufacture made the recommendation then that would go for all Norges using the 8V or did they make a special requirement for this one Norge.
For once, can we bypass all the tangents and deal with points to some end without this and that twist and before some needs to start talking about ...?
There is an implied relationship between higher than 89 octane and an 8V engine running itself empty of oil to the point of destruction requiring replacement, somehow that simply doesn't add up.
If it does add up then everyone following the fuel requirement that is "in writing" is doing it wrong.
There are a lot of unanswered questions. The bike stopped running, red triangle...how much oil got pumped out? How long did it take (no way that much oil leaks and you don't know it).
These are questions to OP can easily answer.
So:
1. Who made the recommendation for the 89 octane?
2. How long was oil leaking from the engine?
3. How much (guesstimate) oil leaked out before it stopped?
4. Did you check the oil level when it stopped running?
5. Did you pull any error codes afterward?
OP?
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Sorry, na$car uses E15, not E85.
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what ever the problem, I would wager that the fuel has nothing to do with it.
Agree. That was a drift :laugh:
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Given how grossly over cooled the 8V is I can't see it having cooked itself. As a case in point look at Dave's bike AKA the 'Melted Munter' which was left idling by its PO until it cooked it's phase sensor, (This is the safety cut off btw.). I stripped it expecting a mountain of damage and found.......NOTHING! Even the rings were OK!
I also cannot see how it would of been rideable if it had somehow pumped out 3.5 litres of oil! It would of looked like the Exon Valdez and been unrideable.
As for fuel? The 8V has a lovely, very *Modern* combustion chamber which allows a higher CR than the old 2VPC motor and will effectively run on pretty much any old swill. That doesn't mean that it will like it and you can feel a distinct drop in performance and it will be more vibratory with lower octane petrol. Adding ethanol simply makes a bad situation much worse but since we don't get much E10 over here and I have no desire to ride a crapplily running bike I've never used it. When I rode a Griso in the US I was at that time usually able to find E-free gas from memory.
As stated, I'm glad the OP's bike is now running well. I just can't fathom why it needed a new motor to achieve it!
Pete
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Maybe the factory just wants the whole motor back to see what occurred. :blank:
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Warning sticker said No E-85.
I've been running 93 octane?
HELP, what the heck do us yanks run in these things....
Hello, high octane and E85 are NOT the same thing! E85 is 85% ethanol, not very many vehicles can use it, and no motorcycles that i know of. If a person ran some E85 thinking it was premium unleaded, that would cause problems. Certainly it would run very lean, if at all, and possibly overheat the engine to the point of failure.
Fwiw, I once saw a cruiser rider put straight pipes on without rejetting, the engine failed from the resulting run hot condition in under 2000 miles..... Not saying every model is that sensitive of course.
E85 is common in areas near ethanol plants, which is much of the Midwest. Probably no so much elsewhere. For example, did not see any in Texas awhile back when i went there. Many newer pickups will run on it. We use it at work in a couple hundred f150's.
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High altitude just clouds the concern. Is the Norge being ridden only at high altitudes?
Its really simple, either there is a requirement change from the manufacturer or there isn't. If the manufacture made the recommendation then that would go for all Norges using the 8V or did they make a special requirement for this one Norge.
For once, can we bypass all the tangents and deal with points to some end without this and that twist and before some needs to start talking about ...?
There is an implied relationship between higher than 89 octane and an 8V engine running itself empty of oil to the point of destruction requiring replacement, somehow that simply doesn't add up.
If it does add up then everyone following the fuel requirement that is "in writing" is doing it wrong.
There are a lot of unanswered questions. The bike stopped running, red triangle...how much oil got pumped out? How long did it take (no way that much oil leaks and you don't know it).
These are questions to OP can easily answer.
So:
1. Who made the recommendation for the 89 octane?
2. How long was oil leaking from the engine?
3. How much (guesstimate) oil leaked out before it stopped?
4. Did you check the oil level when it stopped running?
5. Did you pull any error codes afterward?
1. The dealer but he was emphasizing ethanol content.
2. AFAIK a very short period time.
3. I would have to say not too much. But really have no idea.
4. No
5. No. But the dealer probably did.
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Thanks.
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OK, despite the digression into debates about octane, and not meaning to shoot the messenger for posting this, it is still unclear to me what the actual engine failure was and what caused the engine to fail to such an extent and in such a fashion that Paggio would agree to an engine replacement under warranty?
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The octane was one implied reason for the failure. At least we know the octane thing isn't coming from Piaggio. As for ethanol, there are plenty of places where non-ethanol gas isn't easily available, especially if your trip doesn't follow the route of particular gas stations.
I am guessing, lack of lubrication. The reason for that hasn't been ascertained.
Again, a spec but we can say it isn't as a primary cause:
Overheating
Fuel choice
Sensors/switches
The oil leak
??? Would that be right?
That does leave insufficient oil put in when the last oil change was performed. If (big if) at the last oil change insufficient oil or the wrong oil (gear oil for example) was put in, surely that would cause significant damage and if done by the dealer a new engine would be some compensation?
Pep Boys has been known to use all kinds of fluids in place of brake fluid so things like that do happen. Last service, tech grabs final drive oil and fills the engine.
What would that do?
If one quart of oil were put in, how long would that engine run before eating itself?
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I suspects that if the normal "suspects" were replaced and it still leaked I would then suspect that Pete's comment about a porous head could well be on the button.
There could well be a second problem running along side the leak, perhaps in the lubrication system which flashed up the warning. Two problems with the same motor could well convince Guzzi to want a look at it.
I know the heron head smallblock is a completely different beast than the modern 8 valve but I can assure you that although it will run on 91 octane it goes a helluva lot better and knock a helluva lot less on 95. We don't get ethanol down here on the mainland :wink: of New Zealand and to that I say thank goodness.
Pleased to see that the OP got his problem sorted. That is the main thing. :thumb:
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I know the heron head smallblock is a completely different beast than the modern 8 valve but I can assure you that although it will run on 91 octane it goes a helluva lot better and knock a helluva lot less on 95. We don't get ethanol down here on the mainland :wink: of New Zealand and to that I say thank goodness.
Pleased to see that the OP got his problem sorted. That is the main thing. :thumb:
Just to remind people reading that octane levels are measured consistently but published differently in different areas of the world. When NZ consumers see '95', they are seeing the RON value; in North America, we see the average of the RON value and the (usually lower) MON value. Thus a fuel sold as 91 in Kansas might be the same as a fuel sold as 95 in Christchurch (setting aside the ethanol question). See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating#Measurement_methods (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating#Measurement_methods) for a fairly clear explanation.
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If they replaced the entire motor, means a new engine serial number yes? It would be interesting to see if that is what they really did, replace the entire engine. Not saying they did not but sometimes what is said vs meant vs understood can be very different.
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Sorry, na$car uses E15, not E85.
OK, thanks for clarifying. Actually that makes total sense.
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OK, thanks for clarifying. Actually that makes total sense.
You are correct about the old CART Champ cars and now Indy cars running ethanol . In fact , I believe the 410 CI winged sprint cars , and USAC Silver Crown and sprint cars also burn ethanol . Most of our dirt track roundy round boys here burn alcohol , so it must be fairly common .
Dusty
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High octane gasoline doesn't burn any hotter than low octane . Or produce more power , or burn cleaner , or increase fuel mileage , or make you anymore attractive to potential mates .
Dusty
Wait, what............... . Son of a gun. :shocked:
John Henry
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Wait, what............... . Son of a gun. :shocked:
John Henry
Yes , the truth is often painful :violent1:
Dusty
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The engine failure wasn't from "improper" octane fuel.
I'm also convinced it wasn't from lack of oil in engine. In that scenario, the operator would feel tremendous heat emanating from the engine and most definitely some strange noises too, telling him something was wrong. It's also surprisingly difficult to ruin an engine right away that way. Just look at some M/C rallies where they deliberately try to kill a running engine. It's not that easy.
For Piaggio to so easily agree to the replacement engine and not to try and put some blame on the owner, tells me they found a defect of some kind right away.
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The engine failure wasn't from "improper" octane fuel.
I'm also convinced it wasn't from lack of oil in engine. In that scenario, the operator would feel tremendous heat emanating from the engine and most definitely some strange noises too, telling him something was wrong. It's also surprisingly difficult to ruin an engine right away that way. Just look at some M/C rallies where they deliberately try to kill a running engine. It's not that easy.
For Piaggio to so easily agree to the replacement engine and not to try and put some blame on the owner, tells me they found a defect of some kind right away.
:thumb: :1:
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The easiest way to explain octane ratings is that comparatively the higher the number the slower it burns. Most engines tolerate a wide range if not being used at high load.
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No problem believing a tank of e85 100 octane fuel would melt a Norge engine from a lean overheating condition. Also no problem believing that Phil and Moto Guzzi would replace a Norge engine for a good will gesture to a good customer.
Good for the Original poster hope all works out well. The Norge is an outstanding motorcycle in the sport touring field.
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Too cool!
An "octane thread"!
Oil, tubes, oatmeal, catharsis, style, hipsters, bobbers and knobbers having grown so very passe. :evil:
Todd.
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Oil leak
Error code
Octane
Need a new motor
Since all of these have a nearly impossible connection with each other, I vote for high tire pressure.
Next thing you know some 'tard' out there will believe that high octane does damage engines. After all, they read it on the internit.
:violent1:
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You are correct about the old CART Champ cars and now Indy cars running ethanol . In fact , I believe the 410 CI winged sprint cars , and USAC Silver Crown and sprint cars also burn ethanol . Most of our dirt track roundy round boys here burn alcohol , so it must be fairly common .
Dusty
that was my point about E85 in Indy Cars.
But NASCAR used to run on gasoline, now E15 which makes sense.
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Lower octane has higher energy content than high octane. Will give marginally better power and mileage.....but.... if your high octane contains a different amount of ethanol, then run whatever has the lowest ethanol. Some brands also claim a different
Are you sure you don't have that backwards? I get noticeably better mileage with 91 octane than i do with 87 octane, to the tune of about 75 extra miles range per tank. I was told that this is because the higher octane burns slower and produces power through more of the power stroke. The same holds true in my car with a 4.6L V8 but not to the same degree.
My experience is that 87 Octane and 91 Octane pretty much have almost exactly the same dollars per mile, (I pay more for premium but burn less so it's a wash) but the extra efficiency from 91 Octane gets me more miles per tank and fewer fuel stops.
Power is hard to tell, not really a noticeable difference.
The other advantage to higher octane is less pinging on hot days / hard rides.
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Are you sure you don't have that backwards? I get noticeably better mileage with 91 octane than i do with 87 octane, to the tune of about 75 extra miles range per tank. I was told that this is because the higher octane burns slower and produces power through more of the power stroke. The same holds true in my car with a 4.6L V8 but not to the same degree.
My experience is that 87 Octane and 91 Octane pretty much have almost exactly the same dollars per mile, (I pay more for premium but burn less so it's a wash) but the extra efficiency from 91 Octane gets me more miles per tank and fewer fuel stops.
Power is hard to tell, not really a noticeable difference.
The other advantage to higher octane is less pinging on hot days / hard rides.
The only way you are seeing that much difference is if the 87 is 10% alcohol and the 91 is straight gas . Higher oct doesn't "burn" slower , it is just harder to ignite . Once burning all gasoline burns at the same rate . Is this on your Norge , could be because the Norge needs 91 oct .
Dusty
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It all depends on which fuel the engine was designed to use.
Like many performance related issues, like loud exhausts equally more HP, it is simply an inaccurate comparison.
There will always be those who use a lower octane fuel in an engine designed tonuse higher octane and then claim it ran better and vice versa.
Means nothing. Look long and hard enough and someone on the Internet can show you a gasoline engine that runs on water.
Here you go, no octane.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AFKjGQFJzg8
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A good read on octane from a probably reliable source.. http://www.racegas.com/article/10
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Bee Ess of the highest order. Always run the highest octane with lowest ethanol content. If anyone suggests otherwise, chastise them rigorously.
Yup agreed .......... That's the proper diet mine are fed from day one.
Ciao.