Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kiwi_Roy on March 28, 2016, 06:43:59 PM
-
I have just started looking at small blocks.
Is the V65 the same as a Lario or is there a difference in engine type?
I think I read the Lario is a Heron head whatever that means
I am also looking at a V50, I presume it's just a smaller bore V65.
Is there any gotchas like chrome bores to be aware of?
What are the most desirable models?
-
Unlike the big bikes there are lots of variations in small blocks from model to model. The V50 Monza and V50III are the top of the pile IMO, the primary running gear difference is taller primary gearing on the Monza.
My V65 Lario was a hoot but every time I set the valves and saw the wonky forked rockers...never did trust them.
We did lots of touring miles on a V65sp, very valve-gap sensitive, it'll burn a valve quickly if you let them drift. DAMHIK
Dyna-S or the like is required, stock points are a really bad idea.
-
The V50 can be quite a nice little bike, especially when ridden hard on twisty roads where they will out-handle just about anything else. They have Heron heads, meaning the head has no combustion chamber in it. The top of the piston is recessed and this is where combustion takes place. The valves are vertical. I think the early ones had chrome bores but Nigusil came in later. I have a 1980 V50 which needed new barrels/pistons because the chrome was peeling.
You will find some info in Guzziology and workshop manuals are available.
-
I went and looked at this one tonight. The owner had built the exhaust, quite well done I thought
Does it look good value to you guys?
No dash or speedo
Needs new tires.
Chrome bores would certainly nix it for me.
Would be a lot of work to put back to stock though,
http://vancouver.craigslist.ca/van/mcy/5507878275.html
-
That model year had chrome bores!
-
My 1979 V50 II doesn't appear to have chrome bores - I had the heads off about a month ago to make sure it was all OK (bike hasn't been on the road since 1997!).
Quirky looking bike. Exhaust looks well made, hopefully the rest of the guys work was to the same standard...
-
That model year had chrome bores!
Correct. Nickasil bores started with the mark II in '79. The 4 valve models are not Herons. They are pent roof, and breathe very well, indeed.. with an exhilarating rush to redline. However...to the best of my knowledge nobody has truly found out why they drop valves/wipe cam lobes. I *think* it's a valve train geometry thing.
The two valve engines are a sweet thing, indeed, with their own character. As mentioned above, keep a close eye on the exhaust valves. If they begin to stretch between valve checks, they are talkin to you. It is absolutely no big deal to swap them out.
The best of the lot? Just MHO, number one is the Monza, good luck finding one.. :smiley: :smiley: I'll have one this weekend, with any luck at all..second is the Mark III, basically a Monza in street clothes, and after that the various V65s. I, personally, am really fond of the SP.
-
On the pre buy inspection, check the end play of the crankshaft by pulling the clutch lever to move it forward and a screwdriver in the timing hole to pry it aft. More than a millimeter and it's a problem. The end float is controlled by two half moon washers that sandwich a flange on the crank. There were a few that had improperly made half moon washers that would deform when the case halfs were bolted together. The symptoms of this is the engine runs and idles fine but dies when the clutch lever is pulled. There is a rear end mod to improve oiling to the pinion bearings that needs to be done. It consists of drilling a hole and turning the spacer plate to create a pocket for oil to feed the hole which leads to the pinion bearings. The swing arm is to be level to use the oil level hole.
There is a really good transmission breather mod that allows for the transmission to be filled to the level hole with the bike leaning over on its sidestand. It consists of pulling the starter and drilling a hole, tapping it for a grease fitting with the ball and spring removed and a hose attached . There is a natural breather box inside the transmission located behind the starter in the upper,aft portion between the webs.
-
There is a really good transmission breather mod that allows for the transmission to be filled to the level hole with the bike leaning over on its sidestand. It consists of pulling the starter and drilling a hole, tapping it for a grease fitting with the ball and spring removed and a hose attached . There is a natural breather box inside the transmission located behind the starter in the upper,aft portion between the webs.
Hi, John.. any pix? This is the first time I've heard of this mod.. sounds interesting.
-
Chuck I sent that to you by mail, last fall .look thru that pack of info, it's in there
-
Chuck I sent that to you by mail, last fall .look thru that pack of info, it's in there
Well, that's embarrassing. :embarrassed: I either missed it or (ahem) forgot it. Thanks.
-
There is a really good transmission breather mod that allows for the transmission to be filled to the level hole with the bike leaning over on its sidestand. It consists of pulling the starter and drilling a hole, tapping it for a grease fitting with the ball and spring removed and a hose attached . There is a natural breather box inside the transmission located behind the starter in the upper,aft portion between the webs.
I would really like to see this too please John.
-
This is a must read for someone just starting to test the small block waters:
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_small_blocks_older_small_block_issues_.html (http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_small_blocks_older_small_block_issues_.html)
I have a V50 Monza myself. Fantastic bikes.
-
I was hoping Chuck would scan the document and take a picture of a transmission with the back cover off, I lost my picture of it. Dave Hewitt who used to be the tech rep came up with it and was surprised and disappointed the factory didn't use it because it works so well.
-
This is a must read for someone just starting to test the small block waters:
Thanks for the link, I will read it this evening.
-
Chuck, check your pm's. Does anybody have a pic of a small block transmission looking forward with the back cover off?
-
Chuck, check your pm's. Does anybody have a pic of a small block transmission looking forward with the back cover off?
No picture in the info you sent me. When I can (it'll probably be a month or so, according to the Cutter) I'll pull the back off the spare Lario transmission and send you a picture. You can mark it up, post it, and we'll add to the collective knowledge of the old small blocks.
Interestingly, I'm now running a baby beaver transmission in the Lario with the full liter of oil. It has the same top hat breather, but is completely different. After roughly 5000 miles, there is just the smallest amount of mist around the breather, so *something* is different with the beaver breathing.
-
Chuck, check your pm's. Does anybody have a pic of a small block transmission looking forward with the back cover off?
What info in particular are you looking for?
-
Actually we need two pics, one of the left side area behind the starter that shows the webs going aft, and one of the inside of the transmission case looking forward that shows the cast box in the upper left.
-
Ok, I'm currently looking at a Lario, the owner says it's an 86.
I'm aware of the valve issue with these bikes.
Will it have Chrome bores?
Can I check the build date from the Vin No, I have it but don't have the owners permission to post here.
Thanks for all the help so far.
Roy
-
Ok, I'm currently looking at a Lario, the owner says it's an 86.
I'm aware of the valve issue with these bikes.
Will it have Chrome bores?
Can I check the build date from the Vin No, I have it but don't have the owners permission to post here.
Thanks for all the help so far.
Roy
No, they have Nikasil bores. No problem with any small block having chrome bores except the very early pre 79s.
Be aware of the valve issues and be prepared to "experiment" with the valve train on the Lario. The 86 will also need the rear drive mod.
-
Thanks Chuck, that's a relief.
When I get it home I will measure the clearance as a reference point.
I read Greg Benders article on the subject that Broondan linked to, no doubt I will have lot's more questions.
I saw the final drive mod a while back, perhaps it's been done already.
-
Thanks Chuck, that's a relief.
When I get it home I will measure the clearance as a reference point.
I read Greg Benders article on the subject that Broondan linked to, no doubt I will have lot's more questions.
I saw the final drive mod a while back, perhaps it's been done already.
Perhaps it has, but you need to know. :smiley: I understand the rear wheel locking up is an unpleasant experience..
-
Chuck,
I have spent half an our searching for the description of modification
Do you have the link or who it was wrote the fix
Thanks
Roy
-
Chuck,
I have spent half an our searching for the description of modification
Do you have the link or who it was wrote the fix
Thanks
Roy
Actually, I did, Roy. Lemme look..
Edit:
Here ya go, Roy..
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=68540.0
-
Ha, Straight from the horse's mouth, how could I wish for better?
Thanks Chuck
-
Is the V65 the same as a Lario or is there a difference in engine type?
There's a difference: the Lario is a 4v pent-roof type. That's why there are so few of them: Guzzi released them too soon [to keep the big boss happy, heh] and after they sorted out the problems, stopped production because they were sick of the headaches.
I think I read the Lario is a Heron head whatever that means
No, all the other small blocks are Heron heads. Heron heads have the head surface flat, and the combustion chamber is actually cast into the piston crowns. It had various advantages [production, fuel economy] but serious drawbacks in terms of absolute HP output due to limited breathing potential [which wasn't too much of an issue at the slow revs direct drive airplane motors turn. Read Sir Harry Ricardo's _The High Speed Internal Combustion Engine_ for more details...]
-
Look what followed me home, an 86 Lario with only 40,000 km on the clock and well kept IMHO, what do you think?
Mostly original paint, I'm sure the mufflers aren't original they sure sound good though.
Came with fairly decent tires, a new battery and brake overhaul.
I discussed the rear drive mods with the owner, he didn't know if they had been done, to be fair I think old English iron is more his thing,
would this have been done in the factory by 86?
(http://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s526/Kiwi_Roy/Lario/DSCN0630_zpsuya6fjfe.jpg)
BTW that's the BC Pen gatehouse in the background, I live just behind LOL
(http://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s526/Kiwi_Roy/Lario/DSCN0624_zps1b4lfbne.jpg)
Better than residing here at least.
I had to fix one of the funky front indicators, the contacts make cheap Chinese look good, may be Lucas like the starter.
I will graft in some decent lamp holders, soldered the bulb in place for now.
Will add a decent pair of Italian Fiamm Freeway Blaster Horns to replace the little squeaker it has now.
As soon as I can I will measure the valve lash, at what mileage do they start coming apart?
First impression, it feels like a fun bike.
Please tell me all about my new girlfriend, I know nothing about these creatures.
-
Welcome to the world of smallblocks Roy! :thumb:
-
Roy, *that* is a great looking Lario. I love the silver ones.
I had to fix one of the funky front indicators, the contacts make cheap Chinese look good
You have the euro front turn signals, which are like Pete says, "rocking horse shit." I'll gladly trade your POS turn signals for mine. :evil: :smiley: No need to thank me.
The bike certainly appears to be original and in wonderful condition.
I discussed the rear drive mods with the owner, he didn't know if they had been done, to be fair I think old English iron is more his thing,
would this have been done in the factory by 86?
No. It was first done in 87.
As soon as I can I will measure the valve lash, at what mileage do they start coming apart?
Around 6000 miles. (10 K) Some have made it over 20000, with strict observation of a 7K rpm rev limit. The problem is, power is still going up at that point, and past the 7800 red line. That's where the fun is. :smiley: Compared to the 2V small block, they are lacking in bottom end torque, but really come alive above 5K rpm. They are just a hoot to operate.
Kev dawg will be along shortly to tell you the problem can be cured by throwing thousands of dollars (!!) at the heads. I, personally, don't believe it. Megacycle used to make cams with extra lubrication holes for them, but quit because their cam lobes got wiped off, too.
Mine had 19000 miles on it when I got it, and when I tore it down, it showed signs of having dropped valves at least twice at that point.
It's a shame about the valve problem, because it is one of the most fun bikes Guzzi has ever built.
For probably more information than you want to know about Larios..
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=58695.0
-
Dawg here.
Bike comes with third-world valves/too tight springs-- they go BANG. People replace with third-world valves (made in China). Do yourself a service and pay a little more (non-Guzzi content) and get good valves (USA Made Kibblewhites are very good!) and lash caps. This will give your Lario a good start and a prayers chance. There's more to the story, so don't think a good valve train is the holy grail. Make sure you have the right cam. My biggest beef is putting two piece Chinese valves in a bike that's known to pop valve heads. Again, it's a good start! 2-3 hundred more greenbacks and WILDLY unpopular.
-
Actually, Iceblue's valves are one piece, that's why they need the lash caps, and made in Taiwan. Machining on them is poor, though.
Dawg.. the Kibblewhites need lash caps? That surprises me. Are they one piece? I've not seriously looked at them. When I talked to them, they said they just modified one of their stock Suzuki valves for the Lario, IIRC. My memory is suspect, though.
There is method to my questioning.. I'm planning on "doing" the Monza heads.
TIA
-
Welcome to the world of smallblocks Roy! :thumb:
I second that. Smallblocks forever!
-
Small blocks are the best
Love my v7 stone powered TT so much, ultimate small block in my eyes
-
Actually, Iceblue's valves are one piece, that's why they need the lash caps, and made in Taiwan. Machining on them is poor, though.
Dawg.. the Kibblewhites need lash caps? That surprises me. Are they one piece? I've not seriously looked at them. When I talked to them, they said they just modified one of their stock Suzuki valves for the Lario, IIRC. My memory is suspect, though.
There is method to my questioning.. I'm planning on "doing" the Monza heads.
TIA
My valves do use lash caps according to my parts list. Remember, I'm using bigger valves than the stock set-up so not sure what's available stock. I do know these are quality valves, etc. you pay for them no doubt. It's not something I blink an eye at with these issues. I have never said I'm right, but I will admit to saying "if ever there was a time..."
Give them your spec and see what they come up with. Can't hurt with stretch issues. I've got the performance double springs and ti keepers and only slightly under stock strength springs if memory serves me.
-
Around 6000 miles. (10 K) Some have made it over 20000, with strict observation of a 7K rpm rev limit. The problem is, power is still going up at that point, and past the 7800 red line. That's where the fun is. :smiley:
Thanks again Charlie I don't know how I would have got on without your guidance with the Eldorado.
So it's way overdue to drop a valve then.
Seems like I should do something with the valves this winter.
I do know it has dual valve springs according to PO
I will follow the link you posted as time permits.
-
Dawg here.
Bike comes with third-world valves/too tight springs-- they go BANG. People replace with third-world valves (made in China). Do yourself a service and pay a little more (non-Guzzi content) and get good valves (USA Made Kibblewhites are very good!) and lash caps. This will give your Lario a good start and a prayers chance. There's more to the story, so don't think a good valve train is the holy grail. Make sure you have the right cam. My biggest beef is putting two piece Chinese valves in a bike that's known to pop valve heads. Again, it's a good start! 2-3 hundred more greenbacks and WILDLY unpopular.
Kevdog3019, thanks for telling me what I didn't want to hear, I think.
I will seek some good valves.
What are lash caps, do they fit on the valve stem outboard of the collets?
What about the valve springs do they need upgrading also?
I'm not one to hover around the red line, cam I extent the life by staying under 7k?
I will measure the tappets before I ride it again.
I'm sure the Chinese use top quality Melamine in their valves but I'd rather pay double and do it once.
Thanks
Roy
-
Kevdog3019, thanks for telling me what I didn't want to hear, I think.
I will seek some good valves.
What are lash caps, do they fit on the valve stem outboard of the collets?
What about the valve springs do they need upgrading also?
I'm not one to hover around the red line, cam I extent the life by staying under 7k?
I will measure the tappets before I ride it again.
Thanks
Roy
Roy, the Lario Rehab thread takes about 4 hours to go through, and will give you a good feel for the Lario.
I'm not one to hover around the red line, cam I extent the life by staying under 7k?
Definitely. It takes a *lot* of fun away from the Lario engine, however. Kevdog has said he does this.
Valves are made in one of two ways. Most valves are two piece, friction welded about an inch or so below the head. This allows the head to be made of heat resistant alloy, and the stem to be made of a wear resistant alloy, a good combination.
Because of the Lario (and other small blocks) tendency to spit the head off the valve, some have experimented with one piece valves. That, at least does away with the join between the two dissimilar metals.
But. That requires using a lash cap. It is a hardened cap that fits over the valve stem to keep the rocker arm from deforming the end of the valve.
What about the valve springs do they need upgrading also?
Yes, but there are two schools of thought on that, too. One is that the double springs are exerting too much spring pressure on the valve, possibly causing the heads to pop off.
The other is the springs are too weak, and not closing the valves rapidly enough at high rpm for heat transfer to the head, and the valves get too hot and drop a head.
:smiley:
Got all that?
Ok. Significantly, in my opinion, when Guzzi upgraded the small block valve train, they used a single progressively wound spring. This is what is called the "Nevada" spring, and the modern small blocks use it and it is reliable.
Kevdog's engine was done by Ed Milich.. a racer. His 2 valve small block engines have been tough to beat. Back when I was going to Daytona, he was a regular winner. Kev's has higher compression, bigger valves, and heavier springs. All (except for the heavier valves) is designed to keep the valve on the seat longer because the mods make even more heat. That doesn't matter to a race engine that is only designed to go a few races between overhauls.
Is that the definitive answer to the 4V small block problem?
*I don't know* but my gut feeling is the stock Guzzi valve, which is not third world as Kev alludes to, is pretty good. Not as good as a Kibblewhite, but pretty good. That, combined with the Nevada spring seems to *me* to be the best combination.
Rod Yeomans RIP was a well known small block guy. I'd recommend looking at Greg Bender's site here:
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_small_blocks_older_small_block_issues_.html
All this should muddy the waters.. :smiley:
-
Roy, the Lario Rehab thread takes about 4 hours to go through, and will give you a good feel for the Lario.Definitely. It takes a *lot* of fun away from the Lario engine, however. Kevdog has said he does this.
Valves are made in one of two ways. Most valves are two piece, friction welded about an inch or so below the head. This allows the head to be made of heat resistant alloy, and the stem to be made of a wear resistant alloy, a good combination.
Because of the Lario (and other small blocks) tendency to spit the head off the valve, some have experimented with one piece valves. That, at least does away with the join between the two dissimilar metals.
But. That requires using a lash cap. It is a hardened cap that fits over the valve stem to keep the rocker arm from deforming the end of the valve.Yes, but there are two schools of thought on that, too. One is that the double springs are exerting too much spring pressure on the valve, possibly causing the heads to pop off.
The other is the springs are too weak, and not closing the valves rapidly enough at high rpm for heat transfer to the head, and the valves get too hot and drop a head.
:smiley:
Got all that?
Ok. Significantly, in my opinion, when Guzzi upgraded the small block valve train, they used a single progressively wound spring. This is what is called the "Nevada" spring, and the modern small blocks use it and it is reliable.
Kevdog's engine was done by Ed Milich.. a racer. His 2 valve small block engines have been tough to beat. Back when I was going to Daytona, he was a regular winner. Kev's has higher compression, bigger valves, and heavier springs. All (except for the heavier valves) is designed to keep the valve on the seat longer because the mods make even more heat. That doesn't matter to a race engine that is only designed to go a few races between overhauls.
Is that the definitive answer to the 4V small block problem?
*I don't know* but my gut feeling is the stock Guzzi valve, which is not third world as Kev alludes to, is pretty good. Not as good as a Kibblewhite, but pretty good. That, combined with the Nevada spring seems to *me* to be the best combination.
Rod Yeomans RIP was a well known small block guy. I'd recommend looking at Greg Bender's site here:
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_small_blocks_older_small_block_issues_.html
All this should muddy the waters.. :smiley:
Yep... except you forgot to mention the extent of cam wear that also lent itself to destruction of the valves as gaps got closer and closer. I've got it somewhere, but Ed set it up so that the resting spring rate was less than the stock springs and the compressed rate was near equal. In other words, no valve float. The picture is big here and all things added up didn't look pretty. I've got low end grunt now, so the "happy zone" isn't as big a deal. The stock Lario is a hoot up top because it's pretty mundane down low. That gets addicting. A machine will dictate how you drive it and the wrists got very happy.
With bigger valves comes greater surface area. There may be more heat, but dissipation is probably greater as well. What is the interval in which a race engine driven in a normal (everyday driver manner) has to be torn down and rebuilt? I dare say a race engine is built pretty heavy duty for its cause, except the extremism is still too much for the long haul. Without extremism? I don't think that's a good argument tbh. Those guys beat the shit out of those things. Take a normal car and beat it around a track for awhile. I bet it doesn't last as long as a race engine.
-
(http://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s526/Kiwi_Roy/Lario/DSCN0624_zps1b4lfbne.jpg)
...More fun to ride a slow bike fast
I had a V65sp and a Lario, no contest in grin factor. Find a nice lonely highway and run it through the gears not sparing the rod, it's a wonderful package in it's element.
-
...More fun to ride a slow bike fast
I had a V65sp and a Lario, no contest in grin factor. Find a nice lonely highway and run it through the gears not sparing the rod, it's a wonderful package in it's element.
Absolutely. It really shines when you're caning the tits off it. (Roperism)
Get rid of those tires.