Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: flip on April 02, 2016, 01:33:10 PM
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I just saw this at Guzzitech, a big bore kit for the 8V 1200 engines:
http://www.guzzitech.com/store/product/gt-1380-big-bore-pistons-cylinders/
Anyone know anything about it?
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Hummm, $1300 for the kit (less gaskets), maybe $100 for the gaskets, another $200-300 to re-balance the crank, then $300 to flash the ECU. Add in $1,000 for labor and this becomes a really expensive proposition. I don't see the point.
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Interesting. Would this turn my Norge into a "1400" cc Norge with essentially the same motor as the current California "1400"?
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Maybe, except the engine on the California is fugly, the one in the Norge, nice.
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"Available on backorder"
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Looked at this a while back. There are a variety of reasons why big boring a 1200 is not a straightforward job, it's not simply a matter of buying 1400 barrels and pistons, there are issues with gaskets and the lack of a second plug may cause serious difficulties.
If and when a wrecked 1400 turns up at a decent price Mark and I might look at it but I think the gains will be meagre. It'll be more about bragging rights than performance but that's what that source sells and thrives on.
Pete
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$4000-$5000 by the time its all done and if you're not doing it yourself.
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If it was Harley, people would be all over it!
Screamin' Goose. :popcorn:
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Harley would call it something like a Screaming Eagle Stage III kit. Moto Guzzi (err. GuzziTech in this case) needs a cool name to sell this.
Perhaps the Bastard Griso Full Bore Kit. :boozing:
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Not exactly "drop in" if you have to balance the crank?
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Rebalance the crank and full remap (which no doubt entails a poorly modified stock map and unnecessary extra hardware) without any consideration of the requirements of the newly cavernous combustion chamber. The 1400 is dual-plugged for a reason.
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OK, I know I'm in "left field" of the "peanut gallery" and have "no dog in the race" but as a casual observer of these things, how is it that this is available but a aftermarket "roller kit" is not?
Are these different engines; the ones needing rollers and the big-bore kittable ones?
As far as practicality, I guess were a fella to "use up" a 1200 8v, this'd be kinda fun to throw at it in the course of a rebuild.
Wasn't that awful long ago that 1340cc or 80cubic inches was huuuge.
Todd.
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I have no dog in the fight either. The reason for that is because I know there is a lot more to producing a successful capacity increase and performance lift than simply bunging a big set of jugs on.
Mark and I were considering the possibility of doing something like this using Cali 14 parts but the more we looked into it the less appealing it became. If we do go ahead with it at some point it would purely be for the intellectual challenge and at least my guess is that it would be a disappointing waste of money. Even if you could get it to burn acceptably with a single plug if you're using the W5AM there is no real way to know how some of the unknown correction tables in the ECU are going to react when asked to cope with the big input changes needed with that sort of capacity hike. It might do it easily. It might also turn into a huge, colossal shitfight! Let's face it some pretty strange stuff happens even when you play with simple things like the CO trim!
Pete
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"Wasn't all that long ago" that formula 1 ran 1.5 liter normally aspirated engines that produced 160 HP, and the racing was good .
Dusty
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Ya ............. I'm with Pete on this EXPENSIVE science experiment.
:popcorn:
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So how much would this kit bump the numbers on an 8v motor?
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You don't see as many motorcylce big bore kits these days. It was a lot easier with carbs so maybe fuel injection is the stumbling block.
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So how much would this kit bump the numbers on an 8v motor?
Look at the specs of the 1400.
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Seems like I would actually be more curious/interested in kits for the 1100???
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You don't see as many motorcylce big bore kits these days. It was a lot easier with carbs so maybe fuel injection is the stumbling block.
The H-D motors have a huge array of aftermarket and factory direct, bolt-on kits available. Many people make big bore kits for the Big Twin.
I am amazed at what the factory offers in their Screamin Eagle (SE) catalog now. You can buy a bolt-on big bore kit to take your 96-inch or 103 stock motor out to 110 CID without splitting the cases now for 1195.00.
A friend picked up his CVO Ultra last Friday. It was already a whopping 110 CID and he had H-D bolt on H-D parts to take it out to 117 inches.
He went whole hog(!) too. H-D offers several iterations of ported heads that are as cheap or cheaper than having a porter do the work. He went with the 117 (1927 cc) big bore kit, ported heads, roller rockers and a power cam, all bolt-on things from H-D.
Their first dyno run showed 120+ HP and 125 torque at the rear wheel at about 5000 RPM. He is breaking it in now before having the final mapping done to squeeze a bit more out of it.
He had already installed Screamin Eagle (SE) gas-charged cartridges in his forks and SE rear shocks.
I have to really work to stay up with him on my Stelvio! In fact, in a direct top gear roll-on, the H-D will walk away from the Guzzi!
I'm considering making my Super Glide a 110.
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Before everyones knickers get too tightly wadded about this kit of Todd's, why doesn't someone ask him what's needed? Todd doesn't usually throw out something he has no knowledge of. I'm betting he's done the experiment.
K
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Well, somebody has to say it....
"There ain't no substitute for cubes" :grin:
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Well, somebody has to say it....
"There ain't no substitute for cubes" :grin:
Or - There's no replacement for displacement.
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Or - There's no replacement for displacement.
Or - Way too much is just about right.
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"To much is just enough!".
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The H-D motors have a huge array of aftermarket and factory direct, bolt-on kits available. Many people make big bore kits for the Big Twin.
I am amazed at what the factory offers in their Screamin Eagle (SE) catalog now. You can buy a bolt-on big bore kit to take your 96-inch or 103 stock motor out to 110 CID without splitting the cases now for 1195.00.
A friend picked up his CVO Ultra last Friday. It was already a whopping 110 CID and he had H-D bolt on H-D parts to take it out to 117 inches.
He went whole hog(!) too. H-D offers several iterations of ported heads that are as cheap or cheaper than having a porter do the work. He went with the 117 (1927 cc) big bore kit, ported heads, roller rockers and a power cam, all bolt-on things from H-D.
Their first dyno run showed 120+ HP and 125 torque at the rear wheel at about 5000 RPM. He is breaking it in now before having the final mapping done to squeeze a bit more out of it.
He had already installed Screamin Eagle (SE) gas-charged cartridges in his forks and SE rear shocks.
I have to really work to stay up with him on my Stelvio! In fact, in a direct top gear roll-on, the H-D will walk away from the Guzzi!
I'm considering making my Super Glide a 110.
He should now be a good race for the Norge GT 8V. :popcorn:
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Or - There's no replacement for displacement.
Still miss my old 429SCJ.
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Look at the specs of the 1400.
Would be a little inaccurate on displaying performance . The 8v is geared and fuelled much differently. If looking at the 1400 Cali is the example it would be a downgrade.
I'll email Todd at Guzzitech and ask.
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I applaud anyone building a 125+ HP Guzzi not matter how.
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My guess is you'd be giving up some top end rev's for some more torque down low , as is the case with the 1400. If I could change anything on my 8v griso it would be to a lighter flywheel, clutch, and lower gearing . Would hate to give up any top end as that's where the 8v shines. My other guess is knowing Todd he has the answers we're looking for, can't wait to learn more.
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My guess is you'd be giving up some top end rev's for some more torque down low , as is the case with the 1400. If I could change anything on my 8v griso it would be to a lighter flywheel, clutch, and lower gearing . Would hate to give up any top end as that's where the 8v shines. My other guess is knowing Todd he has the answers we're looking for, can't wait to learn more.
Yes... amazing what lighter clutch and rods along with lower gearing do for some lower end giddyup. Changes the character completely.
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There is a German dealer who sells a kit, that has bored cylinders, new Mahle pistons that weigh the same as the stockers, and he knows about a map too.
That would be a much more easy swap. But most easy would be a 1400 cali engine from a wreck.
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Would be a little inaccurate on displaying performance . The 8v is geared and fuelled much differently. If looking at the 1400 Cali is the example it would be a downgrade.
:rolleyes: Gearing has nothing to do with engine performance. The 1400 is an 8V. The kit is basically 1400 barrels and Pistons. The 1400 makes gobs of torque (89 ft/lb @ 2750) which is an indication that with the right pipe you could easily add 5-10 HP over the 1200, and would have enough torque to pull down small buildings.
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My guess is you'd be giving up some top end rev's for some more torque down low , as is the case with the 1400. If I could change anything on my 8v griso it would be to a lighter flywheel, clutch, and lower gearing . Would hate to give up any top end as that's where the 8v shines. My other guess is knowing Todd he has the answers we're looking for, can't wait to learn more.
Seems like All I do is shift, shift and more shifting with the 6 speed!
Would prefer a proper 5 speed instead. :evil:
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Seems like All I do is shift, shift and more shifting with the 6 speed!
Would prefer a proper 5 speed instead. :evil:
Forget 5th, shift past it. Run third more and forget about 2nd mostly as well. The Norge doesn't mind some RPMS so you can run 3rd around town, to get up to highway speeds and it makes for a lot less shifting.
Personally, I wouldn't mind a 7 speed with 6th and 7th being closer together than 5th and 6th and use that for mile munching. the 1200 could probably pull the close 7th easily and result in better MPG at elevated freeway speeds.
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Forget 5th, shift past it. Run third more and forget about 2nd mostly as well. The Norge doesn't mind some RPMS so you can run 3rd around town, to get up to highway speeds and it makes for a lot less shifting.
Personally, I wouldn't mind a 7 speed with 6th and 7th being closer together than 5th and 6th and use that for mile munching. the 1200 could probably pull the close 7th easily and result in better MPG at elevated freeway speeds.
Don't tell me, your auto is a 9 speed. :boxing:
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I am waiting to figure out how to get the kit needed to do this. http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/Custom%20Bikes/moto_guzzi_millepercento_bb1.htm
Millepercento has tweaked out the old push rod two valve motor in some incredible fashion.
Skippy
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My guess is you'd be giving up some top end rev's for some more torque down low , as is the case with the 1400. If I could change anything on my 8v griso it would be to a lighter flywheel, clutch, and lower gearing . Would hate to give up any top end as that's where the 8v shines. My other guess is knowing Todd he has the answers we're looking for, can't wait to learn more.
Have you ever tried taking the 1400 up to the rev limiter? Top end is very strong. At about 5000 rpm, the engine ceases to remind you of a Harley, and more of Ducati. Well, at least sort of....
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I find the 1400 pulls harder from 0 up to around 6500 and then tapers while the 1200 rips from 5000 right up to 8500. I'd be hesitant to push the 14 to the limiter but the griso kind of begs you to do so. Two different power curves, both tuned well for there intended purposes. would be great to be able to combine the two in one mill.
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Before everyones knickers get too tightly wadded about this kit of Todd's, why doesn't someone ask him what's needed? Todd doesn't usually throw out something he has no knowledge of. I'm betting he's done the experiment.
K
With all due respect, I bought a Power Commander and an "O2 optimizer" from Todd and it was a total waste of money. The guy from "Techno Research" was an ass to boot. I don't know anything about this kit- but as far as bringing something to market- people will do it so long as they think it will sell.
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I find the 1400 pulls harder from 0 up to around 6500 and then tapers while the 1200 rips from 5000 right up to 8500. I'd be hesitant to push the 14 to the limiter but the griso kind of begs you to do so. Two different power curves, both tuned well for there intended purposes. would be great to be able to combine the two in one mill.
The 1400 pulls MUCH harder off the bottom than the 1200, but it will also go right up to the rev limiter with no fade whatsoever. That Harleyesque low end is deceptive. It makes you feel that there can't be a top end rush. But there is.
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:rolleyes: Gearing has nothing to do with engine performance. The 1400 is an 8V. The kit is basically 1400 barrels and Pistons. The 1400 makes gobs of torque (89 ft/lb @ 2750) which is an indication that with the right pipe you could easily add 5-10 HP over the 1200, and would have enough torque to pull down small buildings.
As long as you could get the combustion chambers to work without the second plug or use the 7 or maybe the 5SM I'd guess. Without the second plug I think the bottom end could be problematic. No gaurantee I'm right but I'd approach with caution and carry a big stick.......
Pete
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I am waiting to figure out how to get the kit needed to do this. http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/Custom%20Bikes/moto_guzzi_millepercento_bb1.htm
Millepercento has tweaked out the old push rod two valve motor in some incredible fashion.
Skippy
Contact Millepercento, they know it all. The owner Stefano Perego. After that send a large sum to Italy. After that you will have the strongest Guzzi in the Americas.
https://www.facebook.com/stefano.perego.35
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As long as you could get the combustion chambers to work without the second plug or use the 7 or maybe the 5SM I'd guess. Without the second plug I think the bottom end could be problematic. No gaurantee I'm right but I'd approach with caution and carry a big stick.......
No, I think your correct.
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For the New Engines , the Big Bore Kit taking 95mm cylinders & replacing them with 104mm cylinders .. larger by .75mm than a Corvette .. is a Drop In assembly - no machining required .
Factory Pistons - Factory Cylinders .. drop 'em in .
As to combustion chambers , the Moto Guzzi traditionally ran a wide Squish Band Area and that is what will be increased by adding the 104mm Jugs , no harm - no foul .
Get the engine Balanced front to back .. pressure plate right thru to whatever's hanging off the nose of the crankshaft .
Tell them what rear gearing / tire size you're running , what RPM your engine sits at most of the time so say 3,000 RPM ,
they Balance for 3,000 RPM with a Harmonic of 6,000 RPM .. now the two sweet spots .. leaving 6,000 heading to 9,000
is smooth 'n composed .
Back in the Battle of The Twins days , Udo Gietl of Butler & Smith Inc. BMW crafted the DAYTONA winning flat twin Daytona Orange Bike
engines punching them out to 94mm - & - sent the entire rotating assembly to E.E.LINDSKOG in Boston , Mass.
I used them on my BMW R90 build .. can't say enough good about having the engine Balanced .. worth the scrimping .. motor just sang thru the RPM range like a hot knife .
Engine oiling limitations had one shifting quick @ 8400 .
Down the road get some 52mm ? Guzzie Cruiser Custom / Touring Throttle Bodies .. or have yours bored out to whatever they'll take .
Single Spark Plug is centralized so flame front isn't off set is not a bad thing .
Haven't had a late model Guzzi engine apart to see the head casting , but back on the BMW my 1975 R90 head had enough meat & access to drill & tap for a second spark plug .. which I did running ACCELL boosters & Twin Plugs .
Is it all worth it ?
Absolutely :1:
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OM! Udo Gietl, Butler & Smith! R90! You must be nearly a old as me. I lived within walking distance of Lindskog. Might you know Tom Cutter? (Rubber Chicken Racing Garage). I put an 855cc Blitz kit in an R65. Lindskog balanced the bottom end. Dual plugged the top end with the same sparkers as yourself. My son was able to sort the fueling w/Keihin's. Somewhere around Belleville, Ontario the stock R65 I was passing blew up. Every moving part came out the bottom. The cam shaft in 3 pcs. both rods wound tight on the crank. I saved his fuel tank for a Café project. Kinda like painting kills on the cowl of your airplane. Good fortune, R3~
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Welcome to WG, Tourville.. :smiley:
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Combustion chamber volume may be different between the 1200 and 1400 heads, I haven't checked yet. The 1400 pistons are substantially heavier than the 1200 ones. Mallorying the webs is a prick of a job and I don't want to damage the integrity of the Pistons so I've taken the other route. It's easier to remove weight than to add it.
I dunno if a second plug will be vital? I'm hoping not but there's only one way to find out.
Pete
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(http://thumb.ibb.co/hv23Va/TRIPLE_PLUG_HEADS_Dreifach_Hp2.jpg) (http://ibb.co/hv23Va)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/ktGVAa/Rika_Dreifach_Hp2_t_RIPLE_PLUG_HEADS.jpg) (http://ibb.co/ktGVAa)
image hosting (http://imgbb.com/)
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/bmw-r1100s-r1200s-tech-forum/659058-shreddrs-excellent-big-bore-adventure-aka-hp2s-big-bore-install-thread.html (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/bmw-r1100s-r1200s-tech-forum/659058-shreddrs-excellent-big-bore-adventure-aka-hp2s-big-bore-install-thread.html)
Here's source informative reading on a BMW HP2 Big Bore Build - CP pistons & Connecting Rods .
Triple Plug Heads .
Stock 101mm taken to 104.7mm done well , balanced Rods & Pistons only
original cylinders sent out for bored & Nikasil Lined
Hey Chuck !
R3:
Tom Cutter ! Absolutely .. hell .. I've got an /6 BMW Race Engine Case where the cylinder tore off
the case side wall .. from Todd Schuster around here somewhere ..
Mallorying the Piston Webs .. .. been a long time since we done that one Pete ! :clock:
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(http://thumb.ibb.co/fUOAAa/carillo_rods_HP2_stock_617_grams_each_Carrillo_534_grams_each.jpg) (http://ibb.co/fUOAAa)
HP2 stock 617 grams each, Carrillo 534 grams each
(quote) side by side with R12S stock parts (not the same as the stock HP2S parts but close), with a net weight savings of 100grams/bore or 200 grams (almost 1/2 pound). The weight savings is just an added benefit, because even if it was no weight savings the added displacement and increase in compression (from 12.5:1 to 12.75:1) will make big performance gains, so the weight loss is just icing on the cake!
(http://thumb.ibb.co/m3oowF/carillo_pistons.jpg) (http://ibb.co/m3oowF)
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Mallorying the webs is a proven technique, as I said, it's not one I like so I'm not using it.
Nor am I chasing absurd HP, a quick look at the heads and combustion chambers and the cam timing will tell you that would be pointless. What I'm trying to achieve is more midrange torque with a wide spread. It doesn't need to rev to 10,000. It doesn't even need to go any faster! If I wanted that I'd buy another bike or, if I really wanted to do something so pointless with an 8V Guzzi I'd be looking at lowering/changing the gearing. The 8V's are seriously over geared.
Looks like the 1200 heads are incompatible with the 1400 pistons. Mud mapping would suggest a 12:1 CR, too high for my liking. Although the combustion chamber is very nice we're still stuck with shitty fuels and to run that high a lot of compromises would have to be made. If I remove the required material from the pistons, (Can't safely do it to the heads and it would involve compromises I'm not prepared to make.) then I'd have to star removing metal from the crank, this is all money and I know the stock 1400's are balanced pretty well at the factory. Looks like I'll just spring for a pair of 1400 heads and work from there. It also gives the advantage of better cooling and I suspect that a lot of the idle speed vibration of the stock 1400's is down to the induction plenum and RBW. I'm betting with the good old W5AM system controlling twin TB's, (No need to do anything to them in my book.) it'll be possible to make the engine as smooth as a well tuned 1200.
Another advantage of using the Cali14 heads is of course they the provision for a second plug is already there. A bit more screwing around to fit one but easily doable.
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Those extra cubic inches cost beaucoup rectangular dollars.
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Those extra cubic inches cost beaucoup rectangular dollars.
Oh, buggering about with stuff like this is never going to be cheap. It can be fun though.
I think that one of the major differences I and 'Tourville' have is that we are probably seeking two completely different things from the same engine.
Pete
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:1:
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Wrecked Calis will start turning up soon I'm sure. I'll probably be buying new. Gotta check a few more things before I commit. For one thing I'm wondering if the Cali camboxes are shallower to allow for the extra depth in the head casting? Camchains are the same so somethings gotta give.....