Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: JeffOlson on April 05, 2016, 03:07:26 PM
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I found a nearby source of ethanol-free, pure premium gasoline and am trying a tank's worth in my Norge. Is is just me, or is my Norge running better than before? Perhaps it is just my imagination, given that I paid a good bit more for this pure stuff, but my Norge seems to really like it!
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That's what many people use in small engines such as chain saws/ weed wackers...
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My Norge loves it. I get about an extra 75 miles to the tank compared to 80+ octane ethanol blends. The extra range is way more valuable than the more power and less ping. I estimate my cost per mile is about the same with ethanol free premium vs cheap blends.
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It most definitely loves it...it's noticeably smoother. I found a spot up near Palestine, TX here on a run back from farther north and it was like running liquid gold thru the machine. Just need a tanker truck of that batch...I wonder if it would be possible to simulate by running 104 octane booster thru it every so often....haven't tried it yet.
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The engine doesn't need more octane. Pure gas has more energy than E10. The alcohol kills power and mileage.
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check your states NHRA website.. they might list all the stations that sell non ox premium.. or just google non-ox and your state name
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I have the "PureGas" ap on my phone. That tells me the closest stations with non-ethanol gas and prices. Quite handy.
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Excellent...that was super helpful. I found the site for Texas, matches also with a downloadable app called Pure Gas...looks like there are a couple of options here in town reasonably close by.
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Yeah, the app is handy when travelling. Lets me plan ahead a little bit for road trips when I want to maximize range.
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I wish we could still get pure gas around here. I would gladly pay fifty cents to a dollar more a gallon to have it. They could take the extra money and give it to the "poor" cooperate farmers that are making money off ethanol. Maybe one day another state will get to vote first in the primaries and we can quit catering to the corn lobby.
It is nice picking up a couple of MPG while riding trough Arkansas and Oklahoma.
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I wish we could still get pure gas around here. I would gladly pay fifty cents to a dollar more a gallon to have it. They could take the extra money and give it to the "poor" cooperate farmers that are making money off ethanol. Maybe one day another state will get to vote first in the primaries and we can quit catering to the corn lobby.
It is nice picking up a couple of MPG while riding trough Arkansas and Oklahoma.
Gas stations have to have a 'special license' in order to sell pure gas, just another expense for station owners.
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There are a few places that sell pure gas in the Houston area, but it's all specialty places like marinas, airports, and suppliers of race gas.
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Ethanol I spit at thee. From hell's heart I stab at thee. Die, ethanol, die.
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Maybe in Minnesota , not here . Are you sure of this ?
Dusty
Yeah, in Minnesota you need a special license to dispense gas after eating chili. Blue states you know..
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Yeah, in Minnesota you need a special license to dispense gas after eating chili. Blue states you know..
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Yep, I live in Rochester, MN and only have 4 places to buy pure gas. Single pump at 3 of them and newer Holiday station has one at every pump.
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We need to end the federal corn subsidies and get rid of ethanol in fuel.
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Buy Real Gas (http://www.buyrealgas.com/states.html)
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The Pure-Gas app and website is useful, but not always accurate. Pretty much anyone can add a new station, but in Missoula MT none of the three stations listed on the website (last summer) had ethanol-free gas.
Fortunately, we have a good supply in my town and that's all I've used for the last 8 years
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OP,
when I was touring in germany, you could get 102 octane gas from the pumps on certain stretches. It was the only time my Calvin ran well, ie smooth running, no pinking, good acceleration in all gears, good power at stupid speeds...
So yes, I think it can make a difference, and I think modern guzzis do seem to 'like' better fuel...
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Octane ratings are figured differently in Europe than here. 102 in Europe isn't 102 here.
If your engine doesn't ping on a certain grade of gas higher octane won't make it run better. In fact, it may run worse due to the added octane slowing the burn rate. Removing ethanol from the fuel will make it run better. Ethanol has less energy than gasoline.
High octane fuel isn't "hot stuff". Actually the opposite. Gasoline has a specific BTU content regardless of the octane rating. Higher octane allows higher compression without detonation, allowing the engine to get more power from the fuel.
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Octane ratings are figured differently in Europe than here. 102 in Europe isn't 102 here.
If your engine doesn't ping on a certain grade of gas higher octane won't make it run better. In fact, it may run worse due to the added octane slowing the burn rate. Removing ethanol from the fuel will make it run better. Ethanol has less energy than gasoline.
High octane fuel isn't "hot stuff". Actually the opposite. Gasoline has a specific BTU content regardless of the octane rating. Higher octane allows higher compression without detonation, allowing the engine to get more power from the fuel.
Higher octane fuel doesn't necessarily burn slower. Premium pump gas may or may not burn slower and if it does the difference is slight. High octane race gas is designed to burn fast for high RPM use.
Sunoco has this to say , it's quite interesting to see what those who manufacture fuel have to say about it's properties...
http://www.racegas.com/article/index (http://www.racegas.com/article/index)
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Ahhh, the weekly pure gas vs ethanol vs octane thread.
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It was suggested that I use ethanol free in my tuono as it has a plastic tank and it will prevent tank swelling. I imagine that would apply to most plastic tanks that have not been caswell coated or similar. A station near to me sells it in 5 gallon cans,but I don't notice any difference in performance, and it aint cheap...
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I remember a story in Cycle magazine back in the late 60s or early 70s
Yamaha was testing at Daytona and the bike's were down on speed using the race gas available at the track. They purchased a few gallons of Mobil regular from a local station and picked up the lost power. The high octane fuel was burning too slowly
Cycle went on to test pump gas from a number of stations and declared Mobil regular the "best".
I can't remember the test parameters
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Give a look at the "Pure Gas" website:
http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp (http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp)
When I travel, be it by car or motorcycle, looking for (and finding) ethanol-free fuel is way too much effort.
Sometimes I get lucky and the gas station where I've stopped sells what I want. At such all-too-rare times I always fill up with the ethanol-free fuel.
Most important is to try to keep the E-Free fuel in your motorbike during winter months when there are few opportunities for riding. Ethanol adulterated fuel does not keep well.
'Geezer
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I remember a story in Cycle magazine back in the late 60s or early 70s
Yamaha was testing at Daytona and the bike's were down on speed using the race gas available at the track. They purchased a few gallons of Mobil regular from a local station and picked up the lost power. The high octane fuel was burning too slowly
Cycle went on to test pump gas from a number of stations and declared Mobil regular the "best".
I can't remember the test parameters
Can you find the actual article? Sounds like something interesting....
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I found a nearby source of ethanol-free, pure premium gasoline
The Grange in Issaquah I imagine? A gas station in Black Diamond has it too.
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Ahhh, the weekly pure gas vs ethanol vs octane thread.
Yeah , and now some company is marketing oil made from natural gas , you guys sink your teeth into that :evil:
Oh , gasoline can be made to burn at different rates , and high performance engines require fast burn . High octane only makes gasoline harder to ignite , not burn at a slower rate . Where is Chuckie ?
Dusty
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Actually, there are two nearby sources that I know of, Dave's Palisades, and Bill's Old-Fashion Service. Both are located in Lake Oswego, OR, where we lived for decades and still have our office. I have not yet found any near Olympia, WA, where we are remodeling our cabin hope to live someday...
Since the lack of ethanol seems to make such a difference, and since sources are close to my office, I plan to continue using it, at least in the Norge.
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I run mine on the worse swamp piss I can find.
If it can't handle it, I have the wrong bike.
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Over the course of a year, I track 10-15% better mpg on non-alcohol fuel.
I don't detect that my engines run any better. Seems like octane is octane....a simple quality that lets you expose a fuel to higher compression without it combusting spontaneously (i.e., pinging & engine damage). Engine should only run better if you were using an inadequate level of octane in a previous fuel. Higher octane than needed for an engine can simply waste money and can even reduce mpg.
On the other hand, alcohol tends to be tough on fuel line components & doesn't seem to store as well. So, I just use it for all my cars, motorcycles -- and especially in cans with Stabil for the generator (one of those pleasant PNW accessories).
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We have a favorite station here in Salt Lake City that sells ethanol free premium. I use it in all the motorcycles and mower/trimmers. I have to remember to top off the V7 and fill my gas cans on a week day. On nice days the line at the pumps can be 1/2 block long with motorcycles.
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Yeah , and now some company is marketing oil made from natural gas , you guys sink your teeth into that :evil:
Oh , gasoline can be made to burn at different rates , and high performance engines require fast burn . High octane only makes gasoline harder to ignite , not burn at a slower rate . Where is Chuckie ?
Dusty
Close, high octane gas has additives to prevent spontaneous combustion of the end gases...Detonation and pre ignition are quite complex and there's a lot to it...
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I run "Premium" (albeit E10 mostly) 95% of the time in my Calvin.
Once or twice a summer I'll find myself in a very small town or rural area without any choice other than "regular" I don't know if its all in my mind or perhaps some weird chemical mixture of the two, but it "seems" to run better after one of these "regular" fill -ups.
Thanks for the pure gas app info...looks like it could be useful
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I run "Premium" (albeit E10 mostly) 95% of the time in my Calvin.
Once or twice a summer I'll find myself in a very small town or rural area without any choice other than "regular" I don't know if its all in my mind or perhaps some weird chemical mixture of the two, but it "seems" to run better after one of these "regular" fill -ups.
Thanks for the pure gas app info...looks like it could be useful
Yep, they always run better after you wash them, too.
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I will throw a little fuel on the fire here speaking allegorically.. in the cold winter months ethanol can have some benefits as the ethanol will assist to some degree in handling moisture and condensation.
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If the fuel burns too fast it causes detonation. The higher octane resists the tendancy to explode, therefore reducing the burn rate.
To extract more power you increase compression. If you use 87 octane with high compression the fuel explodes. That's when you hear the pinging (pinking).
If you use high octane with low compression you get no added power.
In my buddy's race cars we use either P116 octane gas or ethanol. The ethanol burns slower and has higher octane. But, to use it we have to rejet almost three times as rich and advance timing a few degrees.
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If the fuel burns too fast it causes detonation. The higher octane resists the tendancy to explode, therefore reducing the burn rate.
To extract more power you increase compression. If you use 87 octane with high compression the fuel explodes. That's when you hear the pinging (pinking).
If you use high octane with low compression you get no added power.
In my buddy's race cars we use either P116 octane gas or ethanol. The ethanol burns slower and has higher octane. But, to use it we have to rejet almost three times as rich and advance timing a few degrees.
No , if the fuel ignites to "early" it causes detonation . A rapid flame front is a good thing in high compression engines .The reason why 87 causes early ignition is that it ignites too easily . Even spark ignitions are capable of enough heat and pressure before the spark to effectively diesel .
Dusty
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Not another petrol thread. :shocked:
Nooooo.....
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Not another petrol thread. :shocked:
Nooooo.....
We could revive the VW Diesel debacle instead! :grin:
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No , if the fuel ignites to "early" it causes detonation . A rapid flame front is a good thing in high compression engines .The reason why 87 causes early ignition is that it ignites too easily . Even spark ignitions are capable of enough heat and pressure before the spark to effectively diesel .
Dusty
Dusty is correct.....This excellent article explains detonation and preignition . Read it, there will be a test :cool: :grin:
http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue54
/EngineBasics.html (http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue54/EngineBasics.html)
And this is by Kevin Cameron.
http://www.factorypipe.com/t_deto.php (http://www.factorypipe.com/t_deto.php)
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Dusty is correct.....This excellent article explains detonation and preignition . Read it, there will be a test :cool: :grin:
http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue54/EngineBasics.html (http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue54/EngineBasics.html)
Thanks Rough , although now reading what I wrote , there needs to be a correction . Detonation occurs in the unburned mixture after ignition , pre-ignition is what most people refer to as pinging, and happens before ignition . Pre-ignition is the more harmful of the two .
Dusty
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Hole in the piston is classic preignition.... Oh, sorry to confuse you with the departed L man in another post :embarrassed:
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Hole in the piston is classic preignition.... Oh, sorry to confuse you with the departed L man in another post :embarrassed:
I have had that happen to me. makes a mess.
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That's right. 87 octane ignites too easily-it explodes quickly in high compression engines. PING! So we increase octane to slow the rate of burn or the volitility so it doesn't explode. And it burns more completely allowing the engine to extract more power available.
Gasoline has the same amount of energy no matter the octane. Higer compression alows more power while controlling the rate of combustion without damaging the engine.
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That's right. 87 octane ignites too easily-it explodes quickly in high compression engines. PING! So we increase octane to slow the rate of burn or the volitility so it doesn't explode. And it burns more completely allowing the engine to extract more power available.
Gasoline has the same amount of energy no matter the octane. Higer compression alows more power while controlling the rate of combustion without damaging the engine.
OK , don't believe me , how about these two guys ?
Dusty is correct.....This excellent article explains detonation and preignition . Read it, there will be a test :cool: :grin:
http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue54
/EngineBasics.html (http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue54/EngineBasics.html)
And this is by Kevin Cameron.
http://www.factorypipe.com/t_deto.php (http://www.factorypipe.com/t_deto.php)
You aren't slowing the rate of flame propagation , only starting the process later . If you slow down the rate of propagation you will run into detonation issues and complete combustion will not occur until after the moment of location of peak pressure , 14 degrees after TDC . This causes more heat and also decreased power .
Dusty
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That's right. 87 octane ignites too easily-it explodes quickly in high compression engines. PING! So we increase octane to slow the rate of burn or the volitility so it doesn't explode. And it burns more completely allowing the engine to extract more power available.
Gasoline has the same amount of energy no matter the octane. Higer compression alows more power while controlling the rate of combustion without damaging the engine.
Read this paragraph by Kevin Cameron , faster combustion lessens detonation!
Anything that contributes to lowering the temperature that the endgas reaches will make detonation less likely. Anything that slows the process of conversion from normal gasoline into a sensitive explosive, will make detonation less likely. Anything that speeds up combustion, so that is it completed before the conditions needed for detonation can develop fully, will make deto less likely.
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While not motorcycle specific, here's an informative article where a wide range of fuels are tested in the same vehicle under controlled conditions: https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/fuel-truth/
Bottom line, the power output from various pump fuels varies surprisingly little, IF the engine is tuned for that fuel. (We're talking naturally aspirated, moderate compression engines here, like most Guzzis. The results would likely vary much more if forced induction or ultra-high compression were a factor.)
Many modern cars have the ability to sense what is in the tank, and adjust the ignition timing curve and fuel injector pulses to suit. No Guzzis have such capabilities, to the best of my knowledge, so if you find a fuel that works well with your bike's particular tuning, its probably wise to stick with it. Unless the weather turns significantly hotter or colder. Or you're riding at a different altitude....
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More facts cluttering up the place :laugh: I am curious about the "relatively" low compression of the Miata .
Dusty
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when I had a a little red Miata it ran like a scalded ape on 87 Octane, it loved the stuff. Compression ratio was under 10 if I remember correctly. The only problem with the car was my 6 foot 300 pound size. I didn't get in to that car, I put it on.
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I run an 84 Cal II, and an 81 GS850 Suzuki. I can run anything in either one and see no noticeable difference in power or mileage. Sometimes I can't help but wonder what kind of junk the refineries push on you guys outside the Midwest. My old GS1100 Suzuki would ping on regular, but not on ethanol, in hot weather. The fuel mileage computers on our cars show little discernible difference between ethanol and regular fuels, maybe 1/10th of a mile per gallon. I think that may be because the cars now have computer controlled timing, and the timing is automatically retarded some when preignition is detected. Ethanol pings less, so the timing runs more advanced.