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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Chuck in Indiana on April 08, 2016, 10:08:09 AM
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The new to me Monza came with new tires. Not only new as in unworn.. but new as in 14 and 15 dates.
The problem is.. Guzzi calls for 90-90/18 Front, and 100-90/18 rear.
These are 100-90 front and 110-90 rear.
There is plenty of swing arm clearance.
I can see why the seller did it.. these sizes are much easier to find than what Guzzi calls for.
Will these tires adversely affect handling?
TIA
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Yep , it will be horrid , like a pig on roller skates :shocked:
Seriously , I doubt if it makes any difference but slightly slowing down the steering .
Dusty
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At the risk of being stoned by the faithful, I venture and say no. Providing adequate clearance for swingarm, fenders etc, all should be good. Back in my Kawasaki Triple days we always upsized to Dunlop K81's in 410 from 325 and 350. Bikes handling and ride improved remarkably. Your speedometer will be a little on the shy side but you should easily find a conversion chart on line so you can determine how much faster you are going than indicated speed or use a GPS to get the correction factor.
Cheers, Tim
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I don't think there will be a problem.
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Dang! These are Dunlop 404s, what I consider to be a "mileage" tire. I'd rather have a "handling" tire, but I won't change them if these are ok.
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Dang! These are Dunlop 404s, what I consider to be a "mileage" tire. I'd rather have a "handling" tire, but I won't change them if these are ok.
No worries Chuckie , those 404s aren't mileage or handling tires and will be worn out in a couple of thousand miles :rolleyes:
Dusty
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I've always found that that kind of difference is noticeable. If it's handling you want, and considering that life is short, ....
Moto
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Dang! These are Dunlop 404s, what I consider to be a "mileage" tire. I'd rather have a "handling" tire, but I won't change them if these are ok.
I just experienced the same dilemma with my Kawasaki NInja 250. It came with a nearly new Shinko on the rear and Kenda on the front. I was planning to wear them out and then go to more performance oriented tires. During a couple recent rides, I was practicing hard stops, and locked the front wheel too easily. In fact, when I gradually applied the front brake to get the tire loaded, I expected that bike to do a "stoppie" before the wheel locked, but it didn't. Since my daughter will be riding the bike a lot of the time, I gave up and bought a pair of Bridgestone BT45s. Even one minor crash on the old tires would have me wishing I had put better tires on it.
If anyone wants a Kenda Cruiser S/T 100/90-16 (maybe 1/2 worn) and a Shinko 10 SR712R 130/90-16 (about 25% worn), you can have them for the shipping cost.
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I think your spot on Chuck about availability..more of a cruiser and custom tire built for mileage. Not worth the risk for spirited riding in my opinion.
Congrats on the new to you Monza... :popcorn:
Paul :boozing:
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I think your spot on Chuck about availability..more of a cruiser and custom tire built for mileage. Not worth the risk for spirited riding in my opinion.
Congrats on the new to you Monza... :popcorn:
Paul :boozing:
Yep.
I'm pretty sure Dunlop 404 is used by HD as OEM fitment, or was used by them. For years.
I've always seen it as a cruiser/touring tire.
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They went up proportionally, so I'd say it's probably fine. I did the same on my G5 - bumped up to 110/90-18 front and 120/90-18 on the rear (vs 100/90-18 and 110/90-18 factory) and it hasn't been a problem at all. It will be even less of a problem on yours I'm thinking because if the rims are 2.15 then those will accept the 110 perfectly.
But again, tires sizes vary from manufacturer to manufacturer - they shouldn't, but they do and sometimes its quite a bit. I used Pirelli Sport Demons on mine.
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My V50 had the same wheels and tire sizes. Went with a 100/90-18 front when it was time to replace do to a bigger selection of cost effective tires. It was a mistake. A bike that once handled very well now lumbered into turns. If I would have kept the V50 I would replace the tire witht eh proper size. Fo rthe record I have done similar tire upsizing on other bikes and the effect was not so drastic or even noticable,
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My V50 had the same wheels and tire sizes. Went with a 100/90-18 front when it was time to replace do to a bigger selection of cost effective tires. It was a mistake. A bike that once handled very well now lumbered into turns. If I would have kept the V50 I would replace the tire witht eh proper size. Fo rthe record I have done similar tire upsizing on other bikes and the effect was not so drastic or even noticable,
Good info, thanks.
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Pirelli supercorsas, as sticky as it gets.
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When I substituted a 100/90 18 for a 90/90 18 on the front of my BMW R80 the handling suffered dramatically. There was a pronounced wobble in the turns.
A 120/ on the back of my T140 also degraded the handling
I don't know what it will do to your bike but its not something I'll do again
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If they are round and black, and nothing drags they should be good to go. If they had no markings but you were told they were race tires; would you know the difference?? Most would not!!!!!!
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If anyone wants a Kenda Cruiser S/T 100/90-16 (maybe 1/2 worn) and a Shinko 10 SR712R 130/90-16 (about 25% worn), you can have them for the shipping cost.
Don't know about the Kenda but the Shinko 712 on my bike is better than the BT45's. If you want stickier then Sport Demons.
I have thought about going a bit different size in the front on the T5, from a 110/90-16 to 120/80-16, just to have a different choice in tires. It might also slow the steering down a bit, which would be a good thing. Wider rear is difficult. Current 130/90-16 is fairly easy to get. Most brands in that size rub on the swingarm just a little.
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I didn't think there would be a problem when I went up one size on the front Stelvio. Close fit but thought it would work. Ended up ripping off my front fender. Make sure there is plenty of clearance
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There isn't a lot of choice in the standard sizes. Avons are about it, and are fine if a bit squirmy in deep rain grooves. Still better than Metzler Laser/Lazertech, though.
I was advised to put a 110 on the rear of the Monza when I first got it. Old, now discontinued Avon. It went on ok and the handling was fine but when I needed to take the rear wheel off I had to remove the rear drive as there wasn't enough clearance between the tire and the fender and cush drive assembly even with the tire completely deflated. Standard sizes now.
cr
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Don't know about the Kenda but the Shinko 712 on my bike is better than the BT45's. If you want stickier then Sport Demons.
This Shinko isn't better than a BT45, but maybe that's because it's old. I'm going to stay away from Sport Demons, because the front one on my Mille is out of round enough to feel at about 35 mph, wobbling left to right visibly. I would have returned it, but decided to put up with it until it's worn out and go to something different.
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Avon Roadriders are what was on my V50 and what I'd put on again if I'd have kept the bike. Running a Roadrider on the rear of the DR650 and like it equally as well. For what its worth.
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Avon Roadriders are what was on my V50 and what I'd put on again if I'd have kept the bike. Running a Roadrider on the rear of the DR650 and like it equally as well. For what its worth.
Those are what I'm moving to for the Mille. They have really amazed me on the DT100.
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I have Avon roadriders on my BMW R80, Triumph T140, Triumph Thruxton and soon on a BSA A65
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I have Avon roadriders on my BMW R80, Triumph T140, Triumph Thruxton and soon on a BSA A65
How would you describe their handling and braking?
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Very limited experience but I've found the profile affects handling more than tire size. Had three different profiles on the Quota (went from Good to meh, to really good, as the profile went from oval, to kinda flat to well rounded).
My CB1100 is much happier in the twisty bits than the Griso, narrower and more rounded tire on the CB compared to the Griso - so I'm playing with size and profiles there - on bikes that weigh about the same.
I'd ride it for a bit if only to give you a base line on how that tire works for your bike.
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Glad to see people really liking the roadriders. They are the only ones that I've found in the exact sizes.
Kirby is off flying again, but sent me a PM saying to check out the Conti Classic attacks. He loves them on his CX, and they have a 90-90/18. Pricey.. but as Moto said, life is short. :smiley:
I had a set of the early trail attacks on Darth Quota, and they were *wonderful* in the twistys.
I'm still at least a couple of weeks away from being cleared to ride, much less installing new tires.. :shocked: but I think I have a pretty good feel for what I want to do. I'm chomping at the bit. :smiley:
Thanks, all!
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I like the Avons. They roll into a turn smoothly and the "handling" is "light". I have no empirical evidence on braking performance but it seems good to me..in my opinion they perform better than the laser techs on the Thruxton and better than the Conti TK s on the BMW. I almost put them on the Tiger but went with Distanzias for the look
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Hey Chuck, how are things going?
By all means, if you want to know how you like the D404s on the bike, go ride it. I do know Sean Fader thinks the D404s suck, too hard-good enough for me.
Stock rims for your V50 are 185 front, 215 rear. By comparison my T3 and other Tonti big blocks of that era have 215 front and rear, and specify 100/90 front, 110 rear. If you check the tire manufacturer specs, they say no smaller that a 215 rim for either 100 or 110, no smaller than 250 for a 120 tire. Didn't see anything on 90 tires, cause most don't make them. That said, I have used 120's on the back of my T3 at times, which other than forcing me to reroute the wiring to the tail light which otherwise got taken out, were ok. Still, I have gone back to the stock 100 front and 110 rear as they seem to handle a bit better. In theory if you use a tire size too big for the rim, that tends to bow out the tire which tends to make the center wear out quicker than it should. I now use Bridgestone Spitfires on my T3 and get 5-6k front and rear, on a bike significantly heavier and more powerful than a v50. And you know how I ride. I had used Roadriders in the past. No beef with their handling. For some reason got over 10k on the front, but down to the cord at 3500 miles on the rear. Go figure. Maybe I should go Roadrider front, Spitfire rear, try that. Have never had any problem mixing tire brands of the same tire type front and rear.
Another tire choice I tried on my old V65SP (same rims as your V50) were Pirelli Sport Demons, available in 100 front and 110 rear. In my experience there is no better handling bias ply tire-but they were toast in 2500 miles on the V65. Nowhere near enough for me, esp if you go any meaningful distance from home-which may not matter for you on the V50. Just bear in mind that if you miscalculate and need a 18" tire far from home, that can be a real problem.
I guess if I were you I would try the Avons since you can get the "proper" size, but if not happy for any reason, go with the Spitfire 100/110 combo, I suspect that would work fine. The handling on those small blocks is so quick I would think going slightly up might be ok.
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Hi, Bob.. thanks for the thoughtful and experienced reply from my favorite riding buddy (next to the Kid). :smiley:
You probably don't know, but I went on a weight reduction program, and had a guy take out my kidney and prostate a month or so ago. Lost five pounds. :wink: Still not cleared to ride, so I can't try out those 404s. Need I say I'm really looking forward to that? :smiley:
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Sorry but every time I read "404 in the thread I think...
404, traction not found.
;)
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Sorry but every time I read "404 in the thread I think...
404, traction not found.
;)
:grin: :grin: Good'un, Joe..
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Chuck, my gut feeling is that the "feel' of the bike will be more affected by the front tire than the rear. Guzzi related = cheap. If it feels lousy would do the front before the rear. If it still feels lousy, then do the rear as well.
As a ps, I see BT45's mentioned. I rode a Breva fitted with BT45's as a loaner bike while mine was it for it's 1000km warranty check. It really felt sh*t. I really did not know where the front end was. The Sport Demons are in a different league.
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As a ps, I see BT45's mentioned. I rode a Breva fitted with BT45's as a loaner bike while mine was it for it's 1000km warranty check. It really felt sh*t. I really did not know where the front end was. The Sport Demons are in a different league.
As someone recently posted somewhere (I thought here, but can't find the post) the motorcycle the tires are installed on can make a huge difference in the performance of a particular tire brand/model. I know guys who do club races on BT45s and swear by them. But based on your post, it sounds like they're not well suited to use on that Breva. Or was it possible the steering bearings were not in good shape or not adjusted properly on the loaner bike? That can make a front end feel worse than vague in a hurry.
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It was back in 2004 and the Breva was still very new Jim. Was it low pressure in the front tire? Don't know, but it was also their test bike so you would have thought that they would have had it set up reasonably well. <shrug>
Just know that their one and my one were like cheese and chalk. Mine is of course in the fast red colour and the loaner was silver. :evil:
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It was back in 2004 and the Breva was still very new Jim. Was it low pressure in the front tire? Don't know, but it was also their test bike so you would have thought that they would have had it set up reasonably well. <shrug>
Just know that their one and my one were like cheese and chalk. Mine is of course in the fast red colour and the loaner was silver. :evil:
Well, it's pretty obvious that red makes the difference. <shrug> That said, red combined with Sport Demons is an unbeatable combination..
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Mine is of course in the fast red colour and the loaner was silver. :evil:
There you go... you found the reason. :laugh:
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Bridgestone BT45 update: I rode a few miles on the Ninja 250 and got most of the mold release off the new tires. A couple very hard front brake stops caused "stoppies", so there's a substantial improvement to the front tire traction over the old Kenda. The steering is light, positive, and completely neutral. Of course how they feel on this bike doesn't necessarily tell how they would feel on a different one, but I'll definitely feel better about letting my daughter ride this 250 now.
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I'm running Avon RoadRiders stock size 90 front, 100 rear on the Monza now and happy with it. The rear wheel is much easier to install than the 110 was. A friend swears that Roadriders stick as well in the wet as in the dry - Brits have plenty of experience with riding in the rain. I have them on all 4 of my bikes and they seem to handle fine at my extremes. :wink:
On thing that makes sense to me is that if you put a wide tire casing on the same size rim the tire will be squeezed at the bead changing the cross section of the tire - pushing the sidewalls in and pushing the tread center out and changing the curvature of contact patch when cornering. I didn't notice the change from 100 to 90 x-section tires in the front, but I wonder if it would change the amount of feel near the limits - perhaps feeling more skittish at high lean angles?
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On thing that makes sense to me is that if you put a wide tire casing on the same size rim the tire will be squeezed at the bead changing the cross section of the tire - pushing the sidewalls in and pushing the tread center out and changing the curvature of contact patch when cornering. I didn't notice the change from 100 to 90 x-section tires in the front, but I wonder if it would change the amount of feel near the limits - perhaps feeling more skittish at high lean angles?
Because of the squeezing effect you described, I found that putting a 130/80 tire on the rear of my Mille (120/90 stock) resulted in almost identical clearance to the swing arm, slightly smaller circumference (speedo read a little high) and nothing else noticeable. I have Avon Roadriders on my Yamaha DT100 sorta-road-racer and love them. The front is a 90/90-18, which is way squeezed on its 1.40" rim. The only oddity is that I don't get road contact on the tread edges. It still handles great and sticks like glue. My favorite photo evidence:
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c327/triplejim/motorcycles/DT100/VIR%20Go%20Kart%20Track/three_turning_zpst97s141k.jpg)
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Aaaarg! Now you tell me. :smiley: I was debating the two tires, Roadriders, and Conti Classic Attacks. The Attacks are *really* pricey and hard to come by. The Kid called last night and said, "I still think you should just wear out those 404's, but I can get you a killer deal on the Attacks."
"Just do it. Life is short.." :smiley:
Anybody want some 404s.. cheep? (Guzzi content)
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It's good we'll get a review of the Conti Classic Attacks in the deal. I'll look forward to that.
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It's good we'll get a review of the Conti Classic Attacks in the deal. I'll look forward to that.
It'll be a while. I'm guessing it will be into May before I'm cleared to ride. I *will* say the trail Attacks I had on Darth Quota were killer.
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I need tires for a 1965 BSA.
18" both ends.
I'll probably use Avon Roadriders. They are tubeless tyres.
An internet source advises not to use"tubeless" tyres on "tube" wheels as the rim shape differs from that on a tubeless wheel.
I have the Avon tires on two other "tubes" bikes without problems.
Is this new concern valid?
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Not according to the tire manufacturers I've checked with. It's hard to find motorcycle tires made specifically for use with tubes. I also have Roadriders on two of my tube-equipped motorcycles, and have for years.
From the Dunlop site:
"TUBE-TYPE RIMS
Only mount tyres as tubeless when recommended by the wheel manufacturer. Some spokeless rims require tubes. With a tube inserted, a tubeless tyre may be fitted to a tube-type wheel."
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It's my underdtanding that the bead walls are profiled differently and the rim walls between tubed and tubeless. Hence one should not be used on the other type rim.
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Michelin specifies which of their tubeless tires are OK with tubes and which are not:
Tubeless Tires and Tubes: Warnings
1. MICHELIN PROHIBITS THE USE OF INNER TUBES IN:
� MICHELIN� Power SuperSport� radial performance tires
� MICHELIN� Pilot� Power, Pilot� Power 2CT and Pilot� Power 3 performance street radial tires
� MICHELIN� Pilot� Road 3 and Pilot� Road 2 sport touring street radial tires
� MICHELIN� Scorcher� �11� and Commander� II radial cruiser tires
WHEN MOUNTED ON TUBE‑TYPE RIMS, INNER TUBES MAY BE USED IN:
� MICHELIN� Pilot� Activ street/sport tires
� MICHELIN� Commander� II, Scorcher� �31� and Scorcher� �32� cruiser/custom tires
� MICHELIN� Anakee� III dual-purpose tires
Obviously the thing to do is check with the manufacturer of the tubeless tire you're thinking of using on a tube type rim.
Avon says tubes are OK with their tubeless tires:
Using Tubes with Avon Tubeless Tires (http://www.avonmotorsport.com/resource-centre/tube-fitment)
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t but they are as good as the sport demon (or better?) in dry traction.
That's what sold me. This Monza is after all, a toy. :smiley: The only problem I see is the rear is one size too wide, but it has that size on it now, and there is plenty of swing arm clearance. Whether that will change the profile enough to adversely affect handling (and if I am good enough to tell) remains to be seen.
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I believe 110mm is the maximum allowed on a 2.15" rim (the rear on the Monza from what I understand) that will still retain the correct profile once mounted. If it were a 120, then you'd get the distortion possibly affecting handling.
From what I remember, I think Avons run a little wider than other manufactures; An Avon 100 may be as wide as a Sport Demon 110, but tire height will be proportional to the 90 profile, so the 110/90 Pirelli will still be taller than the 100/90 Avon.
I do have to say, my 120 does make taking the rear tire off a bit of a chore. It's just a tiny bit, but enough to make you mad. The bike needs lifted higher and then it clears.
Some past research here:
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=73995.msg1156826#msg1156826
I did end up finding Pirelli information at Dennis Kirk's website
https://www.denniskirk.com/search/pirelli+sport+demon.q
In reality, it's a crapshoot :rolleyes:
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I apologize if someone has covered this before now, but to me it's physics.
If you decide to choose a wider tire than what the rim is spec'd at, choose
a lower profile tire than the original tire had so when it is pinched more between
the beads than the original it will then crown more toward the original profile
narrower tire that the rim was originally specified for after it is fitted. In my
frame of thinking, the bike would steer similar, but it would have more surface
area for grip. The pitfall would be more weight and more up sprung weight. I do
know that the original sizes did dig just fine the way they were though as when
I bought my Monza it still had the original Pirelli Phantoms on it. How can a tire
9 years old still perform almost like new? Who knows. Like what happened to
the Metzler tires? You can talk brands, but to me it's the shape it's at after it's
been mounted. I'd say get the manufacturers out of your head and think more
about your profile choices. If you can do both, that'd be great. And yes, the
more gummy bears, the betta!! Just add $$$