Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: lucydad on April 09, 2016, 05:20:16 PM
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All,
Ok, so last two coffee breaks at my favorite cuppa India Joe place on the V7R have resulted in very hard start after a fast run. Bike sitting directly in late afternoon Sugar Land, TEXAS sun. Black tank. A real struggle, but always manage to start after a minute chugging, then catch, then rough idle. Frustrating, as I often take these kind of breaks before coming home.
Before today's ride I checked the evap canister lines and such, everything tight, one was a bit pinched, so I routed it a bit different, and at the pinch flexed it with a pair of pliers.
Cold start was immediate and typical, warm a bit at 3000 rpm, idle settles, ready to go. Fueled up about 4 miles from house going SE outbound. Bike warm, not hot: again started right up to smooth typical idle.
Today I had a nice run, temp 78-80F, broken clouds, about 80 fast miles. Had a BMW RnineT pass me near Brazos Bend park. He eyed me as I made the left turn north, saw him in my mirrors and he blasted past. I was accelerating pretty hard. Bigger bike, no surprise, but I managed to pace him thru the sweeper curves and such.
Got home, exhilarating ride, just beautiful out, a bit windy. Corn is up, soybeans planted, hay perking and even a first cut. So, parked bike in my shaded, open garage. Gear off, drank water, pollen triage, and swept floor. About 15 minutes, similar to my coffee brakes. Experiment: what does Little Goose do upon a hot start, but not sitting in blazing direct sun?
She fires up immediately, and smooth, that is what.
Hmm. We will ride to church tomorrow. Service is about 90 minutes. My usual parking space has sun, but it is morning and not afternoon. I will see what the bike does on warm start. Tomorrow afternoon I may ride to the cuppa joint, but this time wet a soft cloth, and put it over the tank, bike in sun (there are no shade spots), and see what the bike does. Will a bit of black tank cooling help?
Anyway the bike is running just superb otherwise. Prefer not to take it into Mike at MPH if the problem is correlated with afternoon hot sun exposure on the tank, when bike is hot.
Guy on the BMW was lucky I was not on the Triumph. He would not have passed so easily....no news on Triumph: no returning emails, or a phone message to repair department. Not really impressed with service.
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before you start it in the hot sun, crack the fuel cap and listen for a swoosh.. venting might not be great with a hot tank of gas expanding. ?
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Hot tank sitting in the sun = hot gas fumes going through the vent line & overflow line down to the canister. If you've ever overfilled the tank to where gas runs down either of those lines into the charcoal in the canister, it could be partially clogged and the fumes from hot gas are exacerbating the already partially clogged canister. The evap canisters on motorcycles/scooters are highly likely to cause these kinds of problems if you park the bike in hot sun. If you disconnect the overflow & vent lines from the canister and run them down past the frame, chances are that your problem will go away.
BTW; I had this happen on a Vespa scooter that my wife used to own. It was very easy to overfill. It also happened to me on a BMW that I used to own. I removed the canister on both and ran the lines towards the ground and the problem was solved. Since then, I've removed the evap canister on every bike that I've owned; No more problems of this type and no pressure buildup in the tank due to poor venting.
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ALSO,
These evap canister systems do NOT exist on the identical bikes that are sold in Europe (& many other markets). The come from the factory with NO canister. I used to be on a forum with a lot of people from England and they NEVER have these types of problems because they don't have the canister.
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before you start it in the hot sun, crack the fuel cap and listen for a swoosh.. venting might not be great with a hot tank of gas expanding. ?
THIS! I crack the cap every time it sits in the sun. Pull keys from pocket, crack the gas cap (whooosh) put in the ignition. And my tank is not black. Guzzis create some weird rituals.
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Hot tank sitting in the sun = hot gas fumes going through the vent line & overflow line down to the canister. If you've ever overfilled the tank to where gas runs down either of those lines into the charcoal in the canister, it could be partially clogged and the fumes from hot gas are exacerbating the already partially clogged canister. The evap canisters on motorcycles/scooters are highly likely to cause these kinds of problems if you park the bike in hot sun. If you disconnect the overflow & vent lines from the canister and run them down past the frame, chances are that your problem will go away.
BTW; I had this happen on a Vespa scooter that my wife used to own. It was very easy to overfill. It also happened to me on a BMW that I used to own. I removed the canister on both and ran the lines towards the ground and the problem was solved. Since then, I've removed the evap canister on every bike that I've owned; No more problems of this type and no pressure buildup in the tank due to poor venting.
:1: first thing to go on any bike of mine with a charcoal can. Also will minimize the chance of deforming a plastic tank due to thermal expansion. Once they have been flooded with fuel they cease to function anyway.
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All 3 of my Guzzis have done that exact same thing until I took off the canister. Gas build up and it goes to the intake and confuses the sensors until cleared. Takes a about a minute of running to straighten out. Only happens when left in hot sun and didn't matter how much gas was in tank.
This is what I experienced with a V7 and two CARC bikes. Others here know better and will say I'm full of s&$t, but removing the canister or just take the canister hoses off the intakes and plug everything off is what I know caused my problem to go away.
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Darren, all:
More experimental data from today: easy cold start up, nice run into Houston for church, bike sat 90 minutes, easy start up, with buddy Ed on his Diavel for breakfast, bike in moderate sun for hour, easy start up, and home. Perfectly behaving V7R.
I think the start issue is only: a) bike really hot engine, b) really intense direct semi-tropical sun on black metal tank, c) less than 30 minutes sitting.
Ok: so, if I unclip the canister hoses (easy), will the issue go away? If unclipped, should I plug the hoses, or leave open? Advice please from experienced.
Windy run today, but huge fun in not too hot heat/humidity. That arrives in about 3 weeks.
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A "canister-ectomy" is probably in order, eventually.
I am not sure about all that is involved, but I do plan to treat my Norge to a full "canister-ectomy" at its next service. I will let my dealer and his people handle it. I think I will treat our Vespas to the same at their next service appointments.
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Only need to plug line to air box, or any line subject to intake vacuum.
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A "canister-ectomy" is probably in order, eventually.
I am not sure about all that is involved, but I do plan to treat my Norge to a full "canister-ectomy" at its next service. I will let my dealer and his people handle it. I think I will treat our Vespas to the same at their next service appointments.
Since removing the charcoal canister is (in effect) tampering with the emission control system, many if not most dealers will decline to do it. It's not particularly difficult, but if they do it they are at risk of violating state and federal statute. This comment is not to say the deed should not be done (somehow the one on my Norge is missing) but you may need to do it yourself.
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All,
Ok, so last two coffee breaks at my favorite cuppa India Joe place on the V7R have resulted in very hard start after a fast run. Bike sitting directly in late afternoon Sugar Land, TEXAS sun. Black tank. A real struggle, but always manage to start after a minute chugging, then catch, then rough idle. Frustrating, as I often take these kind of breaks before coming home.
Before today's ride I checked the evap canister lines and such, everything tight, one was a bit pinched, so I routed it a bit different, and at the pinch flexed it with a pair of pliers.
Cold start was immediate and typical, warm a bit at 3000 rpm, idle settles, ready to go. Fueled up about 4 miles from house going SE outbound. Bike warm, not hot: again started right up to smooth typical idle.
Today I had a nice run, temp 78-80F, broken clouds, about 80 fast miles. Had a BMW RnineT pass me near Brazos Bend park. He eyed me as I made the left turn north, saw him in my mirrors and he blasted past. I was accelerating pretty hard. Bigger bike, no surprise, but I managed to pace him thru the sweeper curves and such.
Got home, exhilarating ride, just beautiful out, a bit windy. Corn is up, soybeans planted, hay perking and even a first cut. So, parked bike in my shaded, open garage. Gear off, drank water, pollen triage, and swept floor. About 15 minutes, similar to my coffee brakes. Experiment: what does Little Goose do upon a hot start, but not sitting in blazing direct sun?
She fires up immediately, and smooth, that is what.
Hmm. We will ride to church tomorrow. Service is about 90 minutes. My usual parking space has sun, but it is morning and not afternoon. I will see what the bike does on warm start. Tomorrow afternoon I may ride to the cuppa joint, but this time wet a soft cloth, and put it over the tank, bike in sun (there are no shade spots), and see what the bike does. Will a bit of black tank cooling help?
Anyway the bike is running just superb otherwise. Prefer not to take it into Mike at MPH if the problem is correlated with afternoon hot sun exposure on the tank, when bike is hot.
Guy on the BMW was lucky I was not on the Triumph. He would not have passed so easily....no news on Triumph: no returning emails, or a phone message to repair department. Not really impressed with service.
Sounds like typical fuel vaporization in the fuel lines. Is it worse or better with a full tank of fuel?
Ciao
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Greg, try this as it is easy to test and reverse if you so choose. The cannister system has two hoses that go to the intake side of the throttle bodies. These are the ports to balance them. Just pull those two hoses off, get some rubber caps at an auto parts store to plug the ports and plug the hoses with a screw or something. I personally just cut the hose about an inch out from the port and put plastic dowels in the now four open hose ends. This was done on my Stelio, but the 1200 Sport and Breva 750 I did the full canisterectomy. That solved my issues which were bikes left in hot sun all day at work and then they would do what you described yours was doing.
Good luck.
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I have a Breva 750 with Black Tank and have the same problem after the bike sits in the sun. Doesn't matter how hot the engine is. It is directly related to how hot the sun is and how long the bike has been in the sun. Had a similar problem with a Ducati Multistrada after fueling (hard starting, bucking, stalling, rough idle) Removal of the canister solved the problem completely. Dealer wouldn't do it for me but he told me what to do. Just as explained in a prior comment, plug the intake lines to the FI. Leave the others open as they are vents. Guess my BB is also in for a cannisterectomy!!!
Cheers, Tim
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Since removing the charcoal canister is (in effect) tampering with the emission control system, many if not most dealers will decline to do it. It's not particularly difficult, but if they do it they are at risk of violating state and federal statute. This comment is not to say the deed should not be done (somehow the one on my Norge is missing) but you may need to do it yourself.
If I'm not mistaken, the charcoal canister is still a California (CARB, not EPA) thing that brings the bikes from 49-State to 50-State approval.
Guzzi (and other Euro brands) only import 50-State California legal machines into The USA because if the low volume and easier logistics of doing so.
places, a motorcycle without carbon canister is not in violation of emissions regulations.
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Same problem here with the starting issue, only mine will do it even when cold if it's been sitting in the sun (red breva 1100). It rarely causes me any issue so I haven't bothered with the canisterectomy, just as I haven't bothered with the startus interruptus fix.
Remove the canister and forget about it. As for the vent from the tank, it'll just have to go to atmosphere. My bike kinda smells like fuel even with the canister when I sit on it in hot sun, so it won't make that much difference :)
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My bike kinda smells like fuel even with the canister when I sit on it in hot sun, so it won't make that much difference :)
I'll bet your canisters are full of gas..once the charcoal is flooded with gas it doesn't work like it should.