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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rough Edge racing on April 14, 2016, 03:40:56 PM
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Have you ever been riding at let's say 60-70 MPH when a situation suddenly comes up demanding maximum braking to a near dead stop? I've practiced on deserted roads trying to stop as fast as possible but it's not the same as an emergency ...To be honest I think the only time I had to do it in real life was on my 67 Triumph 650 many years ago..The drum front brake wouldn't lock up at 60 mph but it didn't stop all that quick either...
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Have you ever been riding at let's say 60-70 MPH when a situation suddenly comes up demanding maximum braking to a near dead stop? I've practiced on deserted roads trying to stop as fast as possible but it's not the same as an emergency ...To be honest I think the only time I had to do it in real life was on my 67 Triumph 650 many years ago..The drum front brake wouldn't lock up at 60 mph but it didn't stop all that quick either...
Twice.
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Not having to make extreme stops is a sign of safe riding. It's hard to beat your records of having to make only one or two in decades of riding. The only one I can think of I had to make was around 1980, and wasn't successful in keeping me from rear ending a Toyota. Like RER, I occasionally practice, and now I get my daughter to practice too.
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Some years ago I was riding to work on a rural two lane highway, 70 or so mph. Typical speed in Montana. In a fallow field to my left I spotted a deer running and quickly realized I was it's target and that it had an angle of interception I couldn't avoid. Good old MSF maximum braking technique applied as I'd rather dismount at 45 and 70. If you squeeze progressively harder on the front brake at high speed it's pretty hard to lock it. Grab it you lock the wheel and learn not to do that again.
As the front end dived down and I squeezed the front brake lever aggressively the tire began to howl, which is a good indication of "threshold" braking. The howling caused the deer to turn at the last second, and we proceeded down the highway in a promenade position. Regaining a bit of composure I gave a blast of the Fiams sending the doe off for another dance partner.
I believe braking skills and cornering skills are some of the most important skills needed by riders. It's what I've been telling students for 25 years. Worth practicing, worth improving.
Bill N.
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I can't think of even one time from 60-70 mph, but it's been a fairly regular occurrence for me in the 30-40 mph range, on pavement and off.
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I recall cornering at that speed, 60 mph, only to be confronted by a Hereford smack in the middle of the road where it narrowed at a culvert. Hitting the brakes provoked a rear wheel slide but was dealt with by countersteering. That only kept me upright, however. I had not lost speed and the beast wast coming up fast. I aimed for the gap between beastie's rump and the edge of the culvert and grunted through in top gear. That damn thing did not so much as blink. I swear it.
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Did it a LOT when amateur road racing in the late `60s and practicing to do it then.
1 time in the `90's while riding 2up with a group of fellow Guzzisti and a solo rider right in front of us who wasn't used to this. He was the leader of our pack as we approached an intersection and the light changed to yellow as we are doing about 55 mph. He forgets we are right behind him and at the last moment decides to stop instead of go thru the intersection on yellow. He's on his `89 Mille and I'm on my `81 CX100(2up). I hit my linked brakes and the bike is stopping as fast as it can w/o the front end diving, and no tires skidding but it just can't stop fast enough with our extra weight. So as we get really close to rear ending his bike I move the front forks to the left a little and we stop just left of his bike half way up on his side. He never knew how close we came to rear ending him. I got a thumbs up from 1 of the other riders who saw what happened. :smiley:
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I completed a Law Enforcement motorcycle course in'82. They said most folks will overbrake the rear and underbrake the front in a full blown panic stop so I practice practice practice . Saved myself some embarrassment a couple times🏍,
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I practice hard stops a lot-but never had to really do one from 70 in real life.
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I seem to get a 'rehearsal' nearly every day and I drive like an old lady...cage drivers just not seeing bikes very well yet...tons of MC on the roads due to nice weather but also multiple bike vs. car accidents here so far...I'm riding with two fingers poised over front brake lever and right foot at the ready...
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I completed a Law Enforcement motorcycle course in'82. They said most folks will overbrake the rear and underbrake the front in a full blown panic stop so I practice practice practice . Saved myself some embarrassment a couple times🏍,
I was a M/C instructor for a police force for many years. Yes on a Harley you will tend to over brake the rear but on most metrics especially those sport oriented bikes with quality dual discs up front you WILL lock up the front first. Until you've had a car pull out in front of you and had to PANIC brake to avoid collision you have NOT experienced TRUE MAXIMUM BRAKING. Trust me, practicing on a quiet country road is not same. When a car pulls out in front of you in a life an death scenario, you are on the brakes FULL. Not much time to think about it, especially at 60 plus MPH. I've had 2 collisions where cars pulled out in front of me in 40 plus years of driving. The first one happened so fast I DON'T EVEN REMEMBER APPLYING THE BRAKES, never mind worrying about locking anything up. Approx. 2 years ago I had another collision where a van pulled out in front of me when I was doing about 40 miles an hour. I locked the front wheel (Ducati Multistrada with excellent front brakes and abysmal rear brake) but because the speed I had time to adjust pressure when I felt the front end washing out. Unfortunately I was rapidly running out of space and once I realized I was going to hit, full pressure to shave off as much speed as possible. It hurt but I got to walk away. Bike was on its way down when it hit. I really think ABS might have helped because it would have provided MAXIMUM braking right from the point of application. Takes the guess work out right from the getgo. Just my 2 cents worth.
Cheers, Tim
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I think most of us could use some practice at emergency braking. I think there are serious motorcycle accidents that could have been lessened or avoided if the rider had better braking technique.
And of course belie that old adage, "I had to lay her down."
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I was a M/C instructor for a police force for many years. Yes on a Harley you will tend to over brake the rear but on most metrics especially those sport oriented bikes with quality dual discs up front you WILL lock up the front first. Until you've had a car pull out in front of you and had to PANIC brake to avoid collision you have NOT experienced TRUE MAXIMUM BRAKING. Trust me, practicing on a quiet country road is not same. When a car pulls out in front of you in a life an death scenario, you are on the brakes FULL. Not much time to think about it, especially at 60 plus MPH.
Cheers, Tim
Yes...I agree, actual emergencies on are the spot decisions... But practicing on a country road is better than nothing and at least in a perfect situation it might be a lifesaver...never go to a gun fight with a knife...
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Many here don't like older Guzzi linked brakes but this is when they can save your bacon. I LIKE linked brakes for street riding. There's no way you can grab too much front brake with them. Plus the front end doesn't go into a steep dive like w/o it. Your whole bike just drops down pretty much evenly. :thumb: All my maxi-scooters come with linked brake systems too.
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I think this is right on the mark. Panic braking is NOT like threshold breaking or max braking on a race track. Most likely if the time is short and you just react from panic you will lock it up without doubt.
I never cared much for the ABS (anti lock) but I am beginning to believe that in a panic situation it could give you the edge.
Good post!
:-)
Actually, I don't think I've ever experienced 'panic' braking. To me that means you are not capable at that moment to deal with the situation you have. Having road raced, I've always come up with a solution or last resort of action in a sudden collision event, whether it be deflect the contact, stop in time, or lay the bike down before making contact. And don't tell me it's never a good option to LAY THE BIKE DOWN !!! :rolleyes: If you do you have not found yourself in some situations I have.
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I think this is right on the mark. Panic braking is NOT like threshold breaking or max braking on a race track. Most likely if the time is short and you just react from panic you will lock it up without doubt.
I never cared much for the ABS (anti lock) but I am beginning to believe that in a panic situation it could give you the edge.
Good post!
:-)
Gasp :shocked: You mean ABS isn't only for riders with limited skills as some here have suggested? In normal spirited riding I use the brakes fairly aggressively , but yes , there is a huge difference between threshold braking and a panic situation , which in 47 years I've only had happen once or maybe twice .
Dusty
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I was a M/C instructor for a police force for many years. Yes on a Harley you will tend to over brake the rear but on most metrics especially those sport oriented bikes with quality dual discs up front you WILL lock up the front first. Until you've had a car pull out in front of you and had to PANIC brake to avoid collision you have NOT experienced TRUE MAXIMUM BRAKING. Trust me, practicing on a quiet country road is not same. When a car pulls out in front of you in a life an death scenario, you are on the brakes FULL. Not much time to think about it, especially at 60 plus MPH. I've had 2 collisions where cars pulled out in front of me in 40 plus years of driving. The first one happened so fast I DON'T EVEN REMEMBER APPLYING THE BRAKES, never mind worrying about locking anything up. Approx. 2 years ago I had another collision where a van pulled out in front of me when I was doing about 40 miles an hour. I locked the front wheel (Ducati Multistrada with excellent front brakes and abysmal rear brake) but because the speed I had time to adjust pressure when I felt the front end washing out. Unfortunately I was rapidly running out of space and once I realized I was going to hit, full pressure to shave off as much speed as possible. It hurt but I got to walk away. Bike was on its way down when it hit. I really think ABS might have helped because it would have provided MAXIMUM braking right from the point of application. Takes the guess work out right from the getgo. Just my 2 cents worth.
Cheers, Tim
On the broader subject its another good reason to do regular track days, keeps you accustomed to threshold braking. I will differ with you on the point that modern sports bike will "lock" the front first. In a straight line with decent tires and no major road surface issues a "modern" sports bike will have you over the handle bars before it will lock the front wheel. So if you can keep the bike upright and straight in a threshold braking situation with these bikes you only have to worry about getting it stopped and directional control without the rear wheel on the ground. It wont skid/slide the front. Front end washouts on the brakes with these bikes is generally due to seriously heavy braking and consciously/unconsciously steering the bike via the bars simultaneously, as in at the last moment you figure you cant get it stopped and try to steer away from the danger while threshold braking.
Cruisers are a different matter due to their weight distribution and lack weight transfer to the front wheel under heavy braking. You need to rely on the rear brake a lot more with this design and the lack of weight transfer on the brakes will result in a locked and sliding front wheel even upright and in the dry.
Modern ABS is the way to go if its available on the bike. You still need to keep it upright and minimise the steering input for maximum effectivity though.
Ciao
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Just curious , exactly how does one "lay 'er down" while riding on pavement . Pretty sure my skills match most riders , and have thought about this quite a lot . Intentionally crashing means either locking up the tires to the point of crashing , or intentionally full locking the handlebars causing a high side :shocked: Or maybe the rider just jumped off . My best guess is in most cases the crash was unintentional .
Dusty
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Unfortunately we don't get to pick and chose when and where that car might pull out in front of you and you need to hit the binders. It could be on a curve in the road or while you are overtaking. There might be gravel or sand on the road. Could be water or even ice. Street tires are not as sticky as track tires and road asphalt not as grippy as track surfaces. In North America there are a lot of tar and gravel roads that can be very tricky as they offer limited adhesion. To say you would do a stoppy/endo if you over brake the front is a bit simplistic. To many variables come into play!!!
Cheers, Tim
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Just curious , exactly how does one "lay 'er down" while riding on pavement . Pretty sure my skills match most riders , and have thought about this quite a lot . Intentionally crashing means either locking up the tires to the point of crashing , or intentionally full locking the handlebars causing a high side :shocked: Or maybe the rider just jumped off . My best guess is in most cases the crash was unintentional .
Dusty
My personal experience both on the road and track is its unintentional. Heavy braking combined with the resignation that you wont be able to stop/correct and instinct causes you to steer away from the perceived danger. Heavy braking combined with serious steering input via the bars causes a low side.
My last crash like this on the track was due to my inattention exiting a corner and a really slow rider on the race line that caught me totally unaware. Accelerating and virtually upright, looked up and was on top of the slow bike, in surprise grabbed the front brake while trying to steer under him. Result low side and broken bones, etc.
Mind you Freddy Spenser tells of a deliberate law her down in a Superbike race in America before his international career when the front brakes failed. Dont recall the technique though.
Ciao
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Hey Phil your right but we are talking about PANIC breaking not skillful max braking like on a race track.
In a panic situation all bets are off and the survival mode kicks in.
Quite different.
mike
Even in a "panic" stop Mike on a sports bike and UPRIGHT your problem wont be a front wheel skid/slide but a trip over the bars. The washout only happens when you are in the panic stop and try naturally to steeraway from the danger at the same time.
Ciao
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Unfortunately we don't get to pick and chose when and where that car might pull out in front of you and you need to hit the binders. It could be on a curve in the road or while you are overtaking. There might be gravel or sand on the road. Could be water or even ice. Street tires are not as sticky as track tires and road asphalt not as grippy as track surfaces. In North America there are a lot of tar and gravel roads that can be very tricky as they offer limited adhesion. To say you would do a stoppy/endo if you over brake the front is a bit simplistic. To many variables come into play!!!
Cheers, Tim
Well I did add some caveats to road surface and if you want to see how much grip a modern ROAD tire will give you watch some world Super Sport racing. All using DOT legal tires you can buy from the shop and only around 3-4 seconds a lap slower than a full WSB on slicks with 600 or 675cc config dependent!
Ciao
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Did it a LOT when amateur road racing in the late `60s and practicing to do it then.
1 time in the `90 while riding 2up with a group fellow Guzzisti and a solo rider right in front of us who wasn't used to this. He was the leader of our pack as we approached an intersection and the light changed to yellow as we are doing about 55 mph. He forgets we are right behind him and at the last moment decides to stop instead of go thru the intersection on yellow. He's on his `89 Mille and I'm on my `81 CX100(2up). I hit my linked brakes and the bike is stopping as fast as it can w/o the front end diving, and no tires skidding but it just can't stop fast enough with our extra weight. So as we get really close to rear ending his bike I move the front forks to the left a little and we stop just left of his bike half way up on his side. He never knew how close we came to rear ending him. I got a thumbs up from 1 of the other riders who saw what happened. :smiley:
I'll just mention Wayne that although I can imagine being in that position and gave been, it's not an enviable one, but with due respect (and I do mean that honestly) is it really HIS job to remember that you're "close behind him" with maybe 50 or 60 extra kilo's on board, and also if he had time to stop before the light he hasn't really done much wrong ? Finally,if he was far enough back from the light to stop in time, what color do you think it would have been for the last guy in the group if the leader had kept going and you all followed him through. It's not a swipe Wayne, but is there a point to be seen?
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I'll just mention Wayne that although I can imagine being in that position and gave been, it's not an enviable one, but with due respect (and I do mean that honestly) is it really HIS job to remember that you're "close behind him" with maybe 50 or 60 extra kilo's on board, and also if he had time to stop before the light he hasn't really done much wrong ? Finally,if he was far enough back from the light to stop in time, what color do you think it would have been for the last guy in the group if the leader had kept going and you all followed him through. It's not a swipe Wayne, but is there a point to be seen?
As we approached the intersection he gassed it to go thru. Then at the last moment he changed his mind. Because we all knew if he went thru and we didn't then we would be separated we had somewhat bunched up to avoid this. He shouldn't have changed his mind at the last second to stop. Luckily no one collided, but it was close.
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I have had a number of bikes in the past with twin leading shoe drum brakes that were capable of locking up the front wheel, but then I also have a grip that could strangle a cow.
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Just curious , exactly how does one "lay 'er down" while riding on pavement . Pretty sure my skills match most riders , and have thought about this quite a lot . Intentionally crashing means either locking up the tires to the point of crashing , or intentionally full locking the handlebars causing a high side :shocked: Or maybe the rider just jumped off . My best guess is in most cases the crash was unintentional .
Dusty
I have had to "lay her down" on 2 occasions, 1 on dirt and 1 on pavement. In both incidences I would have been physically hurt much worse if I didn't.
On pavement the wife & I were riding our `80 Convert loaded with gear + pulling a Unigo trailer w/all our camping gear going about 35 mph on a 2 lane road. That bike has 4 crashbars, 2 for the jugs and 2 for the saddlebags. A guy in a full size PU is looking for a place to pull off the road and park. He pulls left right in front of us and if we don't stop I am going to plow right into his right front wheel/fender. I know with all the weight we have I am not going to be able to stop soon enough to miss his truck and have been warned since I've had a head injury my brain can't take any more impacts or I'll probably die doing it. So I twist the front handlebars forcing the bike to go down on the left side in the middle of the street. I lay frontally with my FF helmet protecting my head but I'm unconscious. I come to in the ambulance and live to ride another day. That was in 2001. If I had hit that truck I'm sure I would not be here alive today.
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I have had a number of bikes in the past with twin leading shoe drum brakes that were capable of locking up the front wheel, but then I also have a grip that could strangle a cow.
Since I started bike riding/racing with drum braked MCs, far as I'm concerned some of the really fast new bikes front brakes are too sensitive for me to control. I still use all my fingers on my front brake levers. Can't imagine using only 2 fingers and be comfortable with that. :huh:
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I think this is right on the mark. Panic braking is NOT like threshold breaking or max braking on a race track. Most likely if the time is short and you just react from panic you will lock it up without doubt.
I never cared much for the ABS (anti lock) but I am beginning to believe that in a panic situation it could give you the edge.
Good post!
:-)
Since the OP used the term 'panic', the hope is that the bike has ABS. Controlled emergency braking MIGHT be faster without ABS but once panic is involved, squeeeeeezing hard is going to happen. Without ABS a bad outcome seems more likely.
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I'm one of those unskilled riders who think they need ABS, and I'm glad I have it. In fact, I sold my perfectly fine and enjoyable '13 Stone and got an equally fine and enjoyable '16 Stone primarily for the ABS. It's already probably saved my bacon at least once, thereby paying for itself. Motorcycling is already dangerous enough without the added danger of locking up the brakes in a panic situation. I'll leave it to the more skillful riders to manage their panic stopping better than I can.
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Last fall, passed a slow truck in my CB1100 and goosed it eager to get home. Was up to about 70-75 when a damn deer shot out from the woods from my right to left. It was so close I could smell his ass. Locked up the rear but not the front. Kept her upright and kept rolling. That would not have been pretty if I reacted a half second slower.
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Since I started bike riding/racing with drum braked MCs, far as I'm concerned some of the really fast new bikes front brakes are too sensitive for me to control. I still use all my fingers on my front brake levers. Can't imagine using only 2 fingers and be comfortable with that. :huh:
Two finger braking is great, allows finer modulation of the lever and enables better throttle control on down shifts and less chance of the massive overbraking in a panic situation. You obviously need modern brakes but that's how I ride the V11 and all the other bikes I have for that matter. Its like riding with the ball of your foot on the pegs instead of your instep or going back to non boosted brakes in a car. Once you get accustomed to it and its advantages you wouldn't do it any other way.
My Ducati 1198s has very aggressive front brakes and riding it with full finger braking would be a little dangerous I think.
Ciao
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Two finger braking is great, allows finer modulation of the lever and enables better throttle control on down shifts and less chance of the massive overbraking in a panic situation. You obviously need modern brakes but that's how I ride the V11 and all the other bikes I have for that matter. Its like riding with the ball of your foot on the pegs instead of your instep or going back to non boosted brakes in a car. Once you get accustomed to it and its advantages you wouldn't do it any other way.
My Ducati 1198s has very aggressive front brakes and riding it with full finger braking would be a little dangerous I think.
Phil, how old are you and how long have you been riding MCs? I see you're 57. Suffice it to say you can't teach an old dog new tricks. But at the same time if provoked I might surprise you how fast I can ride. :smiley:
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I am indeed 57 Wayne and have been riding for 45 years unbroken. Haven't been without at least 1 bike for all that time. Riding technique evolves with technology although I must say my track style is very dirt bike based. I have that upright position shoulder turned and ready to catch a slide like a flat track rider. Although its totally natural for me to have my knee down on the track I haven't evolved into the style of the modern racer with the low body position in the corners and head below the screen and elbow down. I'll never get the elbow down as I'm just not fast enough but I'm working on the lower body position. I ask better riders at track days what I need to improve as well as observe.
Cant agree with the old dogs new tricks point of view I'm afraid.
As for speed well nothing would surprise me. The best I can do is low 1m52's around Phillip Island, maybe on a perfect day I could manage a 1m51 but haven't got there yet. The Aussie super-bike guys are in the 1m31 second range and the the GP guys in the 1m28's or so these days. My track bike should be good for 1m40's I should think so there's work to do.
Ciao
(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u393/lucky-phil1/img001_zpse7pxb9of.jpg?t=1460618090)
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I never went the flat track style let alone putting my leg out in the corners like Johnny Cecotto & Kenny Roberts made popular, but all my riding is strictly on public roads now so I get my kicks taking on younger riders on faster bikes who think they've found an old geezer who is easy pickens for fun. Northern California is a plethora of great twisty low traffic roads to have duals on. Used to live there and get back there in the summer to get my mojo back. I'm old school all the way like Mike Hailwood,etc. But bikes/tires/brakes today are far better handling than what they had to make go fast/stop in their era. To each their own happiness. :boozing:
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I never went the flat track style let alone putting my leg out in the corners like Johnny Cecotto & Kenny Roberts made popular, but all my riding is strictly on public roads now so I get my kicks taking on younger riders on faster bikes who think they've found an old geezer who is easy pickens for fun. Northern California is a plethora of great twisty low traffic roads to have duals on. Used to live there and get back there in the summer to get my mojo back. I'm old school all the way like Mike Hailwood,etc. But bikes/tires/brakes today are far better handling than what they had to make go fast/stop in their era. To each their own happiness. :boozing:
Yes just drove LA to SF along the coast. Would rather have done it on the bike.
Also drove the famous Mulholland Drive while in LA. Not impressed I'm afraid.
Ciao
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Since the OP used the term 'panic', the hope is that the bike has ABS. Controlled emergency braking MIGHT be faster without ABS but once panic is involved, squeeeeeezing hard is going to happen. Without ABS a bad outcome seems more likely.
OP here, "panic" braking to me is you are riding at 60 mph when suddenly something blocks your path and the only choice is brake instantly. Whether it's controlled or not depends on the skill of the rider...If you have ever experienced this situation you know it's a fight or flight response .....Let's use the word "emergency" braking instead ...
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I practice all the time from 50-60-70-80 out on the back roads.
Only had to panic brake one time when I got it WAY wrong on a curve in WV. My fault 100% but I saved it.
The practice may not be the same as an all out panic but it is experience none the less.
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OP here, "panic" braking to me is you are riding at 60 mph when suddenly something blocks your path and the only choice is brake instantly. Whether it's controlled or not depends on the skill of the rider...If you have ever experienced this situation you know it's a fight or flight response .....Let's use the word "emergency" braking instead ...
So using "emergency" instead of "panic", here's the thing. I've been riding for a while but compared with many of you, not so many miles (about 90,000). I ride in a pretty paranoid style though I got pulled over for doing 90 once. If I can't see the road ahead of me, I assume some nasty hazard is waiting for me. I totally understand that no matter how defensively you ride, a deer can bolt out right into your path and you can either get nailed by it or be in an 'emergency braking' situation. I have not experienced a full blown emergency braking situation at highway speeds and I hope I never do because my attention would likely be 100% on braking and not on managing the scene around and behind me.
I am not confident that I would not go into 'panic' mode if the vectors of that deer and my bike intersected <100' down the road. Maybe if I had the experiences and had done it a dozen times I would feel like ABS wasn't of any value for me. To me, it's insurance in case my braking technique goes to heck due to panic. This applies more so in the wet and in the dark when I can't judge traction conditions well.
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When faced with a sudden life threatening situation some do nothing while their brain struggles to cope. I think mc riders get away from that behavior with training, experience and practice. I was cooking up I 5 ,in the rain to take the airport exit at Bellingham ,WA . So I says to myself they say these cast iron rotors are sposed to work well even wet and having been in the rain for the past 80 miles, they were wet. So maybe it's time for a simulated emergency braking fiasco. As I rolled of the freeway before I got to the oily area, I dynamited the brakes. Locked up both ends. OOPs. What surprised me was how long it seemed before I could get them released. Stayed upright, trusty Cal2
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In an emergency it all comes down to muscle memory. Muscle memory comes from ongoing practice. Ideally we should all practice enough so that after an emergency braking we will realize that we didn't even think about braking at the time, the mind and body just did it and did it correctly.
The downside is that very few of us practice to that level including myself so I am glad to have ABS on my Norge. ABS may not be perfect but for most of us mortals it is better to have than not.
GliderJohn
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ABS is like a parachute . W/O either you may arrive at your stopping point faster , maybe not in such great shape :laugh:
Dusty
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The bad side of things like ABS is you get lazy with having it and totally depend on it to make up for your lack of better riding skills. It's an enabler.
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The bad side of things like ABS is you get lazy with having it and totally depend on it to make up for your lack of better riding skills. It's an enabler.
You mean like a trike , or disc brakes , or good lighting , or , well , all of the other things that enable us to ride safely ?
Dusty
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Even in a "panic" stop Mike on a sports bike and UPRIGHT your problem wont be a front wheel skid/slide but a trip over the bars. The washout only happens when you are in the panic stop and try naturally to steeraway from the danger at the same time.
I prefer superman to highside or a lowside stuff under a car/truck/whatever.
I've superman-ed over the bars so as not to break my #1 rule Never hit anything solid with your body
I had a buddy do the lowside stuff and I figure he would have been better off going over the car. Then again I don't like to sitz-ski either - I always seem to find the rocks
(http://www.longs2pikes.com/images/bumslide.jpg)
Mark
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I admit I am not a great rider. Only a bit over 100k miles in 20 some odd years of riding, most of that in cities/towns. I've only had one emergency stop and one panic stop. I kinda practice hard stops every now and then. Did a track day once.
The emergency stop was on the Guzzi and I was shocked at the end that I did not lock up the brakes. Dry pavement from about 40mph.
The panic stop was on the Honda NT with ABS. Truck in front of me hit brakes hard where I wasn't expecting it. Compounded cause I was preparing to go around him so I was too close and too fast. The Honda's brake were much more responsive than the Guzzi's so I always used two fingers on the lever. But, those two fingers grabed hard enough that the ABS kicked in and kept me upright as I swerved just a bit to miss the truck.
The ABS kicked in two more times on me as I approached intersections. Sand.
I'd love to have ABS on the Guzzi. I won't buy another bike without it.
Is it a crutch? You bet it is. But, how many of you experts can 'panic' stop on a wet road that has an oil spot on it? (you guys who have raced a lot need not respond, we know you are good, this is for the rest of us unwashed). Or sand, or wet leaves? Those are the times I would really like to have it.
BUT, I'd also like to be able to turn it off when I am on a dirt road, just as I'd like to be able to unlink my brakes when in dirt. :)
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ABS is like a parachute . W/O either you may arrive at your stopping point faster , maybe not in such great shape :laugh:
Dusty
ABS does *not* stop you faster. It *does* stop you straighter.
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ABS does *not* stop you faster. It *does* stop you straighter.
Why I said without ABS the stop may be faster , like going whomp on the ground , which we all agree is never a good thing :laugh:
Dusty
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In the rain. On an interstate in Michigan. It was a downpour and out of nowhere there was a tanker semi almost stopped in front of me and the LeMans IV. Grabbed the hand lever and stomped the foot pedal as hard as possible. With the linked brakes lightly lubed by water, there was no skidding and the bike dropped on it's suspension front and back and dug in. Good thing my jeans were already wet (leaking aerostich).
I was impressed. Fwiw, tires at the time were Metzeler ME-33 and ME-99.
Tobit
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In the rain. On an interstate in Michigan. It was a downpour and out of nowhere there was a tanker semi almost stopped in front of me and the LeMans IV. Grabbed the hand lever and stomped the foot pedal as hard as possible. With the linked brakes lightly lubed by water, there was no skidding and the bike dropped on it's suspension front and back and dug in. Good thing my jeans were already wet (leaking aerostich).
I was impressed. Fwiw, tires at the time were Metzeler ME-33 and ME-99.
Tobit
EXACTLY ! :thumb: No ABS needed. My maxi-scooters are the same way.