Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kiwi_Roy on April 19, 2016, 05:10:16 PM
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I have my theory but perhaps I'm wrong, it's time we put this to bed.
The poll asks what is the current draw from the time you press the start button until the gear engages and the motor starts to wind over. We are not talking the current that the motor draws, just the piggyback solenoid.
Update:
Some interesting discussion happening, I'm surprised how the Poll is going.
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Great topic Roy :thumb: Of course the idea of putting this to bed may be optimistic knowing this group :rolleyes: :evil:
Dusty
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Great topic Roy :thumb: Of course the idea of putting this to bed may be optimistic knowing this group :rolleyes: :evil:
Dusty
Touche' Dusty one. But jeez it's (almost always) fun.
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Touche' Dusty one. But jeez it's (almost always) fun.
Always fun , well sure :laugh:
Dusty
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Ok, I know for a fact that the fuse will blow, so I'll say more than 15.. probably more than 20. <shrug>
Didn't vote, though, because I'm.. as usual.. clueless. :smiley:
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My educated swag is 40+ amps. The lie to this answer is that the solenoid is an inductive device and the intrush current at activation will be huge.
(http://www.scienceshareware.com/images/electricity/waveform-chart-dc-insrush-current-spike.jpg)
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That would explain why my 30A relays don't last very long.
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Goblins!
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The big current is the pull-in winding. The hold-in doesn't need nearly so much. So the surge through the switch or relay is probably in the 30-40-amp range with everything fresh, and could push 50amp as 'lectrical and mechanical resistance increase over time. But that's just the pull-in, and it happens between the Ka- and the -thunk of starter engagement. Hold-in power is minor. It happens starting with -thunk and stopping when you release the button.
Most dashboard starter push-buttons are in the 10-20amp range. Most toggles are in the 5-15-amp range. I have a simple solenoid I'm using as a hood popper. Its only job is to twitch and pull a cable. I burned up a 10-amp push button assuming it didn't need a relay.
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Well, many years ago when I researched it on Bill's Norge, I measured all of the voltage drops, and inrush current, using an oscope and a shunt. The paper that I took notes on is long gone. If you do a search, you may find it here on Wildgoose. I did the math and figured the resistance of everything in the circuit.
The answer is complicated because the circuit resistance also limits it. In other words, it may not quit get to 20 amps of inrush with the factory wiring. But a direct wire may exceed 40.
And the resistance alone the way is everything. Connectors, small wires, and the wimpy 15 amp fuse even.
So I'll vote 30 to 40, but that could be skewed to be a different number.
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If I recall correctly, the BREVA and most Moto Guzzis before it ran the wiring for the current to the solenoid through the Ignition Switch. The V7II does not do this and so should not have a Startus Interruptus problem. Look for bad/loose battery joints.
Cheers
Brian :grin:
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If I recall correctly, the BREVA and most Moto Guzzis before it ran the wiring for the current to the solenoid through the Ignition Switch. The V7II does not do this and so should not have a Startus Interruptus problem. Look for bad/loose battery joints.
Cheers
Brian :grin:
I can't say about the V7II.
But looking at the wiring diagrams for the B11 and the 1TB V7 both show a Starter RELAY that gets power from a fuse which receives the current through the Ignition Keyswitch when it is in the Run position.
That Starter RELAY then uses that power to pull the STARTER SOLENOID when the start RELAY circuit is activated.
Now the SOLENOID itself receives power directly from the battery, but only on the STARTER side of the circuit.
I can't imagine the V7II is any different.
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Well, many years ago when I researched it on Bill's Norge, I measured all of the voltage drops, and inrush current, using an oscope and a shunt. The paper that I took notes on is long gone. If you do a search, you may find it here on Wildgoose. I did the math and figured the resistance of everything in the circuit.
The answer is complicated because the circuit resistance also limits it. In other words, it may not quit get to 20 amps of inrush with the factory wiring. But a direct wire may exceed 40.
And the resistance alone the way is everything. Connectors, small wires, and the wimpy 15 amp fuse even.
So I'll vote 30 to 40, but that could be skewed to be a different number.
An engineer's way of saying he has no clue :evil:
And none of this takes into account that it only happens at the absolutely worst times. For me that was when Wayne was on one side of the parking lot and I was on the other (in a panic pushing every button, switch, and deploying sidestand). He comes over and the bike starts right up. :boozing:
Pete is right, it's just the wing eater making faces at William Shatner.
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That Starter RELAY then uses that power to pull the STARTER SOLENOID
Now the SOLENOID itself receives power directly from the battery
Which is it? Solenoid powered by the switch circuit, or direct from the battery?
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Which is it? Solenoid powered by the switch circuit, or direct from the battery?
The ones I have seen, the relay contact is no help as it is. The path was something like: 30 amp fuse, wimpy wiring, ignition switch, wimpy wiring, 15 amp fuse, relay contact, then wiring to the solenoid.
There was a relay, but the power feeding the relay contact was weak, so the relay was really no help. My fix has been to feed that relay contact directly from the 30 amp fused circuit. Basically: 30 amp fuse, relay contact, wiring to solenoid.
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Which is it? Solenoid powered by the switch circuit, or direct from the battery?
The answer was there, but you deleted too much of the quote:
a Starter RELAY that gets power from a fuse which receives the current through the Ignition Keyswitch when it is in the Run position.
That Starter RELAY then uses that power to pull the STARTER SOLENOID when the start RELAY circuit is activated.
Now the SOLENOID itself receives power directly from the battery, but only on the STARTER side of the circuit.
It's both since the Solenoid has two different but related circuits and each of them get their power from a different source.
Power for the Activation Circuit of the starter Solenoid comes from the starter RELAY through the ignition keyswitch.
Power for the Starter Operation circuit of the starter Solenoid comes directly from the Battery through the large gauge cable.
See my explanation in the V7II won't start thread, post #31
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=82948.msg1310584#msg1310584
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Startus Interuptus is due to the fact there is 32 feet of wiring between the between the battery and the solenoid. :evil:
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Kev, I think the issue is the same as it was on my T5. The power went up to the ign switch, then to the relay. The relay had a jumper from that line to feed the solenoid through the relay. So the power to activate the solenoid went through that bird's nest of wiring.
The fix is to cut that jumper and wire a fused feed from the battery to the relay, then the solenoid sees full battery voltage. In my case I also raised the size of the wire to 16ga.
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Startus Interuptus is due to the fact there is 32 feet of wiring between the between the battery and the solenoid. :evil:
No, no, no, it is not a bit over 10........METERS.
:boozing:
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I added "the fix" of the circuit that bypasses the starter switch to go right to the relay. I saw a bump of 0.5 volt, max, to the solenoid, and decided it wasn't worth the complication.
It's possible that the switches on my '09 V7 hadn't yet degraded. Perhaps when they age more the fix will be useful.
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It's possible that the switches on my '09 V7 hadn't yet degraded. Perhaps when they age more the fix will be useful.
That's my personal SWAG on the non-CARC bikes.
Also, my SWAG includes that there may be a difference in the CARC circuit (perhaps in whatever computer control occurs of the circuit) which makes it show up sooner on those models.
But that's just a SWAG from observation of how much more common it is on newer CARCs and that computer control seems to be the difference in the circuit. But I realize correlation does not prove causation.
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It might be worthwhile to think for a moment about the two questions here - the one posed by the subject title, and the one posed by the poll.
- What do you think causes startus interruptus
- How much current does the starter solenoid draw to pull in?
Do they have anything to do with each other?
My '85 California II has suffered from this complaint for a long time, and here's why I doubt it really has anything to do with the solenoid draw in my case: it happens fairly rarely under very specific conditions, where the solenoid is presumably drawing the same current as it did 30 years ago.
The wiring isn't quite the same as it was 30 years ago, sure, a little of the shine is off and voltage may have dropped some. But it still seems like it would be fairly constant all day long. Maybe the kicker is that I still have had the problem once or twice - after the re-wire. The solenoid is connected to a wire straight from the battery, and it has been a major improvement but not a complete fix.
I believe the real problem is that the solenoid isn't reliably grounded. I didn't make this up, I got it here some years back. This happens after I ride a while, enough to get everything good and hot, and then stop for 10 minutes or so, enough to partly cool down. Different rates of thermal contraction open up the ground connection to the starter or solenoid. The hotter wire is necessary not because the solenoid is a burly current draw, but because the path needs to overcome that weak ground.
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My '85 California II has suffered from this complaint for a long time, and here's why I doubt it really has anything to do with the solenoid draw in my case: it happens fairly rarely under very specific conditions, where the solenoid is presumably drawing the same current as it did 30 years ago.
But isn't that a bad presumption?
Doesn't the solenoid age too?
Not to mention, if it's a solenoid ground problem, doesn't that effect the amount of current it draws as well?
And corrosion from age acting as an insulation would play a part too no?
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Debate wiring all you want, I have also seen solenoids that are too tight in the plunger and need cleaned/sanded off.
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Debate wiring all you want, I have also seen solenoids that are too tight in the plunger and need cleaned/sanded off.
Absolutely. It's common. Add a little corrosion, and it sticks. Sometimes. :smiley:
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Doesn't the solenoid age too?
Not to mention, if it's a solenoid ground problem, doesn't that effect the amount of current it draws as well?
And corrosion from age acting as an insulation would play a part too no?
To a sufficient approximation, it's the same age when it starts, as when it doesn't.
This is my point: if it's a simple function of gradual deterioration over the years, then it wouldn't ever start. But no, it's usually fine.
The conditions under which it doesn't start point to the cause, which is not gradual deterioration of anything.
Bear in mind I'm talking about one specific 30 year old California II, and there could be all kinds of different things going on in other Guzzis of various eras. If you have one that regularly refuses to start, under all kinds of motor temperature conditions, then you're looking at something different than mine.
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Absolutely. It's common. Add a little corrosion, and it sticks. Sometimes. :smiley:
Yep. had it happen to the original Valeo starter on my R100GS. With the starter motor removed, it was possible to hold the starter button while rapping the solenoid lightly with a small hammer. After a couple of taps, the solenoid would free up, and she'd start.
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Yep. had it happen to the original Valeo starter on my R100GS. With the starter motor removed, it was possible to hold the starter button while rapping the solenoid lightly with a small hammer. After a couple of taps, the solenoid would free up, and she'd start.
Could it have been a weak start signal, same result No?
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To a sufficient approximation, it's the same age when it starts, as when it doesn't.
This is my point: if it's a simple function of gradual deterioration over the years, then it wouldn't ever start. But no, it's usually fine.
The conditions under which it doesn't start point to the cause, which is not gradual deterioration of anything.
Bear in mind I'm talking about one specific 30 year old California II, and there could be all kinds of different things going on in other Guzzis of various eras. If you have one that regularly refuses to start, under all kinds of motor temperature conditions, then you're looking at something different than mine.
Ah, I see what you're trying to say, but I still think you might be making bad assumptions.
The relative age of the solenoid may be the same one day to the very next, but it's NOT the same as it was 30 years ago and neither is most of the rest of the circuit. So that changes the equation. It makes it more likely that a borderline system might fail from a temporary condition like temperature or particular charge state of the battery on any given day.
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To a sufficient approximation, it's the same age when it starts, as when it doesn't.
There is something else that changes between one start and the next, the circuit resistance, in particular the ignition switch, as the contacts get dirty no two closings result in the same resistance. It may only vary by a fraction of an Ohm but that's all it takes when you are trying to switch 40+ Amps, do the Math
Current/Resistance = Voltage drop
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I waited a while to see if any other ideas came out of the woodwork. I was surprised how the poll came out 30 - 50 Amps that's about right, the more current you put thru the coils the more chance of it starting
My educated swag is 40+ amps. The lie to this answer is that the solenoid is an inductive device and the intrush current at activation will be huge.
(http://www.scienceshareware.com/images/electricity/waveform-chart-dc-insrush-current-spike.jpg)
No. it's the other way around, the inductive reactance resists change, your curve is almost correct though, the spike is caused by putting 12 Volts across a 0.25 Ohm coil
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The big current is the pull-in winding. The hold-in doesn't need nearly so much. So the surge through the switch or relay is probably in the 30-40-amp range with everything fresh, and could push 50amp as 'lectrical and mechanical resistance increase over time. But that's just the pull-in, and it happens between the Ka- and the -thunk of starter engagement. Hold-in power is minor. It happens starting with -thunk and stopping when you release the button.
RDK pretty much nailed it Ka (45-50Amps)-- thunk (10 Amps)
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it may not quit get to 20 amps of inrush with the factory wiring. But a direct wire may exceed 40.
And the resistance alone the way is everything. Connectors, small wires, and the wimpy 15 amp fuse even.
So I'll vote 30 to 40, but that could be skewed to be a different number.
20 Amps to 40 Amps eh,
Since the strength of a magnetic field is proportional to Ampere turns, that's double with a direct feed
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My fix has been to feed that relay contact directly from the 30 amp fused circuit. Basically: 30 amp fuse, relay contact, wiring to solenoid.
OMG has it figured out
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I added "the fix" of the circuit that bypasses the starter switch to go right to the relay. I saw a bump of 0.5 volt, max, to the solenoid, and decided it wasn't worth the complication.
It's possible that the switches on my '09 V7 hadn't yet degraded. Perhaps when they age more the fix will be useful.
I think if you were to monitor the Voltage difference at the moment of first closing with the high current coil in circuit you would find the difference to be Volts rather than fractions.
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Kev M and Beetle are on top of it.
Charlie B knows how to fix it
I have seen the solenoids gummed up also, oil goes like chewing gum, I use a couple of drops of 3 in 1
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To summarise.
I don't think any Guzzi is immune to Startus Interoptus.
A direct feed to the Start Relay will lessen the chance of it occurring
I have measured the solenoid current on several bikes, with direct wiring the least I got was 37 Amps.
If anyone is interested in a Startus Interuptus fix for their bike send me a PM
Include, bike year and model with an e-mail address so I can send sketches, converse directly.
Cheers
Roy
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Kev M and Beetle are on top of it.
I may have exaggerated the actual length of the wiring.
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I think if you were to monitor the Voltage difference at the moment of first closing with the high current coil in circuit you would find the difference to be Volts rather than fractions.
Could be, could be. As it is there's no problem, so I'm not going to "fix it until it's broken."
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There is something else that changes between one start and the next, the circuit resistance, in particular the ignition switch, as the contacts get dirty no two closings result in the same resistance. It may only vary by a fraction of an Ohm but that's all it takes when you are trying to switch 40+ Amps, do the Math
Current/Resistance = Voltage drop
If anyone here actually experiences this problem, is there anything you can say about when it happens, and when it's likely to be over and the starter works again?
I guess if everyone's went like mine, with what might be a 20 minute outage depending on various factors like how hot the motor is and how cold the air, you all wouldn't be going on like this. So what does it look like with your Guzzis? Starts again after some random number of button presses, might be the second hit or the 200th? Starts the next day? Only starts before noon? Never starts again until you rewire it?
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I've been following this with interest as my 03 EV has a starting issue which I thought was this, but now I'm not so sure.
I don't get the "relay click and nothing" I get starter engagement and a half hearted "Rrr" and stop. Then I release the starter button and immediately hit it again and 99.9% of the time it cranks and starts properly.
My battery is fine, tested at 12.75v after sitting since Sunday. Previous owner has said it's done it since new, it's done 53K
Is this "Startus Interuptus" or do I have another issue?
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I've been following this with interest as my 03 EV has a starting issue which I thought was this, but now I'm not so sure.
I don't get the "relay click and nothing" I get starter engagement and a half hearted "Rrr" and stop. Then I release the starter button and immediately hit it again and 99.9% of the time it cranks and starts properly.
My battery is fine, tested at 12.75v after sitting since Sunday. Previous owner has said it's done it since new, it's done 53K
Is this "Startus Interuptus" or do I have another issue?
That seems like another issue, clean your battery terminals and check where the ground connects to the chassis or engine.
Test the battery Voltage while you are trying to start i.e. while it is under load, it shouldn't drop below 11
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The first was the 'normal' startus interruptus. The fix to the relay wiring noted above.
That worked well, but, I had installed a generic 30A automotive relay. It worked fine for a while, then the problem would come back. I finally got a "starter relay" from NAPA and that has worked well.
When this has happened to me, sometimes repeated stabs at the starter button would make it work. But, this deteriorated over time. At first it was one or two. Then 5 or 6. Then nothing. The symptom is just a click of the small relay, not the solenoid. This is easily tested. Just carry a jumper wire (or insulated handle screwdriver) and 'hotwire' the solenoid. Be very careful you don't short to ground and make SURE the bike is in neutral.
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I've been following this with interest as my 03 EV has a starting issue which I thought was this, but now I'm not so sure.
I don't get the "relay click and nothing" I get starter engagement and a half hearted "Rrr" and stop. Then I release the starter button and immediately hit it again and 99.9% of the time it cranks and starts properly.
My battery is fine, tested at 12.75v after sitting since Sunday. Previous owner has said it's done it since new, it's done 53K
Is this "Startus Interuptus" or do I have another issue?
You imply that the solenoid pulled in. You don't have 'startup interruptus'.
You may have magnets loose inside the starter. Pull the starter and have it cleaned up and inspected inside.
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If anyone here actually experiences this problem, is there anything you can say about when it happens, and when it's likely to be over and the starter works again?
I guess if everyone's went like mine, with what might be a 20 minute outage depending on various factors like how hot the motor is and how cold the air, you all wouldn't be going on like this. So what does it look like with your Guzzis? Starts again after some random number of button presses, might be the second hit or the 200th? Starts the next day? Only starts before noon? Never starts again until you rewire it?
If it happens, turn the ignition switch on and of and on and off a few times. The contacts may wipe clean and get better, maybe.
If your design has the 15 amp fuse in line with the solenoid, bump it to a 20 amp. The sky will not fall when you do that, do it.
If that doesn't help, find a hill to bump start it. Or try a jump start, as a bit of extra voltage may do the trick.
If you are just worried about it, put in the direct wire fix and move on.
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My personal starting problem is caused by old age and a benign swelling of the prostate. The Guzzi's problem is usually corrosion somewhere and or Trolls.
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If you are just worried about it, put in the direct wire fix and move on.
I have put in the direct wire. It's more of a band-aid than a fix, but it helped a lot.
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If anyone here actually experiences this problem, is there anything you can say about when it happens, and when it's likely to be over and the starter works again?
I guess if everyone's went like mine, with what might be a 20 minute outage depending on various factors like how hot the motor is and how cold the air, you all wouldn't be going on like this. So what does it look like with your Guzzis? Starts again after some random number of button presses, might be the second hit or the 200th? Starts the next day? Only starts before noon? Never starts again until you rewire it?
If you continue to experience lack of starting why not fix it?
Measure the Voltage at the solenoid trigger terminal while pushing the button, should be ~ 12 Volts
Find out where it's being lost. On most bikes it's thru the ignition switch,
Clean the switch or provide a more reliable source of 12 Volts to the 30 terminal of the relay
Check all the other connections are clean tight and greased like the spade at the solenoid
If you don't have a schematic look for one close on this site.
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/sportissimo.html
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Don't know, don't care. Someone else came up with a fix and I installed it. It's a Boy Scout thing and Electric's is Hard
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If you continue to experience lack of starting why not fix it?
Measure the Voltage at the solenoid trigger terminal while pushing the button, should be ~ 12 Volts
You're talking about band-aids. I've done the band-aid thing, and it works pretty well, just as one would expect not 100%. Since as best as I can tell the problem when it happens is a bad ground, I've idly thought about connecting a ground wire across the starter/motor joint where I think the ground fails. But it's one of those things, the problem is quite infrequent, and even if we could measure motivation with a multitester you could barely detect mine.
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I've idly thought about connecting a ground wire across the starter/motor joint where I think the ground fails. But it's one of those things, the problem is quite infrequent, and even if we could measure motivation with a multitester you could barely detect mine.
If you wanted to experiment go ahead and make your jumper and put a ten amp fuse in the middle of it. If the fuse blows you will know current is travelling through the jumper.
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If you really want to upgrade to a more robust starter circuit, wire one of these babies in. Yes I know, it's probably an overkill but as a bonus it can be additionally wired to a remote secret starter button to energize the starter motor, bypassing the bar mounted switch and the cube relay.
(http://images.cjponyparts.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/s/s/ss5_1.10.jpg)
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Thanks Roy and OMG, I'll follow your suggestions and start another thread if needed. :thumb:
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You're talking about band-aids. I've done the band-aid thing, and it works pretty well, just as one would expect not 100%. Since as best as I can tell the problem when it happens is a bad ground, I've idly thought about connecting a ground wire across the starter/motor joint where I think the ground fails. But it's one of those things, the problem is quite infrequent, and even if we could measure motivation with a multitester you could barely detect mine.
If you want to wire a separate ground it is simple to do. Get a good cable and wire it from the ground terminal on the solenoid and bolt the other end to the same place the neg cable from the battery bolts to the frame. On my bike it is about 6inches away from the solenoid.
PS I consider how the factory wired the starter relay to be a "band aid". Rewiring it was the proper way to make it work.
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You're talking about band-aids. I've done the band-aid thing, and it works pretty well, just as one would expect not 100%.
What equipment and what methods did you use to indicate it is a band aid.
I used a Fluke ScopeMeter and current shunts to measure the voltage and current at various points. I found all of the voltage drops in the system and fixed the problem.
It sounds like you have a different or additional issue from the typical startus interuptus.
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It sounds like you have a different or additional issue from the typical startus interuptus.
That's why I asked those questions, about what happens in the typical case. charlie b described his scenario, and indeed it was different from mine - but who knows if his is typical?
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Well considering that the solenoid is nothing more than a relay. Because it draws so much current, it often is energized by a a smaller relay. The whole point is to have a small petite handlebar switch that can't handle much more than an amp of power start your engine.
Now being an old geezer means that I remember cars that didn't have a solenoid in the starter system at all.
Down on the floor board in a corner was a heavy duty plunger like button with a strong return spring. To start the engine, you turned on the key and stepped on this plunger hard. The plunger was a really heavy duty switch that sent power to the starter motor which spun the engine to start. Since most of these old vehicles were six volt systems, the amperage to start was ferociously high. Modern twelve volt systems
require much less starting amps. Why not equip your motorcycle with a big manual starting switch like those old cars had? Modern motorcycle engines require a lot less amps than those old six volt cars so the switch need not be a physically massive to do the job. An additional plus is that a solenoid requires a substantial power draw just to close. This is just that much power not available to spin the starter motor.
Therefore a manual switch should be far more dependable than any system using relay and solenoid circuits.
Sometimes luddite tech can have advantages.
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You're talking about band-aids. I've done the band-aid thing, and it works pretty well, just as one would expect not 100%. Since as best as I can tell the problem when it happens is a bad ground, I've idly thought about connecting a ground wire across the starter/motor joint where I think the ground fails. But it's one of those things, the problem is quite infrequent, and even if we could measure motivation with a multitester you could barely detect mine.
A band aid? is that a temporary fix until the factory comes up with a permanent one, how long do we have to wait for that?
The factory screwed up, have you seen any evidence that they tried to fix it
What OMG and I propose is a permanent fix, a re-design if you will, wire the start circuit in accordance with good electrical practice.
Feeding the Start relay contact direct from the battery with a dedicated fuse or at least from a circuit not run through the Ignition switch
Adding a main fuse to protect the unfused wiring to and from the ignition switch (the newer bikes have this)
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donn,
Sorry but I didn't see what your starting problem is. You mention the environmental conditions, but, what does the bike do?
Do you get just a click from the starter relay or do you get a clunk from the solenoid? If it is just a click from the relay, then try changing relays first (since you say yours is direct wired). Until I bought a relay specifically for starting I had them fail on a regular basis. And, yes, heat was the first indication, like after a gas stop. On mine the relay was located next to the rectifier, which is not a very cold place to be (I have since relocated it to the other side of the bike).
FWIW, I had a bad solenoid at one time as well. I figured my 30yr old one was about to go so I installed a new one. Well, at first only when hot, later at just about any time, it would just clunk. Turns out it was not engaging the starter contacts correctly. The clunk was the pinion hitting the ring gear, but, not meshing. If I put the bike in gear, rocked it a little, put it back in neutral, then it would start.
Or, your solenoid contacts might be bad and you need a new one. Or it is 'stuck' or 'gummy' and needs to be cleaned.
Several reasons why a solenoid won't operate correctly.
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Sorry but I didn't see what your starting problem is. You mention the environmental conditions, but, what does the bike do?
Do you get just a click from the starter relay or do you get a clunk from the solenoid? If it is just a click from the relay, then try changing relays first (since you say yours is direct wired). Until I bought a relay specifically for starting I had them fail on a regular basis. And, yes, heat was the first indication, like after a gas stop. On mine the relay was located next to the rectifier, which is not a very cold place to be (I have since relocated it to the other side of the bike).
Ah, maybe yours was not so different from mine. Gas stop, "rest" stop, after enough miles to get the motor good and hot.
Then the click with no clunk or anything, the symptoms we know, and the "fix" to increase the voltage does dramatically reduce the incidence of the problem.
But the circumstances point to the real cause of the problem. Sure, the switch circuit has kind of low voltage. But day after day it works fine, in all kinds of weather, with the battery run down so low it will barely turn over, continues to work fine. Then one day you get it real hot, cool it down for a few minutes, and click. OK! The source of the problem wasn't the voltage, was it?
You said before that in one or more cases it took some random number of attempts, which is different. I mean if it really lasts some random amount of time, maybe seconds / maybe days - then the switch contacts and other ideas suggested above start to sound more likely.
I like the manual switch idea! I may have Luddite tendencies myself.
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Have you inspected the solenoid to make sure it is not too tight?
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I sure haven't. I surmise that there's a sort of piston in there, and if it's a tight fit in its sleeve, thermal expansion / contraction could cause it to bind up or something?
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Yep, that's what mine would do. Put in a new relay and it would work great for a few weeks. Then it would start the 'no start' routine again. Once I got a "starter" relay instead of one of those generic 30A jobs the problem has gone away. Now I know why, 40A time after time will kill a 30A relay.
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But the circumstances point to the real cause of the problem. Sure, the switch circuit has kind of low voltage. But day after day it works fine, in all kinds of weather, with the battery run down so low it will barely turn over, continues to work fine. Then one day you get it real hot, cool it down for a few minutes, and click. OK! The source of the problem wasn't the voltage, was it?
I don't know, did you measure it?
Sounds like lack of Voltage across the solenoid coil to me but what do I know?
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Looking at the results so far I say that statistically - no one knows :grin:
I'll get my coat
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Looking at the results so far I say that statistically - no one knows :grin:
I'll get my coat
Well said Tris, you do get that feeling sometimes, only thing I'd like to add to that mate, is that when you ask, you're bound to admit that you're somewhat in the dark also and people are doing their best to help.
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Completely agree and one of the 1st things I did when I got the Breva was the Startus-Interuptus fix.
Problem with that is that is if I don't ever have an issue was it because my bike didn't succumb to the problem or whether the fix ........ fixed it
I'm still respectful of the people on this forum who share their knowledge so willingly :bow: :bow:
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Yep, if you fix it ahead of time you'll never know if you would have had the problem. But, if the Guzzi relay is on the weak side, ie, rated at 30A, then it may start to fail on you in the future. It may take a while as my factory relay lasted to the 70k mile point :) It was the aftermarket automotive relays that didn't last long.
Basically, if you have the problem then 1) rewire so the relay gets power directly from a fused 12V source. 2) If the problem continues get a new relay. 3) If you still have a problem when it is warm, then relocate the relay to a cooler location and replace it.
Again, if it is the relay or current capacity through the circuit/relay, then you can check it by hotwiring the solenoid. If hotwiring works then it is a relay/current issue, not a solenoid/battery issue.
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I think the cause of Startus Interuptus is this.
The factory engineers measured the current drawn by the solenoid and found it to be around 10 Amps, this is what you will see if you hook a digital meter in series with the trigger terminal because the meter is far too slow to record the inrush current (more like 45 Amps for about 0.1 seconds).
Using the value 10 Amps it seems reasonable to feed the start relay through the ignition switch and a 15 Amp fuse.
I honestly believe if they were aware of the high inrush current they wouldn't think of doing that, it doesn't make sense.
When the bike is new and the contacts are pristine they can take the inrush but as they age a bit the resistance builds up to a point where they fail.
I doubt the engineer ever gets any feedback so he caries on making the same mistake on model after model.
All the fix does is bypass the switch contacts and a bunch of wire, the logic stays the same because with the key Off there is no supply to the start button, this is very important with children around, they like to push buttons.
BTW the Omrons I buy are rated 100 Amp inrush, specs may vary.
http://www.omron.com/ecb/products/pdf/en-g8hn.pdf
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No, no, no, it is not a bit over 10........METERS.
:boozing:
That'd be METRES .
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Truth is , Startus Interuptus is caused by excessive wheel offset :evil:
Dusty
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Truth is , Startus Interuptus is caused by excessive wheel offset :evil:
Dusty
There you go ………… no problemo.
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Truth is , Startus Interuptus is caused by excessive wheel offset :evil:
Dusty
Now now Dusty, I can't see if you're smiling so I'll presume that you are, it'll work out better that way. I'll leave the other thing alone until someone (and it won't be me ) manages to come up with the REAL reason, I've come to realise I'll be waiting a while......
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There you go ���� no problemo.
There never was a problem Randy, but somewhere there's an answer. BTW, is Arthur's seat chairlift going ?
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One thing you guys who claim it's the solenoid sticking haven't considered
The starting circuit fuse is typically 15 Amps
The solenoid will pull 45 Amps
If it's just stuck why doesn't the fuse blow?
I tell you it's not getting enough Voltage to pull the current it wants.
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Just use the kick starter. Older Guzzis had them, why ever did Guido think they might not be wanted?
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........When the bike is new and the contacts are pristine they can take the inrush but as they age a bit the resistance builds up a bit, that's when they fail.
I doubt the engineer ever gets any feedback so he caries on making the same mistake on model after model........
And that Roy is quite likely to be the key issue
Probably at new the OEM circuit capability is only a touch over marginal and as time, wear and corrosion kick in drops through the threshold into failure
So a lack of feedback (which is surprising given how long this issue has been about) and a lack of knowledge/experience in the Design Team means that nothing gets changed
Its a shame
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One thing you guys who claim it's the solenoid sticking haven't considered
The starting circuit fuse is typically 15 Amps
The solenoid will pull 45 Amps
If it's just stuck why doesn't the fuse blow?
I tell you it's not getting enough Voltage to pull the current it wants.
In the stuck solenoids I worked on, the fuse DID blow after a second.
Good point on the others. No fuse blowing, likely not a sticking solenoid.
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Probably at new the OEM circuit capability is only a touch over marginal and as time, wear and corrosion kick in drops through the threshold into failure
So eventually, your motorcycle won't start until you do something about it. Dang Italians and their crummy electronics!
That makes sense, if that's what happens. Though for the one person whose failure mode was like that, it was apparently relays that failed because they were light duty stuff from the auto parts store.
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Relays will eventually fail, sooner if the current is near or over their contact capacity.
Each time you activate a mechanical relay, there will be a slight wearing of the contacts. Over time this will get to the point that the contacts are no longer 'flat'. This means the area actually conducting the current is smaller, making the problem worse, until...there is enough resistance so the relay does not flow enough current to do the intended job. Then, you buy a new relay.
This is part of what the 'startus interuptus' is. The circuit provided by MG is marginal at providing current to the relay in the first place. Then the relay is faced with larger currents, which means faster wear and more resistance and more current until it no longer works every time.
So, again, fix 1 is to provide a better current flow to the relay. Fix 2 is to put a decent relay in there. I added a fix 3 and relocated the relay to a "cooler" position on the bike.
There is a known issue and a known fix. What else is there?
PS you should also know that every wiring connection on the bike also deteriorates over time, especially if you are in an area where corrosion is an issue.
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Not to beat this into the ground, but ... with all that old wiring, my motorcycle started fine all the time, except in one situation.
With all that deterioration, the wiring was still providing plenty of juice to get the solenoid going, every day, after sitting around for weeks, whatever. The stock wiring and stock relay worked fine. Except in one situation.
Maybe there's a different click-no-start problem for each of us. Yours was apparently weak relays, maybe someone out there had this problem due to deteriorated wiring. We'll suspect that when someone shows up who just regularly has the problem, intermittently perhaps but - unlike me - under no special conditions.
(The click-no-start situation in my case, again, is a brief stop after riding a bit, say more than 50 miles, so essentially, during cool down from good and hot.)
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I mentioned earlier that I have a solenoid that I'm using as a hood popper. It looks exactly like what you'd have hanging off a starter and has a pull-in and hold-in coil. For purposes of this topic, I'm running it directly through a push-button -- no relay. I've fused the circuit. It blows a 10-amp fuse every time. It takes out a 15a fuse within 5 cycles if you linger on the button at all. I get a little better out of a 20a fuse, but I never know which pop will be its last.
Bottom line is that unless you've got a starter button good for about 40amp you really do need a relay.
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Not to beat this into the ground, but ... with all that old wiring, my motorcycle started fine all the time, except in one situation.
With all that deterioration, the wiring was still providing plenty of juice to get the solenoid going, every day, after sitting around for weeks, whatever. The stock wiring and stock relay worked fine. Except in one situation.
Maybe there's a different click-no-start problem for each of us. Yours was apparently weak relays, maybe someone out there had this problem due to deteriorated wiring. We'll suspect that when someone shows up who just regularly has the problem, intermittently perhaps but - unlike me - under no special conditions.
(The click-no-start situation in my case, again, is a brief stop after riding a bit, say more than 50 miles, so essentially, during cool down from good and hot.)
Have you changed the relay yet? If not, try it. See if the problem goes away.'
Or, when the problem happens try the hotwire and see if that works.
At least you'd narrow down the problem instead of just writing about it.
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Startus Interuptus is when you are feeling amorous and she says "not tonight honey, I have a headache!"
Oh wait, you're not talking about.............n ever mind.
John Henry
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Someone had to go there, John Henry -- better you than me. :boozing:
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Startus Interuptus is when you are feeling amorous and she says "not tonight honey, I have a headache!"
Oh wait, you're not talking about.............n ever mind.
John Henry
I reckon that should be the last word on this topic :Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu
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I have never had the bike fail to start when the battery had sufficient voltage under load.
Blah blah blah relay blah blah blah wiring blah blah blah.
Fix your battery.
Are there other factors at work as the bike gets old? Sure. I did, in fact, bypass the the loom and feed the relay for the solenoid directly just because that's better for everyone involved except lawyers who want the switch to block power directly.
Do you REALLY want to put this to bed forever?
Fix your battery.
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I was just cleaning out my briefcase and found this,
Someone with an EV was experiencing SI so I volunteered to fix mine and document the change it made.
(http://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s526/Kiwi_Roy/Starters/Inrush%20Test_zps6e0havnv.jpg)
Before I started I cleaned the ignition switch to give it the best chance of working with the original wiring. Using my scope and a current shunt I measured the solenoid current around 30 Amps for 40 milliseconds before the main contacts closed and the engine started turning over, this is acceptable.
I didn't use my storage scope just repeated the sequence multiple times with the engine disabled and sketched what I saw.
After bypassing the ignition switch the inrush current rose by just 17% but notice how the time it took to engage the starter dropped in half.
Note: I consider 35 Amps to be quite low there must be quite a resistance in the wiring from relay to the solenoid I have measured much higher on other Guzzis.
I should have done this test before cleaning the switch.
The point is bypassing the switch made a significant improvement to the starter operation.
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There never was a problem Randy, but somewhere there's an answer. BTW, is Arthur's seat chairlift going ?
No, it's not - someone with big pockets must've
bought it though as it's getting a complete re-do.
Pity really, those hairpins are a good scratch and
now half of them have got red clay dust on them
from the work and after it reopens the terrorists
- oh sorry tourists will make it a snail race to the
top again. Place will be full of totally distracted
idiots who don't know where they're going again.
Maurie.