Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: stevet on April 23, 2016, 07:56:39 AM
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Sorry, I'm about to rant.
I think I may have asked this question about 10 years ago, and at the time got an answer of, "The motorcycle undustry seems to be about 10 years behind the auto industry in regard to fuel injection technology, in particular the software." At least that is what my aging brain is recalling. Maybe it's all just a halucination...
Anyway, I keep an eye on the better FI threads such as the ones running now that could affect my V7II. But again, 10 years later, and in all seriousness, why in the hell can't these manufacturers (namely Moto Guzzi and its subcontactors, because I willingly bought one, again) get this fuel injection programming right the first time? It's 20-flippin'-16 for God's sake! Why is it left up to passionate enthusiasts and gracious one-man mechanic shops to do the job of the paid engineers, to do the right thing and to do things right?
There is NO excuse. Not anymore. The big brands in cars sell product globally and tweak their systems for regional conditions, and these vehicles roll down the road just fine as soon as the ignition system is started. The big 4 Japanese bike brands, same thing. Start, and go. Guzzi- start, sit around for a couple minutes while it coughs and gags and gasps, and groans, and then feather it for the first couple blocks until it gets its legs underneath... it's like a lifelong cigarette smoker getting out of bed in the morning.
For the love of all that is good and pure and right... Hey, Italy, get with the effing program already!!! I had a 1979 Audi that was fuel injected, ran like a champ. I've got a 2016 MG that is fuel injected that can't hold a candle to the system in the Audi. Maybe its time for MG to get a new FI supplier! This isn't ricket science. Geezus.
Phew, I feel better, for the moment.
Steve.
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Emission standards?
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They couldn't ever get carburetors right, either. As far as I'm concerned, most manufacturers mostly get FI right. The FI on my V7II was right from the beginning, and it's still right after 7800 mi. You have to understand that motorcyclists, as a breed, like to tinker. They'll find a way to "improve" anything that can be adjusted. Then they'll express their frustration on forums like this one when things end up being "improved" for the worse.
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My 1976 Volkswagen FI runs great. I'm pretty sure it has to do with emissions compliance. On a car it's easier to bolt on 100lbs of smog gear. On a motorcycle, where every ounce counts? Not so much.
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I have read quite a few motorcycle reviews that complain about things like "snatchy response" and "flat spots" in the big four Japanese brands. Also articles about aftermarket parts and reflashes for them that improve running. I assume emissions requirements are at least partly responsible, particularly as they relate to highly tuned race engines trying to meet them.
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The carbs on my sport 1100 were a mess from the factory.
My V11 LeMans efi was great for 40k miles.
No complaints about the efi on my 2014 V7 Special.
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The engineers could make them run perfect if they didn't have to compromise drive ability for emissions standards
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I tend to believe they are trying to balance too many things:
* emissions
* performance
* efficiency
* reliability
It's ironic that I've always found Harley's EFI systems to run extremely well and trouble free. But I think their advantage is that really do purposely leaves some performance on the table making the trade-off between power and emissions easier to handle.
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I've often thought it might be more difficult to make FI respond precisely on a 125hp/500 pound motorcycle, than on a 2500 pound econo-box cage with similar hp. Any slight change from off throttle to on throttle will probably be amplified through the much lighter-weight motorcycle, with the much heavier car, less so. Just a theory. Having said that, my 1995 R1100RS was a handful when in very slow, stop and start traffic (well-documented surging problem.) My 2v 1200 Sport fuel injection (stock map) is much better-mannered in similar circumstances.
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In my experience it's a Guzzi issue.My FI 08' Wing runs great from day one(50k now).My FI 14' Indian runs great from day one(10k now).My 09' Norge has to be messed with to run OK.
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Some FI tuning truisms:
1) Liquid cooling allows engines to run leaner without harm.
2) 10/15% ethanol fuels run 4-6% leaner than pure gasoline (many foreign makes are not developed with ethanol fuels)
3) Required pollution control devices are bulky and heavy, and catalytic converters produce a great deal of heat.
Considering the above; getting an EPA-regulated, air-cooled, medium displacement, OHV, limited production, foreign motorcycle to run at all is an extraordinary accomplishment. It is as though bike manufacturers have said, "If you want to hold on to dated designs, you're going to have to figure out how to make it run on your own."
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My 2013 Stone ran and 2016 V7 II Stone runs awesome. Puts the Triumph FI on my Scrambler to shame. The V7II is so smooth it's the closest thing to a carb I've driven.
Don't know what to tell ya.
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The V7II is so smooth it's the closest thing to a carb I've driven.
Isn't that like saying "My computer is so easy to use, it's the closest thing to an abacus I've found."? :laugh:
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The stock injection on our Scouts, our Jackal, and on the EV I used to own are all perfect. I wouldn't change a thing-and I haven't.
Snatchy throttles on FI bikes I think stem from the non-proportional opening of butterfly-type throttles vs. slides, and a lack of vehicle weight that dampens the snatchiness. Ride by wire can help, obviously. The Cali 1400 I rode was great-so air-cooled FI bikes can do very well.
Whatever, I love FI.
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Isn't that like saying "My computer is so easy to use, it's the closest thing to an abacus I've found."? :laugh:
My carbureted Guzzi's are the closest thing to a really good fuel injection. :grin:
I hear the op on this one. I understand the dilemma with emissions, etc. but I still think it stinks even within the perimeters they work within. I suppose it's like sound engineers in my biz where they do all the tweaking to the product often times at your expense. They can turn buttons, but they often don't have a good sense for the overall. They also think they know better. Well... they don't, but they can run the buttons. I think these engineers don't ride the bikes and just come up with maps to put numbers where they need to be. I call it a start, but not real world results. Ride the damn bikes and see what it's doing!!!!
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While some have pointed out that motorcycle fuel injection is a balancing act between performance, emissions, fuel economy and so on, there is another factor not mentioned - cost. More investment in both sophisticated components and testing would resolve EFI issues for many vehicles, especially Moto Guzzis. Smaller production runs mean any costs are shared by a smaller volume of units sold, which translates into increased consumer cost.
As for other manufacturers, the EFI on my V-Strom wasn't perfect either. The Wing (as an example) is an 1800cc 6-cylinder, and comes from a company that has built everything from small sedans to hybrids to F1 engines - I suspect there's just a deeper pool of talent and knowledge to draw on when building an engine that's a lot like others you've already built.
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FWIW, the EFI on my Cali is flawless -- starts reliably and quickly every time, no warmup needed.
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"... I still think it stinks even within the perimeters they work within. I suppose it's like sound engineers in my biz where they do all the tweaking to the product often times at your expense. They can turn buttons, but they often don't have a good sense for the overall..."
[/quote]
https://www.vocabulary.com/articles/chooseyourwords/parameter-perimeter/
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agree wih OP.
Try riding a cali vintage with the stock FI map. You can barely use 5th gear!
Griso benefits greatly from beetle's map...
I feel Guzzi should do better
just my 2c of a €.
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FWIW, the EFI on my Cali is flawless -- starts reliably and quickly every time, no warmup needed.
Both my `07(250) & 09(400) MP3 EFIs are flawless Just turn the key like on a car and you're good to go. Is it because they're singles? :huh: My `04 750 Breva EFI is good too.
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"Rode 115K miles on a 1972 850 Eldorado between 1980 and 1990 - Sold it to spend my time riding horses. I'm now riding my second Guzzi - 1999 Bassa..."
http://www.thepunctuationguide.com/hyphen.html
Thank you normzone.
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Both my `07(250) & 09(400) MP3 EFIs are flawless Just turn the key like on a car and you're good to go. Is it because they're singles? :huh: My `04 750 Breva EFI is good too.
Is the 09 open-loop?
Closed loop EFI motorcycles (at least air-cooled ones) are really walking an line and doing an emissions dance when they swap over to feedback operation.
I think actually that's part of the general problems we hear about with motorcycles vs cars.
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There are so many misconceptions that have been repeated so many times they have become accepted as truth about FI that it's pretty much impossible to enter into any sort of reasonable discussion about it.
Pete
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There are so many misconceptions that have been repeated so many times they have become accepted as truth about FI that it's pretty much impossible to enter into any sort of reasonable discussion about it.
Pete
This.
Like most everything else, it's more productive noise to whine about what's not understood than it is to learn and understand it. :coffee:
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Is the 09 open-loop?
Closed loop EFI motorcycles (at least air-cooled ones) are really walking an line and doing an emissions dance when they swap over to feedback operation.
I think actually that's part of the general problems we hear about with motorcycles vs cars.
All these 3 rigs are closed loop, but unlike the Breva, the scooters don't have a manual high idle lever for when the motor is cold, and the scooters are also water cooled like a car. My `04 Aprilia 460GT scooter is also EFI and it runs flawlessly too like the MP3s.
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All these 3 rigs are closed loop, but unlike the Breva, the scooters don't have a manual high idle lever for when the motor is cold, and the scooters are also water cooled like a car. My `04 Aprilia 460GT scooter is also EFI and it runs flawlessly too like the MP3s.
Well, so much for that swag.
Or maybe we've still hit on part of the equation.
Water-cooled = easier to regulate
Fast idle lever = one more circumstance where the ECM probably doesn't enter closed-loop (easier to regulate cold idle).
Just a swag....
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I for one don't understand the complaints. My V7II Stone runs great, no problems, no issues. Starts right up hot or cold, idles smoothly, doesn't stall when stopped. Can I be the only one who has a Guzzi that actually likes it?
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Isn't that like saying "My computer is so easy to use, it's the closest thing to an abacus I've found."? :laugh:
You know what I mean, don't you?
Specifically, open-closed throttle transitions, both low speed and high speed. Some fuel injected bikes are so "snatchy" or herky jerky, never had that with a finely tuned carb
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You know what I mean, don't you?
Specifically, open-closed throttle transitions, both low speed and high speed. Some fuel injected bikes are so "snatchy" or herky jerky, never had that with a finely tuned carb
Carbs, being physical and acting on vacuum would have a natural buffer.
EFI, being electronic, can react in a microsecond, and the physical components may need to catch up. But the sudden response could potentially be "snatchy".
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Yup, that's the way to do it! Blame the incredibly accurate air/fuel metering system for poor maintenance! Brilliant! :grin:
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Yup, that's the way to do it! Blame the incredibly accurate air/fuel metering system for poor maintenance! Brilliant! :grin:
Pete, not sure if you're talking to me, but I'm not complaining (nor have I ever) that the throttle response is so good that it might feel sudden.
I'm just giving an explanation why some people might find the more accurate system feels that way to them.
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I for one don't understand the complaints. My V7II Stone runs great, no problems, no issues. Starts right up hot or cold, idles smoothly, doesn't stall when stopped. Can I be the only one who has a Guzzi that actually likes it?
No, you can't be the only one, I'm in total sync, but we're not going to get any traction on a complaint thread.
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Do new bikes need to meet the emission standards as cars ? Do any of you own a high performance new car with a standard transmission? Does it have slight glitches in throttle response or whatever? It's easier with an auto tranny to hide drivability slight problems.....And the nature of a bike with the operator inches from the engine and the light weight makes it more of an intimate experience and any flaws are more noticeable.
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Do new bikes need to meet the emission standards as cars ? Do any of you own a high performance new car with a standard transmission? Does it have slight glitches in throttle response or whatever? It's easier with an auto tranny to hide drivability slight problems.....And the nature of a bike with the operator inches from the engine and the light weight makes it more of an intimate experience and any flaws are more noticeable.
No the standards aren't the same, but they are getting closer.
I don't have a high performance/lightweight modern car, with a manual, but have driven a few and have owned a number of DBW modern vehicles with manuals.
I think you'll find someone to complain about any vehicle, but I think most are splitting rch's.
My current Wrangler Unlimited is DBW with a 6-speed and owners complain about the hill holder (easily turned off), about the traction control (also can disable, but rarely need too), about supposed delayed throttle response etc.
I have no issues or complaints... Nor can I remember any on the last 4 DBW manuals we've owned.
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I guess maybe what you call high performance might be different than I, but I had a supercharged MINI with a manual transmission, and driveability was fine.
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What I was quick to assume was a FI glitch with my 09 griso, turned out to be anything but. The "fueling" seemed terrible at low revs, the infamous flat spot at 3,000 and a unpredictable idle off warm up. In actuality it turned out to be a multitude of small set up issues unrelated really to the FI. Slack throttle cables, twin opened air bleed screws, a messed with sacred screw along with slight blow by on one intake valve. Oh and did I mention a tps of 7.8 and out of spec valve gaps. Don't be too quick to blame FI until you have ensured proper set up especially on the 8v. Once the set up issues were resolved the lean tuning of the factory map, to meet emission regs, and the fact it is a single lamda on a twin with dissimilar header pipes were easily corrected. A $15 cable, a laptop and a Beetle map with lamda off. It now runs and behaves as it would be expected to , although it may not pass a DEP sniff test. :laugh:
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What I was quick to assume was a FI glitch with my 09 griso, turned out to be anything but. The "fueling" seemed terrible at low revs, the infamous flat spot at 3,000 and a unpredictable idle off warm up. In actuality it turned out to be a multitude of small set up issues unrelated really to the FI. Slack throttle cables, twin opened air bleed screws, a messed with sacred screw along with slight blow by on one intake valve. Oh and did I mention a tps of 7.8 and out of spec valve gaps. Don't be too quick to blame FI until you have ensured proper set up especially on the 8v. Once the set up issues were resolved the lean tuning of the factory map, to meet emission regs, and the fact it is a single lamda on a twin with dissimilar header pipes were easily corrected. A $15 cable, a laptop and a Beetle map with lamda off. It now runs and behaves as it would be expected to , although it may not pass a DEP sniff test. :laugh:
:thumb:
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No the standards aren't the same, but they are getting closer.
I don't have a high performance/lightweight modern car, with a manual, but have driven a few and have owned a number of DBW modern vehicles with manuals.
I think you'll find someone to complain about any vehicle, but I think most are splitting rch's.
My current Wrangler Unlimited is DBW with a 6-speed and owners complain about the hill holder (easily turned off), about the traction control (also can disable, but rarely need too), about supposed delayed throttle response etc.
I have no issues or complaints... Nor can I remember any on the last 4 DBW manuals we've owned.
We have two older 5 speed XJ Cherokees and one of them is getting a bit long in the tooth. My wife likes the two door Wranglers so we might be considering buying a new or one year old model. It would be a manual transmission.I hear the new V-6 is quite powerful for a Jeep...Any other issues with yours?
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Pete, not sure if you're talking to me, but I'm not complaining (nor have I ever) that the throttle response is so good that it might feel sudden.
I'm just giving an explanation why some people might find the more accurate system feels that way to them.
No, it was just a general observation Kev. People complain about the FI being shit but then openly admit that their bikes aren't set up even remotely correctly. I just find it hilarious.
Certainly there are plenty of issues with some aspects of how some of the bikes fuel up but it isn't that they are 'Mapped Lean'. The base maps are rich, it's the way the ECU trims the fuel down that makes for the super-lean condition that people notice and complain about on certain machines. Once the ECU goes open loop they are awash with fuel, and just as well. People insist on sticking on loud pipes and using shitty aftermarket filters, in a lot of cases if the fueling wasn't rich you'd blow a hole in a piston! :grin:
Pete
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I currently own 3 bikes that others have described as having a 'snatchy' throttle. On two of them a simple throttle cable adjustment fixed the problem for me. I no longer notice it. Of the three, the V7S is the 'smoothest', and has not needed that adjustment in the 2 years I've owned it.
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It's ironic that I've always found Harley's EFI systems to run extremely well and trouble free.
When most Harley's cannot maintain an idle at a stoplight without flapping the throttle I would not say that is extremely well or trouble free. Have you heard a Harley idle lately?
Or is that a symptom of clueless owners trying to put bolt-on mods to the engine?
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When most Harley's cannot maintain an idle at a stoplight without flapping the throttle I would not say that is extremely well or trouble free. Have you heard a Harley idle lately?
Or is that a symptom of clueless owners trying to put bolt-on mods to the engine?
Funny story time.
In about 1994/95 Harley contacted with Weber-Marelli to produce their first production EFI system (single throttle body, speed density, open loop system very similar to the early Guzzi EFI systems).
When they unveiled it for the Harley engineers there were protests that it idled too smoothly and didn't sound like a Harley.
The Weber-Marelli engineers were asked to replicate the sound of a carbureted Harley. So they studied it and said that the narrow V-twin, short timing between ignition for each cylinder, and the small common manifold caused random patterns of turbulence that disrupted air:fuel charges in reach of the cylinders at different times. They said to replicate it they'd need a random pattern of poor idle fueling that just made no sense and that Harley customers would have to get used to a stable idle.
Honestly when I picked up my 1996 EFI RK (first year production) back in 96 it took some getting used to.
But every EFI Harley I've owned or ridden idled just fine.
So yes, just idiot owners mimicking what they think they have heard owners of poor idling carbureted Harleys do (which was likely to clear the carb and manifold one or two times before taking off from idle to prevent it from back firing through the carb and dieing (which would happen randomly with the carb models, see what the Weber-Marelli engineers discovered).
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To the op because most car manufacturers are not trying to get an archaic retro pile of puss through modern emission standards, It the 10-16 years sited emission regulations have change significantly Guzzis engines have not.
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Funny story time.
In about 1994/95 Harley contacted with Weber-Marelli to produce their first production EFI system (single throttle body, speed density, open loop system very similar to the early Guzzi EFI systems).
When they unveiled it for the Harley engineers there were protests that it idled too smoothly and didn't sound like a Harley.
The Weber-Marelli engineers were asked to replicate the sound of a carbureted Harley. So they studied it and said that the narrow V-twin, short timing between ignition for each cylinder, and the small common manifold caused random patterns of turbulence that disrupted air:fuel charges in reach of the cylinders at different times. They said to replicate it they'd need a random pattern of poor idle fueling that just made no sense and that Harley customers would have to get used to a stable idle.
Honestly when I picked up my 1996 EFI RK (first year production) back in 96 it took some getting used to.
But every EFI Harley I've owned or ridden idled just fine.
So yes, just idiot owners mimicking what they think they have heard owners of poor idling carbureted Harleys do (which was likely to clear the carb and manifold one or two times before taking off from idle to prevent it from back firing through the carb and dieing (which would happen randomly with the carb models, see what the Weber-Marelli engineers discovered).
Yeah, I read that story somewhere too......I had several mildly built Shovelheads with carbs that had the lopey idle but never needed to rev them at stops lights to keep them running. It's called just turn up the idle slightly....I also built a pretty radical iron head Sportster with a 40 MM clamped on Dellorto carburetor. It idled rough but no need to constantly gas the throttle. But like Kev says, give it a slight test rev just before releasing the clutch...And on several occasions it backfired and blew the carb off the rubber spigot... Hard to look cool with the carb hanging by the cable and fuel line. The backfire was caused by the radial cam overlap....No stock Harley suffers from this unless it's in a poor state of tune... Guys on sport bikes often do the same thing, throttle jokey while stopped like some kid on a 2 stroke dirt bike..
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Yeah, I read that story somewhere too......I had several mildly built Shovelheads with carbs that had the lopey idle but never needed to rev them at stops lights to keep them running. It's called just turn up the idle slightly....I also built a pretty radical iron head Sportster with a 40 MM clamped on Dellorto carburetor. It idled rough but no need to constantly gas the throttle. But like Kev says, give it a slight test rev just before releasing the clutch...And on several occasions it backfired and blew the carb off the rubber spigot... Hard to look cool with the carb hanging by the cable and fuel line. The backfire was caused by the radial cam overlap....No stock Harley suffers from this unless it's in a poor state of tune... Guys on sport bikes often do the same thing, throttle jokey while stopped like some kid on a 2 stroke dirt bike..
Ha ha, yeah, but stock EVO (BT or Sportster) motors with the Keihin carb are prone to carb farts due to lean idle pilot screw adjustments and a main jet needle shape that has trouble with the transition from idle to midrange.
Sure, proper idle speed prevents stalling at idle (prevents the need to rev it), but a quick Rev before engaging the clutch was still a good idea to prevent stalling it should you get a carb fart as you let it out.
Way too many owners (and shops) blindly changed to larger idle and main jets, when most times all that was needed was a tweak of the pilot screw, and a shim under the needle or at most one step larger pilot jet and a new needle with thinner body around midrange.
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The vast majority of '70's and '80's Guzzis had too lean slides in them too meaning it was common for people to blip their throttle when pulling away from a standstill.
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The vast majority of '70's and '80's Guzzis had too lean slides in them too meaning it was common for people to blip their throttle when pulling away from a standstill.
Even though I've been on EFI bikes exclusively for about a decade, I think it became an ingrained habit long before that which I still do, one quick blip before pulling from a stop, or to alert someone I'm riding with that I'm going to shoot a gap.
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The engineers could make them run perfect if they didn't have to compromise drive ability for emissions standards
And that is it in a nutshell.
You have 60's design engine with 90's design or later fuel injection, selling on an international market with many different standards to meet.
So they go for the cheapest one setting fits nothing map but it pass's the test.
Doesn't mean it runs very well but it pass's.
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The vast majority of '70's and '80's Guzzis had too lean slides in them too meaning it was common for people to blip their throttle when pulling away from a standstill.
I blip the throttle just before the light changes - not because the engine needs it, but because it wakes up sleeping cagers and makes them look around and at the light - instead of at their passenger, their cell phone, their Happy Meal, or whatever...
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I blip the throttle just before the light changes - not because the engine needs it, but because it wakes up sleeping cagers and makes them look around and at the light - instead of at their passenger, their cell phone, their Happy Meal, or whatever...
Oh, be honest.. you just like the attention.. :whip2:
That South Park episode should be required watching for all loud pipe riders.