Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: n3303j on May 06, 2016, 10:40:22 PM
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So I'm back from winter in Florida and am in the process of turning my newly purchased '98 V11EV back to a stock motorcycle. It literally had 25 pounds of billet bits mounted on top of or in place of the stock parts. It now looks as it did in the show room.
I've probably got over two hundred thousand miles on motorcycles and nothing else I've driven handles quite like my V11.
The /2 BMW and the 850 T3 (110,000 miles shared) are neutral steering. Doesn't matter what speed you are driving at the steering is neutral. No matter where the bars are, it feels as if you could lock the throttle and let go of the bars and the bike would continue on course. Doesn't even matter what speed you are at, steering is almost effortless. Matter of fact steering input goes unnoticed.
On the V11 it feels almost as if there is too much trail. On very low speed turns the bars want to drop further into the turn and a conscious pressure is required to stop the bars from going right to the stop on low speed parking lot turns.
As speed increases this "flop over" tendency goes away. By the time I'm doing 50 the bike wants to go straight and requires a conscious push to initiate a turn. It also seems to require a continued pressure on the bars to maintain the turn radius.
My steering is not binding or loose. There are no bends in the fork tubes. The feel is the same left or right. So I'm assuming the front end and frame are true.
Is this the way all V11s handle or is there something strange with mine?
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Something. Ain't right , neck bearings maybe
Dusty
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I don't remember that on any of my late Tonti frames.. what tire (s) /size are on it? and how worn is the front?
stem bearings often didn't get much grease at the factory so those bearings (especially the lower) could be gone..
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"On very low speed turns the bars want to drop further into the turn and a conscious pressure is required to stop the bars from going right to the stop on low speed parking lot turns."
My 2004 Cali EVT does the same thing. Not sure of the speed it stops. Even at 50mph, I lean into a normal street, not twisties, curve and I feel that if I let go of the bars they will turn in more.
My neck bearings feel smooth and no notch feeling or loose (jacked bike up so wheel off the ground and check for issues) . I just figure that this is the way it rides. Runs down the freeway like a Caddie though. Smooth and sure steering, no handling issues.
My tires are 110/90-18 front and 160/70-17 rear. Felt the same with a 150/70-17 rear.
Tom
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I was switching between a 400 lb /5 and a Jackal , with the occasional ride on a Meriden Triumph , never noticed the Jackal or the '98 EV I used to maintain
for a friend behaving like this .
Dusty
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My EVT does none of that, although it can feel front heavy with the wrong tires. There's something not right. Steering head bearings notched or out of adjustment is the best thought, since it's the most common thing to generate those complaints. Then I'd check into wheel bearings and shocks.
Tire size, pattern, and pressure all play into it, too. Big fat tires look cool but I doubt are really functional. They feel more stable on the slab at hyperspeeds, but they're not designed to maneuver.
I run 100-profile tires front and rear on my short wheelbase tonti and it will get up and dance if you ask it nicely. I know I've seen my own headlights in the rearview -- It's like a little ballet dancer in the twisties. My EVT is a long wheel base tonti and last ran 120/140 profiles. It feels like a lumbering slug by comparison -- just too far to roll one way and the other in order to turn it, and it's longer. The bigger the difference between the front and rear tires, the more exaggerated the nose-drop feel, since the front tire is well into a turning bank while the rear tire is pushing straight while still thinking about it. The fun part is that it still scampers away from most other touring bikes, and once I've been on it for a while it feels 'right'. It's not until I ride the old one that I remember that these things CAN be tossed around a hairpin if they're set up right.
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How about a report on what tires are installed and what pressures are involved? A different tire or a few pounds of air could make a huge difference. We need to know what you have as a baseline to start discussion.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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"The bigger the difference between the front and rear tires, the more exaggerated the nose-drop feel, since the front tire is well into a turning bank while the rear tire is pushing straight while still thinking about it. The fun part is that it still scampers away from most other touring bikes, and once I've been on it for a while it feels 'right'."
This is like what I feel. The OP may have other problems as I don't know the specifics of the bike.
My Eldo/Ambo's run 110/90-18 front and 120/90-18 rear and I don't notice a "drop" in a curve/corner.
I have never ridden a bike like a GP bike, but maybe the feel is like a GP bike with the wide rear and narrow front. When I watch them in a RH turn, I could swear they are turning the front wheel left through the turn?
Tom
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Countersteering is my tip of the day. :cool:
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Tire pressure first, then the tires sizes.
A 160 rear is WAY too big, a 140 is recommended and makes a world of difference even on the later bikes that came with a 150.
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steering dampner is adjustable in that bike try loosing it up it will help with slow speed manuvers,also if you never riden that type of bike they do feel a little front heavy till you get used to it,i really hated my 02 cali until i can of got used to it
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My '98 EV was slower turning than my '76 LeMans but that was expected due to the longer wheelbase and fatter tires. Never had any of the issues the OP mentions. As for the steering damper I took it off early on. Never needed it and that includes a couple of track days on the EV. As for tire sizes I would go with the skinniest the manual recommends.
Pete
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I picked up a '98 EV last summer and it was doing the same thing. It had a new Sport Demon on the rear but the front (SD) was well worn and looked very triangled. Once you got into a turn it felt like it want to drop. I changed the front tire to BT-45 and all is much better. Will change out the rear this summer.
I must say it is one of the best deals you can get on a used Guzzi. With super bike bars I'm really enjoying the ride. Sport bike with floorboards!
Mac
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110/90-18 FRONT @ 34 PSI. 140/80-17. REAR @ 38 PSI
Both Metzler Lasertech.
Been doing this (riding and wrenching) long enough that I know binding, notchy or loose headsets as well as the effect of too much steering dampening.
Shock absorption and all are spot on. The bike rides as well as any machine I have owned or ridden. The problem is not one of a component on the way to failure.
Yes - I know all about counter steering (except on the Ural).
I had a BMW K100RS that had a bit of this heavy feel. On low <10 MPH turns it was necessary to hold the bars back from tightening the turn.
This is a new riding position for me. I'm used to riding with a lean and some body weight being carried on the bars. On the 850 T3 I scrapped the original bars and bought a set that gave me my customary forward lean. I'm sure this does something with the perceived steering forces.
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All I can say is my EV is surprisingly nice handling motorcycle. I have no idea what is wrong with this one based on the description.
I'd say we need to get some hands-on comparisons with this bike and and a "good one".
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Might be the neck bearings are too tight , or could just be the handle bar shape . Talked to a WG,er this morning who just purchased an '04 EV , he was bragging about its very low speed handling .
Dusty
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To the OP - while I am not a handling or set up guru by any stretch of anyones imagination, I did some research on my 01 Jackal (mostly on this site) and made some changes to improve the handling. Very minor changes. I scrapped the metzlers and put on some michellin pilot activs. Stock sizes-no fat tires. I run the front at 38 psi. The difference was extraordinary. I am not saying that this is the only tire to use as there are lots of really good tires out there- just not the metzlers. Is your bike from Florida? Are your rear shocks the standard length or have they been lowered? For some reason Floridians love to lower the rear of any bike. That messes up the handling. I raised the rear slightly on my bike and lowered the front end by raising the forks in the clamps. It lowered that big lump of an engine slightly and wow what a difference. Common knowledge says that doing this makes a bike a little more twitchy but not so on my Jackal. It is actually more stable on the freeway at 80 plus speeds and turns in much better now. Slow speed handling has greatly improved. After the changes I am really pleased with the handling on my Jackal. All it needs now is better suspension and a rider with more skill than I have. So keep looking and researching. The Cali's are good handling bikes. All the best to you.
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One point about thre steering head bearings. They is no real seal on top. Its common for them to rust. I did trick on mine from an old BMW mechanic. Drill the steering stem for a zirk fitting and fill the tube with grease. Make sure if and when you have the triple clamp out, you check for any openings into the frame tube or you will go through a case of grease trying to fill the stem.
Pete
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Ok, so everything mechanical is Kosher based on OP's comments. Did not see OP mention of shocks/ length, however. Easy experiment : slide fork tubes up the triple clamps .5 to 3/4 inch. Test ride . Maybe quickening the steering may help. Easy to go back if it doesnt.
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On my EVT, the fork travel is 5.5" if I remember right. I lowered my forks .5" and it just barely has enough room for the travel, about 1/8" to spare.
I lowered the front because I changed the shocks to 1" lower. And yes, the bike had the heavy front feel before any changes.
As mentioned, it's probably because of the wide rear tire. My old bikes do not have that feel.
Tom
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Trust me , this isn't a geometry problem , reread the OP . Raising the forks .5 in makes less than .2% change in geometry .
Dusty
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Hi folks,
I'm on my second '98 V11EV, and both of them handled like a sport bike (until you start dragging stuff). I'm running the same size tires as the OP (Bridgestone BT-45s though), but I use 33psi front and 36 psi rear. The only time the V11 felt weird was after I'd been riding my KLR for a while. The first mile or so on the V11 took a little getting used to after that. But they are fine handling bikes in my experience, and totally predictable in the twisties. If the tires are in good shape, something else must be amiss.
Cheers!
Craig
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At the risk of offending Tom and the fired news talking head.. Sum Ting Wong.
:smiley:
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One point about thre steering head bearings. They is no real seal on top. Its common for them to rust. I did trick on mine from an old BMW mechanic. Drill the steering stem for a zirk fitting and fill the tube with grease. Make sure if and when you have the triple clamp out, you check for any openings into the frame tube or you will go through a case of grease trying to fill the stem.
Pete
I've been doing this for years on all my bikes. Fill the cavity until you see grease oozing out, wipe off the excess. Repeat as necessary.
BTW, my '98 handles like a dream, very stable & predictable in all situations.
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Chuck, no problem. Just saying that my'04 has that feel. I figure that it's normal with the wide tire. My '56 Triumph I think did the same thing with a 5.00 rear and a 3.00 front. But if it is a problem, I'll be reading for the answer and fix mine as well. The '04 cruises like a Caddie :cool:
Tom
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Might be the neck bearings are too tight , or could just be the handle bar shape . Talked to a WG,er this morning who just purchased an '04 EV , he was bragging about its very low speed handling .
Dusty
. Very impressed you might even say!! Now I understand how police Motos can ride so slowly and turn at the same time without falling over.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/cqUDva/image.jpg) (http://ibb.co/cqUDva)
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Going from memory of a long time ago, but I think the Lasertech was the OEM tire on my '04 EV, and they stunk. I replaced them with Metzler 880 (or would that have been the Metzler ME88?) front and back and it was a big upgrade in front handling. At least that's what I temember.
Steve.
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Might be the neck bearings are too tight ,
Dusty
what he said, combined with crummy wrong size tires.. don't buy Metzlers
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I put 80000 on a 98 and 80000 so far on a 2001 EV. You must do the grease job to the neck. ad to what was said above, wrap a strip of soft leather around the bottom of the neck and zip tie it on to prevent massive leakage. the slightest bit too tight on the bearing and It feels strange.
the 110 front is the best a 120 slows the steering down. I might try a 100 next just because I will only need to stock that size if it works for the V7 and EV. I've tried every Brand of tire out there except the active. the sport demons are great, I just put the Shinko's on the EV and really like them. (730) I think. I prefer 36 front and 40 rear.
I've dropped the forks as low as 3/4" and every where in between. I'm back to about 1mm down now. if somebody lowered it or the rear end reverse that mistake.
get an experienced Guzzi guy to ride it. odds are he will know exactly what it is.
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Just checking, but any chance have extra short shocks been installed on it? That would make a mess of the rake and trail.
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Measured the rake and trail and found them to be within specifications. Started figuring "It must be me".
Started thinking most seriously about my riding position. Everything else I ride (or have ridden) leans me forward on to the bars. I am always carrying a portion of my upper body weight on my bars. Steering effort just adds a minor percentage more to the weight my arms are already bearing.
The EV11V with its solo seat and oddly shaped bars is the first bike I have where the only pressure on my arms is from steering effort. It makes steering effort far more apparent as it is the only load on my arms.
As an experiment I wandered about 4 inches back on the seat (uncomfortable) and rode around a bunch with the added pressure on my arms. Bike feels rather normal now.
Maneuverability was never a part of my problem as the bike seems to happily lay over in any direction I countersteer her. It was all a matter of feel. Bike is only 300 miles new to me.
I guess it's just a matter of getting used to the upright riding position or scrapping the tall bars and returning to my forward lean posture. Not sure which route I'll follow yet.
To the poster who suggested Michelin Pilot Actif; I am a great fan of that tire (and the previous Macadam) and used them on any bike that I had and they had sizes to fit. Always pleased with the handling and service life they supplied. My set of Pilot Actif for this bike should be here in my hands for mounting tomorrow. Thanks AMT for your great service.
Alls well that ends well. 2,000 miles with the son-in-law next week should be plenty of time to become familiar with the new "Blue Goose"
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To the OP - while I am not a handling or set up guru by any stretch of anyones imagination, I did some research on my 01 Jackal (mostly on this site) and made some changes to improve the handling. Very minor changes. I scrapped the metzlers and put on some michellin pilot activs. Stock sizes-no fat tires. I run the front at 38 psi. The difference was extraordinary. I am not saying that this is the only tire to use as there are lots of really good tires out there- just not the metzlers. Is your bike from Florida? Are your rear shocks the standard length or have they been lowered? For some reason Floridians love to lower the rear of any bike. That messes up the handling. I raised the rear slightly on my bike and lowered the front end by raising the forks in the clamps. It lowered that big lump of an engine slightly and wow what a difference. Common knowledge says that doing this makes a bike a little more twitchy but not so on my Jackal. It is actually more stable on the freeway at 80 plus speeds and turns in much better now. Slow speed handling has greatly improved. After the changes I am really pleased with the handling on my Jackal. All it needs now is better suspension and a rider with more skill than I have. So keep looking and researching. The Cali's are good handling bikes. All the best to you.
+1 Based on spending a good few months trying to get my old EV to handle as I wanted it to.
Dropping the fork yokes/triple tree was probably the single biggest improvement.
Good luck
Steve
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I just changed to a skinnier front tire with a different profile. It handles different now. For your purposes I'll just say 'different' without assigning 'better' or 'worse' to it. For my purposes I'm calling it a keeper.
If the riding position seems to be your problem, try changing the handlebar. If you have the 7/8 bars you have a lot of choices. If 30mm bars then fewer choices, but still at least the three that I have on the back porch. With the 7/8 bar you can use plumber's tape to fasten it to a wooden deck (or wall) and then use pipe cheaters to change the angles of the bar to something you like better.
Stock guzzi bars are between about 30" and 33" total spread. They have a number of rise and reach options and of course the wrist angles are important. As long as all the stuff fits on the bars they are long enough for any 2-wheel guzzi. That means if you can fit the brake pump, switch pod and grip on each side, you've got enough bar reach to control the bike. I can generally cut 1.5" - 2" off most bars and still fit the goodies.
So with some bending and a tubing cutter, you can build custom bars out of whatever's handy. If you kink a bend or break chrome, keep working. Once you've go the shape down you can probably go to your local UJM store and buy a ready-made bar that's very close to what you made.
Another idea for handlebars is the swan neck/clip-on/modular type stuff option. I'm not sure how that works with the EV headlight setup, but I've seen some of those bar kits that were infinitely adjustable at all angles. Too spendy for my wallet, but there it is.
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I was never a fan of the stock bars on my EV. Shortly after I bought it put Superbike (K&N's name) bars on it. Besides making me a lean forward a bit which I prefer, it also got my butt off the computer hump.
Pete
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My EV has the faster, fat bar. I've found three variations on the theme that I rotate through to find the best one for a given bike. Right now I've got a bit of a 'tiller arm' on the trike because it needs to be *steered* and the leverage helps. But the same frame in 2-wheel dress was really happy with a lower, straighter bar that I bent the wrist angle on for a more comfortable lean on my rheumy wrists and shortened by about 1.25" on each side.
Handlebars are so cheap that it doesn't make sense to not have one that fits.
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(http://thumb.ibb.co/eYF08v/010.jpg) (http://ibb.co/eYF08v)
These bars came off an early 70s 650 Yamaha twin. Just a slight forward lean and very comfortable. I think you can find a similar bend with some Superbike bars. Feels like an ol flattracker!
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Michelin Pilot Actif showed up yesterday morning and got mounted up front.
The Metzler Lasertec that came with the bike had plenty of thread depth but was 7 years old (rear is a bit less than 4). I won't ride any serious highway with tires over 5 years of age.
So I took the bike and new tire out for a 200 mile shakedown before next week's Ohio run.
It is a completely different animal. I have never seen a tire make such a difference. No more "heavy" front end. The steering is light and neutral. Think turn and she rolls into a turn. Push harder and she obediently gets real close to the road on one side. Slow speed maneuverability is precision without any surprises.
She now handles like a bigger version of my 850T3 with super brakes. What a wonderful addition to my stable.
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That's good news. Glad that you are happy with the bike. Tires do make a diff, don't they?
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glad you got it sorted out :bike-037:
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You neglected to mention that it had tires from the stone age :rolleyes:
Dusty
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You neglected to mention that it had tires from the stone age :rolleyes:
Dusty
New one on me.
I don't trust 7 year old tires not to delaminate with a bunch of hot highway running.
I don't trust 7 year old rubber to stick or wear as well as new.
NOW: I don't trust old tires to give me a correct representation of how a motorcycle will handle with "fresh" tires.
Learning something every day and having a grand time while doing it.
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New one on me.
I don't trust 7 year old tires not to delaminate with a bunch of hot highway running.
I don't trust 7 year old rubber to stick or wear as well as new.
NOW: I don't trust old tires to give me a correct representation of how a motorcycle will handle with "fresh" tires.
Learning something every day and having a grand time while doing it.
Yeah , learning is fun .
Dusty