Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: MGPilot on May 16, 2016, 01:41:39 PM
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A front fork seal has been leaking on my 2015 Norge; was purchased new in March of 2016; it now has 736 miles on it. I think it should be fixed under warranty. The shop expects Moto Guzzi to say, "Just live with it." I've ridden on and off since 1978; Honda/BMW's/now Moto Guzzi. Never had this issue before and certainly don't expect it with a new bike. Last image shows the fluid where it has soaked into the garage floor.
So, am I being unreasonable to expect this to be corrected under warranty?
(http://thumb.ibb.co/dBm41F/MG_Norge_Fork1.jpg) (http://ibb.co/dBm41F)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/ktmRFa/MG_Norge_Fork2.jpg) (http://ibb.co/ktmRFa)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/eaSYva/MG_Norge_Fork3.jpg) (http://ibb.co/eaSYva)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/dyQLaa/MG_Norge_Fork4.jpg) (http://ibb.co/dyQLaa)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/irscMF/MG_Norge_Fork5.jpg) (http://ibb.co/irscMF)
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No .
Dusty
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2-months old bike with less than a thou on the clock ?
That should be a no-brainer warranty repair.
Should be....
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I don't understand why a shop would say that Guzzi will probably expect you to just live with it. It's a new bike and it's under warranty. Just be firm and tell them that you want it repaired under the warranty.
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Can't imagine a dealer would want you to live with that issue, even if Guzzi HQ wouldn't reimburse them, which with a bumper to bumper warranty, they should get reimbursed no matter what.
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Have you seriously POed the dealer? <shrug> That's the only scenario that makes sense to me..
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I'd be leery of a selling dealer not standing behind a brand-new bike with no obvious signs of owner abuse...he/she is throwing away a lot of potential future business by alienating you right from the start...is there another dealer within a reasonable distance? Maybe it's time to investigate...
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Fork seal? Yes. You're being unreasonable. Fork seals are a consumable, just like tyres. If you get a puncture after 736 miles are going to claim warranty? Guzzi can no more prevent shit from the road buggering up your fork seals than they can from punctures. Suck it up.
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Fork seal? Yes. You're being unreasonable. Fork seals are a consumable, just like tyres. If you get a puncture after 736 miles are going to claim warranty? Guzzi can no more prevent shit from the road buggering up your fork seals than they can from punctures. Suck it up.
If I had a ding from a rock on my fork tube, I'd totally understand that position.
If not, then my first thought would be faulty seal or faulty seal install at the factory.
And, i'd pursue it as a warranty claim.
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Is a fork seal a wear part and exempt from warranty? Yes.
Can a seal be damaged by bad installation or a marred fork tube, just as it could be by road debris? Yes.
Should the dealer offer a compromise as a goodwill gesture, and check for possible factory-level damage in the process? If they are wise, but they are under no obligation (other than goodwill) to do so.
When I worked at a dealership, we did such work in most similar cases; we often asked the customer to pay for the parts or the labor, but not both.
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For $5-10, I'd try one of those fork seal cleaners:
http://sealmate.net/
Rich
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Don't even buy a sealmate. Make one for a plastic container lid.
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Fork seal? Yes. You're being unreasonable. Fork seals are a consumable, just like tyres. If you get a puncture after 736 miles are going to claim warranty? Guzzi can no more prevent shit from the road buggering up your fork seals than they can from punctures. Suck it up.
Nah, that's like saying an engine oil leak shouldn't be covered.
There are degrees of consumables and it's unreasonable for a fork seal to be leaking in this short a time frame/mileage.
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Rubbish. A fork seal is a consumable. You can't compare it to an engine oil leak. :violent1:
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Rubbish. A fork seal is a consumable. You can't compare it to an engine oil leak. :violent1:
Seriously? In 2 months and 736 miles? I think not...
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Seriously? In 2 months and 736 miles? I think not...
Agree with PJPR01
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Before this turns into another kerfuffle (one a day is adequate :laugh:) , is there any chance that the dealer might attempt the seal cleaning trick ? Takes about 2 minutes if one must cut the tool , and costs nothing . Just sayin' :grin:
Dusty
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What ITsec said. Mileage is pretty low but in the same vein, would you try to warranty a flat tire? Too many things can cause the seal to leak (dead bugs etc.) beyond the control of the manufacture.
One would think the dealer would do something to help out but that would be on a case by case basis.
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Before this turns into another kerfuffle (one a day is adequate :laugh:) , is there any chance that the dealer might attempt the seal cleaning trick ? Takes about 2 minutes if one must cut the tool , and costs nothing . Just sayin' :grin:
Dusty
:1: have yet to not have this work on a reasonably new seal. usually just some dirt lodged . I cut mine out of plastic soda bottles.
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:1: have yet to not have this work on a reasonably new seal. usually just some dirt lodged . I cut mine out of plastic soda bottles.
Reminds me of the passage in Zen and the Art where Pirsig is cutting handlebar shims from an aluminum can for his friend's beemer . The friend insists Pirsig obtain and use the official BMW part for the application :rolleyes: :laugh:
Dusty
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most definitely it should be covered.
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MG Pilot,
I have serviced one contraption or another for most of my life and if you had bought that from any organization I have worked for and had that issue as you describe it would be fixed with a smile, no cost to you. It is very bad form to crap all over customers with excuses and laying blame on the manufacturer. You should insist that it be repaired. These bikes are expensive. The customer deserves respect and the benefit of the doubt.
Go tell them to suck it up and fix it. Piaggio is not your problem.
Hunter
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Well, I also have a '15 Norge, and it has about 850 miles on it. If this happened to me, I'd be bummed. I'd express my dismay to the dealer, regardless of whether it's a consumable part. This sort of thing kinda falls into customer satisfaction territory IMO. I am very confident the shop where I bought mine would make something like this right. I'd even be willing to go halves if they were courteous about it. Good luck!
:violent1:
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Rubbish. A fork seal is a consumable. You can't compare it to an engine oil leak. :violent1:
Such black and white characterization is nonsense.
Every part of the bike has a limited life span and could be argued a consumable.
Tires and brakes are among the most obvious because their life spans area so relatively short.
But even with them, absent a sign of damage from use/exposure/abuse then such an unreasonably early failure should be covered by a warranty (unless specifically excluded).
Absent obvious damage or abuse seals should be very long lived components.
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Fork seals are not consumables. That's like saying piston rings are consumables. In Ontario leaking fork seals would prevent a bike from being certified. I had a truck that had extended warranty and Dodge replaced leaking shocks on a 5 year old truck. I realize tires and brake pads are consumables but if they FAILED prematurely I would still expect them to be covered.
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Fork seals are not consumables. That's like saying piston rings are consumables. In Ontario leaking fork seals would prevent a bike from being certified. I had a truck that had extended warranty and Dodge replaced leaking shocks on a 5 year old truck. I realize tires and brake pads are consumables but if they FAILED prematurely I would still expect them to be covered.
I get what you're saying, but tires, fork seals and brakes are all exposed to the outside world and are subject to unpredictable causes of wear - dirt, rock chips, nails, and so on. Just as with tires and brake pads (and as I said earlier) there is a presumption of responsibility for such items. If the dealer can demonstrate that the failure is due to a warrantee-able cause (i.e. mis-installation, flawed tube) then a warranty claim should be made. If it is due to an unlucky encounter with grit or gunk, then it falls in the 'nail in a tire' category. I do believe it's in the dealer's best interests to offer a compromise as goodwill, and to pursue a warranty claim if the evidence on replacement supports that.
It may not be a win-win, but it doesn't have to be lose-lose.
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MG Pilot, I know this is absolutely not the point you were making, but given the amount of knowledge you would have given your experience and also the amount of advice available here, do you reckon maybe this time just do it yourself ? That's not to be negative to you, but while it's leaking you could get some on your tyre or brake pads and it just looks shithouse. My Norge hasn't done as much as some here , but @ 94,000 k the seals are perfect and I expect others would have had as good or better run. Huzo.
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I agree that it should be covered -- with a gaiter. As far as the warranty issue, if I ran the shop I'd fix it on general principles, but I'd have it come in during a slack time to do it. I might rethink that if the owner copped an attitude. If I was the owner I wouldn't be worrying about it. There is probably a chunk of crud allowing the leak and the seal cleaner of choice would probably cure it.
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When one of my seals 0m my 1200 Sport started leaking last year, I ordered a SEAL MATE tool. THAT FIXED THE PROBLEM!!!.. Started leaking several thousand miles later and it did the trick again!
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FWIW, that fork started to show dark tracks or rings from the first ride. I thought it might settle in over time, but it's only gotten worse. So whatever is causing it has nothing to do with rocks or road damage.
In defense of the dealer, their response was to my first call about the issue. The photos (I hope) make it clear that I'm not just whining about a faint trace of oil on the fork.
The bike is scheduled for its 600 mile service on May 24th, so they can see it then....or sooner if they want me to bring it in for inspection.
What will I do if MG doesn't want to cover it?
Options range from paying the dealer & trying to get a discount, doing it myself....to just selling my bikes and dropping a company that won't stand behind its products. I could have a lot of fun with a Morgan or Caterham.
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If the fork seal has puked enough to puddle on the garage floor even if wiping the seal cures the leak, shouldn't the fork oil level be topped off? Dealer should do it. If it were me, I'ld look at it as a chance to get to know my bike and do it myself. Get the dealer to fork over seal and oil and spend an afternoon in the garage.
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FWIW, that fork started to show dark tracks or rings from the first ride. I thought it might settle in over time, but it's only gotten worse. So whatever is causing it has nothing to do with rocks or road damage.
In defense of the dealer, their response was to my first call about the issue. The photos (I hope) make it clear that I'm not just whining about a faint trace of oil on the fork.
The bike is scheduled for its 600 mile service on May 24th, so they can see it then....or sooner if they want me to bring it in for inspection.
What will I do if MG doesn't want to cover it?
Options range from paying the dealer & trying to get a discount, doing it myself....to just selling my bikes and dropping a company that won't stand behind its products. I could have a lot of fun with a Morgan or Caterham.
I shudder to think of your reaction to an actual problem.
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I shudder to think of your reaction to an actual problem.
You're welcome to shudder all you want.
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If the fork seal has puked enough to puddle on the garage floor even if wiping the seal cures the leak, shouldn't the fork oil level be topped off? Dealer should do it. If it were me, I'ld look at it as a chance to get to know my bike and do it myself. Get the dealer to fork over seal and oil and spend an afternoon in the garage.
That's the one
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One reason why There has been some wariness on the part of the factory to cover stuff last ke fork seals is because a lot of claims were coming in for blown seals, particularly on Stelvios if I recall correctly, that were in fact just the result of the assembly grease used on the seals creating 'Rings' on the fork leg. In fact there was a service bulletin about it a few years ago.
If it's leaving a pool under the bike? That's a different matter!
Yes fork seals are consumables and not officially covered by warranty but if it was on a bike I'd sold I'd just fix it. It's not the hardest job in t'world.
Pete
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This is how Honda handles the problem.
So I'm at Dirty Harry's in Daytona on Saturday, March 5th. As I'm leaving, I bend down to tie my shoe. That's when I notice my right fork seal is leaking, badly. I cleaned it up, and figured I'd deal with it when I got back. I knew I had had the bike about a year, but wasn't really concerned. Turns out March 5 was my in service date, and that's when the warranty expired.
I took the bike back to my selling dealer on Tuesday, March 8, and explained my situation to them. They were quite helpful, and I heard from Honda corporate two days later. They said they were going to take care of it under warranty, and that they were going to do both forks-fresh fluid and seals in both.
After the repair, the bike rides substantially better. Much cushier, but still handles great. Kudos to Honda, and my dealer, South County Honda.
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MGPilot, if your's is the new Norge I saw on the floor at Moto International when I took my new 2014 Norge there for its first service, it looked like one of the fork seals was leaking, and it had not even been sold or ridden yet!
If that one is your's, then I think it is a warranty issue.
PS: If you got your new Norge for $9,990, then you got a heck of a deal! I paid $1,000 more for mine, and it was one year older out of the gate. If I were in your shoes, I would request warranty coverage, citing the leaking fork seal when on the showroom floor, but I would not force the issue...
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"Options range from paying the dealer & trying to get a discount, doing it myself....to just selling my bikes and dropping a company that won't stand behind its products."
Sell it, the bike is junk.
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It is a warranty item. This is not even close to the same type of issue as a flat tire.
A tire goes flat for a variety of reason but mostly a road hazard like a nail, hitting something etc.
If the bead on a tire started leaking within a short time, you bet it's covered under warranty. If a tire leaks air because of sideway cracks within the warranty period, that too is covered. A tire that leaks air without being subjected to a road hazard impact would likewise be covered under warranty. That is unless you don't ask.
A fork seal isn't subjected to nails, getting hit by rocks or other road hazards, any of that must get past the dust cover.
The length of time MG expects a fork seal should last is evidenced by the replacement schedule. Just because something is a consumable doesn't mean from day one it is on you to replace it if it fails.
Telling you to fix it is easy but not everyone has a garage. If the owner doesn't have space where they can work on it, they rely on the dealer. In any case...
Failure is not the same as consumption. Understanding that is key to this issue.
Make the warranty claim, MG will fix it.
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Update: The dealer (Moto International) has seen the photos. Based on them, they anticipate that MG will cover the issue under warranty. Even though they are scheduling service near the end of June, they've offered to fit the repair in a month early.
Will have to see what MG says, but things are looking better.
Note: I understand that my comment about dumping the bikes seemed extreme. If I didn't like Moto Guzzi's, I certainly wouldn't have bought two of them. But I take factory support seriously. After a couple of clear instances of lack of factory support of design issues in my last Porsche, I sold it and after owning five 911's over the years, am unlikely to own another. In my opinion, if the factory won't stand behind what they make (within reasonable limits), I simply won't support them. But, that's my choice and it may eliminate reasonable alternatives. I don't care.
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Seems this has worked out , it is amazing how being reasonable usually ends in good results :bow:
Dusty
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Seems this has worked out , it is amazing how being reasonable usually ends in good results :bow:
Dusty
[/quote Now now Dusty, as Paul Mc Cartney said "Let it Be"
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Seems this has worked out , it is amazing how being reasonable usually ends in good results :bow:
Dusty
[/quote Now now Dusty, as Paul Mc Cartney said "Let it Be"
So you are advocating hopping up and down while yelling nonsensical angry jibber jabber at the dealer ? :shocked:
Dusty
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MGPilot, if your's is the new Norge I saw on the floor at Moto International when I took my new 2014 Norge there for its first service, it looked like one of the fork seals was leaking, and it had not even been sold or ridden yet!
If that one is your's, then I think it is a warranty issue.
PS: If you got your new Norge for $9,990, then you got a heck of a deal! I paid $1,000 more for mine, and it was one year older out of the gate. If I were in your shoes, I would request warranty coverage, citing the leaking fork seal when on the showroom floor, but I would not force the issue...
Thanks Jeff. It was a white one (they had several in both colors) that had been on the floor for a bit. I really wanted to ride the V7 longer before buying a larger bike. But the $9,990 was just too good. I've enjoyed the bike. And Moto International has been an honest and informed dealer to work with.
As I noted, their caution about the fork seals possibly not being covered was based on our conversations before they saw the pictures. I also understand from Pete's and other posts that seals are traditionally consider consumable/wear items. I don't disagree. But this seemed unusual and unrelated to wear & tear.
Will see how it all plays out.
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^ Yep. That is the one. However, what a beautiful bike! Congrats on such an outstanding bike at such a great price!
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Don't even worry about the seals. Go for replacement of the scored fork tubes. New seals will come with them. I bet a dollar the seals are in upside down.
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^^^
Strange that after being fixed once before the sale they'd leak again so soon. Prob a good idea to have the tubes checked. Sure MI will do that though when they do the seals.
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What's the latest MGP ? Just curious .
Dusty
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if this thing was leaking in the showroom, I'd have questions about the dealer. They should've checked it and fixed it under warranty before it was ever sold.
Why would they just wipe off the oil and sell it knowing the customer would not be happy?
That's self defeating and only compounds the problem.
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Update:
Took the Norge in for its 600 mile service. Even though the fork repair was scheduled for a week later, M.I. took the time to do it while it was there, saving me another trip.
Fork tube itself looked ok. Seems as if the spring rolled off the lower seal for some reason. The seal itself didn't seem to have a tear, etc.
The replacement didn't take too long. Certainly helped that:
1. Jason (mechanic) knew what he was doing
2. Had a lift, tools and parts, that
3. He knew what he was doing.
All seems ok.
Interesting that he made the point that the valves should be adjusted as pairs (simultaneously) or the difference in pressure can throw off the adjustment if you try to do one at a time.
Learn something every day.
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Congratulations :thumb: So all is is well ?
Dusty
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Interesting that he made the point that the valves should be adjusted as pairs (simultaneously) or the difference in pressure can throw off the adjustment if you try to do one at a time.
Learn something every day.
Yeah that' sounds like good sense. When I do the clearances on my '07 ( 2 V ), I notice that the difference between a tight fit and sliding fit on the feeler can be just a gentle finger pressure on the rocker, they obviously flex to a degree.
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Glad it worked out well and your approach, I'm sure, had a lot to do with it. I'm with you, if the dealer/factory won't take care of a small problem on a brand new (fill in the blank), then I've lost confidence in them for anything else and time to move on to another brand.
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Interesting that he made the point that the valves should be adjusted as pairs (simultaneously) or the difference in pressure can throw off the adjustment if you try to do one at a time.
Yeah, I brought that up in the Lario rehab thread. I hadn't seen it mentioned on here at that time. It's harder than it sounds, if you are anal about it and want both to be *perfect*. :smiley:
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Yeah, I brought that up in the Lario rehab thread. I hadn't seen it mentioned on here at that time. It's harder than it sounds, if you are anal about it and want both to be *perfect*. :smiley:
I'm sure that adjusting both valves in a pair simultaneously is old news to many. It was just news to me.
Makes excellent sense. I think all my manually adjusted engines were 2-valve and the 4-valve engines have been hydraulic.
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Sorry, I've never seen the sense in it? One end of the rocker has a single point of contact on the cam or tappet or pushrod or whatever and then you have two adjusters at the other end.
Adjust one, remove feeler gauge, it now has clearance, adjust the other, the first one can have absolutely no influence on the clearance of the first.
As for difference due to 'Feel'? We all have our preferences but as long as the gauge can be pulled out with little resistance and then reinserted without fuss it's close enough. If you're going to get all super-anal about silly stuff like this you'd be obliged to always ensure the engine was exactly the same temperature to deal with the expansion differentials if the valves were set at 5*C ambient or 30*C ambient!
If it's really so worrisome just use one size bigger and one size smaller as a 'Go'-'No Go' gauge!
Pete
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Have you tried it, Pete? :smiley: Whatever clearance the first is set to affects the second when you adjust it unless you use two feelers. <shrug> Well, that's been my Centauro and Lario experience anyway.. obviously you might have a *little* more experience than me.. :wink:
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Yes I have and my conclusion remains the same, it is a huge, overthinking, wank! :laugh:
Pete