Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Vince in Milwaukee on May 27, 2016, 03:22:04 AM
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I'm in the market for a newer, used bike to replace my K75 and am hoping to tap the collective wisdom of the BMW riders we have on here. Concerns are final drive failures, assisted brakes, xmissions, etc... Researching things on the internet is a bit overwhelming as, like on here, people only tend to post the bad stuff. Please school me on things to look for and what I should avoid. Thanks.
Vince
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Vince,
I bought a 1996 R1100RT five years ago from a guy who only used it to commute. It had 40,000 miles on it. I now have over 150,000 on it and have only had to replace the HES. [I recommend GSAddict to rebuild yours.]
I have never lubed a spline, replaced the clutch or done any of the other "maintenance" BMW nuts seem to be so fond of. I change the oil, adjust the valves when I hear them, change the tires and brake pads and ride it.
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You'll want to avoid the R1150RT's with the servo ABS brakes. They're a PITA to bleed and the ABS pumps are well known for going bad. I had a 2002 model and the ABS pump went bad (thankfully, still within the warranty period) but when I would brake on a road with an irregular surface, it was a real joy to discover that the brakes were NOT working until the tires hit a flat surface again. BMW had tons of complaints about this but never did anything to remedy the problem. Some owners removed the ABS from the motorcycle because you couldn't turn it off with a switch. BMW finally gave up and went to a much better ABS system and dumped the servos. I think that they made these models from 2002-2006. I sold mine after around six months after it gave me butt-pucker one time too many while braking. I told the guy that bought it why I was selling it but he said that he would probably remove the ABS system. You can even find info on YouTube re. how to remove these brakes from your BMW.
The models that were made prior (R1100RT) and the R1200RT from 2007-forward would be a better choice due to this problem.
I presently have a 2009 R1200RT so I didn't give up on BMW motorcycles.
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The 1150 RT was also known for input shaft/spline breakdowns. One of the reasons that I sold mine.
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Well, here we go.
First off, BMW has long made motorcycles that perform very well. I really like their handling. Their suspension systems have been very good. Also, the power characteristics of the Boxers are just what I like. Not nearly the charisma of a VTwin but nice, low end torque.
All late-model BMW's don't break down. You will find many people, as previous posters, who put many trouble-free miles on BMW's.
I've had many of them. Still have a couple. Some of BMW models produced in the last 20 years have issues.
The servo brakes. For those who don't know BMW's, this was their effort to bring power brakes to the already-excellent Brembo system on the bikes. BMW has a knack for trying to answer questions that nobody is asking. The system employed a servo system to provide the power brake boost.
I currently know several people riding servo bikes. Some really like them. You can skid a front wheel with your little finger, no doubt.
I am not sure about the RT models but the GS models incorporated the servo system on the 2003 bikes until the introduction of the 1200 series in 2005-2006. I think the RT also carried this on the 1150RT until the 1200 was introduced. There may have been a few at the end of the 1150 run that did not have the servo.
If you have them, you must know that if the electrical current is down, the booster doesn't work. Rolling the bike around with the key off means you don't have much braking. Yes, they can be a pain to bleed but, once you know the drill, it is easier.
Much of the problems of the BMW braking systems center on the ABS pump. This is very true for even the 1200 series. The carbon brushes in the pump motors will deteriorate with age. This does not relate to usage levels but rather with time passage. Once the brushes crumble, the ABS is dead.
Dealers like to charge you about $2000 for a new ABS pump. Your solace is often an assurance from the BMW dealer that "they all do it."
Module Master is a company that can repair these pumps for a nominal cost ($150-200) and give you an extended warranty on the rebuilt pumps.
http://www.yelp.com/biz/module-master-moscow
Back to the original poster. 1100 or 1150 RT.
I don't like the servo brakes but, if you get one, maintain them and hope for the best. The earlier 1100 doesn't have these brakes but the 5-speed transmission of the 1100 is rough as a cob. My 4-speed '78 Shovelhead Harley shifts better!
The 6-speed of the 1150 is better.
There are many issues other than the brakes on these bikes. The final drive failures are a major problem that has affected many of the riders I know with the 1100 and 1150 bikes. My own 1150 GS had its FD crap out on me.
The later 1200 bikes came with a new "see-through" final drive that we all thought would solve this issue. In fact, the 1200's were worse than the earlier bikes about final drive problems! On top of that, the 1200's brought us the fussy BMW CANBUS electrical system. Again, the 1200's also had the same ABS pump problems as well as fuel pump controller problems and many other things.
Anyway, I've chopped my way through the BMW jungle for years dealing with such issues. I'll stop delving more. To be fair, I must say that the Moto Guzzi Stelvio that I've owned has had almost as severe problems.
If you really like the 1100-1150 RT, go for it. Do like I and others did, carry a spare FD bearing and seal in your tail/tank bag. They can be repaired on the road.
Think positively. You may never ever have an issue with these bikes.
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I still have my Beemer (RT without the fairing) that I bought new. For the reasons discussed by others, I elected to go with a non-ABS model. I've always had other bikes to keep it company, so the mileage isn't high -- 45,000 miles, but they have been largely trouble-free. If you buy one, make sure the plastic quick connects in the fuel line have been replaced with metal ones; if not do it right away.
This bike is a serious "do it all" motorcycle, and I find the size to be "just right". So, after 14 years, while numerous other bikes have come and gone, my trusty boxer remains.
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I have owned my 2004 R1150RT since it was one year old, I stupidly attempted to bleed the brakes and screwed the ABS pump, not the bike's fault just the idiot that owns it. Private 3rd party warranty covered replacement.
Other wise I have never had a problem been from Alaska to the middle of Mexico on it.
My only complaint and it's a big one in my book, its gutless. I replace a 1996 Concourse with the BMW and the Kawi was a much better bike in my opinion.
Good points - the beemer has fantastic brakes and a very taught suspension. It cruises effortlessly at way above the speed limit all day long and it has been comfortable for my wife to ride on with me.
As far as I know the twin plug RT is very dependable, I have never met anyone that had a rea drive failure or any of the other blanket beefs about BMW.
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Rider reports on BMW problems are not just because people are being mean to BMW.
You can read volumes of material about these issues. Again, even though it's hard for me to believe, some folks experience no problems.
I used to regularly attend the National Rallies for the BMW Motorcycle Owners Association. I always went to the Tech sessions and they were full of people with final drive and other failures. Paul Glaves, former Tech Guru for the BMWMOA, can attest to the issues with BMW's.
Motorcycle Consumer News (MCN) did a cover story in about '08 "BMW - A Tarnished Roundel," that extensively covered the reliability problems of BMW.
A good friend entered the Iron Butt race with a BMW LT. His FD failed on the trip and he lost hos entry fee and had to buy a new FD. he came home, bought a new 1200GS and entered the Iron Butt again the next time around and the darn GS FD crapped out on him! lol
At the time, about '08, our local BMW riding group of 12 riders did an internal poll and 9 of the 12 had experience FD failures! One guy, with an '07 GS, was on his 4th FD (but we only counted him once)!
While touring through Germany on factory provided BMW's about a year ago, I became friendly with our hot-dog German guide. He was riding a BMW-provided 800 but I asked him about his own personal bike. He pulled me near and quietly said "a Honda." He walked over to the new water-cooled GS I was riding and tapped his fingers on the final drive and shook his head. He came back to me a whispered that BMW were known in Germany to have problems with that part of the bike and other things.
It is not a fantasy or made-up. The amazing thing to me is that many of the BMW people keep riding them. My friend with the 4th FD on his GS finally got rid of it and bought, you got it, another BMW, an 800. He went on to face recalls on the 800 switchgear and a fuel tank replacement due to plastic cracking.
Again, the problems go WAYY beyond final drives too.
Anyway, I've beat this horse for a long time. Guzzi has major problems too.
Try the BMW. You may luck out and have no problems. I didn't put many miles on it, maybe 25k, but my '07 R1200S was one of my favorite bikes of all time and I did not have any troubles with it.
From what I've heard, the latest boxers are apparently not having FD troubles. They are having switchgear issues but, hopefully, that will be worked out. I could possibly be back on a new 1200GS someday, maybe, perhaps.
A sampling on BMW:
http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=375488
http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/mcn-final-drive-article-what-timing.371471/
http://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?28365-Final-Drive-Failures
http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/k1200lt/32886-final-drive-failure-registry.html
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I've owned a 2000 r1100 RS model for the past 16 years. Similar to the RT, but with an abbreviated fairing, that still offers decent protection. I cannot speak to the Servo brake situation, as mine has regular ABS. Never had an issue with the ABS, except an occasion ABS light due to low battery voltage. More an annoyance than a problem. At 78,000 miles, I have not experienced an FD problems, but I do change the FD fluid very often, when the engine oil is changed. At about 30k, and just a few months past warranty, the clutch began to slip at speed, or when on a long ascent. Turned out to be bad clutch Rod O rings, causing oil to get on the disc. It is a big job to pep lace a clutch on these bikes. BMW paid for parts, I paid labor. My purchasing dealer made that happen.
No other real issues, but if you do get one of these oil heads, have the Cam Chain Tensioner, (left side) replaced with the upgrade part. It is supposed to prevent one of the internal plastic parts from self destructing.
Oh, and factory seats suck, at least on the RS model. ANY, aftermarket is better, I have a Sargent.
The older RT's, 97 -01 appear to be a bargain in the northeast area, as they can be picked up for 3-5 thousand, with relatively low miles.
John
1983 Moto Guzzi Le Mans III
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I have a 95 R1100rs for reference. Great Bike.
As to the RT. Great deals to have right now in the Chicago Area. If an R1100 buy a 98 or later with the updated transmission. If willing to put up with servo brakes buy a 2004 R1150 with the dual plugs to avoid the surging.
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I have had my 04 R1150RT for a couple of years now. All of the above is true and that lead me to tear into the bike front front to back. I now have a new clutch and my input shaft is perfect. I went thru the fuel system and then I went thru the drive shaft and final drive. Changed the seals and change the oil frequently. The ABS brakes take a good hour to bleed(9 bleeders) and that includes the clutch. I do like the Whizzy brakes. And yes if the light comes on you do not have much for brakes. It reminds me of a 3D puzzle when you work on it. Take at least three or four things off to get to the thing you want. It really is a nice ride and with the right accessories a real all day and all weather ride. Do not buy this bike if you do not do all your own maintenance. Quoted work from any BMW dealer should scare away just about anyone that can't turn a wrench. Mike
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I just this week traded my '04 R1150RT on a new R1200R. Not because the RT was bad, just because I wanted a change, something lighter.
I put many happy kilometers on it, with nary a problem. I did have to replace the final drive seal last year because it was oozing slightly. And the RID conked out, which I think is pretty common. I managed to find a used one on eBay, but they're becoming very scarce, if that's an issue for you. They're are no longer available new. I replaced it only to get a better price for it. It shows gear position, engine temp, fuel level and clock. It's a bit of a pain to check the oil level on this thing; the sight glass gets pretty grimy on the road and is hard to clean off because of where it is under the fairing.
As for the servo-assisted brakes, I had a love-hate relationship with them. Never had any technical problems with them; I just didn't like the servo assist. I thought it was silly, and I don't think I ever got completely used to it. And I quickly learned to turn on the ignition before backing it out of the garage and down the slight hill in my driveway. Not much brake without the assist :shocked:
But on the road, it was wonderful, with good fuel range; I could do 450 km on a tank. Comfy and fast enough for me. Last fall I ran a stretch of the Trans Canada Hwy in New Brunswick (Grand Falls to Fredericton) at 165 km/h 'just because'. Effortless (and highly illegal). Of course, at that speed, gas range suffers a bit. Some nice touches, like the built-in lifter handle to put it up on the centre stand. Mine had the OEM 'comfort' seat, and was just about the only motorcycle seat I've never modified or replaced. 1,200 km days were easy on that thing, although my usual was more like 800.
The R1200R is about 100 lbs lighter and a lot faster. But I love the lines of the R1150RT; much nicer looking than the new ones.
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But I love the lines of the R1150RT; much nicer looking than the new ones.
I agree with that.
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Why on earth would you want a R1100RT/1150Rt when there are so many great examples of used Norge 1200 available? You have two very good dealers not far from you, why ride an appliance?
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Why on earth would you want a R1100RT/1150Rt when there are so many great examples of used Norge 1200 available? You have two very good dealers not far from you, why ride an appliance?
Liked my Norge way more than the 1150RT :thumb: :thumb:
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Been riding BMW's since 1987. Over 125,000 miles on them and never had a breakdown. I'll tell you this. I am much more concerned with my Stelvio eating it's Tappets then I am my BMW losing the final drive.
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Been riding BMW's since 1987. Over 125,000 miles on them and never had a breakdown. I'll tell you this. I am much more concerned with my Stelvio eating it's Tappets then I am my BMW losing the final drive.
That is a fair statement!
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Why on earth would you want a R1100RT/1150Rt when there are so many great examples of used Norge 1200 available? You have two very good dealers not far from you, why ride an appliance?
The boxers are not appliances.
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Been riding BMW's since 1987. Over 125,000 miles on them and never had a breakdown. I'll tell you this. I am much more concerned with my Stelvio eating it's Tappets then I am my BMW losing the final drive.
Perhaps you would feel much more at comfort if you had the roller tappet fix done, what are you waiting for?
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The boxers are not appliances.
No? They sure sound like one! :laugh:
I just jacking around fellas. I know many BMWs are great, loved workhorses by their riders. If they do it for you, cool, I'm just glad I can get my hands around a throttle from Lake Como.
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This is an interesting topic because I considered buying an R1100/1150/1200RT last year. Looked into it a lot.
I heard a lot and read a lot about Beemer issues and there were two that stuck. Final drives and ABS, depending on year.
Some sources swear that you can get your Beemer, shim the driveline properly and change the fluid regularly and get way over 100k from the FD. Others curse and swear that ALL of them fail at some point. I think the truth is somewhere in between. It did seem consistent that owners who just rode the bike without paying any attention to the FD were more likely to have a catastrophic failure. Note that during a few years of production BMW claimed the FD to be a sealed and not servicable unit, ie, no fluid changes, so 'neglecting' it was factory policy. Now days many folks seem to regularly change the FD oil and some even add drain and fill plugs to the suspect FDs.
ABS units, as far as I could tell, were a crap shoot. Good aftermarket sources for them.
One note that may or may not be of interest. The Iron Butt crowd used to be huge Beemer followers and then started migrating away after the FD fiasco. This last IBR there were something like 25 of them entered (out of 70 entrants) and NONE had a final drive issue. About half were on GS models, The one newer LT (not sure if it was brand new or not) crapped out due to electrical issues, not a FD issue (IIRC that was a husband wife team riding two up on the bike). The winner was on an old Honda ST1300 and his fuel pump quit 200yd from the finish as he coasted to the finish line (IIRC it was his 3rd IBR on that bike). There were far fewer mechanical issues than I would have expected. Some were sad stories. The Honda NT700 rider was 500mi from finish when his alternator quit working (midnight on a Sunday). Turns out it was a wire that broke. 10min fix if he could have figured it out in a Walmart parking lot after little sleep.
But, in the end I decided to keep riding my old T5. It does exactly what I want with little drama. Just did a 1000mile weekend run with no issues at all. Yep, it still drips some oil but not enough to worry about.
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No? They sure sound like one! :laugh:
I just jacking around fellas. I know many BMWs are great, loved workhorses by their riders. If they do it for you, cool, I'm just glad I can get my hands around a throttle from Lake Como.
Ideally, have both!
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No? They sure sound like one! :laugh:
I just jacking around fellas. I know many BMWs are great, loved workhorses by their riders. If they do it for you, cool, I'm just glad I can get my hands around a throttle from Lake Como.
well said, Chad my man.. :smiley: :1:
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You have two very good dealers not far from you, why ride an appliance?
My grandmother had a Norge. She kept milk in it.
(http://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=OIP.M0410593b58ab68794f1b0e0e68332a38H0&w=300&h=225&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0&r=0)
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I'd only be repeating myself re: R1150's so I'll just confirm
the prob's are real.
Except:
The 6 speed is NOT better than the 5. The 6 speed's input
shaft doesn't go all the way through the Clutch Centre - it
flogs out and then takes the input shaft out too.
The twinn plugs still surge.
Maurie.
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I'd only be repeating myself re: R1150's so I'll just confirm
the prob's are real.
Except:
The 6 speed is NOT better than the 5. The 6 speed's input
shaft doesn't go all the way through the Clutch Centre - it
flogs out and then takes the input shaft out too.
The twinn plugs still surge.
Maurie.
My experience: I've owned both the 5 speed (R1100R) and my current 6 speed. You'd be nuts to prefer the 5. Can't say about the twin plug bikes, but my single spark has never surged.
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Why on earth would you want a R1100RT/1150Rt when there are so many great examples of used Norge 1200 available? You have two very good dealers not far from you, why ride an appliance?
Agreed, when younger I thought an R1150RS was my dream bike but it did not meet expectations (sucked.) The horrible seat, telelever, and a pig of motor, plus the worries of an $1100 ABS failure.
Love my 2V Norge, what a Beemer should have been.
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BMW has wisely abandoned the telelever, which they once trumpeted as superior to a telescoping fork, whatever...
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BMW has wisely abandoned the telelever, which they once trumpeted as superior to a telescoping fork, whatever...
[/quote
Only on certain models , the K series bikes use a Hossack fork , the touring boxers still use the telelever . Only the 800's , the S model , and the S1000 bikes use tubes .
Dusty
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BMW has wisely abandoned the telelever, which they once trumpeted as superior to a telescoping fork, whatever...
Totally disagree. The Telelever was, and is, a superior technology for street bikes (for racing, maybe not). Separating suspension/braking forces from steering forces yields real world advantages. By design, Telelever reduces brake dive by about 90% -- that means you have much needed suspension travel when hard on the brakes to keep your tires in contact with the road. The small penalty in feedback is not significant on the street. The latest computerized semi-active/adaptive suspension systems may achieve a similar result, but Telelever does it without computer complexity.
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I own a 2012 R1200R. Actual displacement is 1170, not much larger than the R1150. I purchased it new and in 25k+ miles I have had only two problems. First problem was my fault, after market oil filler cap I purchased failed. Second problem, the rear shock failed at 24k. I have only one complaint, the throttle is really touchy at low speeds. Without judicious and careful use of the throttle, it is either on or off.
Rode it to Abilene, TX last year. Grandson's HS graduation. 5k round trip. Stock seat. No problems. Averaged 50+ mpg @ 70+ mph.
I had always wanted a BMW boxer. I knew about the servo brake problem, a friend had his go out exiting the freeway at 70+. I knew about the rear drive problem. BMW corrected those issues. Stopped using servo assisted brakes and punched a hole in the rear drive to help cool it.
On the R1200R forum I belong to, the biggest complaint is failure of the fuel sensor strip. The fuel strip reads the amount of fuel in the tank so the computer can display it on the dash. BMW corrected that by doing away with the gas gauge display and increased the warranty for the fuel strip for those bikes that have a fuel gauge to 12 years. Mine has not failed.
BMW changed over to a normal fork front end when they added liquid cooling. There was not enough room for the telelever and the radiator.
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Just to be clear the question relates to the R1100/1150 RTs. To my knowledge neither model experienced out of the norm FD failures., That arrived with the first 1200 models. Also AFAIK most of the shaft failures seem to have occurred on the R1150R models rather than the RTs. And, no, I am not a BMW apologist/ Guzzis have more character. I am an old boxer guy and BMW lost it for me in 1995 when I bought my 1100RS. Great bike but an appliance as some would put it. Never had a problem with it and no surging either. And for the current asking prices a heck of a bargain. Around 3K for a clean one with low miles and farkles? MMM... time for a sewing machine.
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I have a 2000 R1100RT that I bought new, as well as a 1994 K75RT and 1995 K75. I will continue to maintain that the K75 design is the best and most robust that BMW ever made, or likely ever will.
That said, I am certainly glad that I have an 1100 rather than the 1150. A close friend, who commutes big miles (108 per day, every work day of the year; he uses a Ural when it snows) bought an R1150RT new (2002) and had plenty of trouble with it, from final drive to the stupid power brakes. He's a pretty good mechanic and gave up on it at about 82K miles (barely broken in for him).
The R1100RT is a fantastic long distance bike. With the right windshield for you, you can have a quiet, warm, high-speed environment or nearly the feeling of a naked bike on a hot day (with the shield down). It will achieve gas mileage in the high 40s on a trip and has a very large tank (BMW says 6.6; others say 7.1, but I know I've put more than 6.6 gallons in it when it was pretty low), so range is phenomenal.
Love that bike.
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Slight veer to the left, in true Internet forum fashion, to clear up some misconceptions stated here.
Of the modern liquid-cooled boxers, the R and RS (essentially same bike +/- fairing and other cosmetics) have standard USD forks. The GS variants and the RT still have telelever front ends.
I've recently ridden both variations of the liquid-cooled boxers, and can't feel much diff in the suspensions. The dynamic ESA option can make the front end of a non-telelever bike feel pretty much identical to its telelever counterpart. The latest dynamic suspensions on these things have to felt to be appreciated. Really quite amazing.
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Don't want to hijack the thread, but do any of these concerns apply to later 2004/2005 R1200 models? From time to time (when my knees seize up or ache after a longer ride) I consider buying an R1200CL. They can be had up here in Canada quite reasonable with asking prices of $5000-$6000 CDN for lower mileage units.
With regard to R1150RT I had occasion to test one of the first police models in Canada. Was one of the worst M/C's I've ridden. It was so bad I had BMW Canada pick it up and go over it. It was lurtchy, with virtually no flywheel effect when shifting . If order to shift smoothly you had rip through the gears revving the piss out of it, which one thing you can't do as a police officer without attracting a lot of attention to yourself. When we got it back it was marginally better but still not suitable for city policing. Don't get me wrong I AM NOT A HD GUY by any stretch of the imagination. I recommended that we go with the F650 which we didn't get but the local parks police did. Fantastic bike for municipal policing.
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Thanks for the replies everyone. This topic has really seemed to generate a lot of interest. It seems that if I do buy one of these bikes, I will either get a reliable, trouble free machine or a PIA that will require time and $. I'm hoping to find a one owner bike with all the maintenance records and not too far away (as someone said - Chicago). I've also considered looking into one of the newer K bikes, but need to ponder what's been discussed here first. Thanks!
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Oh yeah, someone mentioned the Norge. That is also on my list, but then we've got to go 2V or 4V, right?