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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dofin on June 01, 2016, 10:41:15 AM
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First and foremost I want to be sure the all understand, I am NOT assigning blame or trying to blame ANYONE for ANYTHING. I so appreciate the help everyone has given here so, Nuff said.
Speaking of oil problems, after completely draining the oil, replacing oil filter, "measuring" and adding 2 liters of oil, running the engine a few minutes, letting it set for a bit, checked the oil on the wheels straight up and dip stick screwed out, as Guzzi directs in the manual I found the dip stick is grossly out of wack for the hash mark indications of full oil indication!!!! Checking the oil level on the dip stick shows the oil level at about 1/2 inch above the hash marks!!!
I put about 1k miles on the bike and checked the oil both on the wheels and on the (add-on) center stand a few times with the same indication, about 1/2 inch above the hash marks. This is crazy and I don't know what folks who don't do their own oil changes think when they check the oil level when the dealer does the service??
A big engine safety concern. I found this bike was down to 1 liter (measured with oil filter oil) at oil change even though the dip stick said it was close to the top of the hash marks!! I was concerned to say the least. New owners of used machines should be concerned, your inexperience with the machine could cause major problems through no fault of your own. So there you go, wonder if other owners have had the same experience?
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Long time owners of Guzzis come to realize that Italian specs are a suggestion, that each model has their own idea of proper oil level (often to be run BELOW the "full" line or excessive oil may be carried to the breathers at highway speeds), and it's best to learn your machine and not worry about it.
Now my 2013 Stone has had (since I think the first oil change) a SUMP EXTENDER on it to increase the oil capacity, sooooo I'm probably a bad one to talk to.
I have this because:
1. Earlier models (before the debut of the 1TB motor in 2013) would sometimes mysteriously use too much oil in a single outing.
2. The additional capacity let's me run it at 1/2 the dipstick, but with a good quart or so more oil than factory, and that gives me warm and fuzzies.
My notes on the matter are rather vague:
The file on my phone says that ORIGINAL capacity was ~2L and the spacer adds ~1L so current is ~3L
BUT the handwritten notes on my garage bulletin board and in the service folder say:
With the sump spacer I'm adding ABOUT 2.9 quarts / 2.75L
So 1.75L sounds about right to me stock.
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I haven't had that experience changing oil in services at the dealer I work for. I don't measure engine oil, I put in a lt and run it, then top it up.
You may have a stick that is wrong, and yes, it does happen. There was a bullitan about bad sticks in 05 or 06.
Just go to dealer & compare.
If no oil is entering airbox from blow-by, remark stick.
You could also ask the previous owners also.
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Sump aint over filled, oil levels has stayed the same over last about 1K miles and no oil in the air box, also I have been at higher RPMs +7K. Cant seem to find a red line in my User Book??? not marked on my tac.
I read 2000 cc/122.05 cu oil and oil filter change on page 192 in my Guzzi Use+Maintenance book Ed. 01_03/2014. It's a V7 stone 2015...
I figure I have the wrong dip stick in my bike??? I did remark the stick. new guys need to check it out.
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If your manual says 2 liters of oil, then that's something new.
Previous bikes were recommended to have 1780cc, just under 1.8 liters. (1.9 US Quarts).
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The V7 Stone/Special/Racer owner's manual and shop manuals (from 2013-??) do indeed say 2000cc / 122.05 cu in. for engine oil capacity.
Dofin, how closely did you check your airbox? Did you peer in with a flashlight looking at the very bottom and/or swipe the bottom with a rag?
I ask because the breather oil system condenses in small compartments attached to the airbox and MOST of the oil is recovered and routed back to the sump. In 10k miles I have had no real perceptible loss as measured on the dipstick, but when I changed my air clear recently the bottom of the airbox was most certainly damp with oil.
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So, the 1TB owners manuals say 2L.
Interesting, since there wasn't a change to the block or sump from the 2TB models...
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So, the 1TB owners manuals say 2L.
Interesting, since there wasn't a change to the block or sump from the 2TB models...
I'll take your word on that, but there WERE changes to the pistons and rings I believe.
And it does seem the new ones are less likely to use oil.
Maybe Guzzi KNEW that and increased the level?
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My 2013 Stone maintained a constant oil level throughout the 10000 km (6214 mi) periods between oil changes. When I changed the oil, I drained the oil hot but let the crankcase continue to drain overnight. I always added exactly 2 1-L bottles (with a new filter). After running the engine to fill the filter, the oil came up to the top of the hashed area of the dipstick, whether I measured it hot or cold, after sitting overnight or just after shutting off the engine.
I treat my 2016 Stone exactly the same way, but the oil level is always significantly (about 1/2 cm) above the hashed area of the dipstick. The motor runs well and the oil level stays constant, so I'm not fretting about it. I'm not aware of anything different between the engines of the 2013 and 2016 Stones. I never compared the dipsticks, so I don't know if they're different, or if the manufacturing tolerance for where the hashed area is might be sloppy. However, I always used Castrol 10W-60 oil in the '13 and now I'm using the exact MG-specified oil, eni i-Ride MotoGP 10W-60, in the '16. I've never measured the actual contents of the 1-L bottles of either oil, so it's possible that the eni bottles are slightly overfilled. Before the next oil change, I'll check this possibility.
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When you drained the oil, did you empty BOTH compartments in the sump, front and rear? There are two drain plugs.
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ideally you need to check the oil after you have run the engine , you need to fill the oil filter up before you check the level
both of mine, pour in exactly 2litres of oil , start engine for 30 seconds. after few mins check the oil and bang on max
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My 2003 Breva manual states 1.8lits. Level to be checked with the bike warm, level and with the dipstick screwed in.
I think that someone with one of the later smallblocks said that the level is now checked with the dipstick unscrewed.
When I first got my new dipstick after the "send it in to orbit" problem that some of the early models had with their dipstick I did a check and it was exact with the 1.8lts. It has never lost it's oil as some did, and it has never sent it all (so far) in to the airbox.
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The sump on the later v7 is deeper and holds that extra .2litre
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The sump on the later v7 is deeper and holds that extra .2litre
Is Dofin's bike one that perhaps is to be measured with the dipstick unscrewed. If it is, then the level would be about right.
He does not seem to mention just how he is measuring it. Also, the bike must be level. It will read overfull if it is not, as the filling hole is on the side that the sidestand is on, and the level appears to rise appreciably if measured while on the sidestand.
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Is Dofin's bike one that perhaps is to be measured with the dipstick unscrewed. If it is, then the level would be about right.
He does not seem to mention just how he is measuring it. Also, the bike must be level. It will read overfull if it is not, as the filling hole is on the side that the sidestand is on, and the level appears to rise appreciably if measured while on the sidestand.
He's checking it unscrewed. I say screw it in with the correct measurement (2L) and you'll be about right on the dipstick. Keep doing it that way from now on. You're good to go.
K
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Hi, all this info is interesting and great history.
Cant screw it in to check it cause it would be even further UP the dip stick?? I guess you could mark it up there but then you have to unscrew it, wipe the stick, screw it back in then back out again?? easier to unscrew, wipe, poke it in, check, then screw it back in.
oh yea I removed both drain plugs, its a pain cause I had to remove the evaporation canister to do the back one, and let it and the oil filter area drain for an hour or so while I measured the 2 liters with a graduated container and did other stuff. I used ENI oil and the bottles were close enough to 1 liter using the graduated container. I do check on level ground vertical on the wheels (not side stand) and on the center stand. I might have exaggerated the 1/2 inch closer to 3/8ths of an inch from the top of the hash marks. I took a file and lightly ruffed up the smooth part of the stick so the oil will stick a bit so it is easier to read.
Nope, I didnt do a wipe test in the airbox. Sounds like something thats good to do from time to time?
""Speaking of oil problems, after completely draining the oil, replacing oil filter, "measuring" and adding 2 liters of oil, running the engine a few minutes, letting it set for a bit, checked the oil on the wheels straight up and dip stick screwed out, as Guzzi directs in the manual I found the dip stick is grossly out of wack for the hash mark indications of full oil indication!!!! Checking the oil level on the dip stick shows the oil level at about 1/2 inch above the hash marks!!!
I put about 1k miles on the bike and checked the oil both on the wheels and on the (add-on) center stand a few times with the same indication, about 1/2 inch above the hash marks. This is crazy and I don't know what folks who don't do their own oil changes think when they check the oil level when the dealer does the service??""
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I have never worried... Just put 2l in and after you have run the engine and let it cool check the oil and mark the dipstick
Aslong as you have measures 2l it will be fine
Those of us without a main stand marking the dipstick when just filled with correct amount makes life much easier
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In all my years of motor vehicle ownership I don't think that I've ever come across a more simple issue being turned into such a fuss. A dipstick is by its very name a device for measuring by the act of dipping. While most vehicle manufacturers seem to have grasped this idea the designers at Guzzi seem to have failed in their task.
I tried to measure the oil in my V7 last night and with the dipstick not screwed in and the bike level I achieved a range of levels from full to nearly empty. The dipstick, when rested on the hole is able to sit at various angles all of which affect the measured oil level. Obviously too difficult to design a dipstick that sits neatly on top of the hole.
So I've shoved some oil in and now have to hope it isn't too much. I might as well have saved my time and had an extra beer!
I will use the 'drain the oil and refill and mark the dipstick' technique when the oil needs changing but seriously, what a pain. Or maybe I'm being too melodramatic.
After all it's not like the oil level is really important in an air cooled bike :)
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When you next change the oil and know you have 2l in
Check the level on the side stand with dipstick fully screwed in and mark the full level
Problem solved 😎
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After all it's not like the oil level is really important in an air cooled bike :)
Weeeelll. Some may want to disagree. A problem may arise in the smallblocks because they run hot, they don't have a superfluity of oil in their sump and some of the (especially) 2TB models for some reason known only to themselves were wont to chuck their oil "out" to god knows where. If they were overfilled this can exacerbate the problem. If they were underfilled they were like any engine running hot that gets starved of oil. :sad:
So, it becomes one to have the correct amount in and keep it that way.
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While most vehicle manufacturers seem to have grasped this idea the designers at Guzzi seem to have failed in their task.
I tried to measure the oil in my V7 last night and with the dipstick not screwed in and the bike level I achieved a range of levels from full to nearly empty. The dipstick, when rested on the hole is able to sit at various angles all of which affect the measured oil level. Obviously too difficult to design a dipstick that sits neatly on top of the hole.
I would suggest it's an error to allow the stick to sit at an angle. You can keep it unscrewed, but held seated against the top of the threads for consistency.
That said, don't over think it, if the oil is on the dipstick, in the hash area, you're fine.
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When you next change the oil and know you have 2l in
Check the level on the side stand with dipstick fully screwed in and mark the full level
Problem solved 😎
My theory is that, when the engineers at MG decided to increase the recommended oil fill from 1800 ml to 2000 ml, they had a pile of dipsticks in the warehouse that they didn't want to throw away, so they came up with the practical idea of telling the customer to check the level with the dipstick screwed out instead of screwed in, to compensate for the higher oil level in the crankcase. Problem solved.
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You read the 'Gentleman' thread? Well this makes me want to use the word that rhymes with 'Duck'!
Three things.
1.) It has been over filled due to insufficient drainage or overfilling.
2.) It was never broken in properly and the rings are glazed.
3.) It is owned by a paranoid maniac who wants to find something wrong so he can have a big sook!
My suggestion?
Make sure there is oil roughly in the middle of the stick.
Find a road up into the mountains if you have any nearby and flog the clacker off it.
After this change the air filter and wipe out the airbox.
Repeat until it becomes oiltight.
Pete
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maybe I'm being too melodramatic.
Maybe?
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http://wildguzzi.com/forum/Smileys/default/Beating_A_Dead_Horse_by_livius.gif Okay, thanks for the input. Pretty much finished here.
I was hoping that some newbies (like me) to the V7 might find my experience useful. Got this sorted now, easily done and satisfied. Again thanks for the info. I can move on. http://wildguzzi.com/forum/Smileys/default/bow.gif
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And just a tip. No need for two men and five small boys to help check oil level with the bike on the side stand if you have a center stand , really.
Put the thing on the center stand, throw a block of wood or whatever under the front tire to make it level and just check the oil level by yourself.
Takes all of ten seconds. Getting people to help old the bike while oil level is checked. That isn't ease of maintenance.
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I still screw mine in to check the level (on center stand). Screwed in, the level is in the middle, and I still get a teaspoon of oil in the airbox. I figure it will eventually find its happy place.
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Sump aint over filled, oil levels has stayed the same over last about 1K miles and no oil in the air box, also I have been at higher RPMs +7K. Cant seem to find a red line in my User Book??? not marked on my tac.
Redline is somewhere between 7,500-8,000k. FI will cut out at that time to prevent over-revving. Happened to me more than once.
Ken
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Hey, thanks for the RPM info!! Havent got that hard into just a few times some over 7K. I will write it in my book and maybe try it out someday. Thanks again.
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Gotta chime in here. I was just about to change my oil today. Went for a ride, checked the level. Oil reads well above the hash marks. So do I put less oil in then I drain out and replace? I do get oil in the air box as well. Thanks
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I am reading this thread and then out of curiosity go to the garage and check air filter box. What I found? Oil! I remember that we (me and my service man) put in exactly 2 liter of oil. What is odd is that my service man actually worked in Guzzi factory in the past (apparently this was mandatory to get status of official Guzzi Service shop) and also he was confused with oil capacity and dip stick markings. :shocked: But he went by the service manual and put in 2 liters.
I also remember that there was something weird with final drive (cardan) oil capacity (again, service manual vs. actual volume). But there you luckily have this screw (hole) up to which oil must be...
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Guys... help!
I have 2400 km on my V7, but today it was my first longer ride on a highway. Went to visit my aunt. I was constantly driving 140-150 km/h and also tested full throttle a little bit to see what this little bike can do. I just had a weird feeling. Then, at home, in my garage I found oil on both sides of the engine. I think oil came from upper bolt which I don't know what is for. See the pictures. Tomorrow I will remove 2dl of oil... 2 liters is apparently waaay to much.
Hopefully no damage as been made.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/kqZMGF/IMG_20160929_194605.jpg) (http://ibb.co/kqZMGF)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/fU0vbF/IMG_20160929_194651.jpg) (http://ibb.co/fU0vbF)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/jqTsOv/IMG_20160929_194731.jpg) (http://ibb.co/jqTsOv)
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Have to laugh as sometimes I think i have some sort of compulsive disorder...maybe I do. Drain the oil, change the filter, add 1.5L, and go from there. Guessing full is about 1.8L on my V7ii.
Waxi, I think that's your transmission breather, so don't panic. Shop probably put a little too much in there. Just clean it up and ride.
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Wow, shouldn't be surprised this is still going? Always seems to be questions about oil, tires etc. But here is an update on my V7 that started this topic.
4K miles on the oil change, Total 10K as of last week. There has been no noticeable change in oil level (2ltr at oil/filter change and as I posted in the original post I remarked the dip stick to show actual level with 2 ltr). There has been some very minor misting of oil in the bottom of the air box but no oiling of the air filter and clean plugs. Reminds me of the car engines of the 60s and older, always a little oil coming from the valve cover breathers.
Wont be long and it will be time to do the oil change on all the pieces parts of the engine and recheck the valves. Curious to see if there will be any need to adjust. I did have to adjust the valves at 6K.
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So I have to much oil also in gearbox? Nice, just nice. :cry:
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Have been putting exactly 2l in every v7 that has come through the workshop and never had a problem
All small blocks put air in the air box right back to the mk1 v35 and v50
Breather is a crap design and always has been until the latest v7ii with the spine breather
The air box breather is pulling oil vapour laden fumes out of the crank case and condensing them hence the oil in the air box
Dip stick is a bad design as is the lack of main stand... so why worry if it reads high? Ensure you have exactly 2l of oil in the sump and mark your own max level on the dipstick with it screwed in and on the sidestand..
If the condensation collection function of the air box bothers you remove the entire breather system and sump return.... plug the sump return with a suitable bolt and crush washer. Block all the now unused oil connections on the air box.
Get 2 x 1m lengths of 8mm fuel pipe and connect each one to the valve cover breather out lets.. run the two pipes carefully trough the bike to the rear mud guard. Try to loop the pipe up high under the tank to force any condensing oil back.
My v7 engine has run like this for 5000k miles and not lost a drop of oil
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Ok, but this oil apparently came from gearbox...
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I personally would not worry about a bit of oil coming from the gearbox vent. At least you have enough in. :thumb:
If you want to hear woe wait till the dealer puts 150 ml in the box instead of the diff. :cry:
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That is a bad thing indeed!! One reason to do your oil servicing yourself!! At the VERY LEAST Check the oil level at the inspection holes BEFORE you leave the dealer parking area! Engine and Gears don't like to run without proper lubrication.
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With the transmission, you only know the capacity, and can't really check it. So you drain and add the spec capacity. Of course, it is not totally dry when you go to re-fill, so if you put in the spec qty, you may be slightly over-filled. I had the same issue after an extended highway run at 70-80 mph. Some oil came out of the transmission breather. Cleaned it up and all ok now. Next time, I will put slightly less than the spec qty in it.
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Ha. That was interesting. I have called my service and tell them about dipstick and this gearbox issue. We were talking 10 minutes and then I said that most probably the Guzzi did a mistake and write wrong oil capacities. That really pissed him off and he hanged the phone! Great.
I'll do it myself, despite warranty.
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The recommendations I've had is to measure the amount of oil removed and then replace the amount removed. This is my first experience changing V7 transmission lubrication. Gonna take all the recommendations and see how they work out.
I plan to do like I did the engine oil. Check the location of the oil at the fill location before draining, drain and check amount. Refill with amount drained and then check if the level is the same at the fill location. I plan on doing the same with the final drive as well but I have experience with Honda, BMWs rear drives So they arent as much of a question.
It is so odd that the downloadable Guzzi Maintenance manual for the V7 classic doesn't have the oil change description for the Transmission?? http://www.guzzitek.org/gb/ma_us_uk/750/V7Classic_022009_Atelier(GB).pdf