Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Farmer Dan on June 02, 2016, 06:09:17 PM
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Auto parts guy tried to talk me into the NGK 6637 plug and explained all the advantages of the new iridium plugs. I don't think any of them will by seen by the Eldo motor so I stuck with the normal NGK 7333. What do you guys think? anyone try them?
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I have a pair in the main side of my Norge and they have given me no problems. Here's what they look like after running two seasons. I didn't replace them.
(http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm265/Atavar4/241402FE-0CDE-4EA5-8AFA-BF1A4A4D47D6_zpsjyo9om0s.jpg)
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Put them in my V11 Lemans and noticed a good difference. Tried them in my older Lario and no difference. I feel they foul easier so if I were using carbs I wouldn't go there, FI try them you may feel a better pull and quicker response. My buddy noticed it in both his V11's also. Supposedly a bigger kernel. Worth the experiment I feel from my (our) experience.
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Run them in my Jeep Grand Cherokee and love them. They are also NGK, which I think makes as good a plug as anyone. Some vehicles will run on anything, but some show a BIG difference from 1 plug to another. Heat range has a lot to do with it, so it's always good to pull a plug after a few thousand miles to inspect it for the correct heat range for your driving. Good luck. :boozing:
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Have only tried them on fuel injection. Giving E3's a shot on my V65C.
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I've had the Denso iridium in my W650 for a long time - seems like they last about 3 times what a normal plug would - but they're 3 times the price!
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Hawk running with carbs, they work great. Norge has them too, no issues.
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Snake oil, kinda.. <shrug> Yeah, they last longer, but what's the point when standard plugs are dirt cheap? Now, if it's a $50 airplane plug and you need 8 of em for your four cylinder engine.. that's a different matter.
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Iridium plugs are mainly just designed to last longer. They only real advantage is that the smaller electrodes can generate a spark more easily than a fat electrode, so they are less likely to foul.
If you see an improvement, then your butt dyno is probably broken, or the old plugs were simply bad.
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Thanks for the input guys. Sounds like the only advantage is that the local shop has these in stock. Guess I'll save me a 20 mile trip and give them a try.
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Iridium plugs are mainly just designed to last longer. They only real advantage is that the smaller electrodes can generate a spark more easily than a fat electrode, so they are less likely to foul.
If you see an improvement, then your butt dyno is probably broken, or the old plugs were simply bad.
OMG, I've got to disagree with the "Improvement" statement. My Jeep definitely idled better than it was new with the original plugs. I'm not saying everyone will benefit. Some people may notice a negative effect. There are way too many variables to make a statement that you will notice an improvement. Some will and some won't. There is no way of telling until you try. Also, most plug manufacturers produce these plugs and some will work better in certain applications than others, another variable. You will never know until you try. :boozing:
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I ran NGK standard plugs in my PC800, carburated, got average 47 mpg for 10s of thousands of miles. Switched to NGK iridium and after more than 3K miles I am getting an average of 53 mpg. I tow a trailer with my 2 stroke bikes on it, average mileage was 35mpg with standard NGK after switch last month towed to Deals Gap with an average of 38 mpg!! No butt dyno here it got better mileage after the change!
Did a oil and plug change to iridium on my V7 havent had a chance to do a good milage check. I did do a short trip for camping on the V7 with standard NGK plugs, with my camping gear, 600 mile round trip and mostly 70 mph or less I got pretty much the same as the PC 47-50 mpg.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/gg6eJv/IMG_20160420_143407_Medium.jpg) (http://ibb.co/gg6eJv)
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No rational explanation. VL800 cruiser did much better - still new looking plugs at 30,000 miles. Mileage improved. Previous plugs were normal NGK and looked fine. Ford 4 cylinder Ranger pickup. Replaced with 8 Iridium many years ago. Pain in rear to get to 4 of those. I pull one every once and a while. Might just be showing wear, and I have no idea when they went in!!! Truck always starts perfectly and runs perfectly, although the check engine light comes on randomly. 1991 Ranger with 240,000 miles.
So I just use them whenever I replace plugs. Seem to work better. Can't see why!
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It's kind of like saying all gas is created equally and it's snake oil to run premium or ethanol free. It's still gas right? It takes gas and a spark. Change one of those factors and sometimes you will notice something. Iridium a have a more intense (dramatic) spark. Some will, some won't, so what... but if you've never tried it, well...
Why do they dual plug heads?
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Aren't today's electronic ignition systems operating with higher voltage coils than something from 70's?
Not to mention they generally have more active timing control.
These might be factors that help prevent fouling and allow for longer life or perceived differences when used in some (seemingly more modern) applications.
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Aren't today's electronic ignition systems operating with higher voltage coils than something from 70's?
Not to mention they generally have more active timing control.
These might be factors that help prevent fouling and allow for longer life or perceived differences when used in some (seemingly more modern) applications.
So you're saying they've changed voltage to increase efficiency? So why use plugs from the 70's? Look... I'm only playing devils advocate to show that (perhaps) plugs with a better spark can make a difference.
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Indium plugs are OEM on my Prius, and they fit in perfectly with my attitude about cars: I want to have to think about my car's maintenance as little as possible, and have someone else do any required maintenance. The plugs last 100,000+ miles and I'm not going to think about them at all.
I have a different attitude about my motorcycle. I enjoy maintaining it, and I'm going to be pulling the plugs avery 6000 miles anyway, so I might as well replace them with new, freshly gapped, un-fouled ones. Therefore, I'm not interested in indium plugs for the motorcycle.
Different beasts, different attitudes, different plugs.
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Aren't today's electronic ignition systems operating with higher voltage coils than something from 70's?
Not to mention they generally have more active timing control.
These might be factors that help prevent fouling and allow for longer life or perceived differences when used in some (seemingly more modern) applications.
Not necessarily...The high voltage ignitions of the later 70's-80's were needed to fire the large plug gaps. Large plug gaps, .060, were needed to fire the lean mixtures used then before modern engine management systems.Remember the 8-9 MM fat plug wires ? ..Now with more sophisticated engine controls using coil on plug, the fuel air mixtures are held to 14.7 during normal engine loads and this doesn't generally require wide spark gaps or 50K volts...Of course many newer engines have high compression ratios that might require higher voltage to fire the plugs at wide open throttle..As a side note, the 14.7 air fuel mixture is a result of three way catalytic convertors needing this ratio to function properly..And this ,and higher HP, is the reason many new vehicles get worse fuel mileage than 90's vehicles...
In the 60's 4 inch bore V8's and bikes with 11-1 compression could rev to 7000 or more RPM with points ignition.This all worked ok with the rich fuel mixtures used back then...
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Just put iridiums in the auxiliary 4 stroke outboard on my sailboat. Had the easiest/fastest post winter start up ever in 15 years of ownership. Just sayin.....
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On the inner plugs of the Norge they make sense because of the extended interval and work involved.
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No, that's not what I meant, let me try this again from a computer instead of a phone.
I'm under the impression that MODERN (i.e. current ignition systems) are capable of producing higher voltages that earlier systems (solid state or not).
If this is true I was guessing that it was part of the equation why modern motors can benefit from long-life, precious metal spark plugs vs. traditional copper core plugs that wear away (increasing the gap).
But maybe I'm wrong, maybe it's mostly on the air/fuel ratio (better engine management to prevent fouling) and timing strategy (more active engine timing management to match ignition to ideal conditions) that allows these plugs to be of a benefit.
Bottom line my point was that chances are much greater that a 1970's motor will foul precious metal plugs (cancelling any benefit to their use) long before a modern motor. As such, it might make more sense to just use the standard copper core plugs and replace them more often.
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Kev, I got a bit carried off topic....According to NGK for example, precious metal electrode plugs fire at lower voltages and last longer than conventional plugs...
Many well respected engine tuners claim a higher voltage ignition will NOT improve performance if a "lower" voltage ignition was doing it's job...Many of these same tuners dislike thin electrode precious metal plugs claiming they invite detonation more so that a more conventional plug...
I use NGK G precious metal race plugs with a slightly wider gap in my vintage Triumph racer because it idles better ........A lot of times new or different spark plugs make the engine feel a bit more responsive or better fuel mileage. I believe the new plugs are masking another problem, like a marginal ignition or fuel delivery issue..
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Spark plugs in a properly tuned and maintained engine used as designed shouldn't be fouling in the first place.
This thing about high voltage ignition; once you get past what is actually needed it is no more than the same marketing used to sell all the liquids that claim to improve engine performance.
There is a difference between more and better but more seems to sell. More cubes, more HP, higher voltage, higher octane, just an extra couple psi , etc.
When it comes to MG though, it isn't like they use the best practices when it comes to sending stuff out the door so if Iridium plugs gives seat of the pants better results, why not?
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Norge P - I wouldn't assume a 1970 anything was currently "properly tuned and maintained" - and I'll go further, I wouldn't assume that even if it was that it would offer the same conditions in the combustion chamber to take advantage of whatever the precious metal plugs seem to offer (which is mostly longevity). But yeah, if it works and you don't mind the cost over standard, go for it. Of course, standard might work just as well for less.
Kev, I got a bit carried off topic....According to NGK for example, precious metal electrode plugs fire at lower voltages and last longer than conventional plugs...
Many well respected engine tuners claim a higher voltage ignition will NOT improve performance if a "lower" voltage ignition was doing it's job...Many of these same tuners dislike thin electrode precious metal plugs claiming they invite detonation more so that a more conventional plug...
I use NGK G precious metal race plugs with a slightly wider gap in my vintage Triumph racer because it idles better ........A lot of times new or different spark plugs make the engine feel a bit more responsive or better fuel mileage. I believe the new plugs are masking another problem, like a marginal ignition or fuel delivery issue..
I hear ya, and I'm not saying that higher voltage improves performance, but certainly higher voltage will make up for problems (like a widening gap or potential fouling), no?
I would assume the precious metal plugs don't generally require higher voltage, unless they start to become fouled. Would the resistance added to the circuit then draw a higher voltage to fire them in that circumstance?
But yeah, I guess it's more the fuel management and timing area of modern motors that allow people to take advantage of the precious metal plugs.
Again, my conclusion would be it's probably a waste in a 1970s ________________.
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Wait , now I'm confused . Isn't the copper used in regular spark plugs a better conductor than iridium or platinum ? How would a less conductive metal allow for higher voltages ?
Dusty
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I can tell you that putting a resistor plug in a resistor cap will create a whole pile of problems!
Ehh. I tried iridium plugs in my CB750, wasn't worth the cost.
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We can't solve the worlds problems nor can we ever agree on plugs. Try them... if your bike runs better, you might want to use them. Maybe it's masking other issues or deficiencies, but aren't there deficiencies anyhow. I mean you could say a heavy flywheel or rods are a deficiency. They are cheaper to test than either of those. Don't try them if you think their snake oil, but don't tell others that if you've never tried them. I've learned to try stuff first and keep an open mind. I've also learned more people are closed-minded than the contrary.
Ha!
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Wait , now I'm confused . Isn't the copper used in regular spark plugs a better conductor than iridium or platinum ? How would a less conductive metal allow for higher voltages ?
Dusty
Don't know the answer to the first, but I don't believe anyone said the second.
That said, if resistance increases voltage in the circuit (I still stumble on electrical theory) then widening gap would increase resistance, which in turn increases voltage (V = I x R)?
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Don't know the answer to the first, but I don't believe anyone said the second.
That said, if resistance increases voltage in the circuit (I still stumble on electrical theory) then widening gap would increase resistance, which in turn increases voltage (V = I x R)?
So in other words ... :evil: I really think some of the thinking here is backwards , in the real world shouldn't a copper conductor outperform a less conductive metal . Yeah , the gap thing and all , but what am I missing here ? Seems basic physics still applies .
Dusty
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So in other words ... :evil: I really think some of the thinking here is backwards , in the real world shouldn't a copper conductor outperform a less conductive metal . Yeah , the gap thing and all , but what am I missing here ? Seems basic physics still applies .
Dusty
A person that knows just enough can sometimes be dangerously naive. :wink:
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A person that knows just enough can sometimes be dangerously naive. :wink:
Heck , I don't claim to understand any of this , just asking questions :laugh: OK where is Triple Jim or Kiwi Roy ?
Dusty
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In the real world, spark plugs like anything else are all part of the whole system, there is no magic plug that makes everything else better anymore than some certain oil makes the engine run better if it is worn.
If something works or you, ok. Theories are great, the patent office is filled with entire collections of them. How that makes a difference if the bike performs like you want it to when you grab a handful of throttle really doesn't matter.
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In the real world, spark plugs like anything else are all part of the whole system, there is no magic plug that makes everything else better anymore than some certain oil makes the engine run better if it is worn.
If something works or you, ok. Theories are great, the patent office is filled with entire collections of them. How that makes a difference if the bike performs like you want it to when you grab a handful of throttle really doesn't matter.
Yes... A small piece of the puzzle. Make enough small differences...
Like tranny oils I've used... one that works in one bike and shifts very pleasantly did not do so in the other. Through happenstance I found a different oil did much better in my SB trans for more positive shifts. Same went for these plugs. I can't explain it but I will try them in my Super Lario to see how they react there. No favorable results in my stock Lario.
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So in other words ... :evil: I really think some of the thinking here is backwards , in the real world shouldn't a copper conductor outperform a less conductive metal . Yeah , the gap thing and all , but what am I missing here ? Seems basic physics still applies .
Dusty
Dusty,the copper in a standard plug isn't used for the electrodes where the spark jumps the gap. The copper is in the inner central core leading to the center electrode,which is a steel alloy. The longer life plugs fuse an iridium or other longer -wearing material to the electrode gap surfaces or replace the lower center part with a fine wire.
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Dusty,the copper in a standard plug isn't used for the electrodes where the spark jumps the gap. The copper is in the inner central core leading to the center electrode,which is a steel alloy. The longer life plugs fuse an iridium or other longer -wearing material to the electrode gap surfaces or replace the lower center part with a fine wire.
Thanks Terry . However , isn't that more to prevent wear over time than for initial performance ? Help me out here , really trying to get a good grasp of this .
Dusty
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So in other words ... :evil: I really think some of the thinking here is backwards , in the real world shouldn't a copper conductor outperform a less conductive metal . Yeah , the gap thing and all , but what am I missing here ? Seems basic physics still applies .
Dusty
Depends on what you mean by outperform.
The copper core will wear much faster and the gap should in theory grow to a point beyond the ignition system's ability and/or I believe stress the coils (attempting to pull too much voltage).
The potential advantage of the copper core plugs would be lower initial cost making them easier to throw away when the gap widens and/or if they are fouled by mechanical or tuning issues.
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Not required on Guzzi's as the benefit is in not having to change them as they last 3 times as long.
Changing Guzzi spark plugs is so easy that it's almost inconcievable to ride a Guzzi over 50,000 miles without ever inspecting the plugs.
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In all this there is one other factor which shouldn't be discounted, personal preference by each person to just use what they think is the best. That can go against tests, charts and all the rest. In the same way some people will never use Fram oil filter, much of what happens is what you believe happens.
Take a bike with horribly dirty oil but was of a certain brand (one if the best?). It runs ratty but it gets changed with a non name oil and feels to run better. Someone somewhere will swear that it was the oil, not the oil change that made all the difference and that the brand had little if anything to do with it.
No doubt some stuff performs better than other stuff but how much of the experience is perceived vs reality?
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Thanks Terry . However , isn't that more to prevent wear over time than for initial performance ? Help me out here , really trying to get a good grasp of this .
Dusty
That's correct. Increased performance over standard plugs in some applications is a possible side effect of the spark kernel placement relative to the combustible charge in the cylinder. If your particular application does not specify such plugs then you pay your money and you take your chances.
Terry
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I loved the NGK BUHX on my H1 - they were flat, never had to gap them!
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That's correct. Increased performance over standard plugs in some applications is a possible side effect of the spark kernel placement relative to the combustible charge in the cylinder. If your particular application does not specify such plugs then you pay your money and you take your chances.
Terry
Well sure :laugh: Actually that makes perfect sense . What about in Diesels ? :rolleyes:
Someone needs to use the screen name "Colonel Sparky" :laugh:
Dusty
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A good rule of thumb on all this is that if your performance changed by changing spark plugs, the spark plugs needed changing. If it doesn't then the problem is somewhere else.
I'm reading all sorts of empirical data suggesting that changing to iridium plugs immediately made the bike run better. I believe it. Probably cleaning and regapping the ones that were in there would have also improved the engine running. What I don't read is where anyone PROVED the difference was IRIDIUM by popping in a NEW set of their old spec plug and doing a quantitative comparison. I'm guessing that with any new plugs under the same circumstances with the same gas most folks couldn't tell the difference between iridium and anything else.
What seems to be beyond dispute is the increased service interval using iridium. They do seem to hold a gap longer.
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WOW! This is more fun than an oil thread. :grin: For the last few days I've been running on a brand new pair of NGK 7333 plugs. I ordered the NGK iridium plugs from NAPA but they were a no show. I'll pick them up Monday (if they show up by then). That will give a week of riding and gas mileage to give a true comparison.
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should mention the part number for the iridium is NGK 6637. Good luck finding them in stock though LOL
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I have a 1984 LeMans 3 with nearly 200,000 miles on it.
I used to change the spark plugs every 6,000 miles, they needed it.
I have had 1 spark plug blow out of the head due to the thread failing, one helicoil come out with the plug etc.
Around 20,000 miles ago I fitted iridium plugs, I twin plugged the heads around 20 years ago, so I fitted 4.
I have removed and inspected them once, no fouling, no discernable wear, no real improvement to anything except plug life and less wear and tear on the threads for the spark plugs in the heads.
They work as advertised and suit my maintenance requirements.
Cheers
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Had a '66 BMW R60/2 that I recently sold.
Kick start and a magneto ignition.
You get the weakest spark at starting because all is turning slowly.
The fine wire tip of the Iridium plug lends itself to more easily generating an arc (point discharge).
My /2 started a bit more easily (1 kick instead of 2 or 3) with the Iridium plugs.
The idle was a bit smoother at really slow rpm.
At speed the magneto generated plenty of current.
The difference was less noticeable there.
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The idle on my Breva 1100 was noticeably smoother after changing to Iridium outer plugs.
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It idles smoother after you changed the outer plugs to iridium from old used-up plugs or from fresh, new ones?
This is part I'm having trouble sorting out. Folks are saying they changed plugs to iridium and the bike ran better. This suggests the bike was running less the better before the change. But unless you were changing to new iriduims on a tuned bike from new [insert brand and type here] plugs on a tuned bike you're not looking at the differences between two types of spark plugs. You're looking at the results of replacing clapped out consumables with fresh. In some cases you've changed the air and fuel filters, adjusted the valves, tweaked the fueling, AND changed the plugs -- but attribute the improvement to iridium. See my problem?
I'm not concluding anything about iridium's place in the pecking order. I'm not saying the reports are bunk. I'm just saying that the punch line doesn't follow the setup.
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I noticed a difference in the idle when I replaced my standard plugs with new standard plugs. Also the 1151 comes with inner Iridium plugs from the factory as far as I can tell and the good kind too. NGK platinum laser.
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If the old plugs were within the 6k mile range per the owners manual for replacement then they are NOT clapped out. Mine was well within before the change. If you want to argue how much within, then nobody should be using regular plugs if they deteriorate that much within that timeframe. Just a better case for iridiums in my book. I'm also not claiming using them, but I'm also saying "clapped out" should be beyond the service manual designation, no??
I realize you want to compare apples to apples but you bring up another VERY valid point about deterioration. This is important to note as well as it could be a bigger point to all this discussion. It is well-documented that the iridiums don't deteriorate at nearly the rate a regular plug will. Explain "clapped out" RK?
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"clapped out" is a description of condition. It means "out-of-serviceable range for whatever reason." "owner's manual" is words on a page. Given the choice, I'll go by condition the object, not by what's written about the object.
But working backwards toward a baseline that your butt remembers from the last tune up is not the way to do a comparison. You establish the baseline and then compare. So it doesn't matter a whit what the book says about the old plug's service interval. If the plug is used it's used and not a fair comparison to a new plug.
If you want to see what difference a spark plug makes, you tune the machine, including fresh plugs of the old type, and then compare that performance to the same conditions with the new type plug. Anything else is not a valid test.
Again, I'm not saying iridium is better or not. I'm just saying that these antidotal reports are just that -- stories about sparky things. If folks would go that extra step and swap in and out new plugs of both types against the tuned baseline and report back, then we'd have something here.
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I agree that's a fair test; in the same breath I would say it would be fair to test each after several thousand miles in the same bike. If what you say is things deteriorate to that point, then this is also a valid test. Iridium's are built for longevity and regulars are not. This is only fair to an iridium. I can take a new tool at HF and loosen the same bolt as using a Snap-on when new...
Years later?
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I put an iridium plugs in my 2 stroke and thumper and right away felt my wallet was lighter! :grin: They do seem to last longer and foul less.
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I put an iridium plugs in my 2 stroke and thumper and right away felt my wallet was lighter! :grin: They do seem to last longer and foul less.
Now there are some conclusions I can accept without further study. :grin:
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Using the NGK Iridium plugs in my 03 Stone Touring with satisfaction. I sourced them on E-bay a couple of years ago for $15/pair postpaid. Have several thousand miles on them; no complaints at all.
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Funnily enough I ordered a set of Iridium NGK 6637s 10 minutes ago for my B11
Bike is a bit "missy" so I assume it needs new plugs and bought the Iridium's just to see.
If that doesn't sort 'er out I'll change the inners too - but they've only done 2-3 thousand miles so should be OK for a while yet
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Parts guy at NAPA tells me the NGK 6637 plug is not available anymore. I need to find a better parts store.
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Up date on the DENSO 5362 iridiums I put in my 2015 V7 stone. Left side One failed oddly and showed rich dark and the right side was good.
The failed one showed some fracturing in the ceramic and seemed to allow a slight compression leak. SsOoo I cant give a performance input!
I missed it, what is the NGK CPR8EB-9 iridium replacement ?? I couldnt find one.
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Parts guy at NAPA tells me the NGK 6637 plug is not available anymore. I need to find a better parts store.
and he is an idiot, google shows ALOT of places you can get them from
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Put them in my V11 Lemans and noticed a good difference. Tried them in my older Lario and no difference. I feel they foul easier so if I were using carbs I wouldn't go there, FI try them you may feel a better pull and quicker response. My buddy noticed it in both his V11's also. Supposedly a bigger kernel. Worth the experiment I feel from my (our) experience.
hmmmm. might be worth a try on my V11s. With Guzzi electronics / ignition, I would think any help might be an improvement.
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Up date on the DENSO 5362 iridiums I put in my 2015 V7 stone. Left side One failed oddly and showed rich dark and the right side was good.
The failed one showed some fracturing in the ceramic and seemed to allow a slight compression leak. SsOoo I cant give a performance input!
I've used DENSO ridiums in my W650 for years - love 'em!
They seem to last forever.
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I put them in my lawn mower, and notice increased cutting performance :laugh: