Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Chuck in Indiana on June 12, 2016, 03:09:16 PM
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A couple of days ago, my PC suddenly quit. It was like the power had been shut off. I waited a while in case it was heat related and tried again. It started to boot up, then died again. I thought, "Shirley it's the power supply." Just put a new one in, hooked the SATA cable to the hard drive, other cable to the floppy, power to the mother board.
Power supply runs, but that is all. Holding the power button down to shut it off does nothing.
I'm clueless, of course.. I'm a parts changer. Do I need to seek professional aid? :smiley:
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I'd say it's likely that it either has some bad memory or something on the motherboard like the processor failed. Were there any boot messages when it tried to start, that might give a clue?
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I'd say it's likely that it either has some bad memory or something on the motherboard like the processor failed. Were there any boot messages when it tried to start, that might give a clue?
Nope, it didn't get that far.
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Motherboard.
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If you have more than one SIMM, you might try removing one and see if it boots. If not, put the other one in by itself and see it it boots. A bad SIMM can make a computer appear dead, but of course so can a lot of other things.
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Any beeps as it tries to start up? if so note the pattern, like long-short-long..
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If you hooked up the power supply to the floppy drive, then yes, you need professional aid. There hasn't been a computer floppy drive sold with or without a computer attached for at least a decade. If your computer is that old it probably died of disappointment.
Seriously though -- what is the age and brand/model computer? What is the OS? What point of boot does it arrive at -- be specific.
Recheck the cabling. There is a 20-pin and a 24-pin connector possible to the motherboard. Do you have the proper one? Also, there is a 4-pin square connector that needs to go to the motherboard. That's the actual switch connection. Gotta have that.
In order to boot, assuming power, the computer needs a good video, memory, and CPU signal. Any one missing and you got nothing. So pull and reseat everything to be sure there isn't a tarnish/corrosion issue with a connector.
Report back.
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A computer is a consumable. I'd buy a new one and put my back up on it.
You shirley have a back up, right Chuck?
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If you hooked up the power supply to the floppy drive, then yes, you need professional aid. There hasn't been a computer floppy drive sold with or without a computer attached for at least a decade. If your computer is that old it probably died of disappointment.
Seriously though -- what is the age and brand/model computer? What is the OS? What point of boot does it arrive at -- be specific.
Recheck the cabling. There is a 20-pin and a 24-pin connector possible to the motherboard. Do you have the proper one? Also, there is a 4-pin square connector that needs to go to the motherboard. That's the actual switch connection. Gotta have that.
In order to boot, assuming power, the computer needs a good video, memory, and CPU signal. Any one missing and you got nothing. So pull and reseat everything to be sure there isn't a tarnish/corrosion issue with a connector.
Report back.
Reporting back, sir. :smiley: It's a Gateway, and kind of old. Quad core from memory. Originally came with Vista, if that helps, but upgraded to Win7. CD drive, not floppy. 24 pin connector. You can just see the power connector to the mother board.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7336/27558128161_0bf40d564e_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/HZdBoH)2016-06-12_05-17-25 (https://flic.kr/p/HZdBoH) by Charles Stottlemyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/107188298@N06/), on Flickr
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Alrighty. It's been a while since they made cow-colored computers. There was a time when they ruled. Kinda like windjammers (cue the "when windjammers roamed" pic photoshopped appropriately).
Plug in that power connector where it goes on the motherboard and unplug everything from the drives -- signal and power.
Unplug everything from the back except the plug to the wall and the plug to the video. Keybord, mouse, etc -- all unplugged. No usb sticks, etc.
Then try to start it. It should give you some messages on the screen whining about all the stuff you unplugged. If it does that we can move forward testing the unplugged stuff. If it does not, there is no point with a computer that old. It's time to take ol' Bossie out back . . . . .
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Alrighty. It's been a while since they made cow-colored computers. There was a time when they ruled. Kinda like windjammers (cue the "when windjammers roamed" pic photoshopped appropriately).
Plug in that power connector where it goes on the motherboard and unplug everything from the drives -- signal and power.
Unplug everything from the back except the plug to the wall and the plug to the video. Keybord, mouse, etc -- all unplugged. No usb sticks, etc.
Then try to start it. It should give you some messages on the screen whining about all the stuff you unplugged. If it does that we can move forward testing the unplugged stuff. If it does not, there is no point with a computer that old. It's time to take ol' Bossie out back . . . . .
Dang, old Bessie was a good old girl.. but when it's time it's time. <loading 44>
Thanks all.. :sad:
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A computer is a consumable. I'd buy a new one and put my back up on it.
You shirley have a back up, right Chuck?
I Shirley do. :smiley: I've been avoiding new computers, though. I'm not sure that my Cad/cam software will run on Win 10, and I don't know if communications (rs232) with a serial port is possible either. I'm sort of in the plugs and points era. Is there a USB to serial converter?
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Sounds like it's gone into "protect the public mode" you haven't typed any bad words lately have you?
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Sounds like it's gone into "protect the public mode" you haven't typed any bad words lately have you?
Well, I though of a couple when the computer suddenly died. Shirley they aren't reading our thoughts yet.. are they?
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So. Assuming that I'm buying a *choke gasp* new computer.. is there any brand I should avoid? I pay no attention whatsoever to computers.. they're tools to me, not toys.
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Get a fuel injected one. :evil:
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I Shirley do. :smiley: I've been avoiding new computers, though. I'm not sure that my Cad/cam software will run on Win 10, and I don't know if communications (rs232) with a serial port is possible either. I'm sort of in the plugs and points era. Is there a USB to serial converter?
If your CAD/CAM requires a lower version of Windows than Win10, you've got a couple of choices. Some machines are still on the market from the 'old' days with pre-installed Win8 or even Win7, but buy soon as the supply is limited, You can also buy a copy of Windows 7 or 8.1 and install it yourself, but if you're not well-versed you may have issues with installation since machines using the latest 5th or 6th generation Intel motherboards may not be able to support installation from a USB device (i.e., they only have USB 3.0 ports and it becomes acrobatic to successfully install Win7 especially). You may also be able to use a virtual machine to run Windows 7 as a process under Windows 10, and use your software in that VM environment. Again, if you're skills are basic you'll need to bone up a bit to do this.
The best free virtual machine software is VirtualBox, available here: https://www.virtualbox.org/ (https://www.virtualbox.org/)
Some desktop machines still have serial ports, but fewer all the time. USB to serial converters are readily available, and better quality ones with good drivers can work even with older software. Read the Guzzidiag threads and you'll see what happens when people try to use low-quality USB to serial adapters. You'll also see some references to help you identify USB-to-serial products that work well.
Most major name brands, and a few of the minor ones are all good. I have not been impressed with HP/Compaq for almost a decade, maybe longer. Lenovo, Toshiba, Dell, Asus, Acer, and a bunch of others are all good. For my own use, I usually build my own desktops and servers, and buy ThinkPads (Lenovo) for my laptops.
You may want to buy locally for support, but if you want to buy online, good sources include Fry's, Newegg, TigerDirect, and some others.
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I have no recommendations other than to
blow up your tv,
throw away the paper,
go to the mountains,
build you a home.
Have a bunch of children.
Bring them up on peaches.
Try to find Jesus
on your own.
I have reverted to my luddite, feral ways and can no longer advocate for computers or computing.
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[. Shirley they aren't reading our thoughts yet.. are they?
quote]
I don't think your old one could, but the new one certainly will, so practice mind control before you log on. :shocked:
And whatever brand you choose looks like there will soon be an improved beetle map available :thumb:
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I Shirley do. :smiley: I've been avoiding new computers, though. I'm not sure that my Cad/cam software will run on Win 10, and I don't know if communications (rs232) with a serial port is possible either. I'm sort of in the plugs and points era. Is there a USB to serial converter?
The only possible issue that I can think of, is that the USB to serial adapter might assign the COM port to a number greater than 9. I have encountered a lot of old software that didn't allow you to use, say port COM16. Even on those cases, you can usually go into the driver in device manager, and set a better COM port number.
In my case, I use a PC to talk to a 30year old weather station. The USB to serial adapter has been a good thing. A nearby lightning strike takes out the USB to serial dongle, not the PC port like it used to.
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If your only goal is CAD, then get a copy of Draftsight. It's free and is as capable of the 2D Autocad.
If it's the CAM you're worried about then it's another issue. Maybe see if there is a more current one that would work? Tons out there in the open source world.
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If your only goal is CAD, then get a copy of Draftsight. It's free and is as capable of the 2D Autocad.
And there's a version for Linux.
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I'm pretty well married to my cad/cam. It's 3D, I'm familiar with it, I've been running it since it was on DOS. (Luddite content) Woke up early this morning thinking about all the hassle this is going to be.
Another couple of questions.
Back in the Pleistocene, I put my old hard drive in a new computer as a slave. Is that still possible with 32 bit/64 bit technology?
My old (pre Y2K) Quickbooks won't run on the 64 bit system either, will it?
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If your CAD/CAM requires a lower version of Windows than Win10, you've got a couple of choices. Some machines are still on the market from the 'old' days with pre-installed Win8 or even Win7, but buy soon as the supply is limited, You can also buy a copy of Windows 7 or 8.1 and install it yourself, but if you're not well-versed you may have issues with installation since machines using the latest 5th or 6th generation Intel motherboards may not be able to support installation from a USB device (i.e., they only have USB 3.0 ports and it becomes acrobatic to successfully install Win7 especially). You may also be able to use a virtual machine to run Windows 7 as a process under Windows 10, and use your software in that VM environment. Again, if you're skills are basic you'll need to bone up a bit to do this.
The best free virtual machine software is VirtualBox, available here: https://www.virtualbox.org/ (https://www.virtualbox.org/)
Some desktop machines still have serial ports, but fewer all the time. USB to serial converters are readily available, and better quality ones with good drivers can work even with older software. Read the Guzzidiag threads and you'll see what happens when people try to use low-quality USB to serial adapters. You'll also see some references to help you identify USB-to-serial products that work well.
Most major name brands, and a few of the minor ones are all good. I have not been impressed with HP/Compaq for almost a decade, maybe longer. Lenovo, Toshiba, Dell, Asus, Acer, and a bunch of others are all good. For my own use, I usually build my own desktops and servers, and buy ThinkPads (Lenovo) for my laptops.
You may want to buy locally for support, but if you want to buy online, good sources include Fry's, Newegg, TigerDirect, and some others.
Yeah, I've read of the issues with Guzzi Diag.. that's why I was thinking of a real serial port. :grin: Thanks for the advice.
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I have no recommendations other than to
blow up your tv,
throw away the paper,
go to the mountains,
build you a home.
Have a bunch of children.
Bring them up on peaches.
Try to find Jesus
on your own.
I have reverted to my luddite, feral ways and can no longer advocate for computers or computing.
John has it right. :smiley: I'm trying to get there. Computers have kept me in toys for years. This job I'm currently working on is the last I'm going to be actively involved in, but I'll have to keep the machinery running for the pup I'm training.
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You can probably buy a new motherboard for that machine for about $25 - $35 from Ebay.
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You can probably buy a new motherboard for that machine for about $25 - $35 from Ebay.
Great idea.. I've kept the obsolete ('86) :shocked: CNC running with ebay boards. Never even thought about an ebay motherboard.. Duh.
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Great idea.. I've kept the obsolete ('86) :shocked: CNC running with ebay boards. Never even thought about an ebay motherboard.. Duh.
They couple of Gateways that I worked on had odd things about the configurations. They didn't use normal ATX mother boards, or the power supplies connectors were a bit odd, or something there. So make sure everything is a match if you do that.
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I've lost count of the notebook computers my wife and I have saved with eBay motherboards.
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They couple of Gateways that I worked on had odd things about the configurations. They didn't use normal ATX mother boards, or the power supplies connectors were a bit odd, or something there. So make sure everything is a match if you do that.
Ok, thanks for that, Wayne..
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Chuck,
Being a cretin myself, I looked at windows 8 and could not figure it out on a non-touch screen computer. So my only recourse was to buy the most powerful computer I could find that still came with Win7, a fairly nice Asus with an iCore7 with a bunch of cores (what ever that means) and 32 gig of Ram. It works great, and it runs all my old software. When I spoke with various computer sellers about a newer computer, they told me that it was not feasible to back load Win7 as the drivers and other stuff would not be there. I don't know if this was marketing or not, but just wanted to pass this on. I would be amazed if you could find a new PC with Win7 locally, but perhaps on the innerneck... Bin your old one and keep the hard drive. PC's are dirt cheap, you can get an entire system for the price of a good mother board.... If all else fails, I have a nice Dell Laptop with an iCore 5 with 16 g of ram I could send your way, it works great with all of my oddball software, including autocad and ProE. Back to the future man...
Cheers my freind
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Kind of hard to access Wild Guzzi employing an abacus :huh: :laugh: Hmm , will a Ouija board work?
Dusty
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A lot to cover.
Gateway had their own physical layout for their motherboards. The location of the slots and the little keyboard and usb ports were deliberately made different. So unless you can find a genuine gateway board that fits that particular case, you'll have to chop the back out of the case to access the rear stuff or build the computer in a file cabinet drawer where you can get to all the stuff.
Yes, I read where you said SATA for your hard drive connection. This drive, assuming it wasn't part of the meltdown, should attach to a modern computer. 32/64-bit doesn't matter for the data, which is all you'll get off it. 32/64 does matter to programs, but you won't be able to simply run your programs from a disk installed in another computer. Programs need to be installed and the active e opsys made aware of them.
Serious workstations still have serial ports. Look in the business and scientific sales area of your vendor. You won't be getting native serial on a bargain machine. Also, you can still buy expansion cards with serial ports. Install one of those and you should still be able to configure com 2/4, which are the preferred ports for all serial.
Dusty, you're beginning to 'get it'.
And finally, For a virtually unknown songster, we seem to quote John quite a bit on this forum. Prime Prine Pride!
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David , I try :laugh: Oh , my guess is Mr Prine is a favorite among us , er , umm , well , let's call us unique folks :grin:
Dusty
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When I spoke with various computer sellers about a newer computer, they told me that it was not feasible to back load Win7 as the drivers and other stuff would not be there. I don't know if this was marketing or not, but just wanted to pass this on.
Actually, I just finished installing Windows 7 on a sixth-gen Intel motherboard (Skylake series). It's the very latest chipset, and one of the ones that supposedly is designed in such a way that Windows 7 can't be installed. It's a pure UEFI (non-BIOS, handles legacy through a 'thunking' layer), and has only USB3.0 (no 2.0 support except through OS-level drivers).
That may be true for the Geek Gang or other KFOOS (kids fresh out of school), but us guys that used to do memory management using CONFIG.SYS can still get around these issues. It involved creating a modified installation for Windows 7 on a USB stick, interrupting the installation to manually partition the hard drive and add the USB 3.0 drivers missing from Windows 7, and then continuing the installation. Not easy, not simple, but it can be done. If anybody wants instructions, ping me and I'll PM them or (with enough interest) post them here.
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My head hurts!
My wife loaned me her touch screen laptop (Windows) while my apple was out, now after getting my apple back, I keep touching a non-touch screen.
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Yes, I read where you said SATA for your hard drive connection. This drive, assuming it wasn't part of the meltdown, should attach to a modern computer. 32/64-bit doesn't matter for the data, which is all you'll get off it. 32/64 does matter to programs, but you won't be able to simply run your programs from a disk installed in another computer. Programs need to be installed and the active e opsys made aware of them.
So you're saying that even if I jump through hoops and find an exact motherboard, install all my stuff on it, start it up, my programs won't run without re installing everything? Crap. In that case I might as well buy a used 32 bit machine that my programs will run on and be done with it.
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So you're saying that even if I jump through hoops and find an exact motherboard, install all my stuff on it, start it up, my programs won't run without re installing everything? Crap. In that case I might as well buy a used 32 bit machine that my programs will run on and be done with it.
No, if you do an exact mother board swap, all should work well. If it is the mother board that is bad, of course.
He is saying that if you put the old drive in a new PC, you will need to reinstall your program.
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Really? I don't doubt it, I just have very minimal experience with Microsoft Windows. Where I come from, a program is just a special type of data file that can be loaded into memory and executed, irrespective of where it might be (and I suppose that would include the device cabling.)
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It depends on the program and the OS it was designed for.
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Really? I don't doubt it, I just have very minimal experience with Microsoft Windows. Where I come from, a program is just a special type of data file that can be loaded into memory and executed, irrespective of where it might be (and I suppose that would include the device cabling.)
Really. And by definition a data file is not an executable.
No, if you do an exact mother board swap, all should work well. If it is the mother board that is bad, of course.
He is saying that if you put the old drive in a new PC, you will need to reinstall your program.
this.
If you make the old drive the active drive so it's using the copy of windows that the programs were loaded to it will work. So if you found the same make and model of computer and made your old drive the boot drive you could dodge the bullet. But that wasn't what you asked.
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Really? I don't doubt it, I just have very minimal experience with Microsoft Windows. Where I come from, a program is just a special type of data file that can be loaded into memory and executed, irrespective of where it might be (and I suppose that would include the device cabling.)
Many programs have ties to the registry. Then if it is uninstalled, it knows where everything is, like linked libraries and such, so it can clean it all up.
Some simple programs don't need that. GuzziDiag is like that. A simple executable, that has a local INI file to keep track of settings. No install needed.
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Chuck. When I mentioned that "You can probably buy a new motherboard for that machine for about $25 - $35 from Ebay" I didn't realize it would cause so much confusion. When I said "that machine" I should have said a NOS factory replacement board specific to that computer normally used in warranty and repair work. These are duplicates of the original motherboard and modifications to the chassis or the power connections are not needed or required. Not an upgrade either. Just plug and play back to where you were.
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Ok, I think I have a handle on it now. :smiley: I'm going to drop it off to a computer guy and *cough cough* pay him to put a new motherboard in it while we head to the Nationals. (Assuming that's what the problem is.)
We'll be gone a month, and when we get back, I have to make a bunch of oiler parts and nozzles for a steel mill. I'm short on time, or I'd do it myself. Even I can swap parts in a computer, sort of like a Guzzi parts changer instead of a real mechanic.. :smiley:
Thanks, all. WG rocks! :thumb:
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Just specify that he has to do it without disturbing your hard drive and that your hard drive needs to boot and run the opsys. If he messes with the hard drive all bets abut your cadd program working are off.
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Disturb the hard drive? Is that a technical term?
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Disturb the hard drive? Is that a technical term?
It's an understandable term. I don't make assumptions about the expertise of computer technicians. One reason I'm getting out of the game is that the last place that wanted me to subcontract was insisting that I pay for a huge battery of background checks -- criminal, drug, financial, deadbeat dad, domestic violence, etc. But nobody asked diddly squat about my ability to do the work. They care very much about you ever running a stop sign, but don't care at all if you know the difference between a screwdriver and pudding. So I use simple words with them when possible.
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That puts me in a position that reflects awkwardly on my intelligence, because I don't understand it, I mean unambiguously. Are we talking about the disk as a medium, so please avoid writing to it, or the items stored on that medium, so please avoid any changes to file content or directory structure, or the physical device must remain attached to the same adaptor plugs, or (I guess least likely but what it sounds most like) do not move the disk drive? If the computer came back with all the data restored to a new solid state drive? etc.
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Are you doing this or is a technician doing it?
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That puts me in a position that reflects awkwardly on my intelligence, because I don't understand it, I mean unambiguously. Are we talking about the disk as a medium, so please avoid writing to it, or the items stored on that medium, so please avoid any changes to file content or directory structure, or the physical device must remain attached to the same adaptor plugs, or (I guess least likely but what it sounds most like) do not move the disk drive? If the computer came back with all the data restored to a new solid state drive? etc.
The drive's contents, including how it is partitioned, formatted, addressed, its place in the boot order of devices, the data it contains, etc. all need to match - before and after the new MB is installed. If this is done, all should be copesthetic. If anything changes, all bets are off. Cables, etc can be changed like for like, as you are doing with the motherboard, but the cables should be connected to the same connection points on the new board as they were on the old. This is what is meant by not disturbing the drive - the only thing in the system that changes is the MB and possibly the processor (if not moved form the old MB, i.e., it's a soldered component).
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Yep, and the old drive has to remain the "C" drive or the program may not recognize where it is at either. BTDT numerous times.