Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Seamaster on June 27, 2016, 01:43:11 PM
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Ok, this probably is a dead horse, but I researched the Internet, there is still no defiant answer to this. I am living in West Washington State, where are the good places to get ethanol free gas? How reliable is pure-gas.org? I notice the gas station that listed on the pure-gas.org near my house does not have much traffic, i mean there are not many people buy gas over there, their gas may be really old. Is Shell V-Power premium is still ethanol free? Thanks for the help.
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Isn't Chevron Premium Ethanol free?
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I do not want to be snarky. I always wondered what it meant for gas to be "too old". I do not think 6 months or even a year is too old assuming the gas is not picking up condensation. Surly there must be a standard for "too old gas". And for that matter oil. Modern oils are so stabile that they can sit in the garage forever but put it in an engine and then the timer starts. What does Guzziland think? And really Seamaster I am not challenging you, I just thought this would be a good question to ask cause I have always wondered what the answer is.
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No offense taken
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I do not want to be snarky. I always wondered what it meant for gas to be "too old". I do not think 6 months or even a year is too old assuming the gas is not picking up condensation. Surly there must be a standard for "too old gas". And for that matter oil. Modern oils are so stabile that they can sit in the garage forever but put it in an engine and then the timer starts. What does Guzziland think? And really Seamaster I am not challenging you, I just thought this would be a good question to ask cause I have always wondered what the answer is.
Old gas can happen from a couple of different causes, so YMMV (literally). Moisture entering the fuel is one thing (not a big issue here in the Mojave, but in Houston or NOLA? :shocked: ). Volatile elements in the fuel can break down or gas off, reducing its quality - heat accelerates this (definitely an issue here!). Being in an unsealed container (including a vented gas tank) magnifies and speeds up the breakdown and the ability of water to gather in the fuel. Worst case - a half full gas tank (leaving lots of room for air), temperature swings from dew-point lows to warm days (air expansion and contraction 'refreshes' the air in the empty space, bringing in moisture and taking out gassed off volatiles). Since oil is less volatile and more dense, its tendency to do these things is much less (although still present) - but not all oils are 'oils'. For example, brake fluid is tremendously attractive to water vapor and will absorb it from the air faster than you can spell 'hydrophilic'.
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Ok, this probably is a dead horse, but I researched the Internet, there is still no defiant answer to this. I am living in West Washington State, where are the good places to get ethanol free gas? How reliable is pure-gas.org? I notice the gas station that listed on the pure-gas.org near my house does not have much traffic, i mean there are not many people buy gas over there, their gas may be really old. Is Shell V-Power premium is still ethanol free? Thanks for the help.
No mainstream company (Shell, Chevron, et al) can be relied on to produce ethanol-free gas unless it is specifically labeled as being ethanol-free. The claim that their premium grades are ethanol-free is a modern myth, since the base stock is the same as their other grades and the additives control the final octane ratings. That being said, some mainstream stations do offer ethanol-free fuel - but it has to have a separate pump and nozzle, and a separate storage tank, making it a costly proposition for that station. Many modern pumps are 'blending' pumps, with two tanks (regular and premium) and the mid-grade(s) being created by drawing a mix from the two tanks together. Ethanol-free just can't be delivered in that scenario.
Another site to check is http://www.buyrealgas.com/index.html (http://www.buyrealgas.com/index.html) . I would say if a location shows on both sites, and shows signs of traffic, it's likely worth a try.
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In Wisconsin, Shell often offers ethanol-free premium gas in bigger cities (or at least in Madison). Kwik Trip offers it more widely. Always labeled, always with a separate nozzle.
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Ethanol is terrible for aluminum and the 10% stuff actually runs 3-4% leaner than pure gasoline. Out here in Waldheim, we are fortunate to have lots of ethanol-free stations. However, the pure stuff is more expensive and even more so for premium. I use it in my carbureted Triumph and my farm equipment pretty much exclusively. I put it in the Calvin too, but it works okay with the 10% stuff.
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Here in STL metro all gas is EPA mandated E10.
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Google ethanol free Washington or click on linky: http://www.buyrealgas.com/Washington.html
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So I'm out in the middle of bum-$#@& North Carolina. My low gas light has been on for a LONG time. I finally find a station not horribly far off the Blue Ridge Parkway. I pulled in to the cheap pump. The station owner put down his banjo and run out to tell me his premium gasoline is alcohol free. I told him I like the alcohol. Sure enough, about 1/2 hour later, the rear wheel bearing went out. All because of alcohol in the fuel.
:smiley:
:rolleyes:
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Pure gas is not updated unless someone does in the area, so it may or may not be accurate. Usually, the station has ethanol free, but only low octane. Never seen Chevron with ethanol free gas.
Conoco from time to time is the only major brand that I have seen with ethanol free gas.
Old head
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I notice the puregas.com is not up to date, ran to the gas station that is listed, not seems in business. Also I checked the Shell station down the road, there is no where on the pump says ethonal free
(http://thumb.ibb.co/iMhOdv/image.jpg) (http://ibb.co/iMhOdv)
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For older bikes, a reasonable (though illegal) alternative is aviation gas, the 100LL variety. LL is low lead, so this is verboten in bikes with emissions equipment. Also illegal because you don't pay road taxes on it. Nonetheless very expensive -- around here $4 a gallon. But if the goal is zero ethanol, this is where you're guaranteed to find it.
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Fortunately there is a station about a mile from me with a separate pump for 90 octane with no corn sqeezins. All my non-car stuff loves it. Too much $$$ to run it in a late model car 15000 miles a year! It's about 3.25 now vs. 2.00 for regular at costco today.
So if you want some in Raleigh head to the Marathon on Glenwood at Five Points.
Ask for pump 9 :wink:
Hunter
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I guess I don't understand the need to have alcohol free.
Bike and cars have been running on it fine for a long time. Only thing I won't put it in is my 2 stroke lawn equipment, only because I leave fuel in the tank almost all year.
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For older bikes, a reasonable (though illegal) alternative is aviation gas, the 100LL variety. LL is low lead, so this is verboten in bikes with emissions equipment. Also illegal because you don't pay road taxes on it. Nonetheless very expensive -- around here $4 a gallon. But if the goal is zero ethanol, this is where you're guaranteed to find it.
Amen on that. In NJ -no ethanol free pumps so the old bikes get avgas. It's $4 per gallon but well worth it.
I'm waiting for NJ to outlaw farts because they pollute and contribute to global warming.
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So I'm out in the middle of bum-$#@& North Carolina...
That's just over the next holler from here.
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I'm waiting for NJ to outlaw farts because they pollute and contribute to global warming.
Actually, the science says cow farts are a measurable problem - so if you weigh what a cow does and eat what a cow eats, you are contributing to climate change! :shocked:
Maybe this is why Chris Christie lost weight? :evil:
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We pay more per gallon for ethanol free gas but we also get 10-12% better gas mileage vs the corn-gas. Due to the better gas mileage, the total cost for miles driven is almost exactly the same between the two.
We can find ethanol free at four stations that are within five miles of our home so for the last few years, that's all we use. When we first moved to SC from San Diego, eleven years ago, I bought a new, zero cut lawn mower and several Stihl two stroke power lawn tools. We used E10 (not knowing any better) and within six months, every one of the lawn tools (including the mower) had problems with their carburetors. That's when we discovered non ethanol and have never had another problem with any of our lawn equipment.
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Actually, the science says cow farts are a measurable problem - so if you weigh what a cow does and eat what a cow eats, you are contributing to climate change! :shocked:
Maybe this is why Chris Christie lost weight? :evil:
Actually on some days my wife swears that I am the sole cause of climate warming. I plead the fifth!
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I use ethanol free in my bikes because it stores better.
FWIW - the fleet expert at a large company I knew made sure all unleaded was used within six months of purchase, and all diesel within one year. That was 4-5 years ago so maybe things have changed.
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Pure-gas.org is only as accurate as its users make it. If you spot an error, all you have to do is log on (it's FREE) and post a correction.
I buy gas at several local stations, both E0 and E10, and I try to test it each time. Every time I've purchased E0, it has tested as zero alcohol. The E10 lately has been between 5 and 8% alcohol. I can get 87 and 90 octane E0; I've been told 91 and higher E0 is no longer produced.
I don't worry so much about E10 in my Buick (aside from the lower fuel mileage) but my mower won't run on E10 longer than 30 minutes, and then it won't restart until I drain the tank and refill.
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I just found an ethanol free gas station that offers racing gasoline VP 108 at the pump for $10/gallon. For New England prices that's good, but I think this is leaded, so that's another issue.
I'm talking about Columbus Energies in Swansea, MA; http://columbusenergies.com/ (http://columbusenergies.com/)
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I just found an ethanol free gas station that offers racing gasoline VP 108 at the pump for $10/gallon. For New England prices that's good, but I think this is leaded, so that's another issue.
I'm talking about Columbus Energies in Swansea, MA; http://columbusenergies.com/ (http://columbusenergies.com/)
Guess they are near enough to Seekonk Speedway that they have the customers for that product.
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Guess they are near enough to Seekonk Speedway that they have the customers for that product.
Ron,
Makes sense, I forgot about that. Sadly, I think "VP 108" on the pump refers to VP fuel C12, which is leaded. So not good for my Guzzi, unless I want to foul my catalytic converters.
I've got several vintage bikes (and a vintage sidevalve snowblower) that were designed for leaded non-ethanol. $10/gallon is cheap for race gas, but it's still a little costly for routine operations.
Joe
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This thread reads more like a religious revival than a serious fuel discussion. It is also reminiscent of discussions about food "allergies" and "cleansing" diets.
Ethanol is bad for aluminum?? Show me the facts.
Ethanol-containing fuel doesn't store well? Since when? And since when should anyone be storing fuel exposed to the atmosphere, where it can evaporate, anyway?
Labeling of gas pumps? In my area, the stickers only state that the fuel "may contain up to 10% ethanol". That means it might contain as little as 0%. Not very informative.
Better mileage with ethanol-free? Maybe a bit, but not more miles per dollar. Anyway, both my car (Prius) and motorcycle (V7II) get better than 45 mpg, so I'm not obsessing about fuel mileage.
Sorry, I'll remain a skeptic, and my cars and bikes will continue to run just fine on fuel that "may contain up to 10% ethanol". I don't worrying about gumming up the engines on my cars, motorcycles (fuel sits in the tank just fine over winter), or emergency generator (fuel sits in the tank for many months, sometimes years, between uses). I've got more important things to worry about.
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Many small planes can be recertified to run on hi-octane auto fuel ("mogas"), but not my Piper Comanche. Piper and the FAA were explicit that ethanol would damage the rubber bits in the fuel system, and since the fuel tanks were rubber bladders stuffed into the wings . . .
So I'm not at all surprised to hear that ethanol will cause rubber hoses, o-rings, gaskets and the like to soften or swell.
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Maybe our skeptic should run a vehicle on straight alcohol. Then we'll see if he remains a skeptic.
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Many small planes can be recertified to run on hi-octane auto fuel ("mogas"), but not my Piper Comanche. Piper and the FAA were explicit that ethanol would damage the rubber bits in the fuel system, and since the fuel tanks were rubber bladders stuffed into the wings . . .
So I'm not at all surprised to hear that ethanol will cause rubber hoses, o-rings, gaskets and the like to soften or swell.
Well, all bets are off for antique planes, as for antique cars and bikes, but, this being the 21st century, all recent rubber hoses, o-rings, gaskets and the like are made of modern materials that can withstand ethanol.
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Maybe our skeptic should run a vehicle on straight alcohol. Then we'll see if he remains a skeptic.
You're stretching the argument beyond the breaking point. Maybe someone should try to prove that water is nontoxic by immersing himself in the stuff for an hour.
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Where we live it's 4 season toys and power equipment.
Stop by any small engine repair shop and ask how many carbs are serviced due to ethanol and/or how many fuel lines are replaced.
Yes, I know your bike is injected. They clog, too or get partially obstructed.
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I'll pose my "usual" question: is it the ethanol that's causing the problems, or a different mix of additives used because ethanol is in the fuel? I believe it more the latter than the former: a toxic swill of additives is really responsible for most of the issues folks blame on ethanol.
That said, I would rather not have ethanol in my fuel, but have had zero problems running it in any of my vehicles or equipment. <shrug>
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I'll pose my "usual" question: is it the ethanol that's causing the problems, or a different mix of additives used because ethanol is in the fuel? I believe it more the latter than the former: a toxic swill of additives is really responsible for most of the issues folks blame on ethanol.
That said, I would rather not have ethanol in my fuel, but have had zero problems running it in any of my vehicles or equipment. <shrug>
Fuel tank swelling is due to the ethanol in American fuel (Ducati, Guzzi, others), and it's also responsible for accelerated corrosion of zinc, aluminum, and certain organic (rubber, etc) parts. This is worsened by ethanol's hydroscopic tendancy to pull water from the atmosphere, and to decompose.
I can cite numerous academic papers, for example: http://papers.sae.org/971648/ (http://papers.sae.org/971648/)
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....I am living in West Washington State, where are the good places to get ethanol free gas?... Thanks for the help.
You must be close to a marina or places where boaters buy the gas for their boats. I just returned from Minnesota, where everyone has at least one boat, and found non-ethanol gas, generally 90 or 91 octane in many of the stations. I bought gas for my reserve MSR containers at the marina in St Ignace, MI.
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As I said you should run a vehicle on E100 for a while.
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As I said you should run a vehicle on E100 for a while.
I save that for martinis.
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Fuel tank swelling is due to the ethanol in American fuel (Ducati, Guzzi, others), and it's also responsible for accelerated corrosion of zinc, aluminum, and certain organic (rubber, etc) parts. This is worsened by ethanol's hydroscopic tendancy to pull water from the atmosphere, and to decompose.
I can cite numerous academic papers, for example: http://papers.sae.org/971648/ (http://papers.sae.org/971648/)
That paper is about corrosion. Can you cite one about tank swelling, and in particular the role of water that is "pulled" from the atmosphere by ethanol? Does water permeate the plastic, causing it to expand?
Moto
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My intend for this was find enthnal free gas and fill it up for off season storage
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My intend for this was find enthnal free gas and fill it up for off season storage
Your need to do this might depend on how long your off season is. In my case, in New England, it runs from some time in December to some time in April. I have never worried about the fuel in the tank "aging" during this interval, and I've never experienced any problems with: 1) fouled injectors; 2) rust in tank; 3) swelling or clogged fuel filter; 4) swelling or disintegrating rubber parts. Maybe with E15 or higher ethanol levels, these things might happen, but not with the E10 I use. As far as I'm concerned, this issue is urban folklore, along with black cats, walking under ladders, and stepping on sidewalk cracks.
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Urban folklore......riiii iiiiight. lots of small engine shops would tell you otherwise.
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The only small engines that I have seen that had trouble were the 2 strokes with the 'pumper' carbs. The rubber diaphragm goes out and the other little rubber bits give up. I do run the expensive stuff in them (premixed fuel). Note: Stihl does have warnings about alcohol fuel. Their caution is to not STORE it with alcohol in the system. If you run the tank dry before storage it is supposed to be fine.
My 4 stoke lawn equipment has always worked fine on E10. They are all less than 10yrs old so maybe the mfgs changed the bits to conform to alcohol. I do add stabil to it cause they sit for so long I don't want the varnish buildup. My 4 stroke generator has also been fine on E10, even after not being run for 5 or 6 months.
My 'antique' motorcycle has never had a problem with E10. If it does get stored for more than a few weeks I'll put some stabil in it as well.
If I had any real old 4 stroke lawn gear or 70's/earlier vehicles, I might use alcohol free. Then again, I'd probably just rebuild the carbs with new gaskets and such and run it on E10.
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On the Triumph, if I neglect to drain the carb before storing for more than a month, the pilot (idle) jet needs cleaning before it will start again. This is a fact. What's not a fact: One of the local vintage twin guys told me this is because of ethanol -- he says the evaporation of the alcohol speeds the evaporation of other volatiles, accelerating the accumulation of gum. Only have his word for that process.
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Yep, but, I suspect you'd have that problem with non-alcohol fuels as well. If you let the fuel in a carb bowl evaporate then it will leave nasty varnish deposits. E10 means that 10% of the fuel will evaporate faster.
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Yep, but, I suspect you'd have that problem with non-alcohol fuels as well. If you let the fuel in a cab bowl evaporate then it will leave nasty varnish deposits. E10 means that 10% of the fuel will evaporate faster.
Yep, I started working around engines in the late-1950s, long before ethanol, and carbs got just as gummed up then as they do now.
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That paper is about corrosion. Can you cite one about tank swelling, and in particular the role of water that is "pulled" from the atmosphere by ethanol? Does water permeate the plastic, causing it to expand?
Moto
I have a VII Sport with Nylon tank, the tank has expanded to the point the forks hit it at full lock.
It's just about impossible to get the rear bolt in place because it's grown in length.
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I have a VII Sport with Nylon tank, the tank has expanded to the point the forks hit it at full lock.
It's just about impossible to get the rear bolt in place because it's grown in length.
Those nylon tanks do seem to have been an unmitigated disaster. Are we sure the swelling is caused by the ethanol? For several years, MBTE was used as an octane-boosting additive. That nasty stuff is an ether, more aggressive than ethanol. Could that be the culprit?
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Spent too much money on replacing small engine carbs when I didn't use them enough. I have no idea if it's from ethanol or from additives. No problems when I've used Sta-Bil and either Star Tron or SeaFoam. I'm dealing with a small amount of evidence and correlation rather than causation since I didn't do a controlled experiment, but no way I'm letting modern gas sit for long untreated.
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I have a VII Sport with Nylon tank, the tank has expanded to the point the forks hit it at full lock.
It's just about impossible to get the rear bolt in place because it's grown in length.
Those nylon tanks do seem to have been an unmitigated disaster. Are we sure the swelling is caused by the ethanol? For several years, MBTE was used as an octane-boosting additive. That nasty stuff is an ether, more aggressive than ethanol. Could that be the culprit?
We've had a couple of posts in the last few days that seem to indicate it is water infiltrating the plastic of the tank, causing it to swell, with the ethanol playing a facilitating role by attracting water to the gas. I believe this is probably true, but I'm asking for citations of authoritative sources so I can read more about it.
Sign216 said he/she could cite "numerous academic papers."
I am not disputing the account. Just curious to learn more.
Moto
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This may just happen around here(Memphis) but I have heard that ethanol is added at the time the truck exits the refinery, giving rise to the notice on all the gas pumps that there MAY be up to 10% ethanol in the gas being sold.
No mainstream company (Shell, Chevron, et al) can be relied on to produce ethanol-free gas unless it is specifically labeled as being ethanol-free. The claim that their premium grades are ethanol-free is a modern myth, since the base stock is the same as their other grades and the additives control the final octane ratings. That being said, some mainstream stations do offer ethanol-free fuel - but it has to have a separate pump and nozzle, and a separate storage tank, making it a costly proposition for that station. Many modern pumps are 'blending' pumps, with two tanks (regular and premium) and the mid-grade(s) being created by drawing a mix from the two tanks together. Ethanol-free just can't be delivered in that scenario.
Another site to check is http://www.buyrealgas.com/index.html (http://www.buyrealgas.com/index.html) . I would say if a location shows on both sites, and shows signs of traffic, it's likely worth a try.
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We pay more per gallon for ethanol free gas but we also get 10-12% better gas mileage vs the corn-gas. Due to the better gas mileage, the total cost for miles driven is almost exactly the same between the two.
We can find ethanol free at four stations that are within five miles of our home so for the last few years, that's all we use. When we first moved to SC from San Diego, eleven years ago, I bought a new, zero cut lawn mower and several Stihl two stroke power lawn tools. We used E10 (not knowing any better) and within six months, every one of the lawn tools (including the mower) had problems with their carburetors. That's when we discovered non ethanol and have never had another problem with any of our lawn equipment.
I struggle with this. Can't see the10-12% better mileage. If alcohol had zero energy and the gas has 10% alcohol, then I could see a 10% increase in fuel mileage but since alcohol has about 80-90% the energy of gasoline it seems the maximum increase in mileage would have to be closer to 2%.
Unless I am missing something.
JB
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I can tell you from experience it takes almost 3x the alcohol to make the same horsepower as gas.
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I struggle with this. Can't see the10-12% better mileage. If alcohol had zero energy and the gas has 10% alcohol, then I could see a 10% increase in fuel mileage but since alcohol has about 80-90% the energy of gasoline it seems the maximum increase in mileage would have to be closer to 2%.
Unless I am missing something.
JB
This has been discussed previously and others have reported the exact increase in mpg when using non ethanol vs E10.
My former Breva V7 and my present V7 have both had two tanks of E10 run through them when I first bought them and then two successive tanks of non ethanol; The riding conditions were the same and each got over 10% better mileage. (both consistently get 51-53 mpg with non ethanol) Same thing with our automobiles. We have taken trips and couldn't find non ethanol so we were forced to use E10. Gas mileage was worse each time this happened.
As I said earlier, others have run the same test and found the same results that we did. I also have friends that I've told about this and they have tried it and also had the same results.
To me, there's absolutely no reason to put E10 in your vehicle if non ethanol is available. The stuff has no value other than political payback (which is how it got mandated by the clowns in DC to be forced down people's throats as a certain percentage of all gasoline produced for sale in the USA)
*FWIW; here's a link to a discussion re. gas mileage using non ethanol vs E10 that I found with a quick Google search:
https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/ethanol-free-gas-for-2-weeks.217978/
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....To me, there's absolutely no reason to put E10 in your vehicle if non ethanol is available. The stuff has no value other than political payback (which is how it got mandated by the clowns in DC to be forced down people's throats as a certain percentage of all gasoline produced for sale in the USA)
While I agree with the sentiment, there IS a reason to use E10: Even if E0 gives 10% higher mileage, it's economically disadvantageous if it costs more than 10% more than E10 (of course, assuming that E10 doesn't cause other problems, like in my case, with a steel tank and modern rubber parts in the engine).
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While I agree with the sentiment, there IS a reason to use E10: Even if E0 gives 10% higher mileage, it's economically disadvantageous if it costs more than 10% more than E10 (of course, assuming that E10 doesn't cause other problems, like in my case, with a steel tank and modern rubber parts in the engine).
Your math is totally flawed. Do an actual calculation and you'll find that this is not true. The costs are almost exactly the same for the number of miles traveled.
Here's a real cost calculation using mid grade E10 vs mid grade non ethanol E10 in the area where we live:
I consistently get 51 mpg (and sometimes more) vs 46 on the V7 (twin throttle bodies)
Using non ethanol: 51 mpg X 4 gallons equals 204 miles
Using E10: 46 mpg X 4 gallons equals 184 miles
So, if I travel exactly 200 miles, here' the actual cost to fill up with the amount of gasoline consumed. It costs .09 cents more for me to use non ethanol vs E10 and many times, I'll get as much as 53 mpg which makes it even cheaper per mile traveled than E10.
200 miles @ 46 mpg = 4.35 gallons X 2.39 per gallon = $10.40
200 miles @ 51 mpg = 3.9 gallons X 2.69 per gallon = $10.49
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I plow the snow in my driveway with a Ford 9N tractor (1940) about every two years I have to fill the gas tank. I don't know if that engine is too old to care or too stupid but it don't seem to care if the gas is old or E10. My vintage bike is a MotoGuzzi Eldorado (1972) it has never had a problem with E10 or straight gas it runs the same and gets the same mileage. I've never used stabil in my life, I classify it as a snake oil. Bike sits all winter, charge the battery in the spring and it will start with the same old E10 gas it had in the fall. Tractor is the same way, It will sit until the snow flies again, charge the battery and it starts right up.
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We've had a couple of posts in the last few days that seem to indicate it is water infiltrating the plastic of the tank, causing it to swell, with the ethanol playing a facilitating role by attracting water to the gas. I believe this is probably true, but I'm asking for citations of authoritative sources so I can read more about it.
Sign216 said he/she could cite "numerous academic papers."
I am not disputing the account. Just curious to learn more.
Moto
Moto,
Here are three sources regarding ethanol's affinity for water.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwj8gpbplMzNAhVHkh4KHYemCIIQFggeMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnationalpetroleum.net%2FEthanol-Water-Phase-Separation-facts.pdf&usg=AFQjCNG_GuHo-Qz_xec4KmP-Vb5zpaMLWA&sig2=QRH_VrVH-yUK-dKKqlIhcA&cad=rja (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwj8gpbplMzNAhVHkh4KHYemCIIQFggeMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnationalpetroleum.net%2FEthanol-Water-Phase-Separation-facts.pdf&usg=AFQjCNG_GuHo-Qz_xec4KmP-Vb5zpaMLWA&sig2=QRH_VrVH-yUK-dKKqlIhcA&cad=rja)
http://www.mossmotors.com/SiteGraphics/Pages/ethanol.html (http://www.mossmotors.com/SiteGraphics/Pages/ethanol.html)
http://www.lcbamarketing.com/phase_separation_in_ethanol_blen.htm (http://www.lcbamarketing.com/phase_separation_in_ethanol_blen.htm)
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Moto,
Here are three sources regarding ethanol's affinity for water.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwj8gpbplMzNAhVHkh4KHYemCIIQFggeMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnationalpetroleum.net%2FEthanol-Water-Phase-Separation-facts.pdf&usg=AFQjCNG_GuHo-Qz_xec4KmP-Vb5zpaMLWA&sig2=QRH_VrVH-yUK-dKKqlIhcA&cad=rja (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwj8gpbplMzNAhVHkh4KHYemCIIQFggeMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnationalpetroleum.net%2FEthanol-Water-Phase-Separation-facts.pdf&usg=AFQjCNG_GuHo-Qz_xec4KmP-Vb5zpaMLWA&sig2=QRH_VrVH-yUK-dKKqlIhcA&cad=rja)
http://www.mossmotors.com/SiteGraphics/Pages/ethanol.html (http://www.mossmotors.com/SiteGraphics/Pages/ethanol.html)
http://www.lcbamarketing.com/phase_separation_in_ethanol_blen.htm (http://www.lcbamarketing.com/phase_separation_in_ethanol_blen.htm)
Thanks, Sign.
Those are good papers about phase separation, but I don't see any mention of the particular idea that I was interested in: that water in the gas migrates into the structure of the plastic tank, causing the distortion. Maybe it wasn't you who suggested that, looking back. I confused your more general statement about effects of water with this specific claim from Hugh Straub, in the recent Breva 750 Success thread:
Actually, the ethanol attracts water which in turn is absorbed by the nylon tank, causing the tank to swell. Left unchecked, the tank can swell and break on its mountings. MG was not the only marque seduced into using nylon tanks to create swervy lines. Reportedly no problem with pure gasoline, which is becoming increasingly difficult to find.
I think I asked him for more details, too. I've been reading about water permeation through plastic lately, and was intrigued.
Moto
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Moto,
Here are three sources regarding ethanol's affinity for water.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwj8gpbplMzNAhVHkh4KHYemCIIQFggeMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnationalpetroleum.net%2FEthanol-Water-Phase-Separation-facts.pdf&usg=AFQjCNG_GuHo-Qz_xec4KmP-Vb5zpaMLWA&sig2=QRH_VrVH-yUK-dKKqlIhcA&cad=rja (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwj8gpbplMzNAhVHkh4KHYemCIIQFggeMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnationalpetroleum.net%2FEthanol-Water-Phase-Separation-facts.pdf&usg=AFQjCNG_GuHo-Qz_xec4KmP-Vb5zpaMLWA&sig2=QRH_VrVH-yUK-dKKqlIhcA&cad=rja)
http://www.mossmotors.com/SiteGraphics/Pages/ethanol.html (http://www.mossmotors.com/SiteGraphics/Pages/ethanol.html)
http://www.lcbamarketing.com/phase_separation_in_ethanol_blen.htm (http://www.lcbamarketing.com/phase_separation_in_ethanol_blen.htm)
Add to this the fact that Nylon 6 (the material the tanks are moulded from) is hygroscopic and can absorb up to 9.5% of its weight in water which causes the plastic to swell. So when you have the ethanol absorbing moisture, then phase separation you have the potential for the tanks to grow if the overall sealing is poor or "bubbles" to occur where there are small flaws in the internal sealing of the tank.
The good news is that if the tanks is left in a dry environment the moisture will migrate back out of the plastic and the parts will revert to their original size.
The bad news is if you leave the bike stationary for long periods of time you are more likely to have a problem.
I think that the main reason why some people suffer and some don't despite similar usage and conditions is purely down to the variation in the quality of the sealing in manufacture.
Steve
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Here in Iowa most all the Casey's stations sell both regular (87) and premium (91) ethanol free gas. I run it in everything. Maybe its just a belief thing, but works for me. Most of my engines are older (including my 25 year old craftsman riding mower) and run great. Mechanic friend of mine told me that all these older engines were designed to run gasoline, period. To me it's worth the extra 40 cents a gallon.
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Ok, this probably is a dead horse, but I researched the Internet, there is still no defiant answer to this. I am living in West Washington State, where are the good places to get ethanol free gas? How reliable is pure-gas.org? I notice the gas station that listed on the pure-gas.org near my house does not have much traffic, i mean there are not many people buy gas over there, their gas may be really old. Is Shell V-Power premium is still ethanol free? Thanks for the help.
For 5 gallon/portable cans I fill them at the Des Moines Marina not far from Tacoma. For vehicles I go to the Grange in Issaquah 500 yards off of I-90. I stockpile 30 gallons or so with Sta-bil for the older bikes and for when the 'big one' (earthquake) hits. Got a 14 gallon gas caddy for the bikes and mounted it high enough that minimal pumping is required. Hope this helps, Toukow
(http://thumb.ibb.co/hd9Eka/IMG_0090_001.jpg) (http://ibb.co/hd9Eka)
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Could this be an additional cause of hard starting carb engines with gas that was stored in the tank too long?
Because the bulk of the fuel is made from heavy molecules that require the engine to reach 150° F, or higher to vaporize, a small amount of lighter molecules, that vaporize near ambient air temperature, is included in the blend. Because there so little of these light molecules you need to flood the engine with fuel to get them into the engine to create enough energy to turn the engine over, and keep it going until the engine warms up.
The lack of them, either from stale gas where all of the light molecules have vaporized off naturally or the fuel mixture is so lean there is not enough of these, and slightly heavier molecules to keep the engine running until the engine is warm enough to vaporize the very heavy molecules that make up the bulk of the fuel.
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A few years back, Dave Searles of Motorcycle Consumer News did several articles about ethanol laced fuels. His assertions were quite damning of the stuff and the problems he listed were manifold:
*E10 runs about 3% leaner than pure gas...E15 nearly 5%.
*The hygroscopic nature of ethanol introduces water to the fuel system. This results in several really bad conditions...alumin um oxide (the abrasive used in sandpaper) forms wherever the water lingers around aluminum (like a carburetor float bowl) and some rubber and plastic components swell or otherwise become misshaped.
We have a small farm and we have an equipment graveyard of line trimmers, mowers, power washers, and chainsaws. i have had to replace most of the fuel system in my boat, 4-wheeler, and currently my '03 Bonneville. The US has stuffed it's landfills with broken machines, so we can use a fuel that actually costs more to produce and results in more pollution due to inefficiency and the increased use of weed-killers, pesticides, and petroleum based fertilizers. All so the farm lobby can continue to produce GMO corn. The American people are being taken for a ride...
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A few (ok 10 or 12) years ago I worked in industrial first aid supply. A growing market at the time was the ethanol plants popping up all over. I got pretty chummy with some of the personnel and found out that one little known cost of producing ethanol is the enormous amount of fresh water consumed in the process. IIRC about 700 gals per 1 gal of corn juice. Mostly for washing. Just like home brewing or any chemistry, your equipment needs to be CLEAN. Have to agree that it is a boondoggle; without federal mandates and $$ it would not survive. But perhaps it will lead to better developments in biofuels down the road.
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A few (ok 10 or 12) years ago I worked in industrial first aid supply. A growing market at the time was the ethanol plants popping up all over. I got pretty chummy with some of the personnel and found out that one little known cost of producing ethanol is the enormous amount of fresh water consumed in the process. IIRC about 700 gals per 1 gal of corn juice. Mostly for washing. Just like home brewing or any chemistry, your equipment needs to be CLEAN. Have to agree that it is a boondoggle; without federal mandates and $$ it would not survive. But perhaps it will lead to better developments in biofuels down the road.
Yes! Dangerous business to undervalue water versus fuel.
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The stories of E10 fuel destroying fuel systems always comes up in these conversation...Then there's people that have no problems with E10 in any engines....Some have been using E10 for years and didn't know it...They they realize they have been using it for years and all of a sudden they have problems..
Non ethanol 91 octane is readily available where I live...I use it in chainsaws and the small 4 cycles engines but to be honest my wife's small junky two stroke tiller was the only engine affected by the E10..Just running non ethanol in it cleaned it up....
About 5 years ago I was working on an older Chevy truck with a carburetor...I had pulled off the carb and some fuel spilled into the intake manifold..I just threw a rag over the opening and ordered parts to fix the carb....I knew it was E10 fuel but the carb was clean inside...A few days later I go to install the carb . I remove the rag and look into the manifold for stray parts....It still looks wet inside...A wipe with my finger says it's dry...The E10 evaporated and left a residue...I poured a little fresh gas into the intake and the residue washed away.....I believe what happens is if the engine is used infrequently the residue gets "cured" and fresh gas won't dissolve it and it can plug up orifices.....
I think how much problem you have or don't have depends on how often the engine is run and the type of carburetor...Some may be affected more than others...
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For older bikes, a reasonable (though illegal) alternative is aviation gas, the 100LL variety. LL is low lead, so this is verboten in bikes with emissions equipment. Also illegal because you don't pay road taxes on it. Nonetheless very expensive -- around here $4 a gallon. But if the goal is zero ethanol, this is where you're guaranteed to find it.
Low lead aviation fuel has a lot more lead than leaded automotive gasoline from the days of old. Not a great choice for regular use in non aviation motors.
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Ok, I respect that. I also understand that I have minimal riding experience. I am just over 800,000 miles on Guzzis and about 200,000 plus on jap and other bikes. So I am not a Karl Werth or a Ken Hand so my experience should bbe taken with doubt. I have run 85 octane to 105. Ethanol and pure gas, I have NEVER seen any substantial difference in any fuel I have run. My big blocks with carbs and points are always around 50-53 mpg, the injected always mid to low 40s. My small blocks are all injected and low 50s. Wind and speed are my real deals on mileage variations.
Injected bikes, cold weather can mess them up.
But hopefully with more experience riding, I can finally see these huge increases using pure gas! I can't wait!!!!
JB
This has been discussed previously and others have reported the exact increase in mpg when using non ethanol vs E10.
My former Breva V7 and my present V7 have both had two tanks of E10 run through them when I first bought them and then two successive tanks of non ethanol; The riding conditions were the same and each got over 10% better mileage. (both consistently get 51-53 mpg with non ethanol) Same thing with our automobiles. We have taken trips and couldn't find non ethanol so we were forced to use E10. Gas mileage was worse each time this happened.
As I said earlier, others have run the same test and found the same results that we did. I also have friends that I've told about this and they have tried it and also had the same results.
To me, there's absolutely no reason to put E10 in your vehicle if non ethanol is available. The stuff has no value other than political payback (which is how it got mandated by the clowns in DC to be forced down people's throats as a certain percentage of all gasoline produced for sale in the USA)
*FWIW; here's a link to a discussion re. gas mileage using non ethanol vs E10 that I found with a quick Google search:
https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/ethanol-free-gas-for-2-weeks.217978/
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To answer the original question: in Whatcom county most Union 76 stations offer non-ethanol 90 octane and some of the farm suppliers have non-ethanol in all octanes.
Ethanol raises the octane of the fuel cheaply so even without subsidies, ethanol is likely to remain in the fuel: http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/02/10/466010209/the-shocking-truth-about-americas-ethanol-law-it-doesnt-matter-for-now
Looking at a bottle of octane booster labeled "no ethanol" it listed IPA as an ingredient - another name for Isopropyl Alcohol: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isopropyl_alcohol So I wonder if non-ethanol fuel contains other forms of alcohol?
Ethanol and pure gas, I have NEVER seen any substantial difference in any fuel I have run. My big blocks with carbs and points are always around 50-53 mpg, the injected always mid to low 40s. My small blocks are all injected and low 50s. Wind and speed are my real deals on mileage variations.
John,
I only noticed ethanol was leaner than non-ethanol when running ethanol through a carb with too rich a main jet when I got a tank of non-ethanol while running at high elevation and it made the bike run with less power wide open. The difference was obvious, but only because the main was too rich.
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Many , many years ago, some short track racing bikes were run on alchohol 100%. The bikes were only short track (maybe speedway) because they had to be jetted so rich compared to running petrol.
The point of all this is that they also had to run brass or bronze carburetors because the alchohol would corrode the mazak metal carburetors. I don't believe that this corrosion was caused by water in the fuel as it would have been drained after racing.
I remember this vaguely as being discussed in "Tuning For Speed" book by Phil Irving.( Phil was the main designer behind the VINCENT motorcycle engines.)
Cheers all
Brian :grin: :wink:
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^^^ Alcohol used for racing has traditionally been Methanol that is far more corrosive than Ethanol...
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Ok, I respect that. I also understand that I have minimal riding experience. I am just over 800,000 miles on Guzzis and about 200,000 plus on jap and other bikes. So I am not a Karl Werth or a Ken Hand so my experience should bbe taken with doubt. I have run 85 octane to 105. Ethanol and pure gas, I have NEVER seen any substantial difference in any fuel I have run. My big blocks with carbs and points are always around 50-53 mpg, the injected always mid to low 40s. My small blocks are all injected and low 50s. Wind and speed are my real deals on mileage variations.
Injected bikes, cold weather can mess them up.
But hopefully with more experience riding, I can finally see these huge increases using pure gas! I can't wait!!!!
JB
John, I also have over 800,000 miles under my belt, riding motorcycles (probably closer to 1 million miles). If you read my other post, I showed an actual calculation that reflected my use of ethanol vs non-ethanol. If you don't wish to accept those findings (and those of others who have posted, it's a free country but there's no need for sarcasm re. what others have found to have worked for them. If you don't care to partake of the information, just keep on doing what you've been doing. (no sarcasm intended, whatsoever).
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Low lead aviation fuel has a lot more lead than leaded automotive gasoline from the days of old. Not a great choice for regular use in non aviation motors.
Please explain why other than the obvious lead pollution, damge to convertors on newer stuff and increased cost...
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This discussion is always interesting. Someone usually has zero problems with E-10 and they never do any Sta-Bil or such or any winter/summer storage stuff.
Then there are those of us in the business who see problems often enough to take preventative measures as a normal course. And, then, there are those professionals who never see a problem.
At my friends 4 season power sports shop the techs make a fair paycheck cleaning winter toys in summer and vice versa. Bikes, sleds, 4 wheelers, and commercial mowers.
Interesting.
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Na$car had problems switching to E15.
One team has their own brand of oil made for them. You can buy it for your race car. A friend did. His engine immediately grenaded. Built another, it grenaded. Built another and ran it on race gas, it was fine.
Every time h used it in an alcohol fueld engine he had prblems. The na$car team was having the same problems with their own engines on E15.
Hecontacted them and they acknowledged the problem. Seems the oil didn't like the blow by from the rings, even running E15. On E 100 you are literally running the engine on the verge of hydrolocking and it washes the cyliders with fuel and the oil sump fills with alcohol. Their oil couldn't withstand the dilution and they had lubrication failure.
He switched brands of oil and no more problems. In fact, he now drains the oil into a metal pan, burns off the alcohol and reuses the oil.
And he uses brass bodied carbs due to the corrosion.
Avgas isn't formulated for street vehicles which must run well at idle as ell as at varying speeds and loads, where aviation engines normally rev slow and run at constant speed. The vapor point between av and mogas isdifferent. Many other differences make avgas a poor choice for autos.
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Yep, some have problems and some don't.
All depends on the exact composition of the rubber stuff in your fuel path and how long the vehicle sits between uses.
Stihl is very strict about fuels. IF you use E10 then it must be 'fresh', ie, less than a month old. And the tank should be drained and engine run until all fuel is gone from the system when you put it away. And, yes, I have 'killed' a two stroke carb using that stuff. I just buy the premixed fuel since I use so little of it (1/2 gal lasts a season).
Since I have had it (2009 and 60k miles) the Goose has never run on anything but E10. It is an 84 model and the carbs have not been rebuilt to my knowledge, ever. It rarely sits for more than a couple of weeks. I also do not turn off the petcocks so the bowls don't run dry.
Mileage? Don't know and really don't care. I am not going searching around looking for alcohol free when I am out on the road. You can spend more money going out of your way looking for non-alcohol than you save in using it.
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There's a station in Ballard if you live in the Seattle area...
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Your need to do this might depend on how long your off season is. In my case, in New England, it runs from some time in December to some time in April. I have never worried about the fuel in the tank "aging" during this interval, and I've never experienced any problems with: 1) fouled injectors; 2) rust in tank; 3) swelling or clogged fuel filter; 4) swelling or disintegrating rubber parts. Maybe with E15 or higher ethanol levels, these things might happen, but not with the E10 I use. As far as I'm concerned, this issue is urban folklore, along with black cats, walking under ladders, and stepping on sidewalk cracks.
There are a few problems with the ethanol that were well documented in the marine industry about a decade ago when the proliferation of E10 started causing havoc in boat yards. There were industry articles and technical service bulletins from manufacturers.
Potential problems include:
* Ethanol acts as a solvent, so if you introduce it to an older motor which has any varnish buildup in the tank or float bowl (from seasons of fuel evaporation) then you will likely cause clogging of filters or jets as the partially dissolved deposits break free.
* Ethanol attacks some materials, like fiberglass, which was actually used for fuel tanks in some old marine applications, not to mention you don't want to spill it on hulls for the same reason.
* Ethanol is hygroscopic, which means it is more likely to suffer from water-contamination if so exposed.
And as discussed you do get lower mileage which can reduce the range of a given bike.
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Those nylon tanks do seem to have been an unmitigated disaster. Are we sure the swelling is caused by the ethanol? For several years, MBTE was used as an octane-boosting additive. That nasty stuff is an ether, more aggressive than ethanol. Could that be the culprit?
AFAIK I've never seen a study that proves it's the E10 specifically that causes tank swelling on certain bikes with plastic fuel tanks.
But there is anecdotal evidence that it could be the E10 or something that is generally added with E10 that is not used with E0. Certainly talk on the Ducati forums included people whose tanks never swelled on E0, and conversely I don't recall ever hearing of one that did. Also the problem seemed to be relegated to the US and NOT the EU which was not using E10.
So though correlation is not causation there does seem to be a suggestion that it could be the ethanol.
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We just returned from a schoolgirl 4,800 mile ride and used nothing but cheap gas from a variety of stations including a few that had gravel parking lots and no name pumps. Beaver's V-7 and my Big Breva both ran fine.
I guess you could have two identical Guzzis with one running cheap and the other running the best on identical conditions. It is a proven fact that KERA members get the best mileage. I'll lay money on that fact.
Tex
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The Grange in Issaquah sells ethanol free gas