Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: bigpants on July 01, 2016, 09:54:40 AM
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Hiya folk's. Quick question , my bikes sat unused and not running for a couple of years. Ive recently fitted a new loom and it started straight up. However the battery keeps going flat and the flatter it gets the more a misfire occurs. Would u expect a low battery to actually cause a misfire or stop a running engine ?
Ta.
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Yes.
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Yes.
:1: Either your coils will start producing a crappy spark or the ECU will start doing odd things like shutting down.
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Thanks for that. Im charging the battery now but I'll have to wait till it starts to go flat to check if the misfire comes back. It seems like both cylinders flicker on off for half a second every few mins to start with and then gets more frequent until it completely stops.
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Get the bike running and check for voltage with 3k rpm or so. I like to see 13.5 or more. You may have to clean ALL connections in the charging circuit and make sure the voltage regulator is working. Good luck.
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Or charge the battery then do a load test.
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Ok the battery has been charged and the bike fired straight up. I'll take it for a spin when ive done the domestic chores and see if the misfire has gone. If it was a dodgy voltage regulator would there be any other symptoms?
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Ok the battery has been charged and the bike fired straight up. I'll take it for a spin when ive done the domestic chores and see if the misfire has gone. If it was a dodgy voltage regulator would there be any other symptoms?
Depends if the regulator allows overcharge, then you might start to blow bulbs and your battery could get hot then toast, if its just not charging then the battery will just run down and you'll get a misfire followed in short order by the bike stopping altogether
Easy way to check put a voltmeter across the battery and rev the bike up to around 2.5-3k WITH A FULLY CHARGED GOOD BATTERY, you should be seeing somewhere between 13.5-14 Volts as a rule of thumb.
The difficulty occurs if you are not sure if the battery is good, you could check the Volts on the battery at idle, if its just been charged and its good you should see about 12.5-13 volts, once you rev you should see that rising.
The other thing is it could be a crap battery or you could have a parasitic draw, failed diode in the regulator would do that, if its the same as my 1100 then the reg/rec is all one unit
How old and what type of battery? How long does it take for the battery to get flat from just being left in the bake?
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A load test on a charged battery would eliminate the battery. If you don't have a load tester take it to Autozone, O'Reilly's etc.
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The regulator is the common failure with those systems. It needs a good ground ran from the regulator case to an engine bolt. It's probably too late for that, though. Do that on the new one. :)
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Ok, by now I assume you've load tested the battery and it's good. Start it up and check between the yellow wires coming off the alternator. They should show about 45 volts AC from memory. If so, the regulator is bad.
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:1:
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Thanx for all the replies. Latest news is the battery on the running bike measure 11.8v and 12.7v off the bike. The voltage drops enough to stop the bike in about 10miles. I tried to check the output of the two yellow wires but wasnt sure if I was using the scale on the ac mutlimeter correctly as I got either4.48v or 44.8v ac but based on what chuck said im guessing I got 44.8v. Guess this means reg/rec is shot ? Bike has just come back from the shop and worked fine before but they have moved and remounted my reg/rec so im wondering if that was the cause?
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The Ducati regs use the case of the regulator as the earth reference I'd make sure the bolts clean tight free of corrosion and have good metal to metal contact if you are feeling paranoid run an earth wire from it. Although in general if something fails on the Ducati charging system 99.9% of the time its the reg, plenty of aftermarket options available the OEM ones are a bit pricey.
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Is there a simple test a simple person can do with the multimeter to check the reg ?
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Is there a simple test a simple person can do with the multimeter to check the reg ?
Yes stick it across battery (DC volts) with bike running at idle battery will be showing similar to what is was with engine off, at 1300 rpm you should see a jump in voltage at least 0.5 of a volt this is the system kicking in. at 4500 rpm the voltage should reach 14.6 volts plus or minus 0.1 of a volt the voltage should not increase and further with an increase in rpm. If it passes the AC test but fails at the battery there is pretty much only one component it could be.
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Would it be possible to check the reg output at the reg so I can eliminate any other loom problems as a new loom was fitted recently ?
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Yes, if you unplug the red wire you should see the battery Voltage at the loom.
Make sure you have 12 Volts on the black wire at the regulator (red/black wire of the loom) with the key On
(you won't if the headlights not on, unplug the light below the bucket if you are trying to conserve charge)
The 12 Volts comes from the headlight circuit after the relay.
Without running the alternator yellow wires should be < 0.5 Ohms
If your meter has a diode test range (----->|-----) from yellow to red of the regulator should measure ~0.5 red lead to yellow black lead to red
As someone else mentioned the regulator case has to be grounded because that's the way the current gets back from ground to the alternator, use a short
wire between the regulator case and a timing cover bolt.
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Ive got good earths from the reg but something u have just mentioned triggered alarm bells - ive recently took my headlight off for repair - could this be relevant ?
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Im getting no voltage out of their black wire from reg (key on) but 11.5v from the black and red one ?
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The easy thing to do would toss the battery and try a new one.
Dean
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Tried that and it did the same.
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Im getting no voltage out of their black wire from reg (key on) but 11.5v from the black and red one ?
That sounds right, this Voltage tells the regulator to start charging, when it reaches about 13.8 the regulator turns Off.
It's ok to remove the headlight just do it at the bucket. do not pull the headlight fuse or relay, the regulator MUST have the Voltage you see on the black wire.
With the regulators Red wire unplugged do you see 12 Volts on the red wire at the loom side. It should go directly to battery +, perhaps thru a 30 Amp fuse.
The 30 Amp fuses are bothersome, the socket they plug into has weak springs and they often overheat turning the plastic of the fuse black. Other bikes have no fuse, the wire goes directly to the battery.
The regulators usually fail when one of the diodes goes open circuit, measure the diode between yellow and the red wire with a diode test. If you don't have diode tester use the Voltmeter on 2 Volt scale and pass a small current thru the diode from yellow to red perhaps an AAA cell if the diode is good it will clamp the Voltage to 0.5 to 0.6 Volts (don't use a high current source like the bike battery or you will damage the diode)
So to explain it differently you measure the AAA cell Voltage = 1.5 Volts then connect yellow to positive, red to negative and the Voltage will drop to ~0.5 - 0.6, this is the diodes forward bias Voltage.
I assume you have already measured the alternator Yellow to Yellow at < 0.5 Ohms and 20 - 60 Volta AC while the bike is running.
Here is the schematic for the Ducati Energia regulator, the circuitry in colour is just to operate the charge light.
(http://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s526/Kiwi_Roy/Regulators/1987_022_zps6ae99424.jpg)
The current flows from the alternator coil thru a diode thru the battery to ground, from ground to the regulator case, from case thru an SCR and back to the alternator thru the other yellow wire. It changes direction 14 times while the engine turns once, it's busy.
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As best I can tell with limited experience ive got 0.4ohm engine off and 44.8v engine running between the yellows. Looking at the wiring diagram , and im not saying ive read it properly , but if the red wire output from the reg is always just at or below battery voltage then it is probably faulty ? Ive got what I think is a diode test on my meter and it just reads one so cant be sure im using it correctly.
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Phew Roy , that schematic is way beyond me , I can just about check voltage but I wouldnt count on anything else. I keep hearing reference to the lighting circuit , my headlights are off the bike , could this effect things?
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Roy I don't want to hijack the thread BUT can you enlighten me
I cannot not believe even Guzzi (who do some pretty weird shit with wiring) would wire the sensing line through the headlamp, meaning the headlamp has to be on to charge, it just makes NO sense.
The headlamp relay may not be a headlamp relay (in the sense that I would use the term), it appears the pilot is triggered through the kill switch which in turn receives a supply via the pilot side of the power relay which comes in turn from the ECU, so it may be turned on all the time, providing the ignition is on and the kill switch set at Run
The power of the headlamp relay is switched via the starter and appears to always have a supply as long as the starter is not operating
Am I missing something?
My head is starting to hurt
John
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I cannot not believe even Guzzi (who do some pretty weird shit with wiring) would wire the sensing line through the headlamp, meaning the headlamp has to be on to charge, it just makes NO sense.
John
That's the way it is John, they did it that way for all the years they used the Ducati Energia. The reason I think is the regulator pulls 15 mA so they needed to disconnect it when the bike isn't running. The main problem with this is the Voltage drop through the headlight relay is not consistent it can vary from 1/2 Volt (case 1) to over a Volt (case 2) as the relay socket builds up resistance.
They allow for the normal Voltage drop 0.5 - 0.6 by setting the regulator for 13.8 so end up with 14.3 (case 1) at the battery. As the contacts build up some resistance the Voltage drop goes up 13.8 + 1 =14.8 (case 2) so now the battery is starting to cook and as the charge Current to Voltage applied is exponential the regulator cooks itself.
The regulator does a great job of keeping the headlight Voltage constant, not so good at holding the battery.
Weird shit, I agree.
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Ive got what I think is a diode test on my meter and it just reads one so cant be sure im using it correctly.
If it just gives you a reading on one of the yellows that's a sign that the diode in the other one has melted it's lead off, I have seen this in all the faulty ones I pulled apart (4), with only half the charging capacity it will really struggle to keep the battery charged (this is how it was on my first Guzzi). It's possible to add a diode on the outside since it's just between yellow and red but better of course to get a new regulator, go for one of the direct connect type that doesn't rely on the flakey headlight circuit.
This is what it looks like when the lead melts off the diode (upper Left). The lead is the thing like a tack you see laying by the lower diode note how the diode is blackened by arcing.
You can also see the two SCRs screwed to the case (lower right) This reg also had the charge light circuit burnt out (lower board, towards right), I suspect the lamp shorted out.
(http://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s526/Kiwi_Roy/Regulators/E%20Board%20removed_zpswg346the.jpg)
I'm almost certain the diodes melt their leads because of the flakey Voltage reference (too much Voltage drop = too much current)
A couple of diode boards from 2 regulators From left to right Yellow wire, Red wire, Yellow wire, thats why you can test them with your diode tester.
The diode on the RH board has melted right off, it could be soldered back and it would work again.
(http://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s526/Kiwi_Roy/Regulators/F20Diodes_zpsgijjwiqt.jpg)
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John, the reg/rec needs to know what the battery voltage is in order to figure out if it needs more, or to shut off charging when the battery voltage is "right" (i.e. ~14.5 volts.) The headlight relay is simply a convenient point to pick up a switched line to the battery, it needs to be hot only with the ignition on to prevent parasitic losses or a malfunction in the RR from draining the battery with the switch off. The headlight bulb itself is incidental to charging operation, if the light bulb has burned out, been removed or unplugged the charging system will still work as long at the voltage still makes it as far as the RR reference connection. As Roy pointed out, in this wiring scheme the regulator actually regulates the headlight voltage relative to the regulator case, taking it on faith (Yeah, right with Italian wiring!) that the battery will be somewhere close to that.
The OP has diagnosed the problem pretty well. Seeing something approximating battery voltage at both the reference point (red/black wire) with the switch on and at the red output wires with the regulator unplugged, combined with good AC voltage at the yellow wires pretty much eliminates problems with the loom and only leaves the RR as the culprit. On a lot of meters, the diode check measures junction voltage and will show an over range indication (the 1 with the rest of the digits blank the OP mentioned) with an open circuit. A reverse biased good diode will show that, as will a burned out (open circuit) diode. A good forward biased diode will (as mentioned) show somewhere around 1/2 a volt. OP, go back to your diode check and swap the leads around to change polarity on the DUT (diode under test) and if you see the blank/1 in both directions you have confirmed a bad diode inside the RR so, unfortunately, the whole unit needs to be replaced. To get a sort-of check on your diode meter, short the two meter leads together. You should see the readout go from the open circuit/1 to somewhere around zero (maybe 0.0something) if it does that the meter is probably good. As to why the charging system seems to have worked for a while and then suddenly failed, that is a characteristic of anything electronic and the timing relative to your repairs/rebuild is probably coincidental.
Howard
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Roy, Howard R
Many thanks for the explanations, but following the paths using Carl Allison's diagram for the Sporti 1100 i, I do not see that headlight relay being a headlight relay at all, in the sense I mean. If the headlamp is on or off is entirely irrelevant to the state of that relay
The power for the pilot side of the relay comes from pin 26 of the ECU which travels to the pilot side of the Power relay, where there is a take off that runs power to the Kill and Start switch, the switched side of the kill switch runs (eventually) to the pos side of the pilot on the headlight relay. So as long as Pin 26 is feeding voltage and the kill switch is set to run then the headlight relay will be energized.
The only difference between the headlight relay function and the Power relay (which feeds coils and injectors) is the kill switch (and the starter on the power side)
On the power side the headlamp relay receives its feed via an n/c contact on the starter relay which in turn gets its power from fuse 3.
Ergo
ignition on, kill switch to run & starter not engaged :- The headlamp relay and hence voltage sensing line is receiving volts.
I understand and agree that using a sensing line through a relay is a really lousy design, but I still don't think the headlamp had much to do with anything. The only way that relay could be called a headlamp relay is because it kills the beam (and the brake lights) when the starter is engaged
I'm sorry I did not mean to go off topic and I know Roy knows so much more than me, I am just trying to understand and hopefully also helping others get their head around it
TO THE OP & ROY
Roy I seek your wisdom here but do you reckon there would be anything to be gained by going Shindengen MosFet? They are good deal pricier but if/when mine gives up the ghost then that was the route I was thinking of going down............... ...............very popular mod in the Ducati community
http://www.shindengen.co.jp/product_e/electro/reg.html (http://www.shindengen.co.jp/product_e/electro/reg.html)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SHINDENGEN-MOSFET-FH020AA-REGULATOR-RECTIFIER-KIT-REPLACES-FH012AA-/380704480069 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SHINDENGEN-MOSFET-FH020AA-REGULATOR-RECTIFIER-KIT-REPLACES-FH012AA-/380704480069)
Apologies for the Off topic
John
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John,
Yes Bigpants didn't exactly say what bike he is referring to, from the two yellow wires coming from the Alternator I assumed it was a spine frame VII Sport with a Ducati Energia regulator in which case the headlight relay is as Howard and I describe.
I haven't looked at the 96 1100i before but it also senses the voltage after the headlight relay and suffers from two relays in series.
We are referring to the red/black wire going to the regulator
Bigpants, shed some light here!
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John,
Your interpretation is correct. I think part of the "confusion" (not really confusion, but that's a close enough term) is that "headlight relay" is a holdover from the factory schematic terminology. The main purpose of the "headlight relay" is to cut power to all the extraneous stuff like horn, dash lights and other things, the headlight being the main contribution, to reduce the load on the battery during operation of the starter. That's all it does, from the relay onward the on-or-off-ness of the headlight (and/or high beam operation) is determined only by the handlebar switch(es) without regard to the state of the relay.
Hope this helps with further understanding.
Howard
PS I seem to remember previous posts from the OP dealing with a fuel injected 1100 Sport-i so it's probably the same bike.
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Hi Roy & Howard
First many thanks for all the explanations I do appreciate your input (and Roy for the VERY JAZZY and BRILLIANT diagrams, I knick them and file them away whenever I get the chance)
I'm not being sarcastic and God knows I've done this too, but the thread title does state 1100 sporti charging so that's what I thought it was an 1100 sport injection
I admit to having a vested interest as I'm re-building a Magni Sfida 1100 Sporti
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=81986.0 (http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=81986.0)
Re the sensing line Yes the red/black line. The sensing line is paralleled to the instrument lights and some warning lights but then runs back to the "Headlamp Relay"
There is a separate line which is paralleled and runs from the "Headlamp Relay" to the bar switches then onto the headlamp (so no relays ergo............the switch has a hard life and the headlamp will be dimmer due to volts drop............... .SIGH!!!)................... .....I suppose in a sense it's vaguely connected to the headlamp, as if its not energized no headlamp, but also a whole lot of other components too including brake lights would not work either.
Therefore from what I can see and correct me if I misinterpret, the only volts drop that the sensing line "sees" is the volts drop across the contacts of the "headlamp relay"
Any input re the Shindengen Mosfet RR?
John
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Like Howard says on the headlight relay. It interrupts the circuit so that there is no draw on the battery during starts. I would definitely look at the battery first. Charge and load test it. I think the OP did this. However if the battery is a little questionable. Change it out.
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Any input re the Shindengen Mosfet RR?
John
They look ok., it works by shorting out the alternator when the battery is at full Voltage as opposed to the Ducati Energia that opens the circuit and lets the alternator produce whatever Voltage it can, I can't decide what's best.
It's a 3 phase regulator, is the Magni 3 or single phase? Probably doesn't matter to leave one line open
I like it that the company at least gives you a clue as to how they work unlike Electrosport who won't share a thing.
I also like it that the company is Japanese rather than Chinese, I know, I'm not supposed to say that and they make the semiconductors so they should know how to apply them.
This guy seems convinced
http://roadstercycle.com/Shindengen%20Mosfet%20Regulator%20about.htm
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Hi Roy
No the alternator on the Magni is the stock single phase item, but the max output from the manual on the alternator is 27A and that's at pretty high RPMs. The Shindengen can handle single or 3 phase, although to make the most of it, you'd obviously be better with 3 phase, up to 30A.
I just thought I'd mention as over here all I hear is Electrosport yet on the Ducati UK forum all they talk about is Shindengen yet some of the bikes are running identical (or near identical) charging circuits and components.
These are installed as standard on many Triumphs, Yams and probably more, it was just a possible alternative, to make BP aware of some alternates......... .............its the route I intend to pursue later, as IMHO there is little point in installing a product that's suspect, I'd prefer to pay more and get something I can rely on.
John
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Hiya folks. Wow there are some knowledgeable people out there , thanks for all the advice. Latest report - ive bought a new reg and its made bugger all difference. Battery still going flat in 10miles or so. Reg output still around 11v. Alternator output 45v ac , winding isolation test at + 20M ohm , winding continuity 0.4ohm. Soo , any idea what else I can try ? Sorry if im slow to reply , no computer or electricity here - just a phone with limited battery capacity (sounds familiar). Thanks people.
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Good Grief BG
It does sound like its not charging yet the tests indicate the alternator is good and the Reg/Rec replaced.
Is the Reg/Rec properly grounded and is the battery to frame connection good at both ends on the bike
Have all the connections between the Reg/Rec and the rest of the bike checked for continuity and all associated plugs etc: checked
Fully charge the battery off the bike let it sit for an hour or so and measure the voltage, should be around 12.7 volts
Pop it back in the bike and run the revs up to 2-2,5k measure the voltage at the terminals
I'm trying to ascertain for certain that its not charging which it sure looks to be the case
How old is the battery?
After that if it isn't charging my next move would be to prove the wiring by jury rigging test wiring then repeating the above test to make sure there is not something in the loom that's causing the problem
I'm starting struggle Roy is defo your man you have one of the top electrics guy on this forum on your case (and its NOT me)
John
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The reg is definitely earthed , and ive checked for continuity between the battery and reg and the headlight relay and both are good. The batt should be good and im alternating between two as one goes flat ( engine running) . When I say flat I mean about 11.7v at which point starter solenoid wont fire and ecu shuts down. The bike has had a long history of mods and probs and its hard to remember which problem started at which stage so as I fitted a new loom recently that has to be suspect or rather my fitting has to be suspect. It was a loom from the states and I think euro ones have some differences.
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I'm sure you are aware that the 30 Amp main fuses have an issue, they get hot and the plastic melts or goes black, check for that.
Make certain you have battery Voltage on the regulator black wire, do this by running a wire direct from battery + to the black wire then with the motor running check the Voltage at the regulators red wire. You might want to add a fuse at the battery just in case of an accidental short.
(I have had to hot wire the regulator like that when my charging failed on a trip)
Did you test the diodes on the new regulator.
Is it a Ducati Energia like the original, if not give us the make/model
If that works then we can take the next step
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Ok thanks roy. Its 23.00 here so im off to bed but I'll get on it in the morning and report back.
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Ok Roy. Latest results as carried out by someone who doesnt really know what he's doing. Voltage at battery now 12.34v , at black reg wire 11.7 although it varied depending on where I took an earth from but 11.7 was the highest. I havnt done the running test with a wire from batt +ve to black as I wanted to check - did u mean with the black wire unplugged from the black and red one ?
I dont seem to have a 30amp fuse , the highest is a 20A in the fuse box , its fine.
Diode tests achieved values of 484 and 501 for the two yellow wires (using new reg). Dont know units.
New reg from www.MVH-SHOP.DE via ebay part number 700551 for sport 1100 ie
Cheers.
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Hmm , things just took a turn for the worse. Overwhelmed by wires and connections I accidentally started the bike with the black and the white wires from the reg unplugged. The wires from the ignition barrel fried and now all is dead. Bugger.
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Starting with the regulator unplugged did no harm, perhaps it's the real problem showing itself.
The switch comes off easily just two Phillips screws around the back underneith and the switch will pull off leaving the lock behind
pull it apart and clean the old grease out, replace with fresh Vaseline.
If the wires to the switch let out the magic smoke that's because Luigi in his wisdom thought he didn't need to fuse the wire from the battery to the ignition switch, there's several hundred amps available from the battery to do some serious damage, I always add a main 40 Amp fuse where the ignition switch feed takes off from the battery, it should never ever blow but could save a major melt down.
Looking at the schematic there are two red wires joining at the start solenoid, one to the ignition switch, one to the regulator, looking at the schematic your bike doesn't have a 30 amp fuse, just a 1 way connector (35)I would put a fuse in each one.
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1996_Sport_1100i.gif
Looking at the schematic it shows the regulator Voltage reference goes through two relays, the start then the headlight, I know from my greenie this is an issue one or the other contact builds up resistance and throws the voltage reference out of kilter.
Unplug the male/female connector at the regulator and power the regulators black wire from the battery this will give the regulator the best shot of working. This is only a temporary connection, the black wire pulls about 15 milliamps, it would flatten the battery in a few days if left that way.
Inspect the two bullet connectors on the yellow wires, the connection should be nice and silver, not black and burnt looking.
Now you have the regulator connected directly to the two yellow wires, the battery connected to the red wire and the battery connected to the regulators black wire, just make certain the regulator case is connected to chassis with a wire from the case to a timing cover screw (the current flows back that way), it should go eh!
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Hmm , things just took a turn for the worse. Overwhelmed by wires and connections I accidentally started the bike with the black and the white wires from the reg unplugged. The wires from the ignition barrel fried and now all is dead. Bugger.
As Roy said, leaving the Black/white wire off did no harm. You have another issue there.
Did the ignition switch get hot and melt? That is a sign of poor contacts in the switch.
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Ok guys , im a bit overwhelmed but soldiering on ! Ignition barrel taken apart , screwdriver stuck into side of thumb , cleaned , greased and back together. No change. Both red wires at barrel and reg 12.34v , continuity along white wire to headlamp relay checked. No relay clicking. Assumed barrel not working so shorted red and white wires at barrel connector block and my radio crackles but no relay click , swapped relay but no change. Put ignition all back together and switching on doesnt make radio crackle. Ok I'll go back to ur instructions now.
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Sorry got diverted checking stuff. There appears to be something weird going on at the headlight relay. Ive got 12v at the ignition barrel and to check the switch I ran it straight to the relay white wire terminal and nothing. So I ran battery to same terminal and it clicks. So put it all back together and checked volts at relay terminal and got nothing. Then I accidentally shorted two of relay terminals and it whirred into life , I hit the starter and it fired then stopped after a few seconds (5?). All is not lost , just very misplaced.
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Also roy I did as u said but since the fry up ive got no relays or fuel pump prime. Still trying to get to the bottom of that.
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Also roy I did as u said but since the fry up ive got no relays or fuel pump prime. Still trying to get to the bottom of that.
You need to get power from the ignition switch back to the ECU relay before the ECU will power up the pump etc. Look for power at the fuses 3,4,5, & 6 when the key is turned On. There's another white wire from the ignition switch that goes to the kill switch, from there it goes to the power relay, check you have the switch On
You said something is weird with the headlight relay, yes, that's why I'm trying to get you to hot wire the regulator so we can prove out the charging components, it's hard to get good help LOL
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Hehe , fair play Roy. I'll try and stick to the instructions. Its getting dark here in the woods so ive moved the bike into my cabin. Ive only got candlelight and a head torch but ill try and go over those items u just mentioned and report back. Hope she doesnt burn my home down.
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Key and run on - fuse 1 = 0.1v all others read battery voltage.
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My phones gonna go flat soon so you'll be relieved to hear this will be my last post for the night. Ive just discovered something clearly wrong. I was peeling all the loom away from the frame and just downstream from the run/start 5 way connector about 1cm from it , someone has cut a very neat 2mm slice away from the insulation of the white wire. There is also a 1cm long piece of bare wire pushed perpendicularly through it. This shows signs of earthing and burning into the brown (red?) And white wire next to it. The plot thickens.
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Sorry, ignore the update to my last, I wasn't reading the drawings right.
Drawing shows fuse 1 & 2 fed from the ignition switch but they are only the flasher horn and park light.
Do you have a printout of the schematic?
You should hear the Power Relay click when you operate the kill switch, at the same time the ECU terminal 26 gets power. The power relay closing puts power onto the injectors, ignition coils and starts the pump
After a few seconds the ECU drops out the Power Relay to turns off the pump etc.
So figure out why this isn't happening.
There's a second white wire on the ignition switch that goes to the kill switch. Update: You just found the short in this wire, that could be it
Once we get the motor going again then we can troubleshoot charging.
Start by hot wiring the black wire, if everything else is ok it should charge.
Note: I went on MVH-Shop.de and tried to find the regulator, I came up with one labeled DC-003, this has the same wires as the OEM Ducati Energia. This regulator must have a well grounded case, the current runs back through the ground connection, run a wire from the regulators case to a timing cover screw.
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Hi Roy. Ive nicked a bit of charge from the bike for my phone. Where were we. Ive got one of carls wiring diagrams and can still make out most of it despite the blotches of blood , sweat and tears. I just started the bike ( my home stinks now). It looked like the ignition barrel wasnt working , it only seems to pass on 0.5v but theres more to it. That 4 way connector for it. The reds read battery voltage , if I hotwire the red to the white nothing happens. If I hotwire the red at the reg to the same white wire at 4way block nothing. But if I go straight from battery to white wire everything fires up and bike runs. Also once ive started it the key operation stays live and operational for a while but eventually stops working.
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You seem to be telling us that the red wire at the regulator is not connected to the battery.
Just because it has battery Voltage on it doesn't mean it has a good connection.
There is some sort of connector in the wire. Item (45) Packard one way connector, see if you can locate that.
Have you had a chance to hot wire the black wire?
Perhaps run another temporary wire for the red as well or just tie red and black together with a single wire to the battery.
Good Luck
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Ive found the packard connector and even with levers and pliers I cant get it apart. I just wired battery straight to reg reds. Turned key and all fired up. So despite seeing battery voltage there there doesnt seem to be any current flowing. Ok gonna do black wire hotwire again. Just need to confirm - unplug BOTH black and white wires from reg then run new hotwire from battery to red and black at reg ?
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I dont mean to keep bombarding you with results but - ran wire from battery to reg reds ( theyre all still connected) and to the disconnected black ( white still connected). Bike runs fine , 11.78v at reg black and red regardless of revs.
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And still see a reasonably high AC Voltage on the two yellow wires while they are connected
And you do have the regulator case well grounded (this is how the charge current returns to the alternator)
If the case is not grounded the regulator won't turn on and there's no way for the current to get back.
Note:
The regulator doesn't set the battery Voltage, all it does is set the voltage between the black wire and it's case if it happens those two points are connected to the battery it follows along
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Roy - Excellent schematic and documentation on the single phase rectifier/voltage regulator you provided. Lots of forensic work went into that. If it wasn't for the material that is used to encapsulate the components, the regulator could be repaired quickly and economically. In the photo of the two button diodes where one had become unsoldered, you made a statement that the diode could probable be reused. It's been my experience in repairing power supplies, battery chargers, auto alt diode boards, etc, that's a sure sign that the diode has shorted. But I'm sure you know that.
Also, taking the reference voltage at the headlight would be where the lowest voltage drop would occur since it is the single most current draw item in the electrical system (besides the starter.)
I think that a lot of charging systems fail because owners tend to hang on to marginal batteries that put an additional strain on the already marginal charging components. If you suspect the battery is nearing it's useful life - toss it and save yourself grief down the road.
Anyway - thank you for your time and research on providing info on the reg.
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LaMojo, unfortunately the headlight Voltage drop is not consistent, my VII Sport can be anywhere from 0.5 to 1 Volt, it drops back if I wiggle the relays.
Adding after market headlight relays removes the Voltage Drop, adding extra lights increases it.
The black wire of the Ducati Energia draws about 15 milliamps, I think that's the only reason it was placed after the headlight relay so it's disconnected when the key is off.
It does a great job of regulating the headlight Voltage but not so good a job on battery Voltage
I have been advocating direct connected Electrosport ESR510 as a replacement, it senses the battery Voltage directly across the red & Green wires. Even though it may still have a black wire Electrosport told me it's not used
(some ESR510s come with the black, some without)
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Little slow here. You guys lost me 1/2 way through the thread. :grin: Had to reread a couple of times. :embarrassed:
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Hiya guy's, sorry ive been away from the bike for a few days . Ive got it wired up now with (as roy suggested) the battery straight to the regs black and red wires. The black one is disconnected from its black and red counterpart , the white one still connected. As the battery is wired direct to reg ive disconnected the one way connector for the main red battery feed incase there was a prob there - there are signs of melting in the connector. I measured the ac olts at the yellow and with engine off its reading 25v ac , when I start it it now drops to 13.5v ac where as before it was 45v. And increased revs reduce the voltage slightly.
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Sorry my mistake , I was measuring yellow wires relative to earth not to eachother. Back to 40+v ac.
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So it must be charging then, the battery is clamping the AC down
Right?
Now you know it will charge if it gets the right signals we have to figure out why it wasn't, my guess is one of the relays.
I suggest you give up on the headlight related charging system and install an aftermarket direct connected regulator.
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Has BP been using 4-pin or 5-pin relays?
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Has BP been using 4-pin or 5-pin relays?
That could be an issue.. I think. :smiley:
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Hiya folks , sorry to resurrect this thread but im still up the creek without a paddle and things just got worse , the rear suspension link on my firestorm just snapped so im back working on the guzzi. Ok right now ive got the two yellow wires (@45v ac) connected to reg , the red wire from reg hotwired straight to battery and all other wires disconnected. Which I think means the reg is now completely separate from the rest of the bike/loom. Output is 12.1v dc and drops a tiny bit with increased revs. Surely this means the genny must be the prob ?
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Hiya folks , sorry to resurrect this thread but im still up the creek without a paddle and things just got worse , the rear suspension link on my firestorm just snapped so im back working on the guzzi. Ok right now ive got the two yellow wires (@45v ac) connected to reg , the red wire from reg hotwired straight to battery and all other wires disconnected. Which I think means the reg is now completely separate from the rest of the bike/loom. Output is 12.1v dc and drops a tiny bit with increased revs. Surely this means the genny must be the prob ?
Nope, if you are getting 45v ac it's doing it's job.
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Thanks chuck. The reason I ask is of all the tests in the back of the manual the 'winding isloation to earth' one is givi ng me trouble . I cant get consistent results and im not sure im getting anywhere near 10M ohm.
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Hiya folks , sorry to resurrect this thread but im still up the creek without a paddle and things just got worse , the rear suspension link on my firestorm just snapped so im back working on the guzzi. Ok right now ive got the two yellow wires (@45v ac) connected to reg , the red wire from reg hotwired straight to battery and all other wires disconnected. Which I think means the reg is now completely separate from the rest of the bike/loom. Output is 12.1v dc and drops a tiny bit with increased revs. Surely this means the genny must be the prob ?
No, you need 12 Volts on the black wire otherwise the regulator won't turn On and the battery will go flat.
(I assume you still have the OEM Ducati Energia regulator)
We had these wires on the battery the other day and it seemed to be working
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Oh ok , cheers roy , for some reason I thought the output of the reg was dependant on the voltage at black being lower than the required battery voltage so zero would be fine. Now I think about it im not sure that even makes sense.
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Sorry missed that question. I thought I had blown the original reg so now running a replacement german one for the guzzi , I gives the same 11.89v output - including with the black wire connected.
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Oh ok , cheers roy , for some reason I thought the output of the reg was dependant on the voltage at black being lower than the required battery voltage so zero would be fine. Now I think about it im not sure that even makes sense.
It sort of works that way but some Voltage is required to turn the electronics On, the AC coming in the yellow wires doesn't get used internally at all.
If you have 30 - 40 Volts AC with the yellow wires unplugged and only 15 or so when the regulator is plugged in tells me the current is going somewhere.
If you post me a link to the German one I will take a look.
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Hiya folks , sorry to resurrect this thread but im still up the creek without a paddle and things just got worse , the rear suspension link on my firestorm just snapped so im back working on the guzzi. Ok right now ive got the two yellow wires (@45v ac) connected to reg , the red wire from reg hotwired straight to battery and all other wires disconnected. Which I think means the reg is now completely separate from the rest of the bike/loom. Output is 12.1v dc and drops a tiny bit with increased revs. Surely this means the genny must be the prob ?
You have actually bolted the reg to the frame? you need to do this otherwise it won't work.
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You have actually bolted the reg to the frame? you need to do this otherwise it won't work.
Good point Murray it needs a way for the current to return from battery negative to the alternator.
Some of the after market ones have a wire but if it doesn't the metal to metal contact is part of the circuit
The current flow is from one yellow wire thru the regulator out the red wire to the battery from battery Negative to chassis, from chassis to regulator and back to the alternator thru the other yellow wire.
Hopefully Bigpants will post a link to his after-market regulator so we can make sure he has everything.
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MVH-shop.de
Sorry had to get that down before I forgot , my 3g signal is so slow today. Anyway a link is beyond me but thats the shop I bought it from but I have tried it and the origional reg and got the same results. The reg is bolted to the bottom yoke with good metal to metal contact and im running an extra earth to the engine and have tried an earth straight to the battery neg as well. Today I did 15 miles on it and it reminded me of why im persevering with it. Just to recap. 45v ac = 11.9v dc regardless of which reg and regardless of how I wire it up but im struggling to get 10M ohm generator isolation.
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I wouldn't worry about the isolation, even 1 Meg would be ok, it will be effected by the weather.
I really can't help unless I know what regulator I'm looking at.
Just give us a make and part No if you can't find a link.
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I looked back earlier in the thread where BG had posted as link and a part number
It doesn't tell me much but here is what I found, maybe BG can confirm that this is the item in question
https://www.mvh-shop.de/regulator/rectifier-DC-003 (https://www.mvh-shop.de/regulator/rectifier-DC-003)
I suppose its a bit academic if he's getting the same result from 2 separate reg/recs kinda points to the problem being elsewhere
I'm struggling, if all the earths are good and its connected as per the manual states then the voltage has to be getting dragged down by something.
One thing that will give you false DC readings regardless is if the battery is not fully charged, I'd like confirmation of the battery resting voltage prior to and after these tests.
Low battery volts will result in apparent low charging volts until the battery fully charges, it acts like a reservoir and pulls down the whole system until its fully charged
Regarding the stator coil resistance, that's a difficult thing to measure.
A multimeter is not really up to the task to accurately asses a resistance that high. Depending on your multimeter you could be getting complete rubbish. You really need a Megger to start getting reliable resistance readings that high.
When you do the check of the yellow wires to earth, are each reading about the same, if so chances are all is well.
I'm still not convinced that there is anything wrong with the generator, it seems to be reliably supplying 45V AC and that's around what you should be seeing,
From the manual if you are getting these readings or close then all is well with the generator
r.p.m. 1000 3000 6000
A.C. volts 15 40 80
John
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I love thread like this. I have to read this about 3 times. I'm lost. :tongue: :grin:
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I looked back earlier in the thread where BG had posted as link and a part number
It doesn't tell me much but here is what I found, maybe BG can confirm that this is the item in question
https://www.mvh-shop.de/regulator/rectifier-DC-003 (https://www.mvh-shop.de/regulator/rectifier-DC-003)
ll the earths are good and its connected as per the manual states then the voltage has to be getting dragged down by something.
If it is this regulator it needs a Voltage reference on the black wire similar to the OEM Ducati Energis
For n initial test you could just connect the black wire to the battery by way of one of the switched fuses.
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Sorry but I'm back. I've been living with the problem for the last 8 months , carrying a spare battery and changing every 15 miles and never doing more than 25 in total . It's got me to work every day and is still a joy to ride. I can do a battery change like a formula 1 pit crew. I've not been able to risk working on the bike and making it worse but I've just bought a little 125 for work so the guzzi is back in the living room and the multimeter is at the ready. I've bought another reg/rec as I'm getting voltage everywhere on the frame that's coming from the reg body/earth. So here we go again. 1st question - the yellow wires from genny just have two identical bullet connectors , does it matter which goes to which ?
All help much appreciated.
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Should not make a difference.
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Cheers Steve. I thought so but needed a second opinion.
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Hi BP, where the heck have you been.
We started this process back in July 2016 but you keep disappearing on us.
You certainly deserve a medal for persistence :bow:
Please fill us in on what regulator you have, you had a German one last time you were here
Make and Model, a link to the wiring diagram.
The OEM regulator needed 12 Volts on the black wire before it would start, this was supplied from the headlight circuit. I suspect the German one needed that also.
Several times with my Guzzis I've had to wire the black wire to the battery
Also needed a good ground as that was part of the circuit The regulator switches one yellow wire to the battery at the same time connecting the other to ground (chassis) Charging current goes from yellow out the red wire to battery and back via ground to the other yellow wire
A 30 Amp fuse in the red wire to the battery, any sign of overheating there?
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Hi BP, where the heck have you been.
We started this process back in July 2016 but you keep disappearing on us.
You certainly deserve a medal for persistence :bow:
Please fill us in on what regulator you have, you had a German one last time you were here
The OEM regulator needed 12 Volts on the black wire before it would start, this was supplied from the headlight circuit. I suspect the German one needed that also.
Several times with my Guzzis I've had to wire the black wire to the battery
Also needed a good ground as that was part of the circuit The regulator switches one yellow wire to the battery at the same time connecting the other to ground (chassis) Charging current goes from yellow out the red wire to battery and back via ground to the other yellow wire
A 30 Amp fuse in the red wire to the battery, any sign of overheating there?
Zzzzzzzzzzz
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Hi Roy , good to hear from you. Sorry for the disappearance , Sometimes working on this bike builds to a crescendo of despair and frustration and I just have to put it down for a while but the old girl always stirs my loins back into action eventually.
So I've got another of those German regs to play with and I'm thinking that what probably happened before was that a fault somewhere blew the replacement reg the moment I started the bike so im mulling things over before fitting the new one. I'm thinking of going straight in for the hot wired fitment direct to battery and bypassing the loom and checking that. I'v had good earths all through and currently run extras to be sure. With the broken reg fitted im getting about 11v out plus about 4v leaking through the body of the reg. Short circuit tests reveal what we already know - its knackered.
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Oh and yes there were signs of overheating in the fuse.
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Some model Guzzis did away with the fuse altogether.
If you keep the fuse perhaps drill holes in the legs and bolt the wires directly to it, you need a really good contact, they seldom blow usually just overheat from a bad connection.
Regulator make/model or a link to website please
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Yeah this is my second loom and the first one didn't have the fuse. I'll re - do it as u suggest.
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You could do away with the fuse but I would at least have a few inches of lighter gauge wire as a sacrificial link.
Another point that sometimes overheats is the yellow wire bullet connectors, they can be replaced by crimp links also.
For testing you can connect it up as shown bypassing the loom if you need to or it's suspect.
Connect the Voltage reference wire of the regulator (usually Black of Black/White pair) direct to the battery Positive, It will
draw a few milliamps when the bike is not running but don't worry about switching it until the charging is proven.
You don't need to worry about the white wire for the charge light, thats a separate function, add that later.
(http://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s526/Kiwi_Roy/Misc%20Pics/Charging20Sketch_zpspanizsah.jpg)
You should see at least 13 Volts on the battery while running.
I showed in red how the current flows so you can see how important the regulator ground is. This is just for one half cycle then it
switches over and flows from the other end of the coil and back from ground through the other yellow wire.
The complete diagram is shown in my reply 22 on page 1
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I'm just heading out to wire it up. But there's something confusing me , if the black and the red wires from the reg are wired straight to the battery positive then does the reg not just read it's own output , I know I'm missing some piece of logic here , just wondered if someone could explain it to me.
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Ok that didn't go well. Before fitting I did a short circuit test of the old and regs . The resistance between black wire and earth was some Mohm on the old one and 0.43ohm on the new. As soon as the wire touched the battery there was a big spark and now the new reg reads Mohms so I guess it's blown. I double checked all wires before fitting and ran two earths. Bugger.
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If the black wire to case was only .43 Ohms it obviously wasn't the Voltage reference, it was probably a separate ground wire.
You never did give us the model so I assumed it must be https://www.mvh-shop.de/regulator/rectifier-DC-003
Alternator regulator / rectifier DC-003
The alternator regulator DC-003 with integrated rectifier is new and in good quality from the accessories. The regulator / rectifier replaced in functionality and performance of the OEM part.
You were asked to confirm that.
I think you'd better find out what regulators the other English Guzzi owners are using and get one of those.
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I'm just heading out to wire it up. But there's something confusing me , if the black and the red wires from the reg are wired straight to the battery positive then does the reg not just read it's own output , I know I'm missing some piece of logic here , just wondered if someone could explain it to me.
Yes it does but the output is clamped by the battery, this is similar to all the direct connect regulators also.
Once the original Ducatti Energiser sees 13.8 Volts it stops connecting the alternator to the battery, It does this internally via the controlled rectifiers.
I can't speak for your German regulator because i have no information on it.
Other regulators short the alternator out when the battery Voltage reaches it's set-point.
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Seems to be a lot electrical experience going on in this thread,so I'll throw out to you guys.
I put two LED bulbs in my new dual head light setup.Everything seemed fine till my charging meter was showing over charging and test meter showed the same condition. My quota was a singe bulb setup prior to this conversion.The over charging was kind of intermittent.Did some reading on the internet about a headlight relay conversion.I had a spare regulator,so I put just one halogen bulb in and the spare regulator.All seems fine now. I have a trip coming up next week and will leave it as is since it never gave me any problems before.The question is,did the dual LED bulbs cause this issue or was it just coincidence that the regulator acted up.Will this relay conversion work,I do want to try to go back to dual LED bulbs after the trip,but also don't want to damage the regulator.
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Sorry Roy , yes the reg was a dc-003 from mvh in Germany. After blowing this one I disconnected the red and black wires from the battery and ran the bike just to check it. And the red is showing a dc output now - unfortunately it's 25v !
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Thanks for verifying the model, it's supposed to be a functional copy of the OEM Ducati Energia so the black wire of the black/white pair is the Voltage Reference not a ground, it's normally connected to battery Positive only through the headlight relay.
Don't be misled by the red wire Voltage when it's not connected to the battery, the Voltage is not regulated that way
I can really only speak for the Ducati Energia, it works like this
The Voltage reference is compared to a setpoint of 13.8 Volts
If its less than 13.8 the controlled rectifier is turned on and every bit of current and Voltage the alternator can muster up is sent to the battery. Batteries being very low resistance clamp the voltage down but I suspect the current might spike to 40 Amps. The current flows until the end of the alternator half cycle.
(BTW I suspect this high current is what often cooks the 30 Amp fuse contacts)
Next half cycle the Voltage may be greater than 13.8 so the regulator doesn't turn on the controlled rectifier so no current flows to the battery and the alternator windings probably spike over 90 Volts
Try connecting the red wire to the battery, what happens?
Connect and disconnect the reference wire, what happens?
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Cheers Roy , I'll go wire that up now , I'll start with just the red wire and then both red and black. For what it's worth I seem to remember that when I last set it all up in this hot wired method a few months back it melted all the wires leading to the ignition barrel.
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Ooh it's looking good. With just the red wire attached at tickover I've got 13.5v across the battery (12.99v with engine not running). I've not been brave enough to connect the black reference one yet.
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An OEM Ducatti Energia would not charge with the black wire off
Perhaps your new DC-003 is a direct connect regulator that doesn't need a reference.
A direct connect regulator senses the Voltage inside off the red wire and I suspect their Voltage shows high when not connected to the battery.
The black wire might well be a ground if they miss read the OEM design.
I wish we had better information on the type.
Good Luck
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I don't know if this helps but I seem to remember that they used the same part for ducati monsters so could cross reference with a monster diagram but also Roy I've got a spare I could send u ? I'm gonna check the dc output over a greater rev range incase it increases too much , is about 14.5v the limit ?
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I don't know if this helps but I seem to remember that they used the same part for ducati monsters so could cross reference with a monster diagram but also Roy I've got a spare I could send u ? I'm gonna check the dc output over a greater rev range incase it increases too much , is about 14.5v the limit ?
Thats brilliant, I couldn't find a schematic but I did find a troubleshooting forum where they referred to 14 Volts between red and black, that's totally different from the Ducatti Energia not functionally identical as claimed.
Anything from 13.5 to 14.5 would be great. :thumb:
You could try connecting the black to ground but i would try by just brushing it on at first to get a feel for how much current is passing.
If you bought the regulator from a dealer I would demand a diagram, it should never be sold for a Guzzi without one. if ever you find one I would appreciate a copy.
Please report back in a few days once you have a feel for how it's going to work
Good Luck
Roy
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I've done a few rides on the bike now and battery voltage is stable at around 13.3v and charging voltage at around 14.5v throughout the Rev range. I've now got the red wire from reg wired into the correct loom connection rather than straight to the battery to see if that leaks any power away when not being used. I can test earthing the black wire today. If I first try brushing it with ignition switched on but engine off should there be any current / sparking ?
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The Voltage is perfect. Being black I'm sure its a ground.
Back when I first started with my Greeney I noticed it's regulator was bolted poorly to the horn bracket Aluminium to steel in a wet environment which in turn was bolted to the chassis, the only real ground was the black wire all the way back to the battery. None of the bolts were prepared properly to act as a permanent ground. Obviously after a few years the connections corrode and then its up to the long black wire which has too much resistance so I started to preach add a ground wire to the engine 6" away. The engine back to battery is essentially zero Ohms.
Several VIIs I know of have almost fried because their main ground connection has worked loose throwing all the starter return current through that small black wire.
BTW, don't disconnect the black wire it serves another purpose.
The company in Germany deserve a rocket i'm sure you aren't the first owner to tear his hair out over the regulator wiring, they bundle the black and white wires together so the natural thing to do is plug it in just the same as the OEM Ducati Energia and let out some magic smoke. They don't understand our Guzzis.
If it goes anywhere I think the black wire should go to a timing cover bolt but please do it carefully I would hate you to upset the regulator because I am missing something, just brush it onto a bolt quickly otherwise tape it up and forget about it.
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I fired off a message to MVH asking for the connection diagram, I would really like to get to the bottom of this.
Unfortunately it's a German site so they probably ignored my request in English.
You said back a ways that the black wire was 0.4 Ohms to the case before you connected it, perhaps it blew off internally.
At the very least it would normally cause the headlight fuse to blow.
If there's any German speakers out there could you do me a favour and ask for a datasheet/connection diagram
info@MVH-online.de Regulator/rectifier DC-003
https://www.mvh-shop.de/regulator/rectifier-DC-003
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Hi Roy , sorry for the (now familiar) delay in completing the tests. It's been an absolute joy to be riding the bike again and I've been too scared to touch anything lest I break it again and cant get to work. But a few weeks of fun has given me the confidence to complete my task. So , it stands at red from reg plugged into loom and black and white wires unplugged. 14v+ output. All is well. With engine running I brushed black (from reg) to earth and no drama so I earthed it properly and as far as I can tell it makes bugger all difference to anything , reg is well earthed 3 other ways ! Thought I'd broken it though as no voltage output from reg red when it was disconnected from loom , 14v only flows when red is connected. So do you think I should earth the regs black wire permenantly ? And what to do with the white one ?
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That's great news, worth waiting for
With the key On try touching the male bullet connector of the pair that the Energia's Black/White used to plug into to ground It just has the charge light current (about 100 milliamps) When you are short it to ground, it should make the charge lamp glow.
If that goes as it's supposed to then try touching the regulator's white wire to the male pin, again the lamp should light if the key is On
If that happens then see if it goes out with the engine running.
If Not then just tape it up
I would just tape the black up, it sounds as though you have good grounds to the case. The main diodes will be attached to the inside.
As for the female Red/Black of the pair don't use that unless it's to power up an accessory.
I'm convinced the regulator is a direct connect type, all I would suggest you disconnect the battery when you park the bike for the winter as they do draw a tiny load that will bring the battery down over several months.
:bike-037: