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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Antietam Classic Cycle on July 07, 2016, 02:20:01 PM
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I'm *trying* to change the plugs in my mom's Dodge Ram 50 (Mitsubishi) pick-up with 2.6 liter engine. Previous to this, my brother was responsible for doing the maintenance on it, but since he's moved to Oregon, it's all down to me now. I've managed to get three out (1, 2 and 4) but #3 is stuck big time. 1 and 4 came out easily since a cam cover leak has kept them well protected from corrosion. :wink: 2 came out with liberal application of penetrant, turning it back and forth, slowly threading it out for 1/2 hour and even then using more force than I was comfortable with on a breaker bar, no damage to the threads though. Tried the same procedure with 3 and can't get more than 1/4 turn back and forth rotation.
Googled it a bit and came up with nothing any better. Thought I'd ask youse guys. Any tricks/tips that have been useful for you in the same situation?
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If the plug is still working I would probably leave it. With that slight movement I might try to get a penetrating fluid in there and wait a bit. Too much work when the plugs break off. Try again in the Fall. Mike
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Short of removing the head and doing it on the bench (a machine shop exercise), the best I can suggest is that you continue patiently as you have done so far - oil/penetrant, time, and gradually working it. Heating the head is always helpful given the expansion difference. If it comes to it, removing the head allows all this to be done more easily with less risk of damaging anything. You know this, but it's here for reference :laugh:
One trick I've seen used is to set an impact wrench on a low force in reverse (i.e., back-out) and just let it steadily hammer away at the resistance. The low force setting should (and I say should, not will, so use with caution at your own risk) allow impact to be transferred to the threads without breaking the collar nut away from the threaded body that's in the hole. A mechanic/machinist friend of mine did this to an engine of mine some years ago; it worked then, but who knows...?
If you are going to do this, you might check using a vise and one of the plugs you already removed as a sacrificial test to see how much force you can or should use.
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I watched a guy use carb cleaner on a Ford Triton that I had. Turned them just a bit, poured it in, and then went at them the next day. Expensive spark plug change.
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I've had good luck using Kroil to loosen rusted bolts. It penetrates very well.
http://www.kanolabs.com/msn/
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Hello Charlie
I would wait on the Penetration oil, for a few days.
Quick thought! I have never tried this, BUT If heat is applied to the Aluminum head, will it not expand faster than the Steel Plug.
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I've had good luck using Kroil to loosen rusted bolts. It penetrates very well.
http://www.kanolabs.com/msn/
The guys over on the CarTalk discussion mentioned this, although some also suggested that B'laster PB is more effective. At NASIOC (a Subaru forum I sometimes hang out in) B'laster PB is a hands-down favorite. It has the advantage of wider distributions, so you're more likely to be able to find it nearby (some WalMarts and auto chains have it).
http://blastercorp.com/PB-Blaster-Penetrant-remove-stuck-parts-spray (http://blastercorp.com/PB-Blaster-Penetrant-remove-stuck-parts-spray)
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Just dealt with this on a R100S that was parked in 1985 and I am trying to get running for a friend of mine. Left plug came out with some difficulty but right was hopelessly frozen. Penetrating fluids are are complete waste of time with cadmium threads that have been stuck to sand cast aluminum threads for 36 years. My last chance approach was to heat the area as much as I could without melting something (MAPP gas hand torches work good for this) and then hitting it with my impact on reduced pressure. It worked and there was no appreciable thread damage. I was going to pull the heads anyway, so if the thread blew up a Helicoil is no big deal. A head in a car that you aren't planning on removing may be something different. Good luck
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If you're trying various witches brews over a course of time, the old homemade standby of 1/2 acetone- 1/2 ATF has always worked best for me. Liquid Wrench, Kroil, and PB Blaster all have their advocates.
One of the four is bound to be better on the specific situation of coarse steel threads into aluminum .... might be worth a search. Different than steel-on-steel ...
Lannis
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Brake fluid also works well as a penetrating oil. back it off pour some in, let it sit overnight.
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If the plug is still working I would probably leave it. With that slight movement I might try to get a penetrating fluid in there and wait a bit. Too much work when the plugs break off. Try again in the Fall. Mike
That's just it - it's fouled, causing a misfire. Tried last Fall and Winter and Spring...
Now my brother informs me that #3 is "the one with the insert". Oh boy. That just moves this into a whole another dimension. :angry: He suggested heating the plug and pouring melted wax around it!
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As vintage53 and clubman said, heat should help if you can get it reasonably hot. The trouble is that a big chunk of aluminum is about impossible to heat locally, since it conducts heat so fast. By running the engine, you should be able to get it well above 212F.
Aluminum expands about 13 microinches/inch per degreeF, and steel about 8, so you get a net gain of 5 microinches/inch per degree F. If the thread diameter is about 1/2 an inch, the clearance will grow about 2.5 microinches per degreeF. Assuming you can get it to 240F from 80F, that's 160F rise, or 400 microinches of extra clearance, which is nearly 1/2 a thousandth and definitely worth doing.
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As vintage53 and clubman said, heat should help if you can get it reasonably hot. The trouble is that a big chunk of aluminum is about impossible to heat locally, since it conducts heat so fast. By running the engine, you should be able to get it well above 212F.
Aluminum expands about 13 microinches/inch per degreeF, and steel about 8, so you get a net gain of 5 microinches/inch per degree F. If the thread diameter is about 1/2 an inch, the clearance will grow about 2.5 microinches per degreeF. Assuming you can get it to 240F from 80F, that's 160F rise, or 400 microinches of extra clearance, which is nearly 1/2 a thousandth and definitely worth doing.
I'v tried doing this job several times as noted above. Fall, dead of Winter, Spring. Engine cold, warm and hot. The only difference with a hot engine was that #2 finally came out, #3 is still firmly stuck in the insert my brother installed (see edited previous post).
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The only difference with a hot engine was that #2 finally came out...
There you go... my suggestion retroactively helped you get #2 out. :laugh:
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If the plug is failing to fire, running the engine may not heat that particular plug area enough.
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I'd trade the truck in :evil:
What's the insert for? Is that the old-school brass insert/spacer trick used on cylinders burning oil?
Edit: Truck, not car
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Is your brother a decent wrench? If a thread repair has already been done, you might as well put a half inch breaker bar on it and give it all you got. At worst the insert will come out with the plug, hopefully the head is not already fubar. most of those insert kits came with a tool to swage them in the head, if the insert comes out clean you may be able to put another one in.
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If the plug is failing to fire, running the engine may not heat that particular plug area enough.
As I said, you're not going to locally heat or not heat a huge chunk aluminum. On top of that, you'll have 240 degree water circulating through the water jacket anyway.
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I'd trade the truck in :evil:
What's the insert for? Is that the old-school brass insert/spacer trick used on cylinders burning oil?
Edit: Truck, not car
I've offered to buy her another small, used truck/car, but she "likes this one too much" so I attempt to keep it running until she finally stops driving.
Apparently the plug hole stripped once before and my brother installed a thread repair insert. His latest email response tells me that the insert came out with the plug last time. :angry:
I think mom is still using the Winter starting routine (engine is carbureted) and is simply flooding it. I did an "Italian tune-up" :wink: and the stuck plug is firing more often now, but idle is still uneven.
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Consider the possibility of a vacuum leak causing high temps in #3, or a leaky exhaust valve. Repeat thread failures makes me a little suspicious.
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Charlie, My suggestion will sound pretty weird and a little violent. Run the cylinder to top dead center, (check firing order, run opposite cylinder in firing order to top exhaust), break off ceramic, break the rest of the ceramic into the cylinder with a punch. Use compressed air and shop vac to remove debris. Drill the rest of the plug out and possibly the insert depending what type. Use Time-sert brand insert if possible installed following Time-sert directions. All of this is a lot of work but as I remember those engines are pretty accessible in the chassis, of course having the head off is a lot more work and then of course you will discover all the bad stuff that has been hiding and have to fix that too. Check length of plug thread against insert and specs for that engine, over/under-length plugs have long been a problem with carbon deposits and corrosion/erosion of plug material inside the combustion chamber.
http://www.timesert.com/html/sparkplug.html
Brian
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The melted wax works well if you get the head heated up. Be advised if it doesn't work, and you want to go back to penetrating oil, you have to get it hot enough to disperse the wax or it blocks the oil.
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As a last resort in the past I have removed the porcelain from the plug ,ground down the back edge of a hacksaw blade until it fit where the porcelain was and cut two slots by hand opposite in the threaded part of the plug and removed it in two pieces with a pick,ran a tap through the threads to clean them up and all sealed ok,the insert may make that impossible though
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http://www.ryderfleetproducts.com/ryder/af/ryder/core/content/product/srm/oid/291847/erm/productDetail.do?utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=search&utm_campaign=product&gclid=CIja8qKA480CFcYehgodm_ML9A
crc freeze spray
I have used this freeze spray before with penetrating oil.
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An axe? Just channel all your frustration and hack it out....
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It seems to me that after all this time spent beating away at it- you simply could have removed the head.
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Been there...If the plug loosens a 1/4 turn and locks up it's likely the threads are galled.......Don't heat the head, head the metal base of the plug with a brazing tip on an Oxy torch...By heat it i mean really hot....Then let it cool on it's own....If this doesn't work... heat it again and use a fine directed spray of water on the plug...This will "shock" the plug and should loosen it.....Of course I assuming you can get the torch near the plug....
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I assume it is the insert that is turning a little.
At this point I would be doing what Rough Edge suggests. I would have that plug glowing red for a while. It may not be the right thing to do, but it would make me feel better. :evil:
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Been there...If the plug loosens a 1/4 turn and locks up it's likely the threads are galled.......Don't heat the head, head the metal base of the plug with a brazing tip on an Oxy torch...By heat it i mean really hot....Then let it cool on it's own....If this doesn't work... heat it again and use a fine directed spray of water on the plug...This will "shock" the plug and should loosen it.....Of course I assuming you can get the torch near the plug....
The plug is down in a "pocket", pretty much surrounded on three sides by the head casting.
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The plug is down in a "pocket", pretty much surrounded on three sides by the head casting.
Oh. That makes it tougher. I'd probably just bite the bullet, pull the head, and machine it out. Fix the insert if it needs it, and try to ignore whatever else I found. :smiley: You *will* find trouble on an old machine, of course. :grin:
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or just yard it out, insert and all. then put in a new insert, being aware if you do that and the hole is too buggered find a junkyard head. im in a similar situation with my Moms car, keeping it going as long as she can drive.
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Oh. That makes it tougher. I'd probably just bite the bullet, pull the head, and machine it out. Fix the insert if it needs it, and try to ignore whatever else I found. :smiley: You *will* find trouble on an old machine, of course. :grin:
At this point, it isn't worth the effort to pull the head (again - engine blew a head gasket at ~ 96k miles). Timing chain noise, oil leaks everywhere, high miles...
If I could get a few of my siblings to contribute, I'd either put a good used engine (if there is such a thing with this crap engine) or rebuilt long-block in it. I'd rather just buy here another small pick-up though.
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You know, with the use of all these volatile liquids, application of heat, close proximity of corrosive battery acid.....accidents happen. :rolleyes:
:popcorn:
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If you're trying various witches brews over a course of time, the old homemade standby of 1/2 acetone- 1/2 ATF has always worked best for me.
Lannis
Hey, easy with that "witches brew" characterization. Some of us have been using it for years. along with Ed's Red-must be a red suspenders thing
In an interesting somewhat scientific test:
However, there was an article comparing various penetrates in the April 2007 issue of Machinist Morkshop Magazine. They arranged a subjective test of all of the popular penetrants with the control being the torque required to remove the nut from a scientifically rusted environment.
Penetrant:
Average Load:
none 516 ft lbs
WD40 238 lbs
PB Blaster 214 lbs
Liquid Wrench 127 lbs
Kano Kroil 106 lbs
ATF-Acetone mix 53 lbs
Mark
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I have a can of PB Blaster and Kroil. I think Kroil does a slightly better job, but both are good.
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Despite many tries, I have never had PB Blaster work to un-seize anything. I bought a can of Knock-er Loose at the recommendation of someone here, and I have had it do the job. Acetone and ATF has worked for me too. Since it separates, I keep it in a small glass bottle, and shake it up well before each use.
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Put the other plugs back in and run the engine to get it up to temp, then carefully try the difficult plug again. Aluminium expands more than steel and helps in these situations.
Of course if its carbon build up on the threads on the nose of the plug then you are in problem city.
Were the other plugs carboned up on the end threads? were they the correct length plugs?
Patience and penetrating oil may be the answer if my suggestion doesnt work.
Ciao
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Would anti-seize compound work in this application to prevent further seizes in the future? Just thinking out loud here, I have some somewhere but can't recall using it much.
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First of all, I'd punch your brother if I was you for not using anti-seize on the spark plugs.
I just had a similar problem with my V11S. I couldn't get the caliper carrying bolt (mounted in the swing arm) out. PB Blaster soaking for a day didn't help. On a whim, I tried CRC Freeze Off. I doused the hell out of it, let it soak for a few minutes, and it finally broke loose. I don't know if this really worked, or if all of the combined efforts worked. With a thread repair already, none of this may help...
Ken
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First of all, I'd punch your brother if I was you for not using anti-seize on the spark plugs.
I just had a similar problem with my V11S. I couldn't get the caliper carrying bolt (mounted in the swing arm) out. PB Blaster soaking for a day didn't help. On a whim, I tried CRC Freeze Off. I doused the hell out of it, let it soak for a few minutes, and it finally broke loose. I don't know if this really worked, or if all of the combined efforts worked. With a thread repair already, none of this may help...
I'm planning to buy a can of Freeze Off first chance I get and give that a try. Can't hurt.
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If faced with this I would just search out and buy a used head, get a valve jop and install.
end of problem.
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I've had good luck using Kroil to loosen rusted bolts. It penetrates very well.
http://www.kanolabs.com/msn/
^^ This! :1:
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Charlie,
Did your brother mention which type of thread repair system he used?
Recoil/helicoil all use a steel wound wire that fits into an enlarged and threaded hole, the inside diameter will be the size and pitch of the intended fasteners thread.
Done correctly they usually stay where needed and don't bind or gall.
Ham fistedness can cross thread them.
Keen inserts can have the inside hole red filled and a helicoil fitted if the thread is trashed.
I would use the acetone/atf mix with a rattle gun on a low setting, going out and back in, rince and repeat until it comes out.
If its a helicoil pull it out, recut the thread, you will need the tap that comes with the kit, put in a new helicoil, anti seize the new plug and fit.
All of the above rolls off the tongue easily but doesn't allow for the frustration factor and wtf do I do now if logic doesn't work.
Good luck with it.
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If faced with this I would just search out and buy a used head, get a valve jop and install.
end of problem.
End of that problem, maybe. But as I said above, there's still the loose timing chain, oil leaks galore, questionable bottom end condition and high miles.
Made a trip to the local "transfer station" today with recycling, used oil and one bag of trash. Ran much better today after my "Italian tune-up" yesterday, barely missed at all.
Charlie,
Did your brother mention which type of thread repair system he used?
Recoil/helicoil all use a steel wound wire that fits into an enlarged and threaded hole, the inside diameter will be the size and pitch of the intended fasteners thread.
Done correctly they usually stay where needed and don't bind or gall.
Ham fistedness can cross thread them.
Keen inserts can have the inside hole red filled and a helicoil fitted if the thread is trashed.
I would use the acetone/atf mix with a rattle gun on a low setting, going out and back in, rince and repeat until it comes out.
If its a helicoil pull it out, recut the thread, you will need the tap that comes with the kit, put in a new helicoil, anti seize the new plug and fit.
All of the above rolls off the tongue easily but doesn't allow for the frustration factor and wtf do I do now if logic doesn't work.
Good luck with it.
No, he didn't mention what type of insert. I'll eventually try Freeze Out along with your suggestion of rattle gun on low. But for now, I'm going to let her run it as-is. She only makes one short trip a week, it's not like she depends on it to get to work or anything. Worst case: I'll simply take her where she needs to go, I do that sometimes already.
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Lots of people have said to heat ther head. This will, however, shrink the sparkplug hole and will not work while the head is hot. The only thing heating will do is perhaps break the galling on the threads when the head is cold. Cooling the head would work, however, the head is such a large chunk of aluminium you would never be able to do it when mounted on the motor. If it were possible to remove the head, a couple of days in the freezer would help to do the job.
To explain why the sparkplug holes would shrink, heat a washer with more metal than the hole in the middle and you will find that the hole in the washer will reduce in diameter. This is also why when pressing in new valve guides into a cylinder head, you freeze the valve guide, not heat the head.
My 2 cents worth
Cheers
Brian :bow:
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Despite many tries, I have never had PB Blaster work to un-seize anything. I bought a can of Knock-er Loose at the recommendation of someone here, and I have had it do the job. Acetone and ATF has worked for me too. Since it separates, I keep it in a small glass bottle, and shake it up well before each use.
I live in NY and own older vehicles... Rust....I've used Kroil, PB Blaster, and witches brews on rusted/stuck fasteners and Kroil is the best because of the sweet smell when I finally get the torch and heat the bolt... :grin:
I've also noticed that when using penetrating oil and the bolt or nut finally comes loose (without using heat), the threads are often dry. So the penetrating oil didn't penetrate... The various oils will work ok on very lightly rusted or tarnished bolts...
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Lots of people have said to heat ther head. This will, however, shrink the sparkplug hole and will not work while the head is hot. The only thing heating will do is perhaps break the galling on the threads when the head is cold. Cooling the head would work, however, the head is such a large chunk of aluminium you would never be able to do it when mounted on the motor. If it were possible to remove the head, a couple of days in the freezer would help to do the job.
To explain why the sparkplug holes would shrink, heat a washer with more metal than the hole in the middle and you will find that the hole in the washer will reduce in diameter. This is also why when pressing in new valve guides into a cylinder head, you freeze the valve guide, not heat the head.
My 2 cents worth
Cheers
Brian :bow:
So heating a piece of metal with a hole in it makes the hole smaller!!!! I'm speechless.
Ciao
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So heating a piece of metal with a hole in it makes the hole smaller!!!! I'm speechless.
Ciao
:grin:
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:grin: :grin:
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I had a similar situation.
Took the long course of action and decided that I'd get it to release its grip over the course of a week or so.
Would work the plug a little while the engine was cold. Let it run just a little....work it again. Run more...work it again. Work it again after coming back from drives.
By the end of several days, multiple heat cycles and just gently working it....it let go.
Some small amounts of aluminum came with it in the threads, but not enough to require a helicoil.
YMMV.
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I'm planning to buy a can of Freeze Off first chance I get and give that a try. Can't hurt.
This is the bolt after I loosened it with Freeze Off and an impact screwdriver. The threads were actually wet when I removed it...never had that happen before. Also the Freeze Off is kind of deceiving as the bolt was not freezing in any way, but it was cold. I used about 1/2 the large can on the bolt.
Ken
(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll83/ksiegel7/V11%20Cafe/IMG_9249_zpsrhnvobtp.jpg) (http://s286.photobucket.com/user/ksiegel7/media/V11%20Cafe/IMG_9249_zpsrhnvobtp.jpg.html)
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Patience and time should loosen it,,, I would loosen it as much as you can without snapping it,,, maybe a little heat to help the jungle juice acetone/atf work it's way in,,, a week works wonders IF you can wait and reapply it,,,great,,, when you're ready to go at it,, spray the freeze off onto the plug,,, rattle gun would be nice,,, but I guarantee a 3-4 ft johnson bar will get movement,,, without carnage? 50-50 chance imho lol,,,
good luck with it
Kelly
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I wonder if the movement you are getting is the plug moving in the helicoil or the helicoil moving in the head.
Don't know whether either option would affect your line of attack. Either way, I don't envy you. Any thing I would try has already been suggested.
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CRC Freeze-Off is the winner! Sprayed it on the stuck plug for a solid minute, let it soak for another 2, right away the plug felt much more easy to move and moved farther before seizing again. Squirt, soak, turn, repeat and it finally came out! Insert stayed put, but might have boogered threads. Need to find my tap and chase the threads. Getting there...
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Congratulations :thumb:
Dusty
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Congrats!! :thumb:
Tom
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Went ahead and replaced all four plugs while I was at it. Runs (almost) good again.
Now the exhaust is falling off. It's getting to be sort of like "rearranging the deck chairs on the Titantic". :angry:
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Just remember the deck chairs floated the boat didn't.
1 step at a time.
Glad you had a win.
Time for a beer, congrats. :boozing:
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Thanks for the follow-up. It's always nice to learn what works for certain tasks.
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CRC Freeze-Off is the winner! Sprayed it on the stuck plug for a solid minute, let it soak for another 2, right away the plug felt much more easy to move and moved farther before seizing again. Squirt, soak, turn, repeat and it finally came out! Insert stayed put, but might have boogered threads. Need to find my tap and chase the threads. Getting there...
Nice! I'm amazed on how well the freeze off worked.
Make sure you use plenty of loctite high heat thread locker on the new plugs. :evil:
Ken
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the best use for instant freeze that I have witnessed was midnight shift at the airlines when a fellow worker was on a ladder installing cowling and had his hands full. he had his nutsack housing retention assembly liberally dosed with the stuff. absolutely hilarious :evil: