Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: willowstreetguzziguy on July 23, 2016, 09:49:23 PM
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I don't understand people riding around sitting bolt upright. I ride with a 65 degree forward lean on my 1200 Sport. This is similar to my past bikes... BMW K75S, K75C, and BMW R90S. I'm not talking about clip-ons. I find this slight forward lean provides several advantages that I prefer...
1.) Better control and handling at all speeds, including city, parking lots, twisty back roads, highway..
2.) At speed, the wind helps support my upper body.
3.) My arms and back both absorb the sharp bumps, rather than my back.
4.) I feel more engaged and ready for anything.
5.) Air in my face helps keep me alert
6.) My weight is more evenly distributed on my butt, arms & hands, rather than just butt.
Last March 2015, I messed up my back carrying 5 gallon buckets of drywall compound. I always noticed after riding my 1200 Sport for a period of time, my back would always feel better! Fast forward to 3 months to June '15 when my back was feeling 50% better. I rode to the NH Nat'l rally, 4 days and 1,500 mile. When I got back home, my back was feeling 100%!!! 30 hours of riding with my back stretched slightly forward did it!!!
Note: At the Nat'l rally I test rode a Cali and sat bolt upright ...and my back couldn't take i!
I believe that a "Bolt upright" seating position creates the need for... A.) Wind protection (windshield or fairing) or you get blown back, B.) A custom seat, because all your weight is on your butt which is taking all the shock from bumps.
One summer I rode 9,000 miles on a 30 day trip out to western Canada, California, Oregon, Washington on my BMW R90S and that riding position felt great! On long stretches of interstate, I would lean even farther forward on my tank bag which I still do on my 1200 Sport.
I've heard riders quit riding because their backs couldn't take it anymore... and they were riding bolt upright of course!
Help me here.
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I have a bad vertebrae at the base of my neck that really begins to burn if the riding position requires any upward titling of my head . For any distance the bolt upright position is necessary to remain comfortable .
Dusty
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Tilt forward for me. Knees bent, feet at right angles to my leg.
When my hip packed up the Breva was the most comfortable seat in the house. Getting on was a bit of a mission though. :sad:
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Pressure on my lumbar region has my hip and leg moaning at me on my Breva after 40 miles or so. I am trying to find a more relaxed position either on the Breva or a different motorcycle, preferably a MG.
It pisses me off that my left leg forces me to stop before my butt does. I would love to be able to ride in the tilted position again. But it ain't happening.
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I have to have a driver seat backrest. I rode my buddies sport once. That was it for me. Can not ride them.
Bassa for me and Rocker did not like the Bassa. But then again I didn't like mine either until I made it fit me.
That required a lot of pain till I got it right(for me).
Did like the way the sport handled just couldn't do the lean forward with feet back. Everyone is different . Dusty may have the same neck injuries I have. Maybe a drivers back rest would help Dusty too. Well I say maybe because I don't really thing there is any help for Dusty or me. :cry:
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Chet my old buddy , no truer words have ever been spoken :embarrassed:
Dusty
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:laugh: :grin:
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On my Bonneville, I use rearsets and super bars with a Dart Flyscreen. It works so well, I mounted a set of Chase Harper Stealth panniers and a Roadgear Sport tankbag for short trips. However, on my Vintage the neutral, "bolt-upright" posture works. In fact, I find it much better than most of it's genre due to foot boards being mounted in a "mid-position" and the '02 Stone handlebars that I mounted. For 500-600 mile days, a neutral seated position behind a well sorted windshield is pretty great. Both setups can be the stuff in the right situations...it's nice to have choices.
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Wow, my experience is so different. Once I got behind a windscreen it felt so nice to not be fighting the wind...I wasn't leaning into anything...my neck stopped screaming at me during long rides...my vert with wide bars was like sitting in a comfortable dining room chair, hands wider than shoulders with a slight bend at the elbow..no weight on arms, but a fat arse seat was necessary....90 degrees hip to knee to foot....exact same hand angle as a LeMan V, just up and wide....guess the bolt upright works for me only behind a barndoor
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5.) Air in my face helps keep me alert
I'm with you on most of your points, but I can't understand how sitting upright keeps air off your face. (Maybe you're assuming that if you're sitting upright you have a windshield blocking airflow?)
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I've got several fused vertebrae and sacroiliac joints (all stuff down near the bottom of the spine), so I can't carry weight on my tail - for me, a slight forward lean is essential, particularly for my endurance rides. The Norge lets me carry the weight on my pelvis instead of my spine. Cruiser style kills me, and sport style doesn't work until I'm going fast enough for air pressure to take the pressure off my wrists.
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Everybody is different, the "Master Yoda" seating position is the most common in the IBA and Long Distance Crowd, but doesn't work for everybody. I prefer a seating position that allows both.
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Consider the 2 main choices of riding a horse. Weight distribution and placement of feet to disperse it. English or Western. There are also small variants with bareback and bareback pad. Whatever works for you. :thumb: A big thing has to be the bike itself. MG reference. Cali cruiser style or LeMans/Sports set-up. I like both but prefer the English w/saddle or bareback style more. Throw in a McClellan saddle and that would the most that I could handle for being near a Western style saddle.
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Everyones different, and has different broken parts! I know people who have bikes with bolt up right and tank huggers and they like them both.
Maybe if you NEED a forward lean to ease your lower back, you should look at some hip flexor stretching. Yoga is good for riding :thumb:
The biggest pain I find when riding (other than a bung shoulder due to rotator cuff) is not being able to adjust feet or legs.
My CX has a far softer and comfier seat than my Cali, but as the Cali has floor boards I can alter my leg position quite a bit so can stay on if much longer in on stretch.
The CX because there is only one place for everything to be, after an hour I have to get off.
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I pop my back and stretch before getting on for a ride and while taking a break. I'm also not overweight.
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1.) Better control and handling at all speeds, including city, parking lots, twisty back roads, highway..
2.) At speed, the wind helps support my upper body.
3.) My arms and back both absorb the sharp bumps, rather than my back.
4.) I feel more engaged and ready for anything.
5.) Air in my face helps keep me alert
6.) My weight is more evenly distributed on my butt, arms & hands, rather than just butt.
Help me here.
To me:
1. Is subjective and I disagree for my own needs. It's not like you have to actually muscle a bike through a corner anywhere near legal speeds and balance is balance, you can have it in many different positions.
2. I've never had a problem fighting wind physically even on a naked bike, though i do find a windshield satisfying with an open face helmet.
3. My suspension absorbs most bumps, not my back. But I'm pretty physically fit if the suspension isn't up to the task.
4. Meh, engagement is a frame of mind. I can be engaged from any riding position.
5. I have no problem remaining alert and equally enjoy air in my face, see open face helmet comment.
6. See physically fit comment, but you're fooling yourself if you think your arms are carrying any significant portion of your weight. If you doubt me, try planking for more than a few minutes.
I've had bikes with the riding position you prefer, like my R1100RS, Breva 1100, or Buell ST3.
I could always ride more miles in a day (and preferred to do so) on bikes with the straight up position like my Jackal, Road King, Sportsters etc.
So YMMV.
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I lean forward while sitting on the couch to help distribute the weight and it gets the ice cream bowl closer :food:
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My back has a 'sweet spot' at a slightly forward lean with my foot pegs almost directly under me. Comes from an old lower back and a hip injury from my youth.
If I use rearsets then I need a bit more forward lean, but, then my neck screams at me from the extra head tilt.
And, I absolutely hate the wind noise (even with good earplug) and buffeting. It does not make me more alert. After a few hours it dulls my senses and makes it hard to concentrate on riding and traffic.
My brother likes an even more upright position (he has a BMW GS). Interesting because his other hobby is long distance bicycle racing where is spends most of his position in a severely leaned over position.
Everyone is different in what their body likes, and everyone wants a different experience out of a ride. Heck, look at the guys who LIKE to ride hardtails long distances. :)
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I've got several fused vertebrae and sacroiliac joints (all stuff down near the bottom of the spine), so I can't carry weight on my tail - for me, a slight forward lean is essential, particularly for my endurance rides. The Norge lets me carry the weight on my pelvis instead of my spine. Cruiser style kills me, and sport style doesn't work until I'm going fast enough for air pressure to take the pressure off my wrists.
:1:
I too suffer from sciatica. I find that about 20-25 degrees is about prefect, with my feet directly below me, and low enough so my knees are still not too bent. The ergos of my F800GT are about perfect. The V7 Special ergos are decent, just al little forward lean, but, better than bolt upright. I put 1" lower pegs on it, which made a difference for my knees, and also back. The key to forward learn working for my sciatica is to keep my knees low, which means rear sets, or at least lowered pegs. The the more open the torso to thigh angle, the better.
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6. See physically fit comment, but you're fooling yourself if you think your arms are carrying any significant portion of your weight. If you doubt me, try planking for more than a few minutes.
:1:
But, pegs under you, and some forward lean makes it effortless to unweight your butt and let the arms and (mostly) legs take the shock of the worst bumps in the road (which we have plenty of here in PA).
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I personally like the field of view I have in the "sit-up and beg" position. Especially on the tiger. I can see right over the top of most suv's. Also would rather have my neck in a neutral position
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Proper riding position. :popcorn:
(http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/crop/201403/vespa-946_600x0w.jpg)
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All subjective I guess. My GS400 had very upright seating position and completely naked. When traveling I either used a an adjustable backrest or sleeping bag or luggege on the passenger seat for a backrest.
I find the 8V Norge about perfect for me and on my T-3 I have a bit more forward bars than stock that give an almost identical reach as the Norge. Sorry for the poor picture quality but if you look close you can see where the brake lever is. By the way that is my wife, Ruth.
(http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww107/jpeters16/DSC02053.jpg) (http://s710.photobucket.com/user/jpeters16/media/DSC02053.jpg.html)
GliderJohn
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I like to mix it up on a long ride. Why not have it both (all) ways?
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I expect for any rider there are good and bad postures that both fit the description "bolt upright". My inspiration has been motorcycle police, or my stereotypical impression of their posture anyway which is bent strongly at the hips, enough that the back has an S curve more or less like (good) standing posture.
I've seen pictures of myself on the motorcycle (thank you, red light camera), and I slump more than I intend to. That's hard on everything. I wouldn't be surprised if the same kind of slump could happen in a bent forward position, and it would put more strain on the neck. I've had neck pain sitting upright, too, partly tension coming up from the throttle hand but it's hard to really relax my upper back when slumping even just a little.
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Like many have said, the upright position is easier on the back for some people. I busted up several vertebrae and my pelvis in an accident many years ago and the upright position is much easier for me, anything else is painful.
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There's no conclusion at all that you can derive from a thread like this, except "Everyone is different, and what is torture for one rider is comfort for another".
I don't find that I can even find any information that is useful to transfer to my own comfort from such a discussion. If we were talking about food, it might be interesting to see someone say "I love salsa with lots of cilantro", and I'll say "I'll try that", only to find out I am one of the 30% who is genetically wired such that cilantro tastes like Ivory Soap.
But for riding comfort? Seat? Bars? Pegs? Height? Nobody's experience is of any use to me, much as I might like it to be. And my experience is of no use to anyone else.
Matter of fact, this post might not be of use to anyone else, but sometimes discussions can just be idle speculation and that's part of the deal ....
Lannis
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The potential benefit for me would be, before reading about some people's preference for a forward position (and hearing it from other riders), I'd have probably discounted it as obviously ill suited to long distance riding. After reading about it, I'm still sitting straight -- but some day, I might sit on a motorcycle like that and like it, and I won't automatically assume that it won't work for long distances.
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The potential benefit for me would be, before reading about some people's preference for a forward position (and hearing it from other riders), I'd have probably discounted it as obviously ill suited to long distance riding. After reading about it, I'm still sitting straight -- but some day, I might sit on a motorcycle like that and like it, and I won't automatically assume that it won't work for long distances.
Well, maybe I'm just jaded a bit. After 35 motorcycles and 45 years of riding, I've ridden long distances on every possible combination of seat/peg/bar/height positions on everything from a 160 Honda to three H-D 74s, UJMs, clip-on'ed BSAs, trail-bikes, "adventure-touring" bikes, sport-touring bikes, and so I don't expect any surprise new data about "Well here's something new to try!".
I will say I've never been on a LSR streamliner or a Gurney "Gator" so I've got that to look forward to ....
Lannis
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...only to find out I am one of the 30% who is genetically wired such that cilantro tastes like Ivory Soap.
What percentage of people think it tastes like Ivory Soap, and still love it? That's the group I'm in.
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Back when I was selling motorcycles, I came up with a line that explains all this.
Buying a motorcycle is like buying an off-the-rack suit. There's a chance it may fit you fairly well, but any suit can be more comfortable and better-fitting with some tailoring to match the wearer.
:wink:
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What's a suit ?
Dusty
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What's a suit ?
Dusty
Guys who ride Norges and Stelvios sometimes wear them. Guys who ride old Ambos might, and probably used to. All those other Guzzi riders probably wore their last one at their wedding or grad.
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.....If we were talking about food, it might be interesting to see someone say "I love salsa with lots of cilantro", and I'll say "I'll try that", only to find out I am one of the 30% who is genetically wired such that cilantro tastes like Ivory Soap.....
Only 30%?? Yep, there are many places I won't eat at just because I can't even stand the smell of cilantro.
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WillowStreet:
I strongly agree with you. Very much prefer a slight forward position, and can't take the "bolt upright" position.
I want to lean a bit into the wind, so that at 75-85 mph, my torso is supported.
On the other hand, this will be difference for each individual. Very much dependent on body type, personal preference, and muscle memory.
And yes---riding bikes with a slight forward position makes my bad back feel better too. Very few people believe me when I tell them a long car trip makes my back hurt a lot, but a long bike trip not only does not hurt, but actually helps!
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At 6'5" with tight hamstrings and a very straight lower lumbar back I have to wear a small custom corset for even as little as 10 miles. The corset supports my lower back and unloads the spine by compressing the abdominal area. Always has been that way for me. When packed heavy for camping solo I always try to put the gear where I can use it as a back rest for periods of time when on the slab or straight country roads.
Lean forward kills me due to tight hamstrings with 36" inseams. It's all about biomechanics. At one point on the Mille I lowered the seat 3" along with lower handle bars. Loved it for the twisities but after a 4 or 5 years I put the seat back up 3-4 inches as I never was in the mountains enough to take advantage of the lower aggressive riding position. It was just too hard on my tight legs and lower back. Sport bikes kill me.
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Maybe I should have started out this thread by asking ... "Why do you prefer a bolt upright riding position? What advantages does it offer you?"
I always like to learn new things and ask "WHY".
A few months ago, I asked a rider about his "Ape Hanger" handlebars. He said he prefers them because they give him more control of his bike and likes the way it handles.?!
So many times in life we revert to a "Default" position without giving our decision much thought, like... "Just got me some money, gonna buy me a ________!"
I also thought by stating my preference and why I like what I do that I might learn a thing or two from others and possibly someone might decide to try another seating position and have an "Aha" moment, find it more comfortable with less pain and longer hours in the saddle.
I never thought it would hurt to ask "why do you do what you do?".
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No harm in asking , although the "ape hangar" guy is deluded .
Dusty
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What's wrong with the taste of Ivory soap?
Bill
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No harm in asking , although the "ape hangar" guy is deluded .
Dusty
He's not deluded because it works riding bar to bar. He's never tried then on a twisty road and/or a long trip. Plus he looks so cool in the parking lot chatting with his buds.
Bill
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Riding mostly sportier bikes until I got my Quota I never understood the sit up and beg riding style or luggage. After riding the Quota for a while I realized the sit up and beg bikes I am more comfortable on them and can ride them faster through the tight technical stuff. Field of vision is increased and wide bars on adventure type bike give lots of leverage. Narrow clip-ons and looking through the top 1/3 of my helmet are not as fun as they used to be, plus my gut hit the tank :grin:
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Maybe I should have started out this thread by asking ... "Why do you prefer a bolt upright riding position? What advantages does it offer you?"
well, with the Vert, I could hold the throttle on the right hand, and a beer in the left? ...Now does it all make sense?
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Many young ladies prefer the bolt upright position. Especially if they have a good figure.
I not only enhances good posture but it shows off their assets to best advantage.
I personally ride in the American male slouch position, or the slightly leaned forward position.
It depends on which bike and what I am doing.
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I never thought it would hurt to ask "why do you do what you do?".
Well, it HASN'T hurt, so that worked out OK ... ?
Lannis
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I ride in the "bolt" position because its the most comfortable way for me. I drive a car the same way. I sit in a chair the same way. Leaning forward with weight on my arms and the bumps, vibration from the road puts my hands/arms to sleep and bothers my lower back. To me, leaning forward is a very unnatural way to spend any amount of time.
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The position I can't do is the MFF position that most of the rowdy fast sport bikers favor.
I can't tilt my head up enough on my non neck to see where I am going.
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Surgical intervention on both knees makes the sports riding position out of the question for me, I am also old......
I find the Stelvio is near enough to perfect as I can move around and easily stand up to stretch the knees (even at 110kmh+ depending on wind) :bike-037:
The fun police (aka revenue police) also have a fair bit of say in the comfort issue over here, on a sports bike or sports tourer at less than 140kmh I find there is too much weight on the wrists for me and in any case at that speed one is very close to automatic loss of licence on many roads :angry:
Not to suggest that my relationship with the law doesn't get tested from time to time :evil:, however usually only short bursts unless riding in a pack :boozing:
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I've known since I was 49 my back was totally worn out and just found out it also is not perfectly vertical any more(@ 72). I can only ride long distance 2 ways....leaning forward some or if upright having lower back support. Most my bikes I lean forward. On my maxi-scooters I have a lower back rest. It's those or don't ride any more. In a car/truck I'm fine.
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My first Harley when I was 16 in 1959 had me riding sitting straight up. I switched to Guzzi in '71 and all of them had me sitting straight up until I bought the B-l100. Hey, the lean forward position was comfortable. I never test rode the bike until I left MPH Cycles at 10:00 AM. Was back the next day at noon for the 1,000 mile check. Bolt upright or lean forward makes no difference to me.
Maybe it helps that I never exercise, take any vitamins or touch health food' :laugh:
Enjoy,
Tex
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And yes---riding bikes with a slight forward position makes my bad back feel better too. Very few people believe me when I tell them a long car trip makes my back hurt a lot, but a long bike trip not only does not hurt, but actually helps!
I believe you. I'm the same in this regard.
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"Why do you prefer a bolt upright riding position? What advantages does it offer you?"
In my experience I bought the calvin specifically because of the riding position and I have adapted to it well.. and really so I could see better when touring and I'm in the group to far forward an my neck an right shoulder would complain. to far back an my back hurts,
and then there's the air I get more air and to much is tiring an to little is too.
the calvin can do some serious miles but if just miles were the goal I would go with another bike probable the calvin does it a little slower in my experience with it but I see more, you get the idea yet.
and I feel better everyday I'm on my bike an I hope that never stops happening really after a week or two I'm better. I did not get a long ride in last year probable wont this year I don't expect to jump on my bike an feel strong the first day but in the past after 3 days I'm feeling the benefits. get out there an ride an then start tweaking. Dan
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For me, "it depends".
I have LOTS of issues with my spine. Scoliosis, osteophytes, arthritis and 7 degenerated discs... 4 in my lower back, 3 in my upper/neck. Bad enough that, when my Doc saw my MRI results his response was "holy shit... your back is terrible, like... really bad." I have a standing warning "If you ever lose control of your bowels, call 911 immediately."
Right now, I am dealing with a bulging disc/ nerve impingement in my neck. "Bolt upright" is as comfy as it gets for me right now. Any forward lean results in pretty serious pain down my left arm, upper left 1/4 of my back, and up the left side of my neck and back of head.
Ususally, yes, a bit of forward lean works for me, *as long as my feet are UNDER me*. I can't ride with forward controls... the weight on my ass results in blown discs and nerve issues in my lower back. "Feet under me" allows me to be "springy", and is about as comfy as it gets.
Riding with the typical "chopper slouch" that everybody seems to fall into after a few hundred mile, absolutely destroys my back.
But, at the end of the day, the single WORST thing for my back is doing miles in an automobile. All that weight, on my ass? Anything over a few hours is absolute hell.
So, in short... don't judge. Gotta trust that people are going to ride in a manner that makes them comfortable, after all... you aren't them, so how can you tell, really?
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I should mention something VERY IMPORTANT being that I posted this original thread...
My wife has been doing morning back stretching exercises and touts the benefits of it. The chiropractor gave me several back exercises last year that I did not do until this past March. These back exercises I do laying on the floor every morning for 6 minutes. WHAT A DIFFERENCE THESE STRETCHING / BACK EXERCISES MAKE!!! Unbelievable! At the end of the day I still feel great! AND, this is important, if I did forget to do the exercises in the morning, I am reminded of that in the evening. Yep, I did forget to do them. So every morning I take 6 minutes and do them and I reap the benefits all day long.
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He's not deluded because it works riding bar to bar. He's never tried then on a twisty road and/or a long trip. Plus he looks so cool in the parking lot chatting with his buds.
Bill
I rode with 14" apes for years. Put my hands at just a tony bit below shoulder level. Long trips? Comfy as hell. Twisties? Well, with apes, you're not exactly riding a bike designed to bang through the twisties at WOT, now are we?
But miles upon miles upon miles with apes? Not an issue.
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I should mention something VERY IMPORTANT being that I posted this original thread...
My wife has been doing morning back stretching exercises and touts the benefits of it. The chiropractor gave me several back exercises last year that I did not do until this past March. These back exercises I do laying on the floor every morning for 6 minutes. WHAT A DIFFERENCE THESE STRETCHING / BACK EXERCISES MAKE!!! Unbelievable! At the end of the day I still feel great! AND, this is important, if I did forget to do the exercises in the morning, I am reminded of that in the evening. Yep, I did forget to do them. So every morning I take 6 minutes and do them and I reap the benefits all day long.
One I do is lay on floor draw knees to chest and hold them there while rocking forward and back about ten times.
It seems to work for me.
Dean
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One I do is lay on floor draw knees to chest and hold them there while rocking forward and back about ten times.
It seems to work for me.
Dean
I also do that and pull both legs to chest but don't rock. Laying with back on floor I also do a pelvic tilt 20x, Then with knees bent, I move both knees to each side 20x and then use the left leg to pull the right farther and vice versa. Makes a HUGE difference with my lower back as i go through the day.
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:1:
But, pegs under you, and some forward lean makes it effortless to unweight your butt and let the arms and (mostly) legs take the shock of the worst bumps in the road (which we have plenty of here in PA).
See physically fit comment, it's effortless to unweight myself on the pegs of the Sportster, but see suspension, I never really NEED to.
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No harm in asking , although the "ape hangar" guy is deluded .
Dusty
No shit.
There's preferences and then there's physics and biomechanics.
If the apes are shoulder level or above he's totally deluded.
And i won't bother arguing against preferences, that's cool, but I'll rail against the dieing of the light when it comes to science.
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Yeah.....but they look cool. :grin: I like watching them maneuver at parking lot speeds. I cringe. :tongue:
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Yeah.....but they look cool. :grin: I like watching them maneuver at parking lot speeds. I cringe. :tongue:
I like to ride figure 8's around them feet up in gas station parking lots on the LeMans thump thump thump thump........
I like to call it hog trials :bike-037:
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I believe you. I'm the same in this regard.
On a bike you can move around. In a car you a locking in. When I had back issues riding a bike was fine. Getting on/off the bike or walking was the problem.
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I like to ride figure 8's around them feet up in gas station parking lots on the LeMans thump thump thump thump........
I like to call it hog trials :bike-037:
Ya know what I learned in the martial arts 30 years ago and was reminded on the track yesterday... There's always someone better than yourself.
Crap the only exception the rare world champions and even then the spectre remains if the better competitor just wasn't there that day, or off his game.
Meh, it's fun to compete with others, but for 99.999% of us the only significant opponent is ourselves.
But then again grins are fun...
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Y'ep you are your worse enemy.
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Different strokes for different folks:
(http://motorcycledrillteam.org/graphics/standing_up.jpg)
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tXAPnHbRjow/UtcKVNhOKgI/AAAAAAAACjs/iAptJIuIlic/s1600/2013-08-09-030.JPG)
(http://www.womenridersnow.com/docs/stories/2777/width450/4500.jpg)
(https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.funpicweb.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F09%2Ffunny-bike-riders.jpg&f=1)
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Hey.....what those 2 wheel car thingies called? :evil:
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Different strokes for different folks:
(http://motorcycledrillteam.org/graphics/standing_up.jpg)
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tXAPnHbRjow/UtcKVNhOKgI/AAAAAAAACjs/iAptJIuIlic/s1600/2013-08-09-030.JPG)
(http://www.womenridersnow.com/docs/stories/2777/width450/4500.jpg)
(https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.funpicweb.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F09%2Ffunny-bike-riders.jpg&f=1)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_pwGlFE3S2F8/S9iUhtVtneI/AAAAAAAAAY4/DkwGXhg-lDs/s1600/000indian_larry2.jpg)
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My 75 Eldo has pretty high bars which puts me in the sit up and beg position, when I have the faring on the bike it's really nice ,without the faring I wish they where half as high so i can lean forward into the wind.
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There's no conclusion at all that you can derive from a thread like this, except "Everyone is different, and what is torture for one rider is comfort for another".
I don't find that I can even find any information that is useful to transfer to my own comfort from such a discussion. If we were talking about food, it might be interesting to see someone say "I love salsa with lots of cilantro", and I'll say "I'll try that", only to find out I am one of the 30% who is genetically wired such that cilantro tastes like Ivory Soap.
But for riding comfort? Seat? Bars? Pegs? Height? Nobody's experience is of any use to me, much as I might like it to be. And my experience is of no use to anyone else.
Matter of fact, this post might not be of use to anyone else, but sometimes discussions can just be idle speculation and that's part of the deal ....
Lannis
Lannis took the words right out of my mouth (or right off my fingertips). My Stelvio fits me perfectly and I can ride it all day (now that I've added a Corbin seat). I rode a 1990s Sport once and if that was the only thing Guzzi made, I'd never have a Guzzi. It was a torture device for me.
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When I see a rider coming the other way w/ape hangers I don't bother to wave because he's oblivious to what serious riding is about. If I did wave he wouldn't have a clue why or even notice. Now if he waves first, that's different. But I've never seen that.
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Both upright & forward position suits me as long as the bike is set up for my comfort.
I had a windscreen on my old Mille & after a hundred miles I would get the burn between the shoulders and tingle in the right hand & wrist.
I wanted to change out the bars but could not decide to go lower or higher. Then one hot summer day I took the windscreen off, went for a ride and had covered a hundred miles with no discomfort. Leaning forward with air pushing against my chest and a full face hat is a comfortable ride now.
When I first got the Griso the hands & wrists would tingle in a real short period of time. Again I could not decide to raise or lower the bars. On the Griso forum somebody suggested "Grip Puppies" problem solved. Again I like the forward position.
The Jackal has the OE high bars (almost like mini apes) & a small windscreen so she is an upright rider & quite comfy.
Mostly I ride with my heels hanging off the passenger pegs on all my Guzzi's.
The Vic has a "barn door" windshield, full fairing including hard lowers & the OE floor boards are very long & wide. This is an upright rider & with those big floor boards I can shift my feet all over the place. Best bike ever in the rain! If you can keep the speed over 45mph the rain goes all around you, the wind tunnel engineers did well with that design. Last January I rode non-stop from new Orleans to Lake City FL in about 7.5 hours.
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Uh Red Dog , stock Jackal bars are more of a flat track bend , nothing like mini apes :huh:
Dusty
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Uh Red Dog , stock Jackal bars are more of a flat track bend , nothing like mini apes :huh:
Dusty
I bow to your greater knowledge!
They came with the bike & the owner told me he had bought the bike new & his wife rode it. The bike is very comfortable with them.
(https://s5.postimg.org/jhpld5woz/IMG_0962.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/jhpld5woz/)
[img=https://s5.postimg.org/jhpld5woz/IMG_0962.jpg] (https://postimg.org/image/jhpld5woz/)
https://s5.postimg.org/5o18o443r/IMG_0962.jpg
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My 75 Eldo has pretty high bars which puts me in the sit up and beg position, when I have the faring on the bike it's really nice ,without the faring I wish they where half as high so i can lean forward into the wind.
So change them! I do this every spring. Bars are cheap and it takes about 10 minutes tops (even if you have to change the cables).
Nick
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Girlfriend before I got married, use to call the mini-apes. "Monkey bars." :grin:
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I've always thought "Monkey bars" makes more sense, and would be a much better name, really.
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I bow to your greater knowledge!
They came with the bike & the owner told me he had bought the bike new & his wife rode it. The bike is very comfortable with them.
(https://s5.postimg.org/jhpld5woz/IMG_0962.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/jhpld5woz/)
[img=https://s5.postimg.org/jhpld5woz/IMG_0962.jpg] (https://postimg.org/image/jhpld5woz/)
https://s5.postimg.org/5o18o443r/IMG_0962.jpg
"Greater knowledge" hmm , seriously doubt my knowledge is greater :laugh:
Those look more like EV bars than Jackal bars .
Dusty
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Lannis is spot on -- everyone is different. I don't agree that the discussion is useless. It's always good to know a bit about what other folks experience, and how they solved their problems. Expands my mental toolbox, anyway.
In that spirit I'll add that many decades ago, when my body had not yet suffered a lot of wear and tear, I like clip-ons and rear-sets, and toured all over New England and the Appalachians on a full-Dunstall rig. While working at Microsoft I spent up to 14 hours a day at the computer -- that led to sciatica and pinched nerves in my upper back. Age also earned me degenerative arthritis in my neck. The result is that I can't flex my neck upward for long, with or without the weight of a helmet. I had to replace the drop bar on my road bike with a flat bar, and wound up putting risers on the Guzzi so I could sit up straight. The Funduro riding position is about perfect, except the deeply scooped saddle doesn't let me slide fore and aft as my butt grows weary after a couple of hours. Prefer the footpegs directly under my butt for best control and mobility in the saddle.
Problem now is ischial pain -- bony butt syndrome. Looks like I'm going to have to spend $$$ on some custom seating options.
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Lannis is spot on -- everyone is different. I don't agree that the discussion is useless. It's always good to know a bit about what other folks experience, and how they solved their problems. Expands my mental toolbox, anyway.
I never went as far as "Useless" :angry: ... matter of fact I noted several potential uses for the idea. :thumb: But it's certainly not going to help people in the way that a discussion of, say, different jetting or maps or exhaust might, which is measurable and quantifiable.
"Mental toolbox", that's good. Some people have a 15-drawer Snap-On cabinet, some a five-gallon bucket with a Chinese crescent wrench and a hammer .... :bow:
Lannis
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Actually Lannis' post was really somewhat off topic.
The OP stated "I don't understand people who" and the posts before Lannis were mostly attempts at helping the OP better understand.
Lannis' post was more a critique of the thread and responses.
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Actually Lannis' post was really somewhat off topic.
The OP stated "I don't understand people who" and the posts before Lannis were mostly attempts at helping the OP better understand.
Lannis' post was more a critique of the thread and responses.
So what do I say about a post that is about another post that is a critique of the thread and its responses? I guess you'd say that you're now "exponentially" off topic ... and THIS post is off topic to the 4th power, and your comment to it will be like this is the house that Jack built ... oh, WAY off ....
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So what do I say about a post that is about another post that is a critique of the thread and its responses? I guess you'd say that you're now "exponentially" off topic ... and THIS post is off topic to the 4th power, and your comment to it will be like this is the house that Jack built ... oh, WAY off ....
What you seemed to miss about my post was that it was not a critique of your post per se, but really more a critique of those who agreed with you in that they also missed the point of the thread.
I'm not saying tangents are in any way wrong. But in this case the original one in question did sorta come across as a straw man arguement.
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I don't understand people riding around sitting bolt upright. I ride with a 65 degree forward lean on my 1200 Sport. This is similar to my past bikes... BMW K75S, K75C, and BMW R90S. I'm not talking about clip-ons. I find this slight forward lean provides several advantages that I prefer...
Help me here.
I looked at the 1200 Sport, K75S and, unless I read it wrong, don't have a 65 degree ride angle:
http://cycle-ergo.com/
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Nothing better then sitting up and stretching for the sky! :wink:
(http://thumb.ibb.co/e7zCov/ape_hangers.jpg) (http://ibb.co/e7zCov)
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When I bought my Cali, I had intended to buy the Touring, but decided I liked the clean simplicity of the Custom, along with the superior rear suspension. One reservation I had, though, was the slight (6 degrees according to Cycle-ergo) forward lean, since I generally prefer a straight-up seating position on a cruiser. As it turns out though, that bit of lean shifts some weight from my butt to my thighs, greatly enhancing seat comfort. Combined with the proper density of the seat foam, I find the stock saddle to be all-day comfortable, as long as I get off for a few minutes every once in a while. If I was sitting straight up, I don't think that would be the case. So, the combination works well for me.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO-1O6cLKa4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9Le3LVbsJk
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Very slightly leaning forward works best for me. Achieved this on my V7 by using a flat Airhawk cushion and sitting further back. 2 other improvements with this; softens the harsh rear suspension on the body, reduces some buffeting from the touring screen (which I'm wondering if you're better off without!)
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Since I posted this topic, I've learned a lot and I have a much better understanding of why some riders prefer the upright seating position.
BTW: I measured my 65 degree forward leaning position on both the K75S and 1200Sport by taking pictures of me seated on both. I used a protractor to measure the angle in the picture. You can't get more accurate than that.
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One man's 65 degrees is another's 25..... :wink: :thumb:
Terry
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I've nursed a bad back for a full 25 years now, starting at the age of 42. I fully understand the bolt upright seating.
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How many here have a sprung tractor style seat as on the Eldo and Ambo?
I'm getting close to finishing my Ambo and would really like to put a spring kit on the seat as I'm imagining it would be really cumfy. It's definitely going to ease spinal compression along with well set up suspension.
I get the impression that the Police versions had sprung seats which would indicate that it makes long hours in the saddle more bearable.
Also does anyone know where to get that spring kit? I've seen it somewhere but now I want one it doesn't show on MG Cycles or Harpers.
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When I bought my Cali, I had intended to buy the Touring, but decided I liked the clean simplicity of the Custom, along with the superior rear suspension. One reservation I had, though, was the slight (6 degrees according to Cycle-ergo) forward lean, since I generally prefer a straight-up seating position on a cruiser. As it turns out though, that bit of lean shifts some weight from my butt to my thighs, greatly enhancing seat comfort. Combined with the proper density of the seat foam, I find the stock saddle to be all-day comfortable, as long as I get off for a few minutes every once in a while. If I was sitting straight up, I don't think that would be the case. So, the combination works well for me.
It seems to me 6 degrees might be about normal upright posture. It depends among other things on how you're holding your arms.
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Bolt upright would be 0 degrees, as on the Touring and Eldorado.
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I enjoy riding "sport" or at least sporty bikes - for a very short while that is. The B12 sport I demoed at the VA rally some years ago and the Griso, while not as much forward lean as a true sport bike, were great fun to ride, but I cannot see myself going the distance like I can on my old EV.
The wife and I rode a short distance, about 80 miles, the other day to a catfish place. The roads were rural, hilly, a little curvy, and very nice overall. Again, I thought about how the EV seating position and the bike in general is almost perfect for me, and I just don't "need" another bike right now.
I think my longest non-stop, except for gas and food, ride was about 1400 miles, and the bike was not uncomfortable; I just got dehydrated before I knew it. I don't think I'd be able to do that or come even close on a Griso for example.
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Very slightly leaning forward works best for me. Achieved this on my V7 by using a flat Airhawk cushion and sitting further back.
Exactly my experience. An Airhawk on my V7 with a slight forward lean.
The Airhawk "R" cushion really helps.
But...to each his own.
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I've nursed a bad back for a full 25 years now, starting at the age of 42. I fully understand the bolt upright seating.
And.... the only time I've ever had a "bad back" was when I was riding a cruiser. As mentioned before, everybody is different. Of course, Kev is wrong.. <running and ducking> :smiley:
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Thought I'd chime back in... years ago, mid "kill me now" crushed disc, i asked my physio-therapist what body position would work best for my particular cervical and lower spine issues.
Her response was, essentially... forward pegs and higher bars with considerable pullback (I'm picturing a 70s chop a king/queen seat and 6-bend bars :D ) ... so I continued riding standards with sportbike bars... go figure.
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Bolt upright would be 0 degrees, as on the Touring and Eldorado.
My Eldorado was a long time ago, but I'm pretty sure I didn't sit at what I would call 0 degrees, if we're looking at such fine distinctions as 0 vs. 6 degrees. Whatever motorcycle you ride, you have some degree of choice as to how you sit.
Take this guy -- I wouldn't care to guess exactly where he is, but several degrees forward, though for sure the motorcycle is in the upright category.
(http://www.kenoshapolice.com/sites/default/files/Davemotor.jpg)
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I'd say that rider is "Bolt upright" but slouching. His lower back is 90 degrees, he's just got piss-poor posture.
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Yeah, could be - it's hard to say for sure from that picture, but more forward than this guy, true?
(https://c3.staticflickr.com/6/5260/5482530178_a64b3e0bab_z.jpg)
This looks like the upright/slouch that really starts at 90 degrees at the seat and bends forward -- I would say, ergonomic disaster, but everyone's different!
(http://users.rcn.com/trlambert/ken1.jpg)
But a minute later these guys might have shifted to another position - I mean, if we're measuring down to a couple degrees accuracy, it's a moving target.
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Hell, I'm correcting my slouch all the damn time... arms start to straighten out, shoulders push up, head starts to fall forward, back bows.... and I have to sit up, let my shoulders relax, and my arms hang a bit, lift my head...