Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: robdrobd on July 25, 2016, 10:06:07 PM
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My 2013 Stone has 1800 miles and fails to start 8 out of 10 times. After the first failed start the check engine light illuminates along with the neutral light. I sometimes have to crank the start button 10 to 15 times before it will eventually start. When running, the bike performs very well but the starting problem has become a pain in my butt. I've read all the threads about Fat Duc's and charcoal canisters but none seem to be addressing the problem I am having. I have new properly gapped spark plugs a new battery and run the highest octane gas in my area. I'm going crazy.
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I was going to say get a new battery.. are the connections all clean? including the ground cable where ever it contacts the frame.
also see that the big cable to starter is not loose..
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Connections are tight. It seems to happen more often when is hot and humid outside. Five to ten minutes of me cranking it over until it finally catches. Very annoying.
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Can you clarify a little
You push the button but it doesn't crank
OR
It cranks over normally but just doesn't fire and catch
Have you checked for a spark?
After it does start it idles normally
OR
You have trouble keeping it going
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Cycle the kill switch between start attempts . Check the connection on the engine temp sensor.
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My fuel injected bikes have always failed to fire right up and idle by just pushing the start button. Cracking the throttle and letting some air in lets them fire up very well. Here in Syracuse you can find Ethanol free fuel at some stations but most of our fuel is not Ethanol free. Don't know what you are fueling with but maybe a brand change may help. Mike
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2013 with 1800 miles? Try adding Chevron Techron to the fuel at the correct ratio. Then ride mostly errands where the bike can sit for 10-15 minutes. This allows the cleaners time to do their magic. Make sure you get it up to full operating temp. I suspect you may have some fuel starvation and possibly some deposits on the valves. I experienced this on the Benelli when I first bought it. The injectors were partially clogged with gelled fuel and the fuel pump replaced under warranty. The bike sat unsold for 3 years. It was the demo bike for Benelli USA.
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Cranks strong, won't fire up. New plugs with great spark. Check engine light comes on after first failed attempt. After about ten tries it will fire and stay running, but idles rough. I also noticed that it bucks and Jerks quite a bit in first or second I'd I'm not providing perfect throttle. Someone in another topic suggested that it might be the evap system since this occurs more frequently in the heat and humidity. Is a canisterectomy in order? Please advise.
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Do you know if the initial 600 mile service was done?
Specifically, the head bolt re-torque and valve lash adjustment, in that order.
Any changes from stock intake or exhaust?
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600 mile was completed in full. Bone stock.
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Do you have tank suck? Can you hear a whoosh when you open the tank? Maybe it's not venting.
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Can you here the fuel pump pressurizing the fuel lines when you first turn on the ignition. Steve.
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There is pressure in the tank. Fuel pump is running on intial start..
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Pull the vacuum lines from the canister and cap them temporarily. If that helps, then at some point, you may have over filled the tank and saturated the canister, so it is too rich too start. If that doesn't help, then it isn't the canister. And I wouldn't start making modifications just for grins until you get to the root of the issue.
Have you checked the plug gap? A wide plug gap will do the same things.
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Pull the vacuum lines from the canister and cap them temporarily. If that helps, then at some point, you may have over filled the tank and saturated the canister, so it is too rich too start. If that doesn't help, then it isn't the canister. And I wouldn't start making modifications just for grins until you get to the root of the issue.
Have you checked the plug gap? A wide plug gap will do the same things.
When you say a wide plug gap will do the same thing , what did you mean. I thought a wider gap produced a bigger spark. Mine are gapped to spec. Also, are you saying to disconnect ALL hoses going to the canister and plug them up and see what happens? Is there a diagram out there somewhere? I do not have a user's manual. THANKS
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Until MG finally got it right, some ECU software versions caused difficult starting. Have your dealer install the last version, 352BV738, which is entitled "Improved start consent signal management, improved idle management". If you have access to Guzzidiag, you can check it yourself.
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Until MG finally got it right, some ECU software versions caused difficult starting. Have your dealer install the last version, 352BV738, which is entitled "Improved start consent signal management, improved idle management". If you have access to Guzzidiag, you can check it yourself.
:1:
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How do I get access to guzzi diagnostics? I'd love to check it out
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How do I get access to guzzi diagnostics? I'd love to check it out
I took my 2014 bike to the nearest dealer and spent a half hour of labor to get the new map and reset the EFI.
120 mile ride to the dealer, but I didn't mind...
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=81414.0
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My nearest dealer is over 3 hours away. Not sure my arse can take the 6 hour round trip. :smiley:
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Sometimes on the V7 there's a leak between the metal intake manifold and the cylinder head. The leak adds extra air and causes hard starting. After the engine warms up the leak recedes.
Check by spraying carb cleaner at the joint when the engine is idling. If the engine rpm changes, you've found the leak.
This happened on my V7. I added an extra gasket to fill up the void, and it starts fine now.
Joe
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Upon further inspection of the evap canister it appears that the tank is already vented to the atmosphere. However there are two hoses coming from the throttle body hose directly into the canister. They seem to be wet near the canister with either oil or gas or an oil gas mixture. Could it be possible that the canister is wet and not allowing the bike to start as if it were flooded? Can I remove these two hoses from the manifold to test this Theory?
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(http://thumb.ibb.co/e41x5a/20160726_175910.jpg) (http://ibb.co/e41x5a)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/mYA1WF/20160726_175927.jpg) (http://ibb.co/mYA1WF)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/fHPjka/20160726_175941.jpg) (http://ibb.co/fHPjka)
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Rob,
You've received a lot of good advice, BUT most of it is shotgun and the method may stumble upon the problem, but it's clumsy as a method.
So really the first step is to order the necessary cables and download GuzziDiag. Check for trouble codes and check operating parameters when cranking and idling.
Then start a logical progression of troubleshooting to eliminate possible causes.
GuzziDiag should give you a good idea if it's electronic or not, and spark or fuel, or at least help eliminate some of the items mentioned (like temp sensor).
This behavior is definitely not normal and does NOT sound like the typical cold start reluctance of these models. Though my Stone does idle rough and will die if it doesn't warm up it ALWAYS starts on the first try, in the first few revolutions the motor and always has.
If it has sat a lot these 3+ years with fuel in it I wouldn't be surprised if this was a problem that might be cleared with Techron or the like.
Syracuse, hmm, wonder if Jay and I are going to head that way in a few weeks....
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The hoses from the canister to the throttle body can be removed and plugged off. Seal the nipple off some how, I assume there is vacuum there with the engine running. I am not familiar with the vapor recovery on your bike , but the end result is gas vapors enter your intake and are burned. If the vacuum lines at the intake are full of raw gas, there's a problem.
I'm new to guzzis, but not to wrenching, I'm 50 or so miles from you, if you get desperate.
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Rob,
You've received a lot of good advice, BUT most of it is shotgun and the method may stumble upon the problem, but it's clumsy as a method.
So really the first step is to order the necessary cables and download GuzziDiag. Check for trouble codes and check operating parameters when cranking and idling.
Then start a logical progression of troubleshooting to eliminate possible causes.
GuzziDiag should give you a good idea if it's electronic or not, and spark or fuel, or at least help eliminate some of the items mentioned (like temp sensor).
This behavior is definitely not normal and does NOT sound like the typical cold start reluctance of these models. Though my Stone does idle rough and will die if it doesn't warm up it ALWAYS starts on the first try, in the first few revolutions the motor and always has.
If it has sat a lot these 3+ years with fuel in it I wouldn't be surprised if this was a problem that might be cleared with Techron or the like.
Syracuse, hmm, wonder if Jay and I are going to head that way in a few weeks....
Kev, Where is the best place to get what I need for a diagnostics test?
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There are some threads on here that detail GuzziDiag and I think list some Amazon retailers who sell the cables, they're relatively cheap.
Hmm looks like Syracuse is pretty close to Utica (Saranac) maybe i could convince Jay to head that way.
Funny we literally just got back from the NYST in Davenport a few hours ago. Not that I was traveling with my GuzziDiag cables, which is funny cause I had spares of a bunch of other stuff lol.
Anyway, don't despair, we'll figure this out.
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There is no reasonable line to be drawn between carbon canisters and your starting problem. Folks offer it as a knee-jerk solution to everything from poor gas mileage to flat tires, but I've yet to see any convincing argument for removing them. Arguments, yes. Convincing, never even close. I'd wager a nickel that nobody recommending carbon can removal can even accurately tell you what's in it or how it works -- but they're VERY sure it's evil. Kinda like when an aborigine meets a flashbulb.
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There is no reasonable line to be drawn between carbon canisters and your starting problem. Folks offer it as a knee-jerk solution to everything from poor gas mileage to flat tires, but I've yet to see any convincing argument for removing them. Arguments, yes. Convincing, never even close. I'd wager a nickel that nobody recommending carbon can removal can even accurately tell you what's in it or how it works -- but they're VERY sure it's evil. Kinda like when an aborigine meets a flashbulb.
+1 Brazilian!
My Stone wears it's EVAP canister with a happy face, and the tech guys at the track asked about the literal happy face yesterday morning.
I've tried blocking off the EVAP canister purge line and it had ZERO, ZIP, NADA of an effect on cold start issues.
Granted I'm sure it could have a minor effect under the right conditions, it's just I've never seen them... In decades...
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There is raw gas at the point where my vents enter the canister. That's why I was thinking maybe the canister is flooded?
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There is raw gas at the point where my vents enter the canister. That's why I was thinking maybe the canister is flooded?
You still haven't given us a history of the bike.
1. In a crate till 3 months ago, not canister.
2. Sold in 13, mostly sat with full fuel tank and temperature swings, sure, maybe canister.
But even then, honestly, rich is good for cold starts. It shouldn't crank forever and not fire. It should fire and stumble.
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It's on the very outside kinda maybe possible to flood a carbon can if you overfilled the gas tank, had no venting working, and managed enough pressure to back up a pint of gas into the evap loop. But if that was a reasonable possibility, everyone with the cans removed would have a pint of gas on the garage floor since there'd be no can to catch it, and that doesn't happen.
Even if it did, this is part of the vent system. It vents. That means that the gas would evaporate and get sucked into the throttle bodies and burned (as designed). The holes in the TB spigots the can hoses connect to are about 1mm in diameter, so anything -- raw gas, fumes, vapors, air . . . anything -- is going to get pulled into the intake very slowly. Not enough to affect starting or running.
If you are concerned about flooded cans (again -- never seen it despite some folks' claims of having a cousin once who saw someone talking to someone who claimed it) you can attach an air hose to the fuel tank side and blow a 50gal tank of air through it on a 3# regulator -- just enough to circulate air. The air will evacuate anything in there. Of course running the bike for an hour will do the same thing.
But given your symptoms I really think you're focused on a non-issue.
Have you used the 15-sec rule? I have one bike that won't start (cold in the morning) on the first punch of the button unless I give it 15sec between turning on the ignition and trying the starter. The conventional wisdom says that's because the ecu has to poll its sensors and make startup decisions based on temperature and such. Starting it before the ecu sorts itself out is like trying to start me before I've had my coffee. There's going to be a fight and I'll be grumpy about it.
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Well, they're is no way I wait 15 seconds to start it, maybe I'll try. I bought the bike from Kentucky in March with 650 miles (right after its initial break in check up). Brought it back to NY and it drove and started great for two months. In June it was very warm for Syracuse. It would start in the morning (55 degrees ), but by the end of the day it would not start when I came home from work (85 degrees). Is been unseasonably hot since then, and about 75% of the time now it is a total b$!ch to start. I've changed oil, replaced plugs, purchased a new battery, and tried ten different kinds of gas octane levels. A friend mine said to stick a finger in the exhaust hole because that gets lots of things started. :shocked:
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Nah, with all due respect to RK (who knows a ton), no 15 seconds is required on the V7 Stone... Not mine at least.
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A frustrating problem, for sure. I have a 2016 V7II and one morning had difficulty starting. They definitely run lean. Someone on the forum recommended advancing the cold start lever. Hmmm, since they have not put those on in a few years the next best thing was to turn the handgrip the smallest amount. That did it and she fired right up. Something simple to try. Lots of folks have commented about the improved starts with the new mapping, so that is probably a worthwhile upgrade.
One thing that jumped out at me; "run the highest octane gas in my area." That actually may make it harder to start. Octane retards ignition. Use the lowest octane fuel that does not cause pre-ignition. The V7 is supposed to run with 90 minimum, so find some 90 or alternate 91 and 89 as you fill up in the future. As long as the bike doesn't knock or ping you are fine. Not that Syracuse is very high, but theoretically you can lower the octane as the bike goes up in elevation (something like one per 3000 feet). I used to own an airplane that required a minimum of 73 octane. When we used "mogas" (87 octane autofuel) it was easy to start (hand propping was required). When we had to put in 100LL she was always harder to start.
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If this persists and you can't get it right go to Jim Hamlin in Danbury, CT. About 5 hours from you.
It'll be fixed in a day.
I'm in Buffalo and it's where I go for all my work. Long way but he's a top notch wrench. I'm riding my Norge there in a few weeks for tires and basic service. I ride my V7 there for the same also.
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If this persists and you can't get it right go to Jim Hamlin in Danbury, CT. About 5 hours from you.
It'll be fixed in a day.
I'm in Buffalo and it's where I go for all my work. Long way but he's a top notch wrench. I'm riding my Norge there in a few weeks for tires and basic service. I ride my V7 there for the same also.
Isn't there a Guzzi dealer in Buffalo?
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For a quickie test, pull the main fuses or disconnect the battery for a few minutes. This will reset the auto trims. If it is a troublesome map causing this, this will set the fuelling to factory default.
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Battery was changed two weeks ago. Had zero effect on the poor Starting.
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Has it done it ever since you've owned it? Have checked to see if there's any oil in the airbox?
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Nah, with all due respect to RK (who knows a ton), no 15 seconds is required on the V7 Stone... Not mine at least.
It's not required on the trike, either. In fact that one works best if I punch the starter before the fuel pump stops priming. So less than 3sec. But for that first start of the day the Convert insists on every bit of 15. If I get impatient it punishes me by running rough until I stop it and start it again.
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""There is pressure in the tank"". Fuel pump is running on intial start..
So, after you shut down, open the gas cap, is there a "swoosh" noise, or any indication of air pressure in the tank?
Maybe take a picture of the spark plugs and post it, if its an evap issue the plugs would be showing rich.
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Yes, there is.
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Not a Guzzi but a Piaggio-our Vespa ET4 had starting-and eventually running-problems that actually were caused by the charcoal canister system. I suspect the scooter was overfilled, and the lines to the canister were blocked. This was a carbed bike though.
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Despite rodekyll's protestations, get rid of that canister. It doesn't add anything to performance, and is just another potential source of vacuum leaks.
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I think there has to be some basic diagnostics performed here. Is your bike not starting because it is lean or rich? Is the evap system adding fuel or not? I like to smell the exhaust pipe if a bike cranks for any amount of time or pull a plug. Checking the spray pattern on an injector by spraying a piece of cardboard is quick and easy. Also easy to see if it is leaking. From your description of harder starting in the heat of day, I would be looking at too much fuel. Mike
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I was taught that the correct procedure is to cycle( turn off then on) the kill switch after a failed start. The theory is that it resets the ECU, but I don't know if it actually does that.Works for me. The symptoms suggest a problem with the engine temp sensor to Dusty and meself. Use GuzziDiag to check then report back please.
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Well, they're is no way I wait 15 seconds to start it, maybe I'll try. I bought the bike from Kentucky in March with 650 miles (right after its initial break in check up). Brought it back to NY and it drove and started great for two months. In June it was very warm for Syracuse. It would start in the morning (55 degrees ), but by the end of the day it would not start when I came home from work (85 degrees). Is been unseasonably hot since then, and about 75% of the time now it is a total b$!ch to start. I've changed oil, replaced plugs, purchased a new battery, and tried ten different kinds of gas octane levels. A friend mine said to stick a finger in the exhaust hole because that gets lots of things started. :shocked:
Do you add throttle when cranking, or are you just pushing the start button and not touching the throttle.
I would roll in a little throttle, while cranking, to see if it will help.
You really should consider getting the bike to a competent mechanic who can check the EFI and update it as needed.
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You really should consider getting the bike to a competent mechanic who can check the EFI and update it as needed.
I agree that someone competent should look at it.
But I can't stress enough that THIS ISN'T A SIMPLE MATTER OF THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE ORIGINAL MAP (#3523V&149, unless it was corrupted somehow) and the new MAP (#352BV738). I had the original map for a couple of years and though it NEVER had a problem starting (it had a problem maintaining cold idle and sometimes stalling after startup, but it always fired up).
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It's hot today and the bike did not start. I pulled plugs and they are not wet and seem to resemble nice firing plugs in IMO. However, there is still gas nearly dripping from the evap cannister. This afternoon I'm going to disconnect it quickly and see what happens. My question is this. I only have two hoses going into my canister and both are coming from the throttle body junction. None of the hoses going into the can seem to be coming from the tank. Could this be the problem? Diagram of my bike shows one hose coming from bottom of tank and one coming from throttle Junction. My bike has to hoses coming from throttle Junction area and connecting to canister. That's it.
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Disconnect the two hoses at the throttle bodies. Cap them temporarily on the engine side.
I saw this an a Breva. The tank was overfilled. That saturated the canister. In hot weather it pushed fuel into the lines going to the engine. In hot weather, the engine does NOT want to start with that excess fuel.
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Save yourself a lot of aggravation. Disconnect the fuel canister. I have the exact same problem with the Breva had the same problem with a Ducati. Fuel in the canister, whether over filled or not is vapourizing and throwing off and confusing the fuel injection system. It is not electrical as the plugs aren't wet and the bike turns over. It is not mapping as the bike starts fine when it is cool outside. I find my Breva is a hard start especially when it is parked in the sun and will often find fuel on the ground below the overflow. DISCONNECT the cannister and I'm quite confident your problem will be solved!!!
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Save yourself a lot of aggravation. Disconnect the fuel canister. I have the exact same problem with the Breva had the same problem with a Ducati. Fuel in the canister, whether over filled or not is vapourizing and throwing off and confusing the fuel injection system. It is not electrical as the plugs aren't wet and the bike turns over. It is not mapping as the bike starts fine when it is cool outside. I find my Breva is a hard start especially when it is parked in the sun and will often find fuel on the ground below the overflow. DISCONNECT the cannister and I'm quite confident your problem will be solved!!!
I disconnected the canister to see what would happen. Took about 5 minutes. Turned key and it fired right up, no hesitation. It's 90 degrees and humid. With the canister connected today. The bike would not start. I am still going to get the cables and update the map, but for now I'm leaving this evap off so I can ride. Do I just plug the hose from the throttle body and vent the tank hose to atmosphere? I also noticed that the tank vent hose has a check valve in the middle of it. What should I do with that little booger? Thanks to everyone that responded. I am more than pleased with the results of this little experiment.
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Hah!
Anyway, if it runs with the hose plugged, ok-a carbed bike won't. Vent tank to atmosphere. The doo-dad is a tipover valve, ignore it.
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Hah!
Anyway, if it runs with the hose plugged, ok-a carbed bike won't. Vent tank to atmosphere. The doo-dad is a tipover valve, ignore it.
Because, of course, you're never going to tip over your bike and have fuel pour onto your hot pipes.
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I disconnected the canister to see what would happen. Took about 5 minutes. Turned key and it fired right up, no hesitation. It's 90 degrees and humid. With the canister connected today. The bike would not start. I am still going to get the cables and update the map, but for now I'm leaving this evap off so I can ride. Do I just plug the hose from the throttle body and vent the tank hose to atmosphere? I also noticed that the tank vent hose has a check valve in the middle of it. What should I do with that little booger? Thanks to everyone that responded. I am more than pleased with the results of this little experiment.
5 minutes? What did you disconnect? Not the carbon cans? You disconnect the carbon cans by pulling those little hoses at the throttle bodies. 1sec max.
Disconnect the two hoses at the throttle bodies. Cap them temporarily on the engine side.
I saw this an a Breva. The tank was overfilled. That saturated the canister. In hot weather it pushed fuel into the lines going to the engine. In hot weather, the engine does NOT want to start with that excess fuel.
If that's the case, then it's not a carbon canister problem. It's a problem of overfilling the tank. Why blame the carbon can on rider error?
If the tank is constantly pushing fuel into the canister there's a problem with the tank or the fueling method, not the canister. I think you're homing in on the problem, but your solution is like letting air out of your good tire to match pressure with the flat one, or turning off your headlight because the charging system doesn't work. You need to fix why the fuel gets there, not break something else to mask the problem.
Again (and for the last time) -- the evap system is a passive one. It acts on nothing. Assuming the rest of the bike is in good order, it has no effect on starting the bike.
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Give it up, rk. The canister is the divil's work, and must be removed. :laugh:
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Like I said, it's similar to an aborigine meeting a flashbulb. Science hasn't got a chance in the court of well-established myth and superstition. I leave this discussion to ponder the elevation of ignorance in these enlightened times. :lipsrsealed:
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Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out! :whip2:
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Thanks, Beetle. Coming from you that's special.
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Again (and for the last time) -- the evap system is a passive one. It acts on nothing. Assuming the rest of the bike is in good order, it has no effect on starting the bike.
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Well, in this case I would have to say the evap system is more of the civil disobedient type rather than the passive resistant type. Kinda like Gandhi. I've put 150 miles on my bike since removing it. It starts every time, idles much better, and doesn't buck in low gears. If anything, NOW my entire bike is passive. :thumb:
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Disclaimer to Catholics.
"It doesn't run. I've done everything to get it running. It's a mystery!" After it runs. "It's a miracle!" :grin: :grin: :grin:
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But it can't be the canister! rodekyll's huge intellect and impressively massive ego tells us so. I blame the faeries.
Good job robdrobd!
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But it can't be the canister! rodekyll's huge intellect and impressively massive ego tells us so. I blame the faeries.
[snip]
Yes. Blame the fairies. Overfilling the tank and flooding the vent system couldn't possibly have anything to do with it.
When the facts fail you, the personal insults follow. :rolleyes:
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Yes. Blame the fairies. Overfilling the tank and flooding the vent system couldn't possibly have anything to do with it.
When the facts fail you, the personal insults follow. :rolleyes:
I appreciate EVERYBODY'S input and will gladly ride with anyone.
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Rob, I'm sincerely trying to help you fix a problem here. I have no problem with the differing opinions on the subject (although I feel the personal attacks are beyond the limit). But I feel you're addressing a symptom with the canisterectomy, not the disease.
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Rob, I'm sincerely trying to help you fix a problem here. I have no problem with the differing opinions on the subject (although I feel the personal attacks are beyond the limit). But I feel you're addressing a symptom with the canisterectomy, not the disease.
You started the personal attacks, by basically calling everyone who mentioned the canister 'ignorant'.
Like I said, it's similar to an aborigine meeting a flashbulb. Science hasn't got a chance in the court of well-established myth and superstition. I leave this discussion to ponder the elevation of ignorance in these enlightened times. :lipsrsealed:
Plus, you insulted my ancestors. Racist pig.
Your clearly a troll. Adding you to my ignore list.
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Oh, my!
ab·o·rig·i·ne
/ˌabəˈrijənē/
noun
noun: aborigine; plural noun: aborigines
a person, animal, or plant that has been in a country or region from earliest times.
It's standard English. If you go from that to "racist pig", then please do add me to your ignore list, on account of having an educated conversation with you would be impossible.
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I am not a fan of removing the Evap system either. The system should work fine if you just do not overfill your fuel tank. I for one do not want gas fumes in my nice heated garage space where my bikes are coddled all Winter(seems like 6 months most years). Mike
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The inline valve being talked about is likely NOT a tipover valve. There is a pressure valve or one way valve in there. The tipover valve 'rattles'.
If that's the case, then it's not a carbon canister problem. It's a problem of overfilling the tank. Why blame the carbon can on rider error?
Trust me, my late model bikes keep the canister. They keep the fuel smell down in the garage. I soaked my Stelvio canister and I had to put up with poor starting for a month. Not sure of a good way to purge them clear other than days of riding at low speed (high vacuum).
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I removed mine on my Ducati and I will do the same on the Breva during its nest service. Your garage will not fill with fumes and the smell of gas will not permeate your home. Motorcycles, cars, lawnmowers etc have not had canisters for years with no garages blowing up. The only issue that I can think of with regard toe canister removal would be in California due to their stricter emission regulations.
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I removed mine on my Ducati and I will do the same on the Breva during its nest service. Your garage will not fill with fumes and the smell of gas will not permeate your home. Motorcycles, cars, lawnmowers etc have not had canisters for years with no garages blowing up. The only issue that I can think of with regard toe canister removal would be in California due to their stricter emission regulations.
I've had multiple motorcycles for years (decades) It does make a difference. Admittedly small. Mostly my riding gear near a freely vented bike would acquire the smell.
Or maybe that we from me. :boozing:
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This discussion is funny. Reminds me of countless discussion on boating forums regarding the VRO oiling system that was used on the old Evinrude/Johnson outboard engines. The system was well-engineered and bulletproof, but it was regarded as causation of all bad things that could happen: blown engines, hangovers, Tsunamis,...
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I might have missed a detail or two....
But if you suspect a fuel issue, have you tried removing a plug after a failed crank to see if it's wet and if you can smell petrol from the plug hole? If there's no smell and plugs are dry, there's no fuel.
Do these things have a separate cam and crank sensor? or just the one?
I ask because I recently had another vehicle with the same symptoms and it turned out to be a faulty cam sensor. Engine would only fire once the crank had done enough revolutions for the ecu to work out where everything was as it wasn't receiving the more often cam sensor signal.
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Occasional over-filling does happen-the system should be able to handle it but this one didn't I guess, and the Vespa deal is nearly universal on the carbed 4 strokes. No odors at all.
Overfilling a Scout causes the bike to pee gas on the ground.
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Fwiw, I fill mine on the centerstand and top it off all the time and never had a problem. Something is not right, but I guess that something could have been the canister itself.
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Not to keep pounding, but carbed Vespas had a green thing that was intended to keep one from overfilling-but it was not well understood and many people removed it as it made filling difficult for those used to watching the fuel level.
Ours was left in. But overfilling still occurred.
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So OP says plugs were not fouled, so the canister was not full of gas. which leads me to believe there was a tank vent issue. Which is probably still present.
OP, make sure none of the lines you disconnected have vacuum present with engine running.
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I don't understand why people REFUSE to accept the canister as the culprit. OP says bike is problematic when it is hot. Disconnect canister and bike starts fine. Sounds like the canister is the problem to me. OP, disconnect the darn thing and go riding. Enjoy.
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IF it's something else. It'll show it's nasty head. If not then should be clear sailing. Save the stuff that's removed. When you sell the bike give it to the next owner. If the bike ends up in California the next owner will have to put it back on to conform CARB regulations.
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I don't understand why people REFUSE to accept the canister as the culprit. OP says bike is problematic when it is hot. Disconnect canister and bike starts fine. Sounds like the canister is the problem to me. OP, disconnect the darn thing and go riding. Enjoy.
I don't see anyone refusing to accept what has happened.
A few are questioning whether or not the problem with the canister was the canister itself or if it was a symptom of another problem.
But like Tom says, if it's the latter, it will reveal itself eventually.
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I don't see anyone refusing to accept what has happened.
A few are questioning whether or not the problem with the canister was the canister itself or if it was a symptom of another problem.
But like Tom says, if it's the latter, it will reveal itself eventually.
Well, at least if something does happen I'll have at least two strong opposing opinions to base my next decision on. :grin:
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Well, at least if something does happen I'll have at least two strong opposing opinions to base my next decision on. :grin:
:laugh: :thumb:
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Uh....."If it ain't broke. Don't fix it." :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
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Uh....."If it ain't broke. Don't fix it." :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
EGG-ZACTLY WHY the canister is STILL ON our 696 and V7! :thumb:
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time for this again?
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Guzzi/i-mzCXtmj/1/XL/Duck-XL.jpg) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/Guzzi/i-mzCXtmj/A)
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Hangover 3. Alan's giraffe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS3KzwmU8Tg