Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: scura283 on July 26, 2016, 04:02:13 PM
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http://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/exclusive-leaked-pictures-of-the-new-harley-107-milwaukee-eight-engine
Don't know if this creditable or not, but a lot of information.
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Harley had an eight valve way back in 1916.
http://www.fredlangerestorations.com/1916-8-valve_motor.html
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$16K for the engine. :tongue:
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Will they be as quick as the 8V Norge? Just don't hit the corners too hard.
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Interesting, but a Harley (other than the VRod/Street) with VALVE ADJUSTMENTS? Hmmmm...
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looks like a Honda
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Interesting, but a Harley (other than the VRod/Street) with VALVE ADJUSTMENTS? Hmmmm...
Almost as blasphemous as putting the oil filter inside the engine. What could go wrong?
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Feuling designed and sold 8-valve H-D heads back in the 90's. They did not gain widespread use then but a newly designed engine just may be a hit.
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whee.
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Hope they didn't get pointers from Guzzi.
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LOL
It's another landmark change to a "new" motor for The Motor Company if this is correct.
Horsepower of this engine should show a significant leap. A 114 and a 131 is supposedly in the offing for later.
I will be interested to see the specs. Typically, two big valves pass plenty of flow for a slow-turning huge twin. But, a 4-Valve head will allow better flow and it will allow a more compact combustion chamber.
The pictures shown reveal the line up of the pushrod tubes with a central single cam as was the case with the Evo and prior motors. Many people thought the Twin Cam engines brought unnecessary complication with the two chains and drive plate to turn the two cams.
H-D is already improving suspension and drivetrain. These changes along with a new, more powerful engine, will put them even further ahead of the pack in their market.
Exciting news in the Big Twin world.
In the mean time... I will soldier on with my Twin Cam Super Glide with its new bigger bore and 204 cams. It pulls like a freight train.
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HP increase, 65 to 75. :boozing:
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<<In the mean time... I will soldier on with my Twin Cam Super Glide with its new bigger bore and 204 cams. It pulls like a freight train.>>
Me too, my 95" Dyna with head work and 204 cams is still fun to ride, 100,000 miles and still going strong.
Bob
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HP increase, 65 to 75. :boozing:
Not to spoil the sarcastic rhetoric but a 1996 1340cc EVO made 60 rwhp stock, and a 2016 1200cc EVO Sportster (the new CX) makes about 70 rwhp stock.
We all know that Harleys aren't about peak hp, but that 2016 CX is a pretty nice balance of hp and torque.
I would imagine these 4V big twins would make respectable numbers, again for what they are.
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I don't mention this too often but I have a 1986 FLH with a big bore 88 cubic inch EVO, Edelbrock heads, cam, carb, ect....
It makes 82 horse and 88 lb ft of torque to the ground. It's damned strong and pulls the front wheel slightly every time you shift into 2nd and holds it till shifting into 3rd. I don't ride it often cause it handles like a sofa that fell out of the back of a pickup. But she's fun!
When I comes to HD I'm a EVO lover since they wind up better than a TC
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I don't mention this too often but I have a 1986 FLH with a big bore 88 cubic inch EVO, Edelbrock heads, cam, carb, ect....
It makes 82 horse and 88 lb ft of torque to the ground. It's damned strong and pulls the front wheel slightly every time you shift into 2nd and holds it till shifting into 3rd. I don't ride it often cause it handles like a sofa that fell out of the back of a pickup. But she's fun!
When I comes to HD I'm a EVO lover since they wind up better than a TC
:thumb:
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My oldest son bought a new Ultra Classic with liquid cooled heads. It pulls hard, and is smooth right off idle. He traded in a nice low miles K bike for it. He runs thru corners, bags, trunk & all, as fast as I care to follow. I noticed in the comments of the article some people knocking the big Indians. My nephew has one and it's obvious that those who throw BS like that around have never been on one. Some people just like to make stink, I guess. I'm not a Harley guy and will never be, that doesn't mean they're all junk. Come to think of it, his 1200 Sporty has been around several years now, I don't remember him having a single repair on that, either.
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Those who have never ridden a modified high HP rubber mount Harley are missing an unique experience...
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Those who have never ridden a modified high HP rubber mount Harley are missing an unique experience...
Until they mount a BIG BLOCK 8V Guzzi. :boozing:
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Isn't a modern 4 valve head design with central or dual spark plugs a better proposition when dealing with emission regs ?
Dusty
Yes, the smaller volume shallow combustion chamber allows higher compression without detonation and a more complete burn ...Dual plugs may be necessary on large bore engines.
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update:http://www.cycleworld.com/harley-davidson-motorcycles-new-milwaukee-eight-big-twin-engine
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http://allenmuseum.com/gallery/main/Harley_Davidson_1926_8_valve_replica.htm "What's old is new again." :shocked:
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Scura...fixed it for you.
http://www.cycleworld.com/harley-davidson-motorcycles-new-milwaukee-eight-big-twin-engine
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Will they sounds like Harley's? If they don't sales will go sour.
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It sounds like every other HD, there's a recording of it on youtube.
The article I read, said the valve architecture is very similar to the 8v big block Guzzi!
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Milwaukee Eight from Harley-Davidson (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLCrS1ZZAk0)
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The More Powerful, All-New Milwaukee-Eight Engine | Harley-Davidson (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0a02sLwOAo)
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At least they new where to look for ideas.
Mark Cook of Motorcyclist wrote, "There are many clever design details in the valve train alone, which vaguely resembles a four-valve Moto Guzzi�s in the sense of there being a single pushrod for each pair of intake and exhaust valves per cylinder reaching from the cam case up to a robust-looking rocker-arm assembly that operates each valve with a separate arm."
As the saying goes, "If you can't beat-em, join-em"
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And they went with a counter balancer! Please, that was one of the cooler things I would give HD and Guzzi credit for, not wussying out and caving to timed.
But I do understand, as articles state, they are after conquest sales.
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The 2017 Ultra Classic will have a Milwaukee-Eightâ„¢ 107ci with 111.4 ft-lb Engine Torque.
http://www.harley-davidson.com/content/h-d/en_US/home/motorcycles/tools/compare-bikes.html
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http://www.harley-davidson.com/content/h-d/en_US/home.html (http://www.harley-davidson.com/content/h-d/en_US/home.html)
(http://www.cycleworld.com/sites/cycleworld.com/files/styles/large_1x_/public/images/2016/08/harley-davidson-milwaukee-eight-v-twin-engine-lead.jpg?itok=b3GY0uB9&fc=50,50)
(http://www.cycleworld.com/sites/cycleworld.com/files/styles/large_1x_/public/images/2016/08/harley-davidson-milwaukee-eight-v-twin-engine-1-rocker-arms.jpg?itok=xCtzEA7e)
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And they went with a counter balancer! Please, that was one of the cooler things I would give HD and Guzzi credit for, not wussying out and caving to timed.
But I do understand, as articles state, they are after conquest sales.
Except every HD BT built for years has been rubber mount or counter balanced . Give me the counter balanced engine .
Dusty
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If I understood it correctly they went with BOTH rubbermounts AND counterbalancing. The latter purposely designed to only eliminate about 75% of the vibration because they've found their customers rebel if it's too smooth.
And to be honest, we've heard the appliance criticism of other brands for those reasons.
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OK, 8 valves, but what about the RPMs? if it doesn't rev, then you're talking marginal power differences vs the standard bike. Perhaps better emissions and gas mileage, smoother, stronger torque?
When does the VTEC kick in? :violent1:
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Without a good suspension system, a newer engine to go slow won't be worth the extra money.
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OK, 8 valves, but what about the RPMs? if it doesn't rev, then you're talking marginal power differences vs the standard bike. Perhaps better emissions and gas mileage, smoother, stronger torque?
Borrowed from an acquaintance at the XLforum:
motorcycledaily.com posted a link (http://www.motorcycledaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/2017-mc-ctrr.xls (http://www.motorcycledaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/2017-mc-ctrr.xls)) to an EPA spreadsheet that lists certification data for 2017 motorcycles.
In the spreadsheet, the rpm is listed under a column labeled EDV Rated RPM. EDV stands for "emission data vehicle." Not sure if that is the same as peak hp rpm. 4K seems kind of low for peak hp rpm of a Twin Cam.
In the spreadsheet, the XG500 and the V-Rod are listed as not using catalysts.
Per the spreadsheet:
Model: hp/rpm
XG500: 36.3/7,250
XG750: 59/8,000
XL883: 53.6/6,000
XL1200: 67/5,500
V-Rod: 122-127/8,250
Twin-Cam 103: 80.5/4,000
Twin-Cam 110: 87.2/4,000
Milwaukee-Eight 107: 93/5,020
Milwaukee-Eight 114: 101/5,020
Without a good suspension system, a newer engine to go slow won't be worth the extra money.
I haven't read the details yet, but the touring models (the only ones getting the M8 motor this year) also get a new hydraulically adjustable rear suspension (as opposed to the previous air adjustable shocks).
That said, the suspension wasn't really a big concern on most BTs, especially the touring models.
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OK if this engine is making 107-114 HP that's pretty salty. Their previous big blocks made something like 70HP at the tire. That's a hefty increase or 50%!
I'll be the first to admit that's impressive performance. It should be more than enough to keep up with the Cal 1400 and spank most Moto Guzzis (my V11 Sport included). It looks like we'll have the first performance oriented big Harley. Now they'll need to build the rest of the bike to handle it.
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Friends don't let friends ... well , you fill in the blanks .
Dusty
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OK if this engine is making 107-114 HP that's pretty salty. Their previous big blocks made something like 70HP at the tire. That's a hefty increase or 50%!
I'll be the first to admit that's impressive performance. It should be more than enough to keep up with the Cal 1400 and spank most Moto Guzzis (my V11 Sport included). It looks like we'll have the first performance oriented big Harley. Now they'll need to build the rest of the bike to handle it.
The 107 and 114 is the cubic inches not the HP.
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OK if this engine is making 107-114 HP that's pretty salty. Their previous big blocks made something like 70HP at the tire. That's a hefty increase or 50%!
I'll be the first to admit that's impressive performance. It should be more than enough to keep up with the Cal 1400 and spank most Moto Guzzis (my V11 Sport included). It looks like we'll have the first performance oriented big Harley. Now they'll need to build the rest of the bike to handle it.
93 and 101 hp respectively, probably at crank and a few hp lost by rear wheel, but not much based on other numbers on that chart.
Keep in mind these are still not supposed to be high hp motors, they are still going to be tuned for torque, but they should get out of their own way nicely.
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I wounder if they will do the same to a new Sportster motor?
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93 and 101 hp respectively, probably at crank and a few hp lost by rear wheel, but not much based on other numbers on that chart.
Keep in mind these are still not supposed to be high hp motors, they are still going to be tuned for torque, but they should get out of their own way nicely.
Highly unlikely, upper RPM's is still around 5k. I bet RWHP will not be more than 75. :thumb:
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Highly unlikely, upper RPM's is still around 5k. I bet RWHP will not be more than 75. :thumb:
No, not unlikely at all, comparing the other motors in the test to various rwhp numbers from sources like MCN, cycle world, motorcyclist, etc. over the years suggests those numbers are probably not far from actual rwhp.
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I wounder if they will do the same to a new Sportster motor?
The Sportster is a pretty different beast, a unitized, four camshaft, EVO. It never received any of the Twin Cam upgrades unless you consider they essentially both got feedback EFI and increased cooling capacities in 07.
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Highly unlikely, upper RPM's is still around 5k. I bet RWHP will not be more than 75. :thumb:
Torque and HP figures for the bigger motor are actually more than a Honda Goldwing which are around 100 HP and 100 ft/lbs. The Ultra Classics weigh around 900 lbs which is about the same as a Goldwing. Goldwings do the 1/4er in the low 12's. Put that motor in an unfaired Harley and you should be looking at mid to low 11's. Not bad.
I'll be looking forward to the road tests.
Pete
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Rumor has it the new "wart" head will be a unit construction design .
Dusty
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Rumor has it the new "wart" head will be a unit construction design .
Dusty
Are you talking the M8 (it's not) or am I missing the joke
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Are you talking the M8 (it's not) or am I missing the joke
The wart head or unit construction part ? :laugh:
Dusty
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No, not unlikely at all, comparing the other motors in the test to various rwhp numbers from sources like MCN, cycle world, motorcyclist, etc. over the years suggests those numbers are probably not far from actual rwhp.
This is misleading -> The 2017 Ultra Classic will have a Milwaukee-Eightâ„¢ 107ci with 111.4 ft-lb Engine Torque.
That number is before all the emission crap is installed. :boozing:
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The 107 and 114 is the cubic inches not the HP.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/73/13/3e/73133e44999619e2ff07daa3b7eaf44f.jpg)
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Each Milwaukee-Eight engine produces 10 percent more torque than the engine it replaces in Touring models.
The Milwaukee-Eight 107 accelerates 11 percent quicker 0-60 mph, equal to a two to three bike length improvement, and 11 percent quicker from 60-80 mph in top gear, equal to a one to two bike length improvement, compared to the Twin Cam High Output 103.
The Milwaukee-Eight 114 accelerates 8 percent quicker 0-60 and 12 percent quicker 60-80 than the Twin Cam 110â„¢.
http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2016/08/harley-makes-new-milwaukee-eight-engines-official-with-video/
I'm thinking in reality the new 8 Valve will be a tad faster than the 4 valve, nothing earth shattering. :boozing:
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I just read the CycleWorld article, and the comments thus far, and thought I'd chime in - it doesn't require being a Harley expert, does it? :rolleyes:
First, the CW material reads like something HD wrote with a CW editor injecting a few comments. I know it's hard to say a lot about a bike and engine you can't ride yet, but this was a little too sycophantic for my taste.
Next, one earlier comment read to me as if the new design would require valve adjustments, but my read of the CW article seemed to say it would not. I can't see a new engine of this type in a HD being market-acceptable with a requirement for valve adjustments...
It's interesting that the same engine will be delivered in both oil-cooled and oil/water-cooled versions - few manufacturers will sell enough of a design to justify the variation.
Displacement is carefully selected to be greater than that of current Victory and Indian models - continuing a tradition of the last few iterations from both Milwaukee and Minneapolis.
Calling it the Milwaukee Eight is (I think) a misfire. Certainly, the eight-valve design and the resulting changes throughout the engine are worthy of note, but in Ammurica we always think first of cylinders, not valves. I think this may have started with the 'six-shooter'; it's certainly embedded in the psyche. :laugh:
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Milwaukee Eight or Quattrovalvole
Detroit big block iron or Italian exotica. :boozing:
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Interesting, but a Harley (other than the VRod/Street) with VALVE ADJUSTMENTS? Hmmmm...
An HD buddy of mine who got some sort of notice about this said it's going to be a hydro.. This info not vetted at all.
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Hope they didn't get pointers from Guzzi.
:thumb: HaHaHa....
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yeah, an 8v hydro ain't gonna be happy getting started four times a year..
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All of this for horsepower and torque that's hardly ever used. :grin: :grin: :grin: I want to have it in case I need it. :shocked: :shocked: :shocked:
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Where have you been Nick ? :laugh:
Dusty
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Where have you been Nick ? :laugh:
Dusty
Sorry for the duplicate......I just removed it :wink:
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An HD buddy of mine who got some sort of notice about this said it's going to be a hydro.. This info not vetted at all.
No no, it's vetted/confirmed as of the info release yesterday, it's hydro and that made more sense.
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Each Milwaukee-Eight engine produces 10 percent more torque than the engine it replaces in Touring models.
The Milwaukee-Eight 107 accelerates 11 percent quicker 0-60 mph, equal to a two to three bike length improvement, and 11 percent quicker from 60-80 mph in top gear, equal to a one to two bike length improvement, compared to the Twin Cam High Output 103.
The Milwaukee-Eight 114 accelerates 8 percent quicker 0-60 and 12 percent quicker 60-80 than the Twin Cam 110™.
http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2016/08/harley-makes-new-milwaukee-eight-engines-official-with-video/
I'm thinking in reality the new 8 Valve will be a tad faster than the 4 valve, nothing earth shattering. :boozing:
Who was suggesting it would be earth shattering?
I read my earlier numbers comparatively and this snippet the same way, as a typical Harley evolutionary improvement not a revolutionary one. But I do like some of their design choices and improvements over the TC motors.
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OK, 8 valves, but what about the RPMs? if it doesn't rev, then you're talking marginal power differences vs the standard bike. Perhaps better emissions and gas mileage, smoother, stronger torque?
When does the VTEC kick in? :violent1:
A 4 valve head uses smaller lighter valves with less lift and duration and can allow a combustion chamber shaped more for a fast burn than a two valve head..
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But will they get to keep their lumpy idle? lol
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The Milwaukee Eight?
does it beat these guys?
(http://www.ep.tc/0-aug09-2/mail10.jpg)
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This is misleading -> The 2017 Ultra Classic will have a Milwaukee-Eightâ„¢ 107ci with 111.4 ft-lb Engine Torque.
That number is before all the emission crap is installed. :boozing:
I'm not sure what you're going on about, but I'm finally at a desktop and have access to my data.
Here's the 2017 CARB data I posted earlier:
XG500: 36.3/7,250
XG750: 59/8,000
XL883: 53.6/6,000
XL1200: 67/5,500
V-Rod: 122-127/8,250
Twin-Cam 103: 80.5/4,000
Twin-Cam 110: 87.2/4,000
Milwaukee-Eight 107: 93/5,020
Milwaukee-Eight 114: 101/5,020
Here's some comparative RWHP data I've saved over the years from various sources but largely MCN:
Street 750 - 53-58
883 EVO (Rubbermount Carb) - 40-41 hp
883 EVO (Rubbermount EFI) - 48-50 hp
1200 EVO (Solidmount ) - 52-56 hp
1200 EVO (Rubbermount) - 57-60 hp
1200 EVO XR/XRX (Rubbermount) - 79-80 hp
1200 EVO CP (Rubbermount) - 69 hp
1340 EVO BT - 48-52 hp
TC88 - 60-63 hp
TC96 - 66-68 hp
TC103B - 71 hp
TC103 - 75-78 hp
TC110B - 80-82 hp
TC110 - 82-86 hp
Let's compare:
XL883: 53.6 vs 48-50
XL1200: 67 vs. 60 or 69 (if that's not a CP, and I don't think it is, it does seem a little high)
V-Rod: 122-127 vs (I just looked this one up) 103-107 (so yeah this one's a bit high)
Twin-Cam 103: 80.5 vs 71-78
Twin-Cam 110: 87.2 vs 80-86
So these two remain to be seen, but for frick's sake, if the TC103 is putting out mid to high 70s, then I'm thinking the M8 107 should be able to make mid to high 80s with a 4V head and larger intake/throttle body. Similarly I don't see the 114 being a stretch if it's got rwhp in the 90s.
So these figures seem to be crank, and a few hp high, but quite "likely":
Milwaukee-Eight 107: 93
Milwaukee-Eight 114: 101
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The Sportster is a pretty different beast, a unitized, four camshaft, EVO. It never received any of the Twin Cam upgrades unless you consider they essentially both got feedback EFI and increased cooling capacities in 07.
I'd think it would be easier to '8 valve' the Sporty, given the current cam layout.
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I'm not sure what you're going on about, but I'm finally at a desktop and have access to my data.
Here's the 2017 CARB data I posted earlier:
XG500: 36.3/7,250
XG750: 59/8,000
XL883: 53.6/6,000
XL1200: 67/5,500
V-Rod: 122-127/8,250
Twin-Cam 103: 80.5/4,000
Twin-Cam 110: 87.2/4,000
Milwaukee-Eight 107: 93/5,020
Milwaukee-Eight 114: 101/5,020
Here's some comparative RWHP data I've saved over the years from various sources but largely MCN:
Street 750 - 53-58
883 EVO (Rubbermount Carb) - 40-41 hp
883 EVO (Rubbermount EFI) - 48-50 hp
1200 EVO (Solidmount ) - 52-56 hp
1200 EVO (Rubbermount) - 57-60 hp
1200 EVO XR/XRX (Rubbermount) - 79-80 hp
1200 EVO CP (Rubbermount) - 69 hp
1340 EVO BT - 48-52 hp
TC88 - 60-63 hp
TC96 - 66-68 hp
TC103B - 71 hp
TC103 - 75-78 hp
TC110B - 80-82 hp
TC110 - 82-86 hp
Let's compare:
XL883: 53.6 vs 48-50
XL1200: 67 vs. 60 or 69 (if that's not a CP, and I don't think it is, it does seem a little high)
V-Rod: 122-127 vs (I just looked this one up) 103-107 (so yeah this one's a bit high)
Twin-Cam 103: 80.5 vs 71-78
Twin-Cam 110: 87.2 vs 80-86
So these two remain to be seen, but for frick's sake, if the TC103 is putting out mid to high 70s, then I'm thinking the M8 107 should be able to make mid to high 80s with a 4V head and larger intake/throttle body. Similarly I don't see the 114 being a stretch if it's got rwhp in the 90s.
So these figures seem to be crank, and a few hp high, but quite "likely":
Milwaukee-Eight 107: 93
Milwaukee-Eight 114: 101
Where is YOUR link?
Those numbers are NOT with Emissions Equipment installed. Kind of misleading... :boozing:
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Big news! Harley Davidson produces an 8 valve engine! Like others did 100 years ago.
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Of course it has hydraulic valve operation, they would have to have been smoking crack to think they could go mechanical at this point in their operations.
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I love big bikes. HD's included but it seems the best buy for horsepower to weight ratio would be the 750 bikes.
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I love big bikes. HD's included but it seems the best buy for horsepower to weight ratio would be the 750 bikes.
750s used to be big bikes. Now they are beginner bikes.
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Even the 883 Sporty's.
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750s used to be big bikes. Now they are beginner bikes.
I wouldn't call 600-750 sport bikes anything close to a beginner bike...
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Where is YOUR link?
Those numbers are NOT with Emissions Equipment installed. Kind of misleading... :boozing:
Wtf are you talking about? What link? My rwhp numbers are from a spreadsheet kept for years. I compile data from various sources (which I already named) on rwhp.
I didn't dig into the CARB source data. I don't know if it's claimed crankshaft hp or rwhp without emissions equipment. I really don't give a crap cause I'm not publishing a scientific journal on the subject.
I simply noted how close most of the numbers were to rwhp numbers (with emissions equipment) that I've noted over the years so figured the comparative data might be of interest to some.
It's not "misleading" UNLESS some moron reads only half the post and draws his own wrong conclusions.
But one ironic point, if those are really RWHP figures without emissions equipment then they're MORE realistic than most data sets since that's exactly what most owners dump first.
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They are all gonna blow up anyway :shocked:
Dusty
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:boozing:
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But will they get to keep their lumpy idle? lol
I read somewhere that the answer is yes, deliberately. Something to do with counter-balancer designs. First go-around was deemed to be too smooth, so they made it smaller.
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I read somewhere that the answer is yes, deliberately. Something to do with counter-balancer designs. First go-around was deemed to be too smooth, so they made it smaller.
Well, no that's not the idle. The lumpy idle is a result of 3 possible factors:
1. More aggressive cams (least likely, but happens)
2. The staggered ignition timing on a Harley because of the 45 degree angle and the rear cylinder leading the front by 45 degrees, they fire at irregular intervals to each other. One description reads:
Front Bang, rotate 315 degrees - Rear Bang, rotate 405 degrees - Front Bang, rotate 315 degrees, - Rear Bang, etc.
http://www.wildwestcycle.com/f_firing.html
3. Idle speed - many "faithful" exaggerate the sound by purposely lowering idle speed.
As usual the engineers listened and idle speed is spec'd lower on the M8 motor - 850 vs. other previous models usually in the 1000-1200 range.
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Yep , and there is a joke in there regarding HD riders and idle speed , but being a gentleman precludes telling it :evil:
Dusty
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Yep , and there is a joke in there regarding HD riders and idle speed , but being a gentleman precludes telling it :evil:
Dusty
Gentleman? I suspect it's more that you want to set an example :grin:
Besides, by saying it this way you get to let everyone write their own in their heads! :bow:
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Well, no that's not the idle. The lumpy idle is a result of 3 possible factors:
1. More aggressive cams (least likely, but happens)
2. The staggered ignition timing on a Harley because of the 45 degree angle and the rear cylinder leading the front by 45 degrees, they fire at irregular intervals to each other. One description reads:
3. Idle speed - many "faithful" exaggerate the sound by purposely lowering idle speed.
As usual the engineers listened and idle speed is spec'd lower on the M8 motor - 850 vs. other previous models usually in the 1000-1200 range.
The single pin crank gives a lumpier idle, a better exhaust note, a pulsing feel of power, and 'character' to the motor. V-twin cruiser buyers don't want a quite, smooth motor, they want that pulsing feel of torque between their legs and an exhaust note that is deep and roaring.
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When it comes to engine design there is not much new under the sun. Folks don't need to copy another companies motor, just look in the engineering manuals from college.
Now if they put this motor in the Roadster..........
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The single pin crank gives a lumpier idle,
That would be integral to the design factors that caused my aforementioned description of the staggered ignition timing.
Or stated another way... Yes. :boozing:
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That would be integral to the design factors that caused my aforementioned description of the staggered ignition timing.
Or stated another way... Yes. :boozing:
I sense some drooling coming from your mouth. :boozing:
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Well, no that's not the idle. The lumpy idle is a result of 3 possible factors:
Lumpy idle, vibration, all the same to me.
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Lumpy idle, vibration, all the same to me.
Not really, I mean everything I've ever ridden vibrates in some way. Some are high frequency, some low, some are rubbermounted and hide it at speed or load, some cancel it very well with a counterbalance shaft.
Idle speed may exaggerate vibration by slowing speed/frequency of the curve, but that's really different than a lumpy idle which is the result of ignition timing.
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I ended up getting stress cracks on my CB750. So much for a smooth running engine. Like Kev M says engines have vibrations.
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California Dreamin' -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-aK6JnyFmk
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Lumpy idle, vibration, all the same to me.
Not really, ...
I must say that I'm very impressed that you know so much about me.
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Lumpy was idle :huh:
Dusty
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I must say that I'm very impressed that you know so much about me.
Not really in this case simply means you are simply sloppy in your usage/understanding. I.E. you are mistaken in your impressions or understanding of what a lumpy idle ACTUALLY IS and what causes it.
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Lumpy idles can be a result of engine firing order, camshaft timing, over advanced ignition timing and a bunch of other factors...The Harley idle cadence that you hear is primarily from the firing order on older carburetor bikes.. At the Curtiss Museum bike show attended my me , Kev and a few other here there was Dick Harris's 1970 Triumph Bonneville with the crank modified to 76 degree phasing instead of 360. This greatly reduces the typical 360 degree twin vibration at higher speeds.....At idle is sounded like a Guzzi , Ducati or even a Harley....And sorta like a V-8 hot rod...
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The late great Duncan Campbell from Joplin MO built some pretty nasty Brit powered drag and street bikes . Mostly Norton and Triumphs , and a couple of hybrids employing Norton or Moldex crankshafts in Triumph cases . I had the pleasure of riding a couple of examples of his work in the 1980's , and my favorite was a monster 920 CC Triumph that employed a special Moldex crank with the pins situated 77 degrees apart that sounded like a creation from hell . Talk about a lumpy sounding idle , although the actual level of vibration was less than a standard short rod Triumph . This beast was a street bike and looked like a basic Triumph from the late 60's with the exception of a trick swingarm and a large front disc brake . Damn , I miss Duncan , wonder what happened to his collection of stuff .
Dusty
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Not really in this case simply means you are simply sloppy in your usage/understanding. I.E. you are mistaken in your impressions or understanding of what a lumpy idle ACTUALLY IS and what causes it.
I await your 5-page dissertation with ... nah, not really.
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Lumpy idle :boozing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEbDlNeMtLM
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Thanks for posting. The other engines that are linked are fun to watch too. :thumb:
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I've gotta give Harley credit for marketing the way it should be done.
They introduce their new engine and bikes to the world just last Tuesday and get a lot of press publicity about it. By week's end these new products were already shipped and sitting in the dealers' showrooms! Today, several of our Guzzi Gang went to look at them in the real. Several have already been sold and are out on the road.
Strike while the iron is hot. Good planning.
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I've gotta give Harley credit for marketing the way it should be done.
They introduce their new engine and bikes to the world just last Tuesday and get a lot of press publicity about it. By week's end these new products were already shipped and sitting in the dealers' showrooms! Today, several of our Guzzi Gang went to look at them in the real. Several have already been sold and are out on the road.
Strike while the iron is hot. Good planning.
Yet they said nothing about the 8 valve @ Sturgis, I asked a couple of reps and they both said they never heard of Harley working on a 8 valve motor. Less than two weeks later and we all hear this. Imagine if you purchased a new 2016 @ Strugis only to find it's already obsolete by the time you bring it home. :evil:
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Lumpy was idle :huh:
Dusty
I thought Lumpy was the eight dwarf...
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(http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/ac1394dbdcca6a36cbf486633b129cd813095ac3/r=x404&c=534x401/local/-/media/USATODAY/GenericImages/2013/04/15/lumpy-cleaned-up-4_3.jpg)
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Yet they said nothing about the 8 valve @ Sturgis, I asked a couple of reps and they both said they never heard of Harley working on a 8 valve motor. Less than two weeks later and we all hear this. Imagine if you purchased a new 2016 @ Strugis only to find it's already obsolete by the time you bring it home. :evil:
I am amazed at how well they can keep something so big so secret for so long. Even the dealers didn't know much at all about the new products.
And, on the obsolete part, nah. That's the thing. The H-D's never become obsolete. They are like a pair of Levi's jeans. The Twin Cams are still up to snuff. Even my 40-year-old H-D looks to most people like a current Dyna.
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Bike%20Pics/IMG_1777.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Bike%20Pics/IMG_1777.jpg.html)
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Speaking of credible sources , mine tells me that the V Rod is history .
Creditable?? Sorry Chuckie :laugh:
Dusty
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Too bad. The Street Rod is/was a good bike but it didn't appeal at all to the HD crowd. That bike motivated me to buy a Buell ST3 Thunderbolt.
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Speaking of credible sources , mine tells me that the V Rod is history .
Creditable?? Sorry Chuckie :laugh:
Dusty
If only Harley made a V Rod Sport Touring bike, but no, just that horrible cruiser. Test drove one back when they first came out. I thought it was wimpy. Of course back in them day's, I was riding a Hayabusa.
(http://www.users.qwest.net/~ghakala/old%20bike.GIF)
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Most other bikes compared to a Hayabusa would be wimpy.
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Most other bikes compared to a Hayabusa would be wimpy.
Yes, but, no the 1st generation FJR 1300 pulled like a Hayabusa up to around 130 mph. She would only go a little over 1-5-0. :boozing:
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Hell , up to about 189 MPH even an F4 launched from a carrier would probably feel wimpy compared to a Busa :shocked:
Dusty
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It's the torque not the horsepower. :wink:
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It's the torque not the horsepower. :wink:
No , it's the humidity :huh:
Dusty
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No it's the temperature.
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Speaking of credible sources , mine tells me that the V Rod is history .
Creditable?? Sorry Chuckie :laugh:
Dusty
I've heard the same from similar.
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Yes, but, no the 1st generation FJR 1300 pulled like a Hayabusa up to around 130 mph. She would only go a little over 1-5-0. :boozing:
Yet neither hold even the first iota of my interest. :boozing:
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Potato potato potato :shocked: :evil:
Dusty
I saw your high school photo:
(http://www.thethirdcity.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/eddiehaskelle.jpg)
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If only Harley made a V Rod Sport Touring bike, but no, just that horrible cruiser. Test drove one back when they first came out. I thought it was wimpy. Of course back in them day's, I was riding a Hayabusa.
(http://www.users.qwest.net/~ghakala/old%20bike.GIF)
Wow, you look like a real Jag in the picture! Glad we know you now for the cool cat you are!
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Yes, but, no the 1st generation FJR 1300 pulled like a Hayabusa up to around 130 mph. She would only go a little over 1-5-0. :boozing:
no it didn't. There's real fast and then there is Hayabusa fast. :evil:
Bottomline, nothing I've ridden is faster than my right wrist. Sometimes even my V11 Sport is fast. :bow:
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It's the torque not the horsepower. :wink:
when you're pulling 12k, that's hors-a-power (as Mr Rossi would say)
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:grin:
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Mt Rossi isn't a Harley fan.
he likes something with some horse-a-power.
(as I heard him at Indy Moto GP 2008)
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Hell , up to about 189 MPH even an F4 launched from a carrier would probably feel wimpy compared to a Busa :shocked:
Dusty
I got to talk to the Navy guy that tested and signed off F-4 for the Navy after they were built. Just about everything is wimpy compared to the F-4. Down on the deck she would go super sonic easier than a Griso hitting the ton and with about the same feedback. It's a beast.
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I got to talk to the Navy guy that tested and signed off F-4 for the Navy after they were built. Just about everything is wimpy compared to the F-4. Down on the deck she would go super sonic easier than a Griso hitting the ton and with about the same feedback. It's a beast.
Yeah , but their 0 to 100 times weren't all that great . LOL . We have a member that flew Phantoms of off carriers in SE Asia late 60's . He still flies , and is still impressed with the F4 .
Dusty
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With full after burners kicked in, An F4 is described as a "fast bus" in the air.
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Dyno run 2017 Harley-Davidson Milwaukee Eight 8 107" -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj5PBUHfQfg
Max power 80.87
Max torque 98.58
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Dyno run 2017 Harley-Davidson Milwaukee Eight 8 107" -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj5PBUHfQfg
Max power 80.87
Max torque 98.58
Well, that's a couple more hp loss than I was predicting, but it's only the first report, let's see some more.
It does still match the TC110B, which isn't too bad, but I'd have expected more freon a 4V head.
That said, bet a Stage I puts it at the mid-to-high 80's I was guessing.
EDIT-hmmm, so the source is a company who is trying to sell you their products that instead performance, so they would benefit from a lower initial dyno run. I'll have to compare some of their charts on other motors and vet them against known unbiased sources to see if there are any patterns of reliable or anti-hero data. Will report back.
EDIT-EDIT - ok, so I compared their dyno runs to my data and they seem like a pretty reliable source, though I found a couple of variations which could be individual bike or dyno run.
Here's some comparative data (MCN or other source vs. Fuel Moto):
TC96 - 66-68 hp vs. 65-69 hp
TC103B - 71 hp vs. 71 hp
*TC103 - 75-78 hp vs. 76-77 hp (TCTC)
TC110B - 80-82 hp vs. NO DATA
TC110 - 82-86 hp vs. 87-89 hp
* Not sure if my data was the Twin Cooled/Twin Cam, but numbers suggest it.
Which makes me wonder again about the CARB data, was one of those numbers for a Twin-Cooled M8? I think they said they were debuting one, but maybe it was only in the larger displacement.
Interesting.
And so funny that I'd still be happy with an EVO.
Reinstalled completely stock exhaust on my XLr yesterday because after about 12+ years of use on 2 bikes one of my modified mufflers cracked and started leaking and I'm not in the mood to do all that work again for a few hp.
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The test on the new Harley above is on a Dynojet.....They are inertia dynamometers and 5-10 percent optimistic compared Superflow or Mustang eddy current or load chassis dynos. I've had my race bike on both and there is a difference. The manufacturers use load dynos and usually quote crankshaft power and of course dynos are all slightly different....But the rear wheel power as measured on a Dyno Jet should be close to the manufacturer crankshaft power claims...
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The test on the new Harley above is on a Dynojet.....They are inertia dynamometers and 5-10 percent optimistic compared Superflow or Mustang eddy current or load chassis dynos. I've had my race bike on both and there is a difference. The manufacturers use load dynos and usually quote crankshaft power and of course dynos are all slightly different....But the rear wheel power as measured on a Dyno Jet should be close to the manufacturer crankshaft power claims...
Most likely real RWHP 70 to 75.
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Most likely real RWHP 70 to 75.
Which only likely matters if EVERYONE else in the world reporting this crap is NOT using a DynoJet (MCN, CW, Motorcyclist, etc. etc. etc.).
Of course if they ARE, then the comparative figures aren't 70-75 if you want to talk apples-to-apples.
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(http://www.hdforums.com/forum/attachments/the-dyno-room/483084d1472262242-milwaukee-8-testing-2017_107_oc_5th_6th.jpg)
The dyno graph shows the ECM reprogrammed to remove just the VSS limiter, no other changes. No need to unplug a VSS to play games, just reprogram it out. So we have a run from yesterday in 5th gear with vss limiter in place, runs from today in 5th gear and 6th gear with limiter removed. As you can clearly see the MPH is higher before power cut occurs.
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With full after burners kicked in, An F4 is described as a "fast bus" in the air.
This guy described it like a Mack Truck.
A kid that tried out for a seat in the Air Guard in Duluth (he was a graduate of Top Gun and a natural pilot) took on the base commander in a mock dog fight. They were transitioning from RF-4's to F-16 at the time. The commander took the F-16 and gave the kid the F-4 (and according to my co-worker - ex-air force engine tech, he had not flown an F-4 before). The Kid cleaned the commanders clock with the F-4.
Classic case of the ride being more capable than the rider - for the commander. :grin:
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I don't get why 4 valve head is needed on a low revving long stroke pushrod engine. Perhaps if the valve timing is staggered between the valves this could create scavenging and flow? Emissions?
The numbers don't seem to bear out the expense. It certainly can't smooth out the torque delivery much.
I'll bet it's an EPA/emission ploy.
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I don't get why 4 valve head is needed on a low revving long stroke pushrod engine. Perhaps if the valve timing is staggered between the valves this could create scavenging and flow? Emissions?
The numbers don't seem to bear out the expense. It certainly can't smooth out the torque delivery much.
I'll bet it's an EPA/emission ploy.
I think you may be right.
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I don't get why 4 valve head is needed on a low revving long stroke pushrod engine. Perhaps if the valve timing is staggered between the valves this could create scavenging and flow? Emissions?
The numbers don't seem to bear out the expense. It certainly can't smooth out the torque delivery much.
I'll bet it's an EPA/emission ploy.
Nothing wrong with being able to maintain power/performance while meeting more stringent demands for limiting emissions and noise - just plain good engineering.
Now, if we could just get the electro-magnetically fired valves and eliminate cams altogether! :wink:
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Four valve isn't necessary for emissions ...The current Chevy LS V-8's are two valve push rod engines and make more HP per cubic inch than the Harley and must meet car emission standards that I believe are more strict than bike standards...Do the new Harleys have a catalytic convertor? If not then perhaps the four valve helps in this situation....Or maybe the toque curve as mentioned... Or just keeping up with the competition...
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The liquid cooling certainly helps in the emissions control depart. IIRC
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I wouldn't use an automotive engine as comparison, not only because of the water cooling (which is a major factor with heat management, but a car already has an advantage with heat management with regards to the operator/passengers) but also because of so much more room and volume for emissions equipment. It's practically night and day.
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Okay if the liquid cooling of the engine is only for tighter tolerances on the engine build. Wouldn't a benefit be lower emissions? or is that wrong thinking? Granted may not be main reason for the liquid cooling but lower emissions would be a side benefit.
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Water cooling regulates cylinder head temp to a narrower range , making it easier to control emissions . The 8 valve engine should help in this regard also .
Dusty
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Yeah but is it an apple or an orange......uh..... day or night. :grin:
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Water cooling regulates cylinder head temp to a narrower range , making it easier to control emissions . The 8 valve engine should help in this regard also .
Dusty
This - the better control of combustion chamber temperatures means better control of the entire combustion process.
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So a more complete burn of the fuel and less hydrocarbons in the exhaust. More efficient engine with less emissions. Main goal is efficiency with side benefit of less emissions. May not be day or night but in the same 24 hour cycle. :shocked:
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I wouldn't use an automotive engine as comparison, not only because of the water cooling (which is a major factor with heat management, but a car already has an advantage with heat management with regards to the operator/passengers) but also because of so much more room and volume for emissions equipment. It's practically night and day.
A car/truck engine operates in a densely packed situation with A/C compressor, power steering pump, and all sorts of stuff bikes don't have.
Here's the current EPA emission standards...Not only are bikes allowed much more emissions, they are tests for less so to speak...
https://www.epa.gov/emission-standards-reference-guide/light-duty-vehicles-and-trucks-emission-standards (https://www.epa.gov/emission-standards-reference-guide/light-duty-vehicles-and-trucks-emission-standards)
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A car/truck engine operates in a densely packed situation with A/C compressor, power steering pump, and all sorts of stuff bikes don't have.
Here's the current EPA emission standards...Not only are bikes allowed much more emissions, they are tests for less so to speak...
https://www.epa.gov/emission-standards-reference-guide/light-duty-vehicles-and-trucks-emission-standards (https://www.epa.gov/emission-standards-reference-guide/light-duty-vehicles-and-trucks-emission-standards)
Meh, that densely packed environment means nothing thanks to the large volume radiator, water pump, thermostat(s), and significant volume of cooling passages which mean a much more stable temperature range which is the first thing necessary to control combustion conditions.
EPA standards aren't the only things out there, EU emissions standards are getting tighter and tighter.
But even US standards have gotten right enough that additional strategies are necessary to stay compliant and competitive.
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Meh, that densely packed environment means nothing thanks to the large volume radiator, water pump, thermostat(s), and significant volume of cooling passages which mean a much more stable temperature range which is the first thing necessary to control combustion conditions.
Both my car and my liquid-cooled motorcycle can display oil temperature, digitally. If one believes the displayed numbers, the car runs through a wider range of oil temperatures than does the motorcycle, in more or less equivalent conditions of dense slow-moving urban traffic and highway speeds, in very similar ambient temperatures, around 30C. They both have boxer engines and are of the same vintage. I can't hear the (twin) cooling fans in the car so I can't compare the rates at which they cycle on and off.
This is not a concern to me, just an observation of apples and oranges. It's how I amuse myself when stuck in rush-hour traffic.
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The HD guys are beginning to call this engine "the Frog Head" :laugh: Also , my source tells me that at some time in the near future HD will no longer warranty modified bikes . Really can't blame them , as surely they are going to lose money not being able to sell tuners and non-compliant exhaust systems . This may get interesting .
Dusty
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Will the whole stage system still be viable under the tighter EPA regulations?
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Good visuals and explanation of new 8 valve.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAsWcrj_Y5c
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The HD guys are beginning to call this engine "the Frog Head" :laugh: Also , my source tells me that at some time in the near future HD will no longer warranty modified bikes . Really can't blame them , as surely they are going to lose money not being able to sell tuners and non-compliant exhaust systems . This may get interesting .
Dusty
I would agree unless they had those "Screaming Eagle" parts on them.
As discussed the other thread.
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I would agree unless they had those "Screaming Eagle" parts on them.
As discussed the other thread.
Seems it will effect those also .
Dusty
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Shouldn't.
$$$$
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Keep in mind that in 2007 when they introduced the feedback injection motors across the entire line they ALSO quietly made a change to some of their Screaming Eagle accessory parts. They came out with sets of 50-state street legal "accessory" mufflers that with no other modifications increased HP and torque (up to something as high as 10-15% depending on the model).
What this meant was they were (still are?) purposely leaving legally available power on the table to sell accessories after the sale. There's no reason they can't continue to do THAT.
Though if this situation focuses enough light on that there could be some legitimate customer backlash.
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Both my car and my liquid-cooled motorcycle can display oil temperature, digitally. If one believes the displayed numbers, the car runs through a wider range of oil temperatures than does the motorcycle, in more or less equivalent conditions of dense slow-moving urban traffic and highway speeds, in very similar ambient temperatures, around 30C. They both have boxer engines and are of the same vintage. I can't hear the (twin) cooling fans in the car so I can't compare the rates at which they cycle on and off.
This is not a concern to me, just an observation of apples and oranges. It's how I amuse myself when stuck in rush-hour traffic.
Some do vary quite a bit, some not very much. Many but all new vehicles have the engine info gauges controlled by the ECU to display" normal "readings unless something is really out of specification.. Engines with electric cooling fans can see a 20 degree temperature swing depending driving conditions as the fans switch on an off.
If you have an accurate oil pressure gauge in a car/truck or bike , running on the highway at 70 mph for and hour will cause the oil pressure to be lower at idle than being in slow moving traffic...This tells me high speed heats up the oil more than slow speed...You may also notice the water temp being higher in slow traffic than high speed, just the opposite....With an accurate water temp gauge you may also see slight variations in temperature as the thermostat cycles partly open to partly closed.
You can observe on bikes with dry sumps and side mount oil tanks, older bikes....High speed will make the oil tank very warm to the touch...slow speed riding does not heat up the oil , but in slow traffic the an air cooled non fan assisted engine upper end will get hot. Pulling a long grade at higher speeds on old Brit bikes, the engine might sound nosier as it heats up when working hard...
If you listen,look and feel, the engine has a lot to say .....However on new stuff it's been muffled ,less is better :grin:
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Some do vary quite a bit, some not very much. Many but all new vehicles have the engine info gauges controlled by the ECU to display" normal "readings unless something is really out of specification.. Engines with electric cooling fans can see a 20 degree temperature swing depending driving conditions as the fans switch on an off.
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If you listen,look and feel, the engine has a lot to say .....However on new stuff it's been muffled ,less is better :grin:
Both the bike and the car have electric fans (one on the bike, two on the car), and both just display oil temps in degrees C, with no indication of what is 'normal'. I suppose both also have idiot lights that will indicate something is amiss, probably after it's too late :grin:
I hear the bike fan cycle on and off all the time, in heavy traffic. The displayed oil temp varies by maybe 5C max in either direction.
As I said, it's just idle curiousity to me; I've not had a vehicle overheat for many years, even air/oil-cooled bikes. Last one was due to a blown rad on a Honda Accord, which was made obvious by the giant white cloud behind me, no idiot light req'd. When I replaced it I discovered that it, along with the hoses, had been nicely gnawed by a porcupine. Up here there are areas where people park their vehicles in little wire-fenced compounds for just that reason. I was camping and didn't have that luxury.
And yes, I certainly don't mind the muffled bit. A nice tick from the valves at idle on a bike is all I really need to hear. Both the Guzzi and the Beemer are audible and somewhat reassuring. I'd probably worry if I stopped hearing it :grin: :grin:
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Both the bike and the car have electric fans (one on the bike, two on the car), and both just display oil temps in degrees C, with no indication of what is 'normal'. I suppose both also have idiot lights that will indicate something is amiss, probably after it's too late :grin:
I wired an idiot light into the dash of my race car - it was bright red, about 2.5 inches across, and had the words "NEW ENGINE' on the face. :evil:
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I wired an idiot light into the dash of my race car - it was bright red, about 2.5 inches across, and had the words "NEW ENGINE' on the face. :evil:
Was that to warn you that the engine was new or that it needed replacing? :laugh: :laugh:
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They has 3 of them at the Harley store. I didn't see a radiator on these bikes. All three were baggers with the narrow front wheel.
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They has 3 of them at the Harley store. I didn't see a radiator on these bikes. All three were baggers with the narrow front wheel.
They're not all twin cooled.