Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Toecutter on July 26, 2016, 06:10:26 PM
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So, swapped the wife's caps this evening, haven't fired it up yet.
Noticed however that there is NO way the "cap to plug" rubber boot is gonna fit in the plug well... So I left them off. Now, without that boot, the caps tend to "wiggle"... Anyone foresee any issues?
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Just swapped mine a few days ago with the units suggested by MI from that recent thread. 2016 V7II.
The new cap-to-plug rubber fits down in the plug well with pretty much a perfect slip fit. But I wondered the same thing as I was putting it all together. I had to give the caps a good push to get them seated on the plug.
I'd think those boots help support the cap from wiggling around from vibrations. Are your rubbers just too tight, oversized for the plug wells?
Steve.
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Even off the plug, they have a larger diameter than the plug well... Cap is the NGK XB05F.
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Yup. Just went out and retried. Those boots are NOT fitting in the wells. Hell, if I turn 'em upside down, the work really well as corks for the plug wells. :thumb:
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Strange. These were the ones I bought from my local shop, the same ones mentioned at the MI link-
http://www.motointernational.com/service/tech-update-all-single-throttle-body-moto-guzzi-v7-models (http://www.motointernational.com/service/tech-update-all-single-throttle-body-moto-guzzi-v7-models)
Went to the garage just now and verified it off the boxes, they are the same ones-
NGK plugs- CPR8EA-9 Left the gap as they came, just snug on a .88mm feeler gauge.
NGK spark plug covers- XB05F
It's one of two things, I guess. Guzzi didn't cast/drill/grind the hole big enough, or NGK put a bit too much rubber on that particular run of boots. I'd blame Guzzi before blaming NGK. If there was just a safe way to grind or hone those spark plug wells without getting grindings in through the spark plug hole...
If you bought the boots locally, could you go back and try another boot?
Off topic a bit, but for my factory wire boots, I found when I unscrewed the boot from the wire, a crimped fitting stayed on the wire and it unscrewed from the boot. I had to snip off that crimped fitting from the spark plug wire to install the screw-on NGK boot. That crimped fitting was not unscrewing from the end of the wire at all. And as far as arcing of the boot to the spark plug, fortunately I viewed none on the factory plugs. That said, the factory plugs and boots are in the bottom of the workshop trash can. Anyway, that's the first time I've ever installed a plug boot. Strange how that new boot thread managed to insert/twist itself into the right spot up the core of the wire. Working just fine.
Steve.
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Warning. If those rubber boots are a snug fit in the well, they can easily get stuck in the well when you later try to remove the cap, and they decide they would rather be stuck in a well than stuck on the cap where they belong.
Then you have a tight rubber circle deep down a well. Which blocks your attempt to push a spark plug wrench down said well to remove spark plug. Which leads to 45 minutes of prying and cursing.
Don't ask me how I know this.
I'd leave them off, or glue them to the cap.
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Can you use the old ones?
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There are no old ones... just those expensive and shitty NGK rubber caps (cap and boots all in one). All four plugs, from both my and my wife's bikes show signs of arcing with those things.
Right now, I'm riding without the bottom boots. Tried all four plug wells, and all four plug boots in each... right across the board, consistently "no". :boozing:
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I left my rubbers off. :kiss: What is the recommended gap for these plugs? I set mine to the what the manual recommended.
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I second this.
The plugs were all gapped between .86 and .89 right out of the box. I left them as is, and they run great.
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The NGK product sheet for spark plug caps is very informative. It can be found at
http://www.ngkpartfinder.co.uk/files/NGK_Spark_Plug_Covers.pdf
In addition to the XB05F cap, NGK also makes an XD05F cap. The only difference is the plug thread diameter dimension: the XB05F is intended for 14 mm thread plugs and the XD05F for 10-12 mm thread plugs. The CPR8EA-9 plug has 10 mm threads, which suggests that XD05F is the proper cap. Perhaps somewhere along the line in this forum, a typo was introduced and the recommended replacement cap is supposed to be the XD05F, which might have a smaller overall diameter and would fit better in the plug well. It would be nice if someone here would try an XD05F cap and report back whether it's a better fit than the XB05F.
Also, in addition to XB05F and XD05F caps, NGK also makes XB05FP and XD05FP caps. The P suffix indicates that the cap is waterproof. Perhaps these are what we're looking for.
Regarding the plug gap, the suffix "-9" on the CPR8EA-9 plug indicates that it comes from the factory with an 0.9-mm gap. Although the MG manuals indicate that the gap should be set to 0.6-0.7 mm, I have found that the 1TB V7 and V7II engines run better with 0.9-mm gaps, so, when I replace the plugs, I leave the gaps as they come from the factory. This wouldn't be the first time that the MG manuals contain incorrect information.
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It was this http://www.motointernational.com/service/tech-update-all-single-throttle-body-moto-guzzi-v7-models that prompted the purchase of the XB05F caps.
Your link has got me wondering now. I have sent an email to NGK Canada to clarify, but my question of "what cap do I use for plug CPR8EA-9, XB05F or XD05F?" Has been met with a plethora of questions regarding the vehicle specs, as opposed to a simple "this size, this cap" answer.
I'll post any results I find.
(edit: found a supplier with 4 of the XD05FP (p for waterproof housing), so will pick them up today)
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Ok.
I have swapped and confirmed, I have not heard from NGK yet, however, I have made the switch.
The proper cap is XD05F, or XD05FP. The boot fits the plug well perfectly, the cap engages with the plug more solidly. It is absolutely the correct plug cap.
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Ok.
I have swapped and confirmed, I have not heard from NGK yet, however, I have made the switch.
The proper cap is XD05F, or XD05FP. The boot fits the plug well perfectly, the cap engages with the plug more solidly. It is absolutely the correct plug cap.
Confirms my speculation. Thanks for posting. I wish you many trouble-free miles with your new, proper, NGK caps.
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There are no old ones... just those expensive and shitty NGK rubber caps (cap and boots all in one). All four plugs, from both my and my wife's bikes show signs of arcing with those things.
Right now, I'm riding without the bottom boots. Tried all four plug wells, and all four plug boots in each... right across the board, consistently "no". :boozing:
Got it. No removable boot. That sux.
An interesting aside -- you mention the factory gap was .034 and .035 (.88 and .89mm). This is roughly what I measured on the BP6ES plugs I just installed in the hydro engine. So that could be the standard 'factory pre-gap' for the current generation of NGK products. I measured about the same (.036 and .040) on BP6ES in an '04 Stone the other day. The owner assured me that they were "factory gapped and therefore didn't need checking." The problem is that while the factory pre-gap is close to correct for the current model year, it's WAY WRONG for the older lumps, which want to see .024 - .028. So please don't make assumptions about the factory gap. Check it. A $2 circular gapper is next to the cash register at every parts counter ever installed in every auto parts store everywhere, so there's no excuse to not have and use one at every opportunity.
Thank you very much!
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So the tech update is incorrect?
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FWIW I also emailed NGK about the same issue a little while back and the response was this:
Thank you for contacting us! You will need plug cap XD05F for the NGK CPR8EA-9.
Best Regards,
Murphy
So I went with the XD05F. I haven't tried them yet but I will soon.
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Okay... so I've managed to install, presumably, the wrong cap? Which was the suggested cap. My XB rather than the XD?
I guess tomorrow I'll try to pull the cap off the plug and see what happens.
Any reason to believe the physical connection between my XB cap and my CPR8EA-9 plug is incorrect? Before installing either onto the bike, I snapped a cap onto a plug to see how well it grabbed the plug, and the fit seemed secure.
Steve.
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I don't understand, the problems? I have recently replaced the oem boots on my 2015 V7 Stone. the spark plug contacts showed evidence of arcing and I now use denso iridium (threaded tips) with the recommended XB05F boots that I purchased off of Ebay, info below. I had not a seconds issue during installation and I feel the plug and boot combo has improved the engine start, cold running and the 3.5-4K stumble some what.
Ebay address. for Boot XB05F I guess the XD05F is the one to use? Oh well. Still using the XB
http://www.ebay.com/itm/400928270601?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
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Could the sparkplugs wells be differenent depending on the year? Mine is a 2013.
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The problem seems to be whether or not the caps fit in the 'spark plug wells', not the fit of the caps on the plugs.
Do the B sized caps have a larger OD than the D sized ones?
AndyB
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The XBo5F fits easily in the plug wells, 2015 V7 Stone? I can pull them on and off the plugs easily, waiting with interest if any one gets the info on diameter of the rubber seals on the XB as compared to the XD or if the Plug Wells are different sizes in the older V7s? Just curious?
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I pulled a cap off a plug this morning. No problems. A nice snug fit of the cap connection to the plug terminal. I popped the cap off the plug, and with the cap just above the plug connection, I could move the cap around inside the plug well freely, maybe a millimeter or so of free space between the cap and the plug. Seems I'm fine.
NGK, CPR8EA-9 plug, XB05F cap. 2016 V7II Stone. I'm done worrying. Time to ride.
Steve.
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Hey - first post :-)
I'm planning on making this fix tonight in the hopes it fixes the power stutter I am experiencing on my 2016 V7 II roughly between 3-4K RPM.
I have the XB05F caps though - everyone still feel it's not a big deal to not use XD05F? Also, I really just cut the cable next to the old caps and screw on the new ones? That easy?
Thanks!
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No No No, don't cut the wires! the caps UNSCREW and screw back on. Be sure to get the cap seals properly installed on the wire and plug side so moisture stays out.
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Well - I'm glad it was too damn cold and windy to do this tonight - I put it off until tomorrow. The idea of cutting the old caps off came from this post, but I guess for my bike that's not the way to go:
https://www.motointernational.com/blog/news-and-events/post/spark-plug-cap-update-for-guzzi-8v-models
Many thanks for applying the brakes.
Dante
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If you want to snip a bit off to get a better bite when you screw the new caps you I guess when you remove the old caps check to see if there will be enough cable and then you can decide how much you want to trim? But just cutting after the cap will use a lot of cable.
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Hey - first post :-)
I'm planning on making this fix tonight in the hopes it fixes the power stutter I am experiencing on my 2016 V7 II roughly between 3-4K RPM.
I have the XB05F caps though - everyone still feel it's not a big deal to not use XD05F? Also, I really just cut the cable next to the old caps and screw on the new ones? That easy?
Thanks!
Welcome aboard!
See my message above from July 26. I had to cut the ends of my wires, no choice in the matter. Working fine from the day I installed the new plugs an caps. 2016 V7II Stone.
Steve.
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Here we are! After 22.000 Km on my V7 (model year 2014) I've started experiencing some misfires, and I'll chamge my spark plug caps.
I' have XD05F, they should be ok, isn' it?
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Here we are! After 22.000 Km on my V7 (model year 2014) I've started experiencing some misfires, and I'll chamge my spark plug caps.
I' have XD05F, they should be ok, isn' it?
Yep, and you'll have to also change the plugs from CPR8EB-9 to CPR8EA-9.
Another thing to consider is that for both plugs, the "-9" indicates that they come pre-gapped at 0.9 mm. Although the Moto Guzzi owner's and service manuals state that the spark gaps should be 0.6-0.7 mm, I have found that 0.9 mm works better, on both my previous '13 V7 Stone and my current '16 V7II Stone.
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Funny - I checked my plug gap during the first service and guess what...they were gapped at 0.9 mm from the factory. Lol
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Funny - I checked my plug gap during the first service and guess what...they were gapped at 0.9 mm from the factory. Lol
It's possible that the manuals haven't been updated since they switched from the different plugs used in the earlier 2-TB models. This wouldn't be the first instance of lagging manual updates.
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Yep, and you'll have to also change the plugs from CPR8EB-9 to CPR8EA-9.
Another thing to consider is that for both plugs, the "-9" indicates that they come pre-gapped at 0.9 mm. Although the Moto Guzzi owner's and service manuals state that the spark gaps should be 0.6-0.7 mm, I have found that 0.9 mm works better, on both my previous '13 V7 Stone and my current '16 V7II Stone.
Hi Yep, thanks for your reply!
I've already changed my "initial" spark plugs with the Denso Iridium Power IU-24, they already have the gap at 0.9 mm and they work fine! They have also a removable terminal shape, so it should be ok with the NGG new spark plug cap :thumb:
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I hereby officially retract my previous post in this thread. I had recognized the snug fit of the rubber cover boot, had one get stuck down the hole, and so I foolishly advised against using the cap.
I now know that's a mistake which cost me a huge amount of grief in a Galveston "frog drowner" rainstorm.
The modern spark plug wire leads directly to the cap and thus will direct rain water into the cap, shorting it out. There is no "loop" in the wire that creates a low point for water drainage as with previous small blocks.
So you really do want the protective boot, even if it's a snug and worrisome fit.
Indeed, I think you *also* need to put silicone sealant goop on the spark plug wire and the screw it back into the cap---that's another layer of defense. Just keep the dang moisture out of that system !!!
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I have some questions for iridium plug users. If you chose these because you want them to last a long time, don't you still have to remove them every time you adjust the valves? Eventually, the metal gaskets will flatten and you'll have to replace them. Are they even available separately? How hard is it to remove a flattened gasket from a spark plug and put on a new one? Thanks, just curious.
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I have some questions for iridium plug users. If you chose these because you want them to last a long time, don't you still have to remove them every time you adjust the valves? Eventually, the metal gaskets will flatten and you'll have to replace them. Are they even available separately? How hard is it to remove a flattened gasket from a spark plug and put on a new one? Thanks, just curious.
Hi Sib, I got the point but I' don't know how to answer...Simply because I use iridium spark plugs just for a performance (and not for long lasting..) purpose, and so I usually replace them every time I adjust the valves....Yes, I'm crazy ;-)
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Hi Sib, I got the point but I' don't know how to answer...Simply because I use iridium spark plugs just for a performance (and not for long lasting..) purpose, and so I usually replace them every time I adjust the valves....Yes, I'm crazy ;-)
You're not as crazy as someone would have been a few years ago. My 2004 Prius uses iridium plugs, and a set of 4 back then cost more than $100. I recently checked the price of the Denso IU24 plugs on Amazon, and they're actually pretty cheap, about $7.50/plug, inexpensive enough to use if you get a performance boost from them.
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Before I replaced the plug caps on my V7II, the plugs were sooty. Having replaced the plug caps with NGK WD05F -R the plugs have been running pretty clean. Were the OEM plug caps misfiring? I didn't detect that while riding. Perhaps a bit of a mystery.
Cheers
Brian C :grin:
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Before I replaced the plug caps on my V7II, the plugs were sooty. Having replaced the plug caps with NGK WD05F -R the plugs have been running pretty clean. Were the OEM plug caps misfiring? I didn't detect that while riding. Perhaps a bit of a mystery.
Cheers
Brian C :grin:
Curious about why you selected the red caps (signified by the "-R" suffix) instead of the black ones. Hotter spark? :grin:
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I'd be tempted to try a little rubber lubricant -castor oil is my favourite. Will make removing them easier too.
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Curious about why you selected the red caps (signified by the "-R" suffix) instead of the black ones. Hotter spark? :grin:
Prefers to hide his light under a bushel? I chose the red caps too - they're prettier than the black, even though they can only be seen when the cover comes off.
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Just updated my V7ii Special with the XD05FP boot and CPR8EA-9. Cheap and readily available...
Not sure about the V7, but on the V7ii, the end of the wire that screws out of the boot has a crimped on, male threaded terminal. I snipped that off, and screwed the new one on. No issue with wire length.
Also no issues with fitment, or the rubber boots. The bike runs great. Left the plug gap at 0.9mm.
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Thanks for the info about the crimp-on end. I'll eventually get around to installing XD05FP caps, but not until the OEM ones start acting up. So far, ~15,500 mi on my '16 Stone, no spark issues at all, but I avoid riding in the rain.
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I wasn't having any issues on mine - only 8000 km on the clock. But heading down to Staunton, Virginia for a 5 day ride in the area (about 3000km), so doing some preventative work. I did the all-metal fuel filter also, although the jury is out on that one. I guess it depends more on where you live, and the gas available there. In any case, it's one less thing to worry about.
And yes, the tank rubber bumper guides were not very tight, so fixed that also.
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I wasn't having any issues on mine - only 8000 km on the clock. But heading down to Staunton, Virginia for a 5 day ride in the area (about 3000km), so doing some preventative work. I did the all-metal fuel filter also, although the jury is out on that one. I guess it depends more on where you live, and the gas available there. In any case, it's one less thing to worry about.
And yes, the tank rubber bumper guides were not very tight, so fixed that also.
My rubber tank holders/guides were also loose, which I fixed with proper tightening and Loctite. I did the all-metal fuel filter on my previous '13 Stone, like you because it would be one less thing to worry about. Back then, there were a few reports of problems with the metal/plastic filters, but I haven't heard of any problems recently. Perhaps there was a batch of defective filters, and the problem has since been solved. I found the all metal filter to be real bitch to get back into the tank, and in the end I could only do it if I left off the zip tie that held the filter body onto the pump. So, I had a new problem to worry about, the filter knocking around in there and maybe working loose of its hoses. However, nothing like that happened until I sold the bike at 12,000 mi.
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Sib. No reason for selecting the red caps other than that was what was available on eBay.
Cheers
Brian :grin:
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using the search function on this issue the consensus opinion appears to be to swap to CPRAEA-9 plugs and XD05FP boots.
I didn't see any suggestions for plug wires to replace the stock ones on the V7'.. Are there any?
Gerry
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Or the CR9EK plugs (factory gaps) with the XD05F caps my V7S seems quite happy with for the last 80,000 km.
Copper core wire is recommended.
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Or the CR9EK plugs (factory gaps) with the XD05F caps my V7S seems quite happy with for the last 80,000 km.
Copper core wire is recommended.
Thanks. Actually i'm looking for a better quality set of wires vs the stock ones.
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NGK Racing have HT cable & caps in a pretty shade of red. Check them out in their Racing section.
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NW
NGK Racing have HT cable & caps in a pretty shade of red. Check them out in their Racing section.
I was up at the shop today and we got ol' red back up and running. New plugs - CPR8EA-9'S, boots - XD05FP & new wires made up at the shop. ECU reflashed with latest Guzzi map for 2015 V7. Unfortunately I lost the guzzitech map but at least the ECU did not need to be replaced and the bike runs. I'll have her back home tomorrow.
Gerry
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Did you ask them to update the map to a crappy factory one? I would be pissed if they did that and I lost the Guzzitech one.
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Jim and I spoke about that when Jerry had his issue while we were in VT.
I don't recon anything can be done except ask Todd for some courtesy regarding Jerry's map. His ECU got wiped out.
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Did you ask them to update the map to a crappy factory one? I would be pissed if they did that and I lost the Guzzitech one.
I just got home from picking up my bike. The latest factory map was loaded which is a HELL of a lot better than the original one.
It was not the dealers fault the ecu got wiped, plus I did not have to replace the whole unit with a new ecu.
KOF and I both had our ECU's re-flashed way before Todd's new map tool was available'
Plus Hamlin had a V9 trucked up to VT for me to ride and the V7 taken back to his shop. I have no reason to be "pissed" about losing the guzzitech map.
Gerry
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Hamlin takes fantastic care of us when needed.
I feel for those who don't have a shop like his.
I don't ride 400 miles for nothing!
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Hamlin takes fantastic care of us when needed.
I feel for those who don't have a shop like his.
I don't ride 400 miles for nothing!
Actually sometimes I do want to ride 400 miles for nothing...but that is a different story...LOL..
Good that you have a good supporting shop!
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KOF and I both had our ECU's re-flashed way before Todd's new map tool was available.
I have no reason to be "pissed" about losing the guzzitech map.
Perhaps you should had backed up the map using Guzzidiag. Not for distributing to others, but only for the situation that you have just encountered.
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Perhaps you should had backed up the map using Guzzidiag. Not for distributing to others, but only for the situation that you have just encountered.
bite me.
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Bumping this old thread with a few questions.
The CPR8EA-9 plug ends are threaded. The XD05F caps don't appear to have a threaded brass insert. Is this correct, the spark plug cap just pushes onto the threaded portion of the sparkplug?
When you upgrade the caps and plugs, is it worth swapping out the wires and the other ends of the plug wires that fit up under the fuel tank? If so, what are you using for new wires and the other ends of the wires?
Thanks
James
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XD05F cap accepts Threaded Stud
(https://i.ibb.co/QcjB1RH/image.png) (https://ibb.co/QcjB1RH)
This is CPR8EA-9 which has thread stud
(https://i.ibb.co/nL8nNrj/image.png) (https://ibb.co/nL8nNrj)
XD05F cap will just snap on to the CPR8EA-9
You will feel that click. It is quite subtle tho but def its there.
CPR8EB-9 is the stock plug which has a solid terminal
(https://i.ibb.co/12dsKXM/image.png) (https://ibb.co/12dsKXM)
I didn't swap out the wire. Some people did but mostly from what I know are just purely cosmetics.
Hopefully these helps.
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XD05F cap accepts Threaded Stud
(https://i.ibb.co/QcjB1RH/image.png) (https://ibb.co/QcjB1RH)
This is CPR8EA-9 which has thread stud
(https://i.ibb.co/nL8nNrj/image.png) (https://ibb.co/nL8nNrj)
XD05F cap will just snap on to the CPR8EA-9
You will feel that click. It is quite subtle tho but def its there.
CPR8EB-9 is the stock plug which has a solid terminal
(https://i.ibb.co/12dsKXM/image.png) (https://ibb.co/12dsKXM)
I didn't swap out the wire. Some people did but mostly from what I know are just purely cosmetics.
Hopefully these helps.
Thanks very much for confirming. I've got the XD05F caps. I'll order the CPR8EA-9 threaded plugs today.
I wasn't sure if many were swapping out the plug wires and other ends or keeping them stock. I have to take my fuel tank off to swap out the voltage regulator this weekend, so figured if I was going to do the other plug ends under the tank, now was the time to do it, but wasn't sure what on the other end of the wires and if it was even worth doing it as it seems like it's the spark plug caps that tend to cause the issue and get loose over time.
Thanks
James
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for me it was the original rubber cap that had a hole and allowed the spark to gap.
My wires were not fried, but I do know one gentleman that his classic did had a fray cable.
If you are going to pull the tank, I would say inspect the cable and make sure no heat mark, no visible kink & tear.
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I'd cut 1/4" from the end of the wire, then make sure you screw them on tight. Many left the factory just pushed on.
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Yep, and you'll have to also change the plugs from CPR8EB-9 to CPR8EA-9.
Another thing to consider is that for both plugs, the "-9" indicates that they come pre-gapped at 0.9 mm. Although the Moto Guzzi owner's and service manuals state that the spark gaps should be 0.6-0.7 mm, I have found that 0.9 mm works better, on both my previous '13 V7 Stone and my current '16 V7II Stone.
V9 manual shows the same
Puzzled me for a while but I decided that since the NGK code allows for specific gaps, that must be what is required and the
0.6/0.7 is a typo
If MG wanted 0.6/0.7 they could have specified one and I'm darn sure that MGs engine builders are NOT regapping every plug they fit
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V9 manual shows the same
Puzzled me for a while but I decided that since the NGK code allows for specific gaps, that must be what is required and the
0.6/0.7 is a typo
If MG wanted 0.6/0.7 they could have specified one and I'm darn sure that MGs engine builders are NOT re-gapping every plug they fit
For laughs and giggle, I just looked up the V7 classic & Breva spark plug gap, BR8ES has 0.8mm gap
But FWIW, I gapped to 0.9mm and worked fine before I sold it.