Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Triple Jim on July 31, 2016, 11:25:33 AM
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I'm sure some of you have already seen this, but it's a good demonstration of how good leather is for protection if you find yourself on the pavement:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKLYrG7_oYk
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I wonder how the synthetic stuff would hold up comparatively under the same test.
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I think he was enjoying that run!
That was some pretty fresh looking asphalt. Sort of like racetrack conditions. Pretty slow speed, too. How would it look after being dragged down a chip sealed, frost heaved, potholed road here in Minnesota at 60mph? And it was probably not your garden variety leather/construction specification like you find in most motorcycle shops. And it was form-fitted. I'd like to see him do the same test with a Chinese-made $200 leather motorcycle jacket with matching pants. Make it interesting- chaps over Levis, not full leather pants!
Steve.
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it looks like an easy test you guys could perform yourselves! :evil:
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He was just giving it that break-in look. Kinda like chicken strips.
Dean
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Steve, I've crashed three times in my leather pants and jacket on the supermoto track. Its surface is not very different from typical asphalt roads. It's a tight track, and I wasn't going terribly fast, maybe 30-40 in the worst case. A seam on the left arm of my jacket started to come open because the stitching got worn, and I had that repaired. Other than that, there is nothing wrong with either one, other than some surface scuffing.
The jacket is a Joe Rocket, and is a general purpose riding jacket with armor in the shoulders and elbows. The pants are AGV Sport (around $200), and made for track use. They're perforated so they're amazingly cool in the summer, and can be zipped to the jacket. In my experience, it would be very hard to beat the leather for abrasion resistance on whatever road surface you choose. If it wore through on a rough road surface, I suspect other materials would have already worn through too.
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I wonder how the synthetic stuff would hold up comparatively under the same test.
FWIW, Dorcia and I slid about 50-60 feet on chip and seal in textile riding gear. My only injury was where a knuckle burned through some Elkskin Ropers. Naturally, the gear was trashed, but the armor stayed put. That's good enough for me, and I now wear gloves with hard knuckle protection. :smiley:
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...and I now wear gloves with hard knuckle protection. :smiley:
Good point. I do too, after one crash I had while wearing some nice leather gloves that have heavy padding at the knuckles. Two years later, I still have a bump on a knuckle that got banged.
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FWIW, Dorcia and I slid about 50-60 feet on chip and seal in textile riding gear. My only injury was where a knuckle burned through some Elkskin Ropers. Naturally, the gear was trashed, but the armor stayed put. That's good enough for me, and I now wear gloves with hard knuckle protection. :smiley:
Thanks Chuck , good to know, and glad you both came away ok. Maybe I'll think about retiring my cotton shorts and tee shirts for street riding. :shocked:
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Thanks Chuck , good to know, and glad you both came away ok. Maybe I'll think about retiring my cotton shorts and tee shirts for street riding. :shocked:
:smiley: One time I was hit on the leg by a blown semi tire. My lower leg went numb immediately, and my first thought was, "Ooh, I wish I was wearing some flip flops instead of these Sidi On Roads.." :smiley: Fortunately, that has been my only encounter with a rubber gator.
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I think he was enjoying that run!
That was some pretty fresh looking asphalt. Sort of like racetrack conditions. Pretty slow speed, too. How would it look after being dragged down a chip sealed, frost heaved, potholed road here in Minnesota at 60mph? And it was probably not your garden variety leather/construction specification like you find in most motorcycle shops. And it was form-fitted. I'd like to see him do the same test with a Chinese-made $200 leather motorcycle jacket with matching pants. Make it interesting- chaps over Levis, not full leather pants!
Steve.
Is a Pakistan $200 motorcycle jacket and pants better?
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Back in Washington right after St Helens blew up, I crashed low side at about 60 MPH when my wheels lost
traction on some unseen volcano dust in a right hander. Other than bruises and contusions I survived in good condition thanks to my helmet ( which was totally destroyed) and a custom made heavy horse hide jacket I had bought the year before. Both sleeves were shredded and had to be replaced. Both gloves were shredded,
and the toes of my boots were ground down to the steel toes. The back of the jacket was abraded but still servicable. I had no broken bones, I was really tough when I was that age.
Horse hide makes the toughest leather jackets of any I have found. It can be very thick yet still be flexible.
I think I paid 300 dollars for that jacket in 1979 and 100 to have new sleeves put on. I never regretted the expense even though It was more than half a months pay back then.
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There is an age factor with leather...
There are two different kinds of stitching that is used... A monofilament nylon style and cotton... The Monofilament is stronger but under stress it tends to tear through the leather puncture (stitching hole) and the leather unzips exposing you underneath. Cotton, on the other hand, is just as strong and yet, does not tend to tear through the stitching hole. HOWEVER!!!! Cotton does loose it's strength over time. it "rots" and therefore after five or so years, it too will fail and open up the seams exposing your skin to the pavement. It is a trade off, but clearly newer cotton sewn leathers are the best protection.
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Leather is good - but all the evidence I've seen says good textile is better. Both need armor underneath; the Euro spec stuff is best, but any is better than none.
Most textile is sewn with overlock stitching, which is not very susceptible to the zipper effect. A lot of modern textile gear is woven with Kevlar or other high-strength material to improve both impact and abrasion resistance. So far, there are no Kevlar Kows. :wink:
In any case, it's more important to have the 'ATG' in ATTGATT (All The Gear) than what it is made of - road conditions and specific situations might show one or another type as better in that case, but they're all of them better than not wearing proper riding gear.
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These days any GOOD leather or textile gear is well made and won't come apart at the seams and it's a matter of personal preference and convenience for road riding. Good leathers have internal stitching then two rows of top stitching which will hold the garment together even if the top stitching fails. I've never heard of the "zipper effect" actually happening. Nylon bonded cotton is used for stitching which prevents any rotting.
I own both leather and textile stuff but prefer the leather (often with waterproofs) in our UK climate. In a hotter climate things would be different. From experience I would say that leather lasts longer and is more easily repaired. A damaged textile jacket pretty much has to be thrown away after a slide.
The important thing is to wear the stuff with good boots and gloves (voice of experience!).
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Leather is good - but all the evidence I've seen says good textile is better.
I'm very surprised at this statement. Might you point me in the direction of some evidence for my own education. Because if that's what you've found things have changed since I last researched it.
I seem to remember (and this could very well be out of date) that in the case of high quality MC specific leather vs. the same in textiles, that the textiles were generally suggesting they were as good or almost as good as the leather.
Was it Aerostich who used to give data based on a weighted drag test behind a pickup or something like that? And I feel like at least one of the major magazines has done that over the years.
Then again, looking at manufacturers like Klim makes me think that my data is old and that there is newer and better stuff out there.
All that said, though I like the visceral feel of leather, I abandoned it for riding back in the 90s when I discovered Aerostich and these days I really like mesh gear for summer. Though I still assume both are not quite as protective as leathers.
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Tiberio's law of Motorcycle Gear: no one ever died from road rash, they just wish they were dead...
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Leather is good - but all the evidence I've seen says good textile is better. Both need armor underneath; the Euro spec stuff is best, but any is better than none.
This german test says, that leather is better than textile - when you crash...
http://www.motorradonline.de/kombis/lederkombis-gegen-textilkombis-im-crashtest-motorradkombis-im-test/714426?seite=2
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Too damn hot. Either not ride or be in mesh in Houston this time of year. Also put the big boots away: roasting feet.
Leather comes back out sometime mid-October.
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Tiberio's law of Motorcycle Gear: no one ever died from road rash, they just wish they were dead...
:grin: :grin: :thumb:
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Tiberio's law of Motorcycle Gear: no one ever died from road rash, they just wish they were dead...
I know about this firsthand. Nothing rips a pair of jeans and a t-shirt off ya like crashing at 60 mph..... and I still ride (sometimes) in jeans and a t-shirt.
Slow learner, I guess.
I love the cooler (and cold) weather when I can armor-up.
:bike-037:
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I seem to remember (and this could very well be out of date) that in the case of high quality MC specific leather vs. the same in textiles, that the textiles were generally suggesting they were as good or almost as good as the leather.
I think Motoport had some test data they liked that showed better results with textile, but ... two points:
1. different tests, different results
2. there are good textiles and poor, there is good leather and poor.
I have a "cordura" jacket, the label says polyester, that was about as tough as denim (meaning, it's fragile.) I have heavy nylon Motoport stuff that's really strong - only lightly pavement tested, but it held up great. Leather's the same, I hear - leather deteriorates with age, including the stitching as mentioned above, and of course there are a lot of different quality cows.
My guess is that it's sort of foolish to sweat over which is better, leather or textile, when the situation is that complicated. Wear what you like, but get the good stuff and take care of it, and wear armored pants, real motorcycle boots and hand protection.
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It was Aerostich who did a test with weighted fabric towed behind a vehicle. I cannot find that info on their web site, it must be at least 15 years ago. The key point is that all this is well and good....if you actually wear the gear. Here in southern Virginia it's a challenge to gear up when it's 95F and 90% humidity (like it is right now!). My leather jacket sits unused now. It's time for a mesh jacket and Darien Light pants over shorts.
FWIW, I just finished a 3 week trip out to California and wore a one piece Roadcrafter suit the whole time. I was probably no hotter than my riding companions, as long as we were moving. A leather suit such as on the video would have been out of the question because it would simply be too hot. The Roadcrafter has large pockets in the thigh area. You can drop a large cup of ice in each pocket and get at least an hour of delightfully cool riding even when it's blistering hot. It looks like you peed in your pants but that's a small price to pay.
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All the land speed racing organizations specify only leather ...and if two piece it must be zippered together.. And all zippers must be metal and sewn on, not fused or glued...Over certain speeds, about 175 MPH, must have a back protector... Not to say fabric isn't as good...But dressed in animals hides is so cool...
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Good leather is...well...good :)
Good textiles are good.
There are poor examples of both.
FWIW, kevlar rots in direct sunlight. Cotton as well. Polyester and nylon don't care about sunlight. Polyester thread is what I use for stitching my motorcycle seats (marine grade vinyl).
Many people have crashed in stich stuff with not much wear to show for it. One of the IBA riders last IBR crashed on the freeway the day before the event started. His stich suit had a pocket with a small tear. You could see some marks on it only if you looked carefully.
OTOH, ask JB what he has been wearing when he crashed. I liked his thread on the last one, leaving bloody sheets in the motel room :)
Me? I wear textile. I gave away my last two leather jackets. I know what I wear may only protect me from one slide, but, that's all I need it for.
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Meanwhile I still ride with no helmet, tennis shoes, tanktop, cargo shorts, no gloves.
Oh, I do wear skivies and socks too.
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Crash protection isn't the only reason to wear good gear. I have a good set of leathers and a good set of textile. I brought the textile on my trip because it's an either/or storage issue, and textile is the better heavy weather gear -- warm and waterproof. I have to be prepared for all climates when I travel. When I am making a shorter trip or on daily rides I prefer my leather, weather permitting. It moves better. The weight of good leather and good textile are about the same -- way heavy.