Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Motosan on August 12, 2016, 12:58:02 PM
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Just checking if anyone has a good resource on hydraulic clutch conversion for a tonti frame? I'm bored and tempted to convert my SP1000 as the new clutch is SO heavy, especially in the city traffic I'm cursed with. In the threads here I see people have used the MG Cycle slave kit or the Magura jack kit but perhaps there's more options out there. If you have any good resources or suggestions let me know.
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I've wondered if there was a way to adapt a diaphragm spring like on the Commando. I have mine set so it's a one finger pull.
Or if there's a way to get better leverage on the Guzzi.
But it seems like dropping a couple hundred on the hydraulics still may be the easiest.
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mgcycle have a hydraulic slave, I used that with a used clutch master from a modern bike
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I've wondered the same. For instance if the Easy Pull clutch adapter benchmark works makes for airheads could be used.
I've wondered if there was a way to adapt a diaphragm spring like on the Commando. I have mine set so it's a one finger pull.
Or if there's a way to get better leverage on the Guzzi.
But it seems like dropping a couple hundred on the hydraulics still may be the easiest.
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You can use the lever assy from a later bike such as the Mille or it's close relatives. They have a much easier pull.
Have you replaced the cable lately? Worn cables are hard on the hands.
Hunter
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I am just modifying this to fit my Centauro now so the fast idle lever is in the normal position.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PBR-Mecdraulic-Typ-60-MOTO-GUZZI-/151924387826?hash=item235f662ff2
On my SPIII I have a Magura setup which I purchased from Venhill in the UK which is very similar, more expensive and uses mineral oil instead of brake fluid. It is fantastic in operation, I've done 35000km's with it without issue but it is a PITA to bleed.
FWIW, the hydraulic is much easier on the hand in city riding, the slave cylinders for both types look like they were made in the same factory but with a different finish on the metal.
Adam
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I used a Ducati 916 clutch M/C with the MG Cycle slave on my Jackal. it was one-finger light.
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Seems like Magura is a good way to go since it's a complete system and you order the slave cylinder size you need. There's some good videos for setting them up as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwyzJ_2uPuw
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Seems like Magura is a good way to go since it's a complete system and you order the slave cylinder size you need. There's some good videos for setting them up as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwyzJ_2uPuw
I would be great to hear from someone who has install this kit.
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Doesn't Magura use mineral oil instead of DOT-whatever?
I'm asking because there are folks with hydraulic clutches on their guzzis that have had odd fluid-related problems. If I was thinking about converting, I'd try whichever fluid they're not using.
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(http://radicalguzzi.com/img/7805851376615465a_7DL2258.JPG)
http://radicalguzzi.com/motor_getriebe (http://radicalguzzi.com/motor_getriebe)
The folks at Radical Guzzi continue to offer a very nice option that neatly plugs into the back of the trans and deletes all the movable parts. Mgcycle used to sell these back when this guy's father made them when it was called Moto Spezial. Prices now are much more reasonable.
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I'm using a Frando set up on my lemans 3 and it works a treat. It is Korean made and excellent quality. I've added a link to the supplier who ships world wide and takes payment in US dollars.
Venhill in the UK are agents but more expensive. Frando also do a radial master cylinder to suit. You will need to source a braded lines and fittings to make it work on your bike
http://japan.webike.net/products/21851004.html
Regards Tony
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I like that Frando has a radial master cylinder for a reasonable price but how would one know what to order? Magura is nice because you get a complete setup.
I'm using a Frando set up on my lemans 3 and it works a treat. It is Korean made and excellent quality. I've added a link to the supplier who ships world wide and takes payment in US dollars.
Venhill in the UK are agents but more expensive. Frando also do a radial master cylinder to suit. You will need to source a braded lines and fittings to make it work on your bike
http://japan.webike.net/products/21851004.html
Regards Tony
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Doesn't Magura use mineral oil instead of DOT-whatever?
See my original post :cheesy:
I would be great to hear from someone who has install this kit.
See my original post :wink:
I am just modifying this to fit my Centauro now so the fast idle lever is in the normal position.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PBR-Mecdraulic-Typ-60-MOTO-GUZZI-/151924387826?hash=item235f662ff2
On my SPIII I have a Magura setup which I purchased from Venhill in the UK which is very similar, more expensive and uses mineral oil instead of brake fluid. It is fantastic in operation, I've done 35000km's with it without issue but it is a PITA to bleed.
FWIW, the hydraulic is much easier on the hand in city riding, the slave cylinders for both types look like they were made in the same factory but with a different finish on the metal.
Adam
Check the PBR kit in my original post,it is complete :Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu
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I am just modifying this to fit my Centauro now so the fast idle lever is in the normal position.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PBR-Mecdraulic-Typ-60-MOTO-GUZZI-/151924387826?hash=item235f662ff2
On my SPIII I have a Magura setup which I purchased from Venhill in the UK which is very similar, more expensive and uses mineral oil instead of brake fluid. It is fantastic in operation, I've done 35000km's with it without issue but it is a PITA to bleed.
FWIW, the hydraulic is much easier on the hand in city riding, the slave cylinders for both types look like they were made in the same factory but with a different finish on the metal.
Adam
There are a bunch of variables with the Magura clutch kit. Do you recall the details of your setup or part number? Or did you just tell them "big Guzzi"? Do you have photos? Was it as simple to install as the videos make it out to be?
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The items below are directly from my invoice from Venhill minus prices. I bought it in March 2013 and the Master cylinder was being phased out. It has a decomp lever on it which I use as the choke on the SPIII. Price was then £330. Expensive!
I am extremely happy with it and it's performance. I ride year round in filthy conditions in winter, city stop & go and am a daily commuter, no corrosion, no leaks, no fuss except for bleeding it and needing the 'Blood Oil'.
In my opinion you would be best served with the PBR kit from the e-bay link, the slave is the same part but with a different finish, the master is a regular Brembo item (i.e. service parts are easy to find) and it uses DOT brake fluid. Mine will be fitted in the coming weeks.
I'll get some pics tomorrow of the Magura.
MISC. FITING 0120576 163 M/CYLINDER
3H1350-CL 1350mm CLEAR HOSE - 1/8 BSP SWIVEL NUTS
3/60100AC MALE ADAPTOR 10x1 X 1/8 BSP CHROME
3/60061C M6 STRAIGHT BANJO CHROME
0430224 HYMEC FLANGED SLEEVE FOR SLAVE
0412310 HYMEC 9/8mm SLOTTED BARREL NIPPLE 724.12
0722152 HYMEC SERVICE/BLEED KIT
0722136 HYMEC HOLLOW SCREW WITH BLEED NIPPLE
0120652 HYMEC SLAVE CYLINDER
Good luck!
Adam
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I don't know squat about the hydraulic set up for your particular bike. I've done a little research for for my Quota. It's one of those solutions in search of a problem. Guzzi makes a slave cylinder ready to go plus a clutch master cylinder. Say you you don't want spend $250-$300 for a MG based solution. PIT bike setups on EBAY runs around $32.00-$49.00 dollars+/- They are ready to go. Some come with mirror mounts some don't. The hose lines appear to be either 900mm or 1200mm. Lot's of older Japanese bike redo's are running this setup. It's just an idea.
an example http://www.ebay.com/itm/1200mm-Hydraulic-Clutch-Lever-Master-Cylinder-125-250cc-Dirt-Pit-Bike-Motorcycle-/111958213590?var=&hash=item1a113ac3d6:m:mv2lrGBClEruLPcsxn8 M9Zg&vxp=mtr
Good luck,
Les
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Just in case someone decides to go with the magura setup....My son's KTM RC 8 has a magura master cylinder for the clutch. I use the same aviation mineral oil based hydraulic fluid that I use in my converts fluid drive system. ( as Rodekyll recommended) It works great and is WAY cheaper than the magura "blood" as they call it. They do seem to require bleeding about every couple of months to eliminate air bubbles,that develop with usage. I have read on KTM forums that that is just the nature of the beast.
Rick.
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I don't know squat about the hydraulic set up for your particular bike. I've done a little research for for my Quota. It's one of those solutions in search of a problem. Guzzi makes a slave cylinder ready to go plus a clutch master cylinder. Say you you don't want spend $250-$300 for a MG based solution. PIT bike setups on EBAY runs around $32.00-$49.00 dollars+/- They are ready to go. Some come with mirror mounts some don't. The hose lines appear to be either 900mm or 1200mm. Lot's of older Japanese bike redo's are running this setup. It's just an idea.
an example http://www.ebay.com/itm/1200mm-Hydraulic-Clutch-Lever-Master-Cylinder-125-250cc-Dirt-Pit-Bike-Motorcycle-/111958213590?var=&hash=item1a113ac3d6:m:mv2lrGBClEruLPcsxn8 M9Zg&vxp=mtr
Good luck,
Les
Will those little systems have enough oomph for the Guzzi clutch? Is 1200mm going to be long enough?
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The Hose is the question. Custom "Ebay"hose can be had reasonable. I'm not here to claim cheapness over quality is the way to go. I've seen slave cylinders in the less than $15 range. It's just a cheap option.
Speedway racing has slave cylinders for $34.99 that require some modification. As I stated earlier MG has everything almost bolt on through the miracle of money. The only thing stopping me is a Harley buddy. He does doesn't think an Hydraulic Clutch on a Quota is an "enhancement". The clutch action my bike is super easy. I looked at a bunch of XS650, Honda and Sportster hydraulic clutch setups. All these bikes had one thing in common. They all had different handelbars setups from stock. They went this way instead of a custom clutch cable. Bang Good is a nother source of pit bike hydraulic clutches.
Best regards,
Les
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Ran the set up from MG Cycle using the recommended Brembo 13mm left hand master connected with the suggested brake line kit for about seven years on my wife's 93' Cal III. When I bought it Stine Dense was selling it but the MG unit is the same one that they were selling. She needed an easier clutch pull due to carpal tunnel surgery. Not a big deal to install and a very solid reliable set up used in all kinds of weather with out issues. When she was diagnosed with cancer and became unable to keep riding a the Cal I pulled the system and sold it to a dude in Australia on E-bay. Refit the original clutch set up and rode the Cal III myself until I replaced it with my present Stelvio. If you want a straight forward hydro clutch set up that's durable and easy to live with I would recommend the one from MG.
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If you want a straight forward hydro clutch set up that's durable and easy to live with I would recommend the one from MG.
These are Guzzi owners, I don't think they know about the easy way. :smiley:
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Anyone do a hydraulic conversion on a 750ie Breva. My wife needs an easier clutch pull.
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I know several KTM single owners who have fitted Frando radial MC's and clutch slave cylinders to their bikes with good success. Available easily from Japan WebBike, who take USD payment and ship expeditiously. Frando, incidentally, is not Korean but Taiwanese. Very good quality for a reasonable price.
Hydraulic lines for a clutch should not be a problem. MG Cycle carries the Magnum line of BYO hoses and fittings, while Revival Cycle in Austin has the Goodridge line of BYO hoses and fittings. I built all the brake lines for my V50 at home with Magnum components, and they are flawless. Besides being less expensive than pre-made hoses, BYO has the advantage of being able to get the exact length and configuration you want.
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I thought I'd revive this old thread before I call MG cycle and order their setup. My 2001 EV is 15 1/2 LBS. all lubed up and a good cable. the old hand can't handle it anymore. It's in Az with few tools and little patience to jury rig. Anyone have something better to look at first?
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I used the slave from MG Cycle and a 13 mm (I think) Brembo MC. I made the hydraulic line, using Magnum build-it-yourself hose and fittings (0 deg for slave, 35 deg for MC). A banjo with a bleeder makes bleeding easy. Very happy I did this.
Rich A
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can you tell me how much it reduced the effort?
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can you tell me how much it reduced the effort?
I just checked it with a (probably not very accurate) fishing scale. It's cold out, around freezing. The hydraulic clutch showed about 11-12 lbs, measured just inward of the knob on the clutch lever. The stock clutch on my Bassa that's being parted out and has been sitting for a couple of years showed about 15 to 17 lbs.
The clutch on my V7III read about 10-11 lbs, but it has a Pazzo short lever.
Rich
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I bought the whole setup from MG cycle. Great folks to deal with and fast service. This is what it looks like and IF it is truly letting the clutch fully engage and disengage, WOW! better than I had hoped for. the old unit was basically 16 LBS this is basically 4-11 LBS. It's hard to say as there is virtually no pressure then it goes up to maybe 11 then drops to 4 when fully held in.
The concern is the tiny nylon lock nut that holds the barrel into the back of the clutch lever has no threads left out the back. it looks like it seemingly needs a longer shaft to let it fully engage. turn it in a few turns and it slips. because of the hydraulic tension even at rest, there is no free play like on a cable unit. real test ride tomorrow.
06222839 Brembo steel banjo bolt 1.0 x 10mm, silver N
finish
2.00 4.51 9.02
10467014 Brembo 13mm left hydraulic clutch master N
cylinder, black lever
1.00 113.71 113.71
14023760 valve cover gasket square fin big twins N 2.00 2.42 4.84
17412461 clear Magnum BYO brake hose, 6 foot section N 1.00 22.46 22.46
17420298 Magnum BYO brake banjo fitting 180 degrees, N
straight
1.00 15.26 15.26
17420299 Magnum BYO brake banjo fitting 35 degrees N 1.00 15.26 15.26
25656100 10mm copper sealing washer, brake hose N
applications
4.00 1.52 6.08
MG5050 Hydraulic clutch assembly, slave cylinder N
without pump
1.00 125.49 125.49
Balance: 0.00
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Total: 331.07
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(https://i.ibb.co/4YLZbxV/thumbnail-IMG-1085.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4YLZbxV)
(https://i.ibb.co/dL5MWWC/thumbnail-IMG-1086.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dL5MWWC)
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I have two early tonti's with this setup. A 1975 T and a 1980 SP 1000.
I set up the T originally with the same components Vagrant is using about three years ago and the threaded rod that the barrel fits on is definitely longer than the model I purchased last year when I decided to set the SP up with the "wrist Relief Clutch Springs", AND the hydraulic set up.(The SP now has a clutch pull that is almost as light as my Milano).
The early version worked fine on my T and after installing the lighter springs (along with a new SD tech 4mm clutch upgrade) on the SP I felt the SP was still too much effort for the rather severe arthritis in my left thumb and so I pulled the early unit off the T and installed it in the SP. The longer threaded rod required an adjustment to the arm at the back of the transmission otherwise it foul against the brake pivot on the SP. The 850T has a rear drum and a completely different brake pivot system. So perhaps that is why the newer slave cylinders have less threads and a shorter overall length.
When I finally got around to replacing the hydraulic set up on the T, I also had trouble with getting enough threads without some clutch slippage and it required an adjustment at the clutch arm to find the correct combination.
These are somewhat self adjusting units and both of mine will adjust to zero clearance as far as I can tell so I have no Idea if there is some slight pressure on the throwout bearing or not and that does leave a small concern in my mind but only time will tell as I do not use either of these two for my everyday driver.
For those who question why anyone would go through the trouble of doing this, in my case I wouldn't be able to ride in stop and go traffic without this modification due to my arthritis.
The current setup on the 850T
(https://i.ibb.co/HhJr2dn/IMG-2776.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HhJr2dn)
and the SP
(https://i.ibb.co/YWs8Gpn/IMG-2773.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YWs8Gpn)
P.S> A little adjustment at the clutch arm goes a long way.
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I haven't stumbled out to look yet but as I recall the screw and lock nut at transmission is almost all the way in. I did 160 miles yesterday and the pull is wonderful! With the slave rod threads flush with the back of the lock nut it isn't fully releasing and neutral is impossible to find but no slipping. I turned the nut 1/44 turn in and it's slightly better I will try 1/4 more next time. It impossible to tell if there is any freeplay in the clutch arm though.
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I would recommend being certain that the slave is set up in a manner that assures you are using the full extension of the rod,
I would remove the nut and barrel then remove the slave from the mount. Making sure you have room in the master cylinder for fluid expansion, put the barrel and nut on the slave shaft and pull on the barrel until you have the full extension of the slave cylinder rod. If the rod was not in the full extension setting when you installed it then it is almost certain to push fluid back into the master cylinder. Without touching the clutch lever reinstall the slave cylinder and then adjust the arm at the transmission as close to zero clearance as you can with the barrel in this fully extended position, I believe this will give the best range of engagement that you can achieve with this combination of master cylinder/slave.
I believe I have 13/64" or about 3/16" total movement of the piston in the slave measured with a 6" metal scale in the slave open end.
As an aside I have since tried a 14mm Nissin axial master cylinder on the T and now have 3/8" total piston travel but I am not happy with the extra effort at the clutch lever and will probably try another approach this summer.
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I did that when I installed it and saw the shaft wasn't long enough. Wasn't smart enough to cover the full MC. Big explosion! The joys of learning! Last night I went to look up underneath to see if I could tell if there was free play. I saw the return spring hanging out at a 45-degree angle. How it didn't fall out on that 160-mile ride I don't know. I pulled the nut, flat washer, and barrel off and reinserted it. When I went to put it back together I realized if I left the flat washer off and put the lock nut on backward it would seat deeper into the radius in the barrel so I did it that way. It now completely releases the clutch plate and looks to work properly. test ride in 1 hour.
I have only 1/4" travel in the rod. I have set it to let me find neutral at a light. I hope it is fully engaged while running but I have doubts.
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Final comment, I realised there was a bit of freeplay at the hand lever like the normal freeplay on a V7. I turned the screw in 1/2 turn on the MC and that gave it just a tiny bit more travel and I am now very pleased with the setup. $ well spent for an old cripple.
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I put a aftermarket BMW kit on my daughters R60/6 about 20 years ago.
Worked great. I think the kit was made by Brown ?
No hydraulic anything. Was i block and tackle setup made the effort 1/2 of what it was.
Maybe someone here can add additional info.
TOMB
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Why would an hydraulic conversion in itself make a heavy clutch action lighter? Its a simple mechanical ration whichever way you look at it. Less friction than a cable system?
There's nothing intrinsically wrong with a cable system esp with modern lined cables its just a matter of ratios. Can you not simple lengthen the actuating arm to reduce the the effort at the bar and still maintain adequate throw of course?
Of course there is also the possibility of fitting a universally available quick shifter which you use on the up shifts which reduces by around 50% the need to actuate the clutch. Believe me it makes a difference on the wrist only using the clutch half the time when riding. Even on the non QS bikes I only use the clutch on my bikes for moving off and the upshifts from first to second and the down shifts unless I'm bumbling around town or in traffic.
Ciao
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Well hydraulics and electrics are a mystery to me. In other words I don't know or care! I just know I can ride the EV again painlessly.